Pure GPS device vs a Smart Phone

[+burzum793]

Hello,

 

I'm doing geocaching with my girl friend and she has a HTC Desire HD smart phone with an AGPS receiver integrated. The accuracy is under good conditions around ~5-10m and also in more or less dense wood it works still pretty well.

 

Even the fact im workin in the IT industrie doesnt make me like smart phones and by this I just own an iPhone G3 I've got from my company. The iPhone surprisingly the hype everyone makes around apple products sucks hard when it comes to GPS. It has an accuarcy of 2km (!) down to a minimum of 47m under the best conditions, open area blue sky. I expected something else from such a hyped and expensive product.

 

I've also tested an older GPS device from a friend, a Meridian Magelan, that was also not very accurate, even under good conditions. Afair it was between 400 and 60 meters depending on the conditions, but I've been in the wood while using it.

 

After these experiences I've checked some up to date GPS devices from 80-550 Euro. I've been surprised that a pure GPS device, with similar hardware and abilities of a smartphone - except that it is not a phone - is so dadgum expensive. And it even looks like you have to deal with proprietary hard and software. I suspect these products to be a pain in the rear when it comes to loading maps to these devices compared to an android device and the c:geo app. Also I can write my own android app or extend c:geo if i want if needed.

 

I'm really at the point where i consider to buy an HTC Desire HD or similar android device because its cheaper (~330 euro) than most "better" GPS devices - has the same or even better accuarcy - and can do a lot more than "just" dealing with GPS. It would also replace my iPhone by this.

 

Can anyone please explain me any good reasons why I should buy a device for a few hundred euro that can just do GPS stuff, is very likely not as good to use a c:geo instead of a smart phone? Well, battery time might be an argument ~4 vs 16h, but this is not an issue because I can buy a 2nd battery. So battery time is the only argument for a dedicated GPS device instead of a smart phone.

 

Any opinions on that from people who have more experience with GPS devices? Is there maybe also a solution with an external GPS antenna that can be connected to the android device and has its own battery?

Edited August 22, 2011 by burzum793

[+michaelnel]

I use an HTC Inspire 4G (same hardware as the HTC Desire HD) with an external bluetooth gps, a Qstarz BT-Q818XT. It's a tiny thing you can put in your pocket or backpack or even your hat, and it stays linked to the phone very reliably. It consistently gives me 2-4 meter accuracy, and it's better under dense tree cover than any dedicated GPS I have owned (I have owned 16 now from Garmin, Magellan, and Delorme). The Qstarz unit is rated for up to 42 hours operation on a single charge, and it charges through a USB mini port.

 

For all-day caching trips I use an external 4800mAh battery pack that will either recharge my phone 4 times or often I just connect a USB cable and run it off the battery pack in the field, and it's good for probably 16-18 hours. I also keep the phone in an Otterbox Defender case, so it's at least as rugged as a dedicated GPS (although not waterproof). You can recharge the battery pack from your car too.

 

The only downside for me is readability of the display in bright sunlight. In my setup I run the display on full backlight brightness (normally a no-no due to battery consumption, that gorgeous big 4.3" display uses a lot of power) and it's not an issue with the external battery pack.

 

I am delighted with the whole setup, much more so than any dedicated GPS that is available today.

Edited August 22, 2011 by michaelnel

[+ventura_kids]

We love to use cgeo on an android phone....however.... when we are down in a canyon out in the desert, the phone doesn't respond well. The accuracy is bad, and the unit hangs. We usually just give up and use the Garmin 62S gps.

In the city, the phone works great....however....sometimes it is off by hundreds of feet, so we use the Garmin 62S as a primary unit, and the phone as a fun toy. After a couple caches, the phone seems to become quite accurate...just not in the first one or two caches.

If you are not frustrated by delays...then the phone will work fine.

Also... each phone has its own accuracy...the old droid X worked great...the new droid X2 is lousy.

[+michaelnel]

Keep in mind that with an external bluetooth GPS setup like mine, the accuracy and sensitivity of the phone's internal GPS are irrelevant, as is the major battery power consumption of the internal GPS chip. You turn the internal one off and the bluetooth GPS substitutes for it in every way.

[+Bear and Ragged]

Drop your phone, or knock it on a hard surface...

Use your phone when it's raining, or in wet conditions...

 

A handheld GPS is made for such conditions and will take a few knocks.

Most use standard AA batteries and last several hours, rather than the couple of hours a phone battery will.

 

If I'm out for the day, I know which I would prefer!

(But I'd still take a phone with me!)

[+michaelnel]

Drop your phone, or knock it on a hard surface...

 

An Otterbox Defender case covers that just fine. See this for an example:

 

 

Try throwing your "rugged" GPS even 10 feet.

 

Use your phone when it's raining, or in wet conditions...

 

The Otterbox would certainly provide enough protection for raindrops, but just in case I carry a sandwich-sized Ziplock baggie.

 

A handheld GPS is made for such conditions and will take a few knocks.

 

Yep, they're likely to survive some rather gentle mistreatment.

 

Most use standard AA batteries and last several hours, rather than the couple of hours a phone battery will.

 

External battery packs recharge the phones very easily in the field:

 

http://www.kevikev.com/Yoobao-4800mah-Journey-Portable-USB-Power-Bank-YB-602.htm

 

If I'm out for the day, I know which I would prefer!

(But I'd still take a phone with me!)

 

I'd have the phone with me anyway even if I were using a dedicated handheld GPSR, the difference is that now I don't have to have the GPSR and get superior performance out of my rig.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

We love to use cgeo on an android phone....however.... when we are down in a canyon out in the desert, the phone doesn't respond well. The accuracy is bad, and the unit hangs. We usually just give up and use the Garmin 62S gps.

In the city, the phone works great....however....sometimes it is off by hundreds of feet, so we use the Garmin 62S as a primary unit, and the phone as a fun toy. After a couple caches, the phone seems to become quite accurate...just not in the first one or two caches.

If you are not frustrated by delays...then the phone will work fine.

Also... each phone has its own accuracy...the old droid X worked great...the new droid X2 is lousy.

Exactly my experience.

 

I bought the Android Motorola ATRIX 4G phone and tried to cache with it for a couple months. It has issues.

 

So I bought a Garmin GPSMap 62st for my primary geocaching device.

[+CacheFreakTim]

I have owned every iPhone that has come out including the new iPhone 4. The 4 has a significantly better GPS than the 3G, or 3GS. I find it to be very on par with my Oregon 450. As far as accuracy I wouldn't say you are going to get any more accurate with a stand alone unit. The advantages to moving to a stand alone GPS unit are additional GPS features, battery life, and the fact that they are much more rugged than cell phones.

 

The one pain some people run into when moving from the iPhone to a stand alone unit is you will be spoiled with the "cache at anytime" ability of the iPhone. With a stand alone unit you have to load it with caches before you leave the house, and log them when you come home instead of on the go. If you can deal with this it might make your decision easier.

[+burzum793]

Thanks for the replies.

 

@Bear and Ragged

No, I disagree here, if you don't buy one of the better GPS devices it's not much better than when you throw your phone on the ground. I agree about the battery life but I've already pointed that out in my initial posting.

 

@CacheFreakTim

I'm not going to buy a over hyped and horrible expensive iPhone4 when I can get a better device for less than the half price. And from a developer point of view I dislike Apple even more. But the answers I've got here helped me to decide what I wanted to do anyways: I think im going to buy an android device AND a cheaper dedicated GPS device. By this I get a new phone (haha) the c:geo software I like and a dedicated GPS device for areas without a mobile signal. Unlikely here in my area and most of europe I think but possible. This seems to be still a better solution to me than buying a dedicated GPS device for 300-580,- euro and I'll get the best of both worlds. I might see if I can get a used Garmin GPSMap.

[+rstickle]

I use a 60 CSx as my primary, and have used my HTC EVO 4G as a backup at times. Last weekend the 60 was sort of sending me in circles so I used the EVO and it took me straight to the cache, go figure!

[vagabond]

Drop your phone, or knock it on a hard surface...

 

An Otterbox Defender case covers that just fine. See this for an example:

 

 

Try throwing your "rugged" GPS even 10 feet.

 

Use your phone when it's raining, or in wet conditions...

 

The Otterbox would certainly provide enough protection for raindrops, but just in case I carry a sandwich-sized Ziplock baggie.

 

A handheld GPS is made for such conditions and will take a few knocks.

 

Yep, they're likely to survive some rather gentle mistreatment.

 

Most use standard AA batteries and last several hours, rather than the couple of hours a phone battery will.

 

External battery packs recharge the phones very easily in the field:

 

http://www.kevikev.com/Yoobao-4800mah-Journey-Portable-USB-Power-Bank-YB-602.htm

 

If I'm out for the day, I know which I would prefer!

(But I'd still take a phone with me!)

 

I'd have the phone with me anyway even if I were using a dedicated handheld GPSR, the difference is that now I don't have to have the GPSR and get superior performance out of my rig.

In the SF bay area

[+northernpenguin]

 

@CacheFreakTim

I'm not going to buy a over hyped and horrible expensive iPhone4 when I can get a better device for less than the half price. And from a developer point of view I dislike Apple even more. But the answers I've got here helped me to decide what I wanted to do anyways: I think im going to buy an android device AND a cheaper dedicated GPS device. By this I get a new phone (haha) the c:geo software I like and a dedicated GPS device for areas without a mobile signal. Unlikely here in my area and most of europe I think but possible. This seems to be still a better solution to me than buying a dedicated GPS device for 300-580,- euro and I'll get the best of both worlds. I might see if I can get a used Garmin GPSMap.

 

That's uncalled for. Mind you I spent last week with someone ranting about how their WebOS device was going to replace Apple .... they seem oddly quiet about that this week.

 

I have seen plenty of decent Android units out there, but as a developer I'm not keen on the platform fragmentation, or the freedom of the OEMs to swap out cheap parts instead of using the proper parts.

The cheap Android devices tend to use very crappy things like Qualcomms GPSOne chip (which, is about as useful for GPS as a compass is inside a magnetic case). So, make sure you TEST that Android device's GPS capabilities before committing to it.

 

At the end of the day, the equivalent products tend to be in around the same price range. A $500 Android device will easily compete with an iPhone 4 .... typically. A $120 Android phone is not going to come with an electronic compass and SiRF III chipset.

[+michaelnel]

I forgot to mention that the Qstarz BT-Q818XT external bluetooh gps brings something else to the table... WAAS / EGNOS support. That's how it gets < 3 meter estimated position error. I don't believe that *any* of the internal gps chips in smartphones offer that accuracy enhancement.

[+LukeTrocity]

I have had a phone with a "gps one chip" and it was as accurate as my oregon 450. I think your statement is unfounded.

[+michaelnel]

The Qualcomm website page for the GPSOne chip doesn't mention WAAS. Don't you think it would if they had such a significant accuracy enhancement feature in their chip?

 

http://www.qualcomm....location/gpsone

 

Also see: http://www.qualcomm....html?query=waas

 

It is, however, entirely possible your Oregon 450 sucked. Mine sure did... it almost NEVER got a WAAS lock.

Edited August 24, 2011 by michaelnel

[+LukeTrocity]

<br />The Qualcomm website page for the GPSOne chip doesn't mention WAAS.  Don't you think it would if they had such a significant accuracy enhancement feature in their chip?<br /><br /><a href='http://www.qualcomm.com/products-services/mobile-content-services/location/gpsone' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow'>http://www.qualcomm....location/gpsone</a><br /><br />Also see: <a href='http://www.qualcomm.com/search/index.html?query=waas' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow'>http://www.qualcomm....html?query=waas</a><br /><br />It is, however, entirely possible your Oregon 450 sucked.  Mine sure did... it almost NEVER got a WAAS lock.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

 

I doubt it does, but i know it was consistently as accurate as my 450. Caching on my droid incredible was an awesome expierence.

[+dfx]

I have had a phone with a "gps one chip" and it was as accurate as my oregon 450. I think your statement is unfounded.

I doubt it does, but i know it was consistently as accurate as my 450. Caching on my droid incredible was an awesome expierence.

 

The problem is that statements of the kind "X is as accurate as Y" are never true.

[+LukeTrocity]

I have had a phone with a "gps one chip" and it was as accurate as my oregon 450. I think your statement is unfounded.

I doubt it does, but i know it was consistently as accurate as my 450. Caching on my droid incredible was an awesome expierence.

 

The problem is that statements of the kind "X is as accurate as Y" are never true.

Elaborate please. My experiences say different.

[+dfx]

Elaborate please. My experiences say different.

 

There's not much to elaborate. If somebody says "X is as accurate as Y", then the question to follow immediately should be "how do you know?" And the answer to that would be "I don't".

 

One will always be more accurate than the other, no two units are exactly the same. The only way to know which one it is is through scientific tests. Without those, all you can go by is how accurate it "feels" to be.

[+LukeTrocity]

Elaborate please. My experiences say different.

 

There's not much to elaborate. If somebody sautes "X is as accurate as Y", then the question to follow immediately should be "how do you know?" And the answer to that would be "I don't".

 

One will always be more accurate than the other, no two units are exactly the same. The only way to know which one it is is through scientific tests. Without those, all you can go by is how accurate it "feels" to be.

I've done tests, and they were as scientific as I could make them at a consumer level. I think you have seen my posted results on one of my old threads.

[Elchteam09]

Drop your phone, or knock it on a hard surface...

Use your phone when it's raining, or in wet conditions...

 

The Krusell SEaLABox (also in other colors and an XL version) seems to be a nice cover to protect the most phones from that. At least from water (IPX7 certified); don't know about dropping it - though the hull should provide some cover, and i wouldn't bet that GPS devices are so much better there.

I don't have it yet, but hopefully soon.

 

If you don't want a hull around the phone you can get the Motorola Defy or the Xperia Active though.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Elchteam09

[+northernpenguin]

I have had a phone with a "gps one chip" and it was as accurate as my oregon 450. I think your statement is unfounded.

 

Based on the ownership of six GPSOne based devices. There's a reason I had to become proficient at qPST to get decent location locks (mainly the carriers).

 

Granted it may be a decent chip when paired with the correct antenna, and if the bloody carriers (*cough* verizon *cough* bell ) would stop crippling it then it might do better.

The carriers have way too much freedom on Windows Mobile, Blackberry, Android to mess with things like that.

 

HTC sure doesn't know what they are doing when they use GPSOne.

 

As I said above, the important thing is to research the specific model of Android device.

The chipset doesn't matter as much as the overall performance of the unit, but I expect a Galaxy S to perform better than, say, an HTC Dream.

With iPhones it's a matter of buying the newest one for best performance.

 

With Android, Windows Phone 7 you REALLY gotta watch those OEMs and make sure they are using quality hardware - that's the full solution, not just this chip here or that button there.

Blackberry .... those bloody things can get real cryptic but in general the newer models do a bit better with location services.

 

The carriers love to bork the GPS so you'll buy the Telenav branded "Navigator" product at $10/month instead. Apple doesn't let them.

Anyone who's seen the preloaded bloatware typical on an Android device knows that Google sure isn't stopping them.

[+michaelnel]

I have rooted my HTC Inspire 4G and installed a different ROM operating system, and it has zero AT&T bloatware on it.

[+northernpenguin]

I have rooted my HTC Inspire 4G and installed a different ROM operating system, and it has zero AT&T bloatware on it.

 

Yes, I understand you can do that. I also understand that's not something I want to talk someone through. I'm keeping my part of the discussion to non-rooted, non-jailbroken devices.

I can run Linux on my older Magellan GPS units if I want to.

 

Someone asking should I get a phone or a GPS is not asking should I get a phone with this bootloader, or what not. The type of person who is going to root their phone isn't the type to benefit much from the discussion in this thread.

[+michaelnel]

The rooting of the phone and the new ROM have no bearing on the geocaching performance, since I use an external bluetooth GPS and not the internal chip. Nor does the presence of bloatware have anything whatsoever to do with the geocaching performance of the device. You brought up the part about the bloatware, and I am saying there's a way around it.

 

I agree though, rooting a phone is not for the technically timid. For me though it's sure worth it. It's a much more enjoyable and better-performing device now than when it was stock.

[+northernpenguin]

The rooting of the phone and the new ROM have no bearing on the geocaching performance, since I use an external bluetooth GPS and not the internal chip. Nor does the presence of bloatware have anything whatsoever to do with the geocaching performance of the device. You brought up the part about the bloatware, and I am saying there's a way around it.

 

I agree though, rooting a phone is not for the technically timid. For me though it's sure worth it. It's a much more enjoyable and better-performing device now than when it was stock.

 

I brought up the bloatware to illustrate the point that the carriers are free to modify the OS, often detrimentally, regardless of Google's human interface guidelines or specifications. Carriers, such as Verizon, Telus, and Bell have a history of deliberately dumbing down the GPS chip to sell more subscriptions to the carrier's own GPS products. Pretty much every Qualcomm device I have ever owned I have had to go reprogram the darned things with qPST to *enable* the GPS hardware in other programs.

 

*Hopefully* they are doing that less these days but my base point was not to be "down on Android" or any other OS. My base point was that you should verify the performance of the GPS hardware before committing to the cost of the phone or the multi year contract. Most jurisdictions have a cooling off period but make it clear to the carrier that you want to use location services - particularly third party apps like Geocaching.com or Google Maps.