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CacheDrone

Business names in listings

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Hello Canada Forum,

 

"Guidelines" may indeed be subject to interpretation; the goal of a Reviewer is to publish caches that from their perspective are listed with the "spirit" of the Listing Guidelines in mind.

 

If a cache listing includes the name of a commercial entity/business and it is deemed to be in violation of the Listing Guidelines by a Reviewer, it may be actioned.

The same applies if the listing appears to contain promotional/agenda based content; it too may be actioned by a Reviewer.

 

If a Player avoids the use of any commercial/business/promotional/agenda content within their cache listing, this obviously reduces/eliminates the likelihood that such content will cause an issue.

 

Yes - the interpretation of "Guidelines" vs. "Rules" does suggest the possibility of variance from the perspective of both Player and Reviewer.

This nuance embraces the "People/Human" element of the game; it also opens the door to differences of opinion as well as agreement.

 

On occasion(!) I have actioned a cache listing and my interpretation of the Listing Guidelines has differed from that of the owner.

In such cases, I have made efforts to identify to the owner what my concerns were; many times I will indicate which area/section of the Listing Guidelines I applied to arrive at my decision.

If a Reviewer makes a decision that is deemed not to be in "good faith" in respect to the Listing Guidelines, then a Player ultimately has the option to contact Groundspeak.

 

I believe that CacheDrone has acted in "good faith" with the Listing Guidelines in mind; from my perspective as primarily a Player and secondarily a Reviewer - this is preeminent.

 

Well there you have it - my second post in the Canada forums!

 

CacheShadow

 

hello to you and thank you for taking the time to participate

 

although it may seem that this thread is full of anger towards the reviewers, i don't believe is the case, at least not as far as i am concerned

we are just trying to understand this commercial guideline, which is an extremely grey area and largely open for interpretation based of each reviewer's opinion

that is not a problem in itself, from what i know you guys and gals discuss amongst yourselves any issues that may arise

also as Jeremy has stated, they decided to have "guidelines" as opposed to "rules" because the former will allow the reviewers to use their judgement whereas the latter will require some extensive documents to outline the rules, plus there will be a need for a way to enforce them, which in the case of this game is almost impossible

 

while fully understanding and accepting the fact that since the reviewers are humans (or are they? :anibad: ) there will be discrepancies on how each interprets any set of guidelines, especially the ones that are in a grey area, i have to admit that in my experience i was faced with calls that went on the far extreme of applying those guidelines, of course there is always the route of appeals if the disagreement persists

 

your comment bellow is what is used to be before this thread was started, not anymore though, now is just cut and dry, plain "no way Jose" to have any deviation

 

If a cache listing includes the name of a commercial entity/business and it is deemed to be in violation of the Listing Guidelines by a Reviewer, it may be actioned

 

but in light of the comment above, how does the mention of a coupon to Tim Hortons for FTF or the casual mention of any other product can possibly be in violation of the guidelines?

 

I believe that CacheDrone has acted in "good faith" with the Listing Guidelines in mind; from my perspective as primarily a Player and secondarily a Reviewer - this is preeminent.

 

technically can't argue with that, he acted by following the guidelines to the letter and choosing to forgo his right to use his judgement, as it used to be the case

 

the complaint from whomever, that sparked all this, tells me that it was the drop that broke the camel's back, unfortunately now there is no room for future judgement calls and as it stands the guideline was turned into a rule, which has never been Jeremy's intention

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how does the mention of a coupon to Tim Hortons for FTF or the casual mention of any other product can possibly be in violation of the guidelines?

 

I appreciate that I am typing things people have already covered, but it seems more natural put my thoughts out in (hopefully) a single long, awkward, winding, seemingly neverending post.

 

Cache listings aren't intended to be billboards; Groundspeak provides the "Listing Service" infrastructure, and on the same "screen space" they also sell some advertising.

Commercial/business/promotional/agenda content could be seen as "free advertising" and therefore the Listing Guidelines include a provision allowing Reviewers to address this.

 

Yes, I have previously published a cache or two with $5 Tim Hortons cards included in the listing.

I have subsequently seen an increase in such listings being within close proximity (a few metres) of "the" coffee shop outlet.

 

Is that coincidence or promotional?

Do I just "act" on the ones that I estimate to be "promotional placements"?

Was the $5 Tim's card put outside the Tim's location to make the Player go in there and spend another $5?

Is it a violation of the Listing Guidelines?

How do I make that call?

What if I'm wrong? (Again....)

 

I've chosen to be more rigid in my interpretation of that Guideline.

 

"Dear Players -- To avoid possible violations of Listing Guidelines - please refrain from including commercial/business/promotional/agenda references in your cache listings".

 

People will still submit caches with such content; and I will still review them individually and kick back the ones that I feel have an issue.

I have also asked people to remove content from their listings; they have done so -- and I have published the cache.

In some cases, the removed content reappears in the cache listing; in many of these cases I disable the listings.

 

I could post a "Reviewer Note", but I can say from experience that "Reviewer Notes" are rarely noticed by the majority of Players after their cache has been published.

Reviewer Notes have given me a 20-30% success rate in communicating with a Player; the Disabling of a cache has provided an 80-90% success rate.

Yes, in these cases I'm wielding the strength vested in me by Signal to get my point across; I (as with the other Reviewers) do my best not to abuse it.

I've only goofed a few times, and in those cases I've done my best to patch things up with the Player.

 

If someone finds a cache and it is near something commercial (ice cream vendor, coffee shop, chiropractic clinic) the Player should make their own decision as to whether they choose to visit that establishment.

 

For me, the same applies to the listing of a prize for FTF.

"FTF is a coffee shop gift card" would in my mind be an adequate substitution for "FTF is a $5 Tim Horton's card".

Not only does this reduce the chance of being seen as commercial/promotional content... it also makes the "find" include a bit more of a surprise.

Admittedly, we aren't talking a "bowl you over" level of surprise in most cases... but even if you aren't a fan of Tim Horton's, nothing says you have to take the FTF prize if you don't want it.

If the whole premise of a prize for FTF is to "entice" people to rush out and find a particular cache (which I doubt is often needed) then simply saying there is something special/shiny/above and beyond inside the cache could be enough.

 

(Side note: Thinking about it, I'd rather the cache listing "process" didn't suggest that people include the cache contents in the Long Description. It seems moot after a few finds. Is there a "Feedback" item for that?)

 

I may not kick back a cache because it includes the word "Tupperware" or "Lock N Lock" -- unless it is promotional.

And whether or not it is promoting Tupperware will largely be my call as the Reviewer of that particular cache.

It's not a "Jones & Co Class I Ammo Can" or a "Dunworthy Steel Ammo Can" - it's an ammo can.

If it's borderline/unique I many another Reviewer for their opinion -- but typically, it's quite cut and dried.

Granted, I would far prefer the listing says "plastic container" to avoid the issue altogether.

Faster review process, potentially a quicker publish to the populous.

 

Parking coordinates as additional waypoints are preferable; it negates the need to say "Walgreens" when it really meant N42... W78...etc.

If AWs are not created with defined coords, then parking in the "grocery store" parking lot will likely not be an issue for the majority of Players.

 

CacheShadow (Me!) says:

"To avoid possible violations of Listing Guidelines - please refrain from including commercial/business/promotional/agenda references in your cache listings".

 

CacheDrone said:

"So, moving forward please do not include the names of businesses within listings. Not in the title, not in the text, not in the FTF prize or trade item lists."

 

I use the word "refrain" because I'm wordy; CacheDrone said "do not".

 

- If you can list your cache without using "such content" that would be great. In most cases, this shouldn't be an issue.

- If you do accidentally (or intentionally) include "such content" in your listing(s), please don't be surprised if it is tagged by a Reviewer.

- Reviewers appreciate Reviewer Notes; always give as much info as possible with your listing submission

 

We (Reviewers) are always trying to approach caches and Players fairly.

It has been getting more common for us to see commercial items in submitted cache listings.

I believe the posting by CacheDrone was intended as a "Heads Up" regarding the stiffening of the approach to the commercial/business/promotion/agenda Listing Guideline.

 

I for one find it difficult to craft a message that connects with everyone; I have a tendency to use too many words...

 

Can we draw this to a close and see how it goes?

I'd rather taste the pudding than try to illustrate the proof that is within it :D

 

CacheShadow

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Parking coordinates as additional waypoints are preferable; it negates the need to say "Walgreens" when it really meant N42... W78...etc.

If AWs are not created with defined coords, then parking in the "grocery store" parking lot will likely not be an issue for the majority of Players.

 

I do not fully agree. Additional waypoints with coordinates are of advantage mainly to those who use car navigation. If you do not, verbal descriptions

of the way to some place and not only the description where to park are often helpful. Turn left at the XYZ store is much more helpful for me as turning left at

the large store as quite often there is more than one and I am the type of person who definitely takes then the wrong turn. (The XYZ store is often already visible from some distance and then the time to suffices for me to make the correct routing decision.)

 

I cannot force anyone to describe the way to a waypoint in the way I prefer it, but still I would appreciate it if such a description is possible.

 

 

- If you can list your cache without using "such content" that would be great. In most cases, this shouldn't be an issue.

 

It can be done, but it produces in many cases much less informative cache descriptions.

 

Another example: Of course instead of saying "You might want to take the XYZ bus back from the end point of the cache to the starting point" and link to the schedule of the bus company (even worse - not only mentioning the company, but also linking to it) one just could just mention that a bus service exists and not who runs it.

Analogous examples show up for cable car services up to mountains etc

 

I started to geocache because I appreciated the wealth of information that is provided for some cache hiking tours or guided city tours when compared to guide books. Information on bus services, recommendable restaurants etc are however contained in many hiking guides and city guides. I appreciated that cache descriptions in earlier times contained more helpful and more up to date information than most books. Of course I can search for all this information on my own, but then I have no need for geocaching any longer. It's not navigating to a plastic box at a boring location with a GPS-receiver that attracts me into geocaching.

 

What I wrote above is just to argue that it is no true that omitting any sort of business names does not seriously effect the overall experience provided by a geocache. That might be true for you and maybe many others. It is not true for me.

 

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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I'm still surprised that one trouble maker could cause so many caches to get Disabled. I would have expected the reviewer(s) to trot out the "there is no precedent for placing caches" guideline and leave it at that.

 

After all, just because the ten cars ahead of me got away with speeding doesn't mean the cop will accept it as an excuse for my own speeding.

 

The rest of the knashing of teeth in the thread seems sort of pointless to me, but it was a fun read nonetheless. I don't see the need to mention the name of a business on non-event cache placements.

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I don't see the need to mention the name of a business on non-event cache placements.

 

There is no real need for event caches either. The resulting cache listings are less informative however than they could be and this causes inconveniences for many cachers.

 

If a cache description e.g. tells the cachers about cheap ways to travel back from the end point of a bicycle cache by train, it is not the business (the train company) that profits as they earn more if the cachers buy normal tickets because they do not know about the cheap variants.

 

This example is not constructed - it is taken from an existing cache.

 

Cezanne

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At the end of the day, Groundspeak is a business, and they have ads on their site. Their marketing team obviously wouldn't like it if we placed a reference to a competing brand on a cache listing.

 

If we said "use your official groupndspeak IPhone App", Do you really think it would get rejected because you said Iphone...

 

but if you said use your GARMIN gps to find it... I can see it getting rejected, as that it would provide free advertising to a company not affiliated with Groundspeak.

 

We can dress the guideline up as much as we want it, it's a marketing based decision.

 

I mean, Jeremy himself has flipfloped on decisions when revenue was at stake.

 

jeremy

Moderator

Posts: 1094

From: Bellevue, WA, USA

Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02 June 2001 07:41 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Fine.

 

I, Jeremy Irish, CEO of Grounded, Inc. will never make this a pay to play web site for Geocaching.

It is in the best interest of all players that the game remain free and the non-commercial sharing of these coordinates through the web site.

 

Not that I'm planning for anything, but in the case that there was some sort of gambling cache (who knows, weirder stuff has happened),

I suppose that would be in essence a "pay to play" cache. But the traditional game will remain purely free.

 

How's that?

 

Jeremy

 

Think premium member only caches, money talks. And this entire thing is a marketing decision.

 

If we're a group of carefree people living and geocaching then yeah, guidelines instead of rules are awesome!

 

But, this is a business, and businesses need rules, not guidelines.

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I'd rather taste the pudding than try to illustrate the proof that is within it :D

 

CacheShadow

 

Ah yes, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating" which is often misquoted.

 

Cacheshadow, did you feel like you were misquoted while in your "civies" and now decided to enter the fray with your reviewer ID? :ph34r:

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I mean, Jeremy himself has flipfloped on decisions when revenue was at stake.

 

jeremy

Moderator

Posts: 1094

From: Bellevue, WA, USA

Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02 June 2001 07:41 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Fine.

 

I, Jeremy Irish, CEO of Grounded, Inc. will never make this a pay to play web site for Geocaching.

It is in the best interest of all players that the game remain free and the non-commercial sharing of these coordinates through the web site.

 

Not that I'm planning for anything, but in the case that there was some sort of gambling cache (who knows, weirder stuff has happened),

I suppose that would be in essence a "pay to play" cache. But the traditional game will remain purely free.

 

How's that?

 

Jeremy

 

Think premium member only caches, money talks. And this entire thing is a marketing decision.

 

 

what exactly do you mean?...geocaching IS FREE, its not pay to play :blink:

 

 

Cacheshadow, did you feel like you were misquoted while in your "civies" and now decided to enter the fray with your reviewer ID? :ph34r:

 

that is how i feel too :anibad:

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Not sure how it is a flipflop on the charging to geocache, Premium Membership caches was a geocaching community request, not a money grab by Groundspeak. The core of geocaching is still free, as it was in the beginning, with a basic membership, you can list your cache or find and log caches without having to pay the site. I also don't see a need to mention or advertise a business or other entity on a cache page, I myself have been to lax on this part.

 

As for this thread, I have to put a reminder to all to adhere to the forum guidelines, no further name calling or personal attacks will be tolerated, this include those that are not participating. They have their right to report problem caches directly to a reviewer and are not to be referred to as idiot or other names. Keep things civil and this thread will remain open.

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I also don't see a need to mention or advertise a business or other entity on a cache page, I myself have been to lax on this part.

 

 

the main issue is "inconsistency" in the interpretation and enforcement of the guidelines

saying that there is a coupon for a certain store does not constitute advertising that business

 

i would also like to know why the "disable log" is now gone from my two caches that were flagged, it makes my enable log look kinda of stupid now

those things should not be removed from the cache page, apart from it being a "learning" tool for others it is also part of the "history" of the cache listing

Edited by t4e

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I also don't see a need to mention or advertise a business or other entity on a cache page, I myself have been to lax on this part.

 

the main issue is "inconsistency" in the interpretation and enforcement of the guidelines

saying that there is a coupon for a certain store does not constitute advertising that business...

 

... in your opinion. Since you're using the someone else's site and resources, though, there are certain points where flexibility of the Reviewers will govern and overrule your opinion. Submit a listing, and should it need re-work based on commercial aspects, it'll get kicked back to you to adjust. Or, if the VRs feel the content is OK, it'll get listed. That's as clear-cut an answer as you're likely to get. And that oughta be enough, truthfully.

 

I think it's awesome that you feel this strongly about something very miniscule in the grand scheme. My view has been that folks were fighting a losing battle in a "Nothing Fight" from the start, but people tend to latch on to the notion that they're entitled to certain things on the pretense that "Other people have it" or "I used to have it", and that's just simply a case of misplaced entitlement.

 

I would suggest that if you really want to bring about change, you may wish to start focusing your efforts on citing specific examples of how and why the mentioning of a business or product is imperative to a listing in any way. Nobody has done that yet, and thus, the guideline has no impetus to change to assuage the entitled.

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I would suggest that if you really want to bring about change, you may wish to start focusing your efforts on citing specific examples of how and why the mentioning of a business or product is imperative to a listing in any way. Nobody has done that yet, and thus, the guideline has no impetus to change to assuage the entitled.

I think you've got that backwards.

 

People shouldn't be required to have a good reason for mentioning something or saying something. Instead, the hosting website should have a good reason not to allow them to mention it. Quite frankly, "just because we say so" doesn't sound like a very good reason to many of us. Now on the other hand, something being promotional or commercial would be a very good reason, but you're gonna have a hard time explaining to people how saying "there's a McDonald's gift card in there" is promotional (while a cache with "Jeeps rule!" as name is not, for example). Kinda like trying to explain how a big boulder sitting next to the road is supposed to be a geocache. :anitongue: Yeah, they say it is, but that doesn't make it any more true.

Edited by dfx

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I would suggest that if you really want to bring about change, you may wish to start focusing your efforts on citing specific examples of how and why the mentioning of a business or product is imperative to a listing in any way. Nobody has done that yet, and thus, the guideline has no impetus to change to assuage the entitled.

I think you've got that backwards.

 

People shouldn't be required to have a good reason for mentioning something or saying something. Instead, the hosting website should have a good reason not to allow them to mention it. Quite frankly, "just because we say so" doesn't sound like a very good reason to many of us. Now on the other hand, something being promotional or commercial would be a very good reason, but you're gonna have a hard time explaining to people how saying "there's a McDonald's gift card in there" is promotional (while a cache with "Jeeps rule!" as name is not, for example). Kinda like trying to explain how a big boulder sitting next to the road is supposed to be a geocache. :anitongue: Yeah, they say it is, but that doesn't make it any more true.

So... that's a "No, I can't provide a specific reason" right?

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I would suggest that if you really want to bring about change, you may wish to start focusing your efforts on citing specific examples of how and why the mentioning of a business or product is imperative to a listing in any way. Nobody has done that yet, and thus, the guideline has no impetus to change to assuage the entitled.

I think you've got that backwards.

 

People shouldn't be required to have a good reason for mentioning something or saying something. Instead, the hosting website should have a good reason not to allow them to mention it. Quite frankly, "just because we say so" doesn't sound like a very good reason to many of us. Now on the other hand, something being promotional or commercial would be a very good reason, but you're gonna have a hard time explaining to people how saying "there's a McDonald's gift card in there" is promotional (while a cache with "Jeeps rule!" as name is not, for example). Kinda like trying to explain how a big boulder sitting next to the road is supposed to be a geocache. :anitongue: Yeah, they say it is, but that doesn't make it any more true.

So... that's a "No, I can't provide a specific reason" right?

No, it's a "why should I have to?"

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No, it's a "why should I have to?"

 

To recap:

 

... the use of actual business names will be strongly discouraged since business names should not appear in cache listings. Terms that bring to mind a specific business are to be treated as the same as those businesses themselves. Instead we recommend the use of vague or common substitutions which would achieve the same result. The same applies for trade items and prizes. When it comes to parking areas you can always provide an additional waypoint which is usually the best solution. When describing a location it is best to do so in generic terms. Examples would include "Behind the fast food restaurant", "Near the bowling alley", "Park at the big-box store" and this of course also assumes that people are actually permitted to do so by the store, restaurant or business.

CacheShadow (Me!) says:

"To avoid possible violations of Listing Guidelines - please refrain from including commercial/business/promotional/agenda references in your cache listings".

I also don't see a need to mention or advertise a business or other entity on a cache page, I myself have been to lax on this part.

 

I'm no Reviewer, but I'm pretty sure that you'll have a much harder time trying to force something through given the above statements. But hey, give it a go.

 

B)

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No, it's a "why should I have to?"

 

To recap....

Which I have addressed just above.

 

The point isn't to "force something through". But we're allowed to disagree, yes? Please? Oh, but maybe we're not allowed to say that we do.... Because after all, there's no need to do so, and we haven't given a good reason to do so either. Right? :rolleyes:

Edited by dfx

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The point isn't to "force something through". But we're allowed to disagree, yes? Please? Oh, but maybe we're not allowed to say that we do.... Because after all, there's no need to do so, and we haven't given a good reason to do so either. Right? :rolleyes:

Heeeyyyyy... now you're getting somewhere :laughing:

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In reading through the responses to this thread a few key points have come to mind.

 

The guideline itself

Sometimes cache owners create caches for the purpose of solicitation, or commercialism. Sometimes cache owners create caches without these intentions, but the cache does not meet the commercial guideline.

 

Volunteer reviewers and the cache appeals team receive notification of a full spectrum of 'commercial caches' - some of which are already published. We handle each case on its own merits and guide the cache owner on how to edit the page so that it meets the (current) guidelines.

 

Inconsistency

Groundspeak and its team of volunteer reviewers strive for consistency - within local communities and across the world. As you can likely appreciate it is one of our greatest challenges; each local geocaching community has its own specific interests and approach to the game, and our volunteers represent dozens of countries and languages. There are many factors that affect consistency, and the greatest one is 'being human'. Sometimes a Groundspeak lackey or volunteer reviewer may make an inconsistent call. Sometimes a cache owner tweaks their cache page after publication. Sometimes a cache page that was published pre-guideline update, no longer meets the current guidelines.

 

It is a bold move for a reviewer to address the fact that some caches in their community are no longer meeting the current guideline, and to correct the cache owners and the local review team. CacheDrone has shown strong leadership in this matter, and is acting as a steward of the game. When we steer off course a little, we need someone to correct us and get us back on track.

 

Pop Culture vs Commercialism

This can be a tough call. There are many themed caches and cache series that make reference to popular culture. Kool-aid, Crayola, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings...the list of pop cultural references is is long, and in Australia would include Vegemite.

In asking ourselves (reviewers and lackeys), "Is this cache commercial?", one of the factors we consider is whether or not a business or organization is going to directly benefit from the cache being published.

Land Management Agencies (and other official affiliations)

There was also discussion in this thread about land management organizations. Groundspeak has worked very hard - and continues to do so - to develop strong professional relationships with these organizations. We want them to know about geocaching, to have policies that allow geocaching on these lands. In most instances, it is acceptable for cache owners to mention the specific land and/or land management agency. In some instances it may be required.

 

If the affiliation with the organization is official and Groundspeak has deemed them a partner in providing geocaching to the community, you may see what some will consider to be an exception to the guideline.

 

These cases are generally decided on their own merits, but Groundspeak supports this pro-activity to return to the spirit of the guidelines.

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Pop Culture vs Commercialism

This can be a tough call. There are many themed caches and cache series that make reference to popular culture. Kool-aid, Crayola, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings...the list of pop cultural references is is long, and in Australia would include Vegemite.

In asking ourselves (reviewers and lackeys), "Is this cache commercial?", one of the factors we consider is whether or not a business or organization is going to directly benefit from the cache being published.

 

 

 

in light of the bolded statement above, the requirements bellow seem extremely unreasonable....it even applies to trade items and driving directions...all it does is make us write the cache page like someone suffering from amnesia

 

how can any of this directly benefit the said business if the cache is published?...the items provided in the cache I have already paid for and thus the benefit to the business has been made, a gift provides no further benefit to the business that it was purchased from...furthermore most of the places are well established businesses, they don't need my cache listing to promote themselves

 

... the use of actual business names will be strongly discouraged since business names should not appear in cache listings. Terms that bring to mind a specific business are to be treated as the same as those businesses themselves. Instead we recommend the use of vague or common substitutions which would achieve the same result. The same applies for trade items and prizes. When it comes to parking areas you can always provide an additional waypoint which is usually the best solution. When describing a location it is best to do so in generic terms. Examples would include "Behind the fast food restaurant", "Near the bowling alley", "Park at the big-box store" and this of course also assumes that people are actually permitted to do so by the store, restaurant or business.

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Pop Culture vs Commercialism

This can be a tough call. There are many themed caches and cache series that make reference to popular culture. Kool-aid, Crayola, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings...the list of pop cultural references is is long, and in Australia would include Vegemite.

In asking ourselves (reviewers and lackeys), "Is this cache commercial?", one of the factors we consider is whether or not a business or organization is going to directly benefit from the cache being published.

 

 

 

in light of the bolded statement above, the requirements bellow seem extremely unreasonable....it even applies to trade items and driving directions...all it does is make us write the cache page like someone suffering from amnesia

 

how can any of this directly benefit the said business if the cache is published?...the items provided in the cache I have already paid for and thus the benefit to the business has been made, a gift provides no further benefit to the business that it was purchased from...furthermore most of the places are well established businesses, they don't need my cache listing to promote themselves

 

... the use of actual business names will be strongly discouraged since business names should not appear in cache listings. Terms that bring to mind a specific business are to be treated as the same as those businesses themselves. Instead we recommend the use of vague or common substitutions which would achieve the same result. The same applies for trade items and prizes. When it comes to parking areas you can always provide an additional waypoint which is usually the best solution. When describing a location it is best to do so in generic terms. Examples would include "Behind the fast food restaurant", "Near the bowling alley", "Park at the big-box store" and this of course also assumes that people are actually permitted to do so by the store, restaurant or business.

 

To answer your specific question, we would need to see a cache page and it would need to go through the appeals process. I sense that you are not fully understanding my overall point. We give guidelines, guidance and generalizations, so that community members will have a reasonable parameter in which to create cache pages. Sometimes a cache owner may need some more specific advice or guidance, which they may or can receive case-by-case from Groundspeak or the local volunteer.

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To answer your specific question, we would need to see a cache page and it would need to go through the appeals process. I sense that you are not fully understanding my overall point. We give guidelines, guidance and generalizations, so that community members will have a reasonable parameter in which to create cache pages. Sometimes a cache owner may need some more specific advice or guidance, which they may or can receive case-by-case from Groundspeak or the local volunteer.

I love you. Just sayin' :anicute:

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To answer your specific question, we would need to see a cache page and it would need to go through the appeals process. I sense that you are not fully understanding my overall point. We give guidelines, guidance and generalizations, so that community members will have a reasonable parameter in which to create cache pages. Sometimes a cache owner may need some more specific advice or guidance, which they may or can receive case-by-case from Groundspeak or the local volunteer.

 

no, i do get the point of the Guidelines and i fully agree with the whole non-commercial guideline, however this little episode seems to take it all to an extreme and it was not necessary at all, there is no harm in casually mentioning any business name, the person that complained and sparked all this sudden changes should have been directed to appeals and this whole thing would have been avoided

 

i am also familiar with the appeals process which i have used in the past with 100% satisfaction

 

after all my activity in this thread i have a feeling that i will get to use the appeals again with the next cache i try to have published and you, or whomever deals with the appeals process, will get to see it

i do feel though that it will really be a waste of time for appeals to deal with a silly issue of someone saying that "parking is across the road at Pizza-Pizza" or "$2 coupon for FTF" etc

i know it may seem a very minor issue, and for the third time i will repeat that in the grand scheme of things it does not bother me, the reason i now feel so strong about this subject is the way it was done....you know the saying "its not what you say, its how you say it"

Edited by t4e

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To answer your specific question, we would need to see a cache page and it would need to go through the appeals process. I sense that you are not fully understanding my overall point. We give guidelines, guidance and generalizations, so that community members will have a reasonable parameter in which to create cache pages. Sometimes a cache owner may need some more specific advice or guidance, which they may or can receive case-by-case from Groundspeak or the local volunteer.

 

no, i do get the point of the Guidelines and i fully agree with the whole non-commercial guideline, however this little episode seems to take it all to an extreme and it was not necessary at all, there is no harm in casually mentioning any business name, the person that complained and sparked all this sudden changes should have been directed to appeals and this whole thing would have been avoided

 

i am also familiar with the appeals process which i have used in the past with 100% satisfaction

 

after all my activity in this thread i have a feeling that i will get to use the appeals again with the next cache i try to have published and you, or whomever deals with the appeals process, will get to see it

i do feel though that it will really be a waste of time for appeals to deal with a silly issue of someone saying that "parking is across the road at Pizza-Pizza" or "$2 coupon for FTF" etc

i know it may seem a very minor issue, and for the third time i will repeat that in the grand scheme of things it does not bother me, the reason i now feel so strong about this subject is the way it was done....you know the saying "its not what you say, its how you say it"

 

Is there something wrong with the SHIFT key on your PC????????

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Is there something wrong with the SHIFT key on your PC????????

 

cOme oN Tequila, yoU woulDn't wAnt toO shoW us hOw eaSy it is Too pUsh yOur bUttOns.

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Is there something wrong with the SHIFT key on your PC????????

 

cOme oN Tequila, yoU woulDn't wAnt toO shoW us hOw eaSy it is Too pUsh yOur bUttOns.

 

Not at all.

 

Its just that this thread is the closest thing I can find to a new episode of Seinfeld.

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Is there something wrong with the SHIFT key on your PC????????

 

cOme oN Tequila, yoU woulDn't wAnt toO shoW us hOw eaSy it is Too pUsh yOur bUttOns.

 

Not at all.

 

Its just that this thread is the closest thing I can find to a new episode of Seinfeld.

:lol::lol::lol:

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Is there something wrong with the SHIFT key on your PC????????

 

the wut? :blink:

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Is there something wrong with the SHIFT key on your PC????????

 

cOme oN Tequila, yoU woulDn't wAnt toO shoW us hOw eaSy it is Too pUsh yOur bUttOns.

 

Thank you so much for this much needed intermission.

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Is there something wrong with the SHIFT key on your PC????????

 

cOme oN Tequila, yoU woulDn't wAnt toO shoW us hOw eaSy it is Too pUsh yOur bUttOns.

 

Thank you so much for this much needed intermission.

 

Actually, since this seems like an episode of Seinfeld, it is more of a "commercial break" than an "intermission". However, since commercial references may not be allowed, I guess "intermission" is the right word.

 

Popcorn, licorice and over sized drinks are available in the lobby. None of which will be name brand. :)

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However, since commercial references may not be allowed, I guess "intermission" is the right word.

 

Ba dum dum!! He is here all week! Be sure to try the veal and tip your reviewer. :laughing:

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Having read this thread from start to finish (what better way to spend three hours lying in a hospital bed) I must say... seriously, three reviewers and a Groundspeak Lackey, and we're STILL arguing about this? Are you serious?

 

I just keep remembering, in the back of my mind, a specific Juicepig event listing. I believe the only things posted in the cache description were the co-ordinates of the meeting location, the date, and the time. Did people attend the event? Yes. Did people have fun? I was not at the event, so cannot speak for specific individuals; but people generally do enjoy themselves at these types of shindigs... and the logs seemed very positive, so I am going to go with yes (if you will allow me to make such a bold assumption). Did Juicepig list the name of the venue even once? No.

 

Our VRs are just that, volunteers. They work hard. And that's just at their day jobs. There's no need to bother then with this nonsense, esepcially when most of the people posting here keep saying "I don't care in the grand scheme of things..."

 

If you don't care, drop it. Move on. Get outside. Find a cache. And some poison ivy, or some ticks, or some mosquitoes, or some giant hogweed, or...

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Having read this thread from start to finish (what better way to spend three hours lying in a hospital bed) I must say... seriously, three reviewers and a Groundspeak Lackey, and we're STILL arguing about this? Are you serious?

Nobody's arguing, or well, I am not, anyway. I'm just trying to understand. Unfortunately Sandy's post doesn't answer the underlying question:

 

In asking ourselves (reviewers and lackeys), "Is this cache commercial?", one of the factors we consider is whether or not a business or organization is going to directly benefit from the cache being published.

The question is how you guys, Groundspeak, the reviewers, whoever, perceive an innocent sentence of "FTF prize is a $5 McDonald's coupon" or something along those lines to be commercial. How could McDonald's benefit from that? How could the CO benefit from that? Do you think that it's possible that the CO could have been paid off by the business to put that line into the listings? Or what is it? So far, the only explanation that has been offered was "because we say so" or "because the guidelines say so", and that's just not a very compelling reason.

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The question is how you guys, Groundspeak, the reviewers, whoever, perceive an innocent sentence of "FTF prize is a $5 McDonald's coupon" or something along those lines to be commercial. How could McDonald's benefit from that? How could the CO benefit from that? Do you think that it's possible that the CO could have been paid off by the business to put that line into the listings? Or what is it? So far, the only explanation that has been offered was "because we say so" or "because the guidelines say so", and that's just not a very compelling reason.

Hello, Newman.

 

I perceive it to be commercial since it mentions the name of a business on a cache listing. That business stands to gain dollars above and beyond the meager $5 FTF prize included within since nothing costs exactly $5 there and the inference you're giving to the FTF group is "Eat here (mostly) on my dollar".

 

Again, nothing is lost on the cache listing if you were to omit the mention of the business. Folks still realize that they're vying for $5 somewhere, and your choice of restaurant is moot.

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Hello, Newman.

 

Bwahahaahhahahaahahhaaha!

 

I perceive it to be commercial since it mentions the name of a business on a cache listing. That business stands to gain dollars above and beyond the meager $5 FTF prize included within since nothing costs exactly $5 there and the inference you're giving to the FTF group is "Eat here (mostly) on my dollar".

 

Again, nothing is lost on the cache listing if you were to omit the mention of the business. Folks still realize that they're vying for $5 somewhere, and your choice of restaurant is moot.

 

Although I was having fun with this thread, you have to admit that when you ask for an answer to a question, it doesn't mean that you will necessarily like it. If this reason isn't satisfying then you really have to live in discontentment with the issue.

 

The statement regarding the FTF prize was viewed as commercial for the listed reasons. Not liking it is one thing, but you have to admit that you have been answered.

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blimey! some had the nerve to have an opinion and ask questions in a civil manner and it immediately gets branded as "arguing", don't we live in a great society where if you don't agree with the masses you better shut up and hide?

 

and how wonderful it is to get some coming out just to assume the role of a smart...what's that word?....donkey?

that in itself shows a lot of intelligence and respect

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I perceive it to be commercial since it mentions the name of a business on a cache listing. That business stands to gain dollars above and beyond the meager $5 FTF prize included within since nothing costs exactly $5 there and the inference you're giving to the FTF group is "Eat here (mostly) on my dollar".

 

Negative on that, captain. You're explaining why the placement of such a coupon in the cache could be considered commercial. But the placement isn't disallowed, what's disallowed is saying that it's in there. How does anyone benefit from a CO saying that it's in there?

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Negative on that, captain. You're explaining why the placement of such a coupon in the cache could be

considered commercial. But the placement isn't disallowed, what's disallowed is saying that it's in there.

Groundspeak doesn't control the cache so you can place anything you want in there. Groundspeak does control their website and has asked you to not mention certain things in your listing. Pretty simple to grasp.

 

How does anyone benefit from a CO saying that it's in there?

ad·ver·tise  [ad-ver-tahyz, ad-ver-tahyz]

verb, -tised, -tis·ing. –verb (used with object)

 

1. to announce or praise (a product, service, etc.) in some public medium of communication in order to induce people to buy or use it.

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Negative on that, captain. You're explaining why the placement of such a coupon in the cache could be

considered commercial. But the placement isn't disallowed, what's disallowed is saying that it's in there.

Groundspeak doesn't control the cache so you can place anything you want in there. Groundspeak does control their website and has asked you to not mention certain things in your listing. Pretty simple to grasp.

 

How does anyone benefit from a CO saying that it's in there?

ad·ver·tise  [ad-ver-tahyz, ad-ver-tahyz]

verb, -tised, -tis·ing. –verb (used with object)

 

1. to announce or praise (a product, service, etc.) in some public medium of communication in order to induce people to buy or use it.

 

Back to square one. How does listing the cache's contents or stating where to park constitute advertising?

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At the risk of repeating myself, we decide cache appeal, case by case.

 

Most commercial references are not a hard-core sell, but it is a slippery slope to allow some small mentions and then reasonably big mentions and eventually blatant plugs. When we start down this slippery slope, we eventually need someone to step in and say, 'Hold it! This is an outdoor adventure game, not a plug for McDonalds. Let's get back on track."

 

That is what has happened here. This discussion is not about painting cachers as marketing-driven villains. It is a course-correction. It is all good. And if you have questions about you own cache, email us so we can have a look at it.

 

Cheers.

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Back to square one. How does listing the cache's contents or stating where to park constitute advertising?

By the definition of the word. You mention a business or product, it's advertising. Weather or not you have some stake in that business or product is irrelevant.

 

As people have already mentioned, listing the cache's initial contents is pointless as it quickly becomes out of date. And if you must do it it's very easy to be generic.

 

As for parking directions, street names and distances from major intersections works quite well and if you must be specific "park beside the big orange building" is just as good "park at the home depot". Actually it's even better for out of country visitors as they may not know what a typical home depot looks like.

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This reply is a genuine attempt to answer dfx's question. It is not intended to be argumentative, or a debate point, just hoping to explain it in as clear of terms as possible.

 

Based on this line only

How does listing the cache's contents or stating where to park constitute advertising?

 

Cache Contents: I'm going to answer by example. There is a certain company out in Canada somewhere that makes coins for people that provide designs. They are in business, and I suspect they make a comfortable living from their business. They pay Groundspeak to have their advertisements on the website. Those ads are there ultimately to direct/funnel new and repeat business back to them and their company. Now if it was possible for any player to just say "The cache includes geocoins made by Coinzilla (fake name I hope)." that would be free advertising for Coinzilla and would reduce the amount of need for them to purchase advertising space. Repeating this for other businesses, eventually Groundspeak would have to increase the price of a Premium Membership because they would no longer have that income stream, or it would be reduced. So it then follows that there is no incentive for Tim Horton's, Starbucks, McDonald's etc etc to advertise on geocaching.com because people are doing it for them without even being asked. This brings me to point two.

 

Where to Park: Again, an example. Think about this word... "Elephant". Are you thinking about it? Right, you can see it can't you? Big, gray animal. Got a trunk. Lives in Norway... what? Lives in Africa.. ahh. right. You almost cannot help but see it in your head. And then there is the opinions. They never forget, afraid of mice, slow, strong, spray water.. yeah, you get the picture I hope. Try it again when I say "Starbucks". Hmm, first thing in my head is coffee. I can see the store, the logo, the biscotti, people sitting around on the Mac computers.

 

That hopefully demonstrates that even a passing statement causes two thought processes. First off, the mention of the business/product makes people think about it. That is what advertising is intended to do. Secondly, why should a business be able to have that benefit for free, especially when other businesses are paying for that? If Tim Horton's, McDonald's, Disney, The Toronto Maple Leafs, The Rolling Stones, NASA, or whoever wants to have their name in a listing... let them make the arrangements.

 

:cool: CD

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Cache Contents: I'm going to answer by example. There is a certain company out in Canada somewhere that makes coins for people that provide designs. They are in business, and I suspect they make a comfortable living from their business. They pay Groundspeak to have their advertisements on the website. Those ads are there ultimately to direct/funnel new and repeat business back to them and their company. Now if it was possible for any player to just say "The cache includes geocoins made by Coinzilla (fake name I hope)." that would be free advertising for Coinzilla and would reduce the amount of need for them to purchase advertising space. Repeating this for other businesses, eventually Groundspeak would have to increase the price of a Premium Membership because they would no longer have that income stream, or it would be reduced. So it then follows that there is no incentive for Tim Horton's, Starbucks, McDonald's etc etc to advertise on geocaching.com because people are doing it for them without even being asked. This brings me to point two.

I understand this part fully, in fact I was considering exactly this scenario myself before I posted. However, I quickly dismissed it. How many page impressions does geocaching.com get in total per day? Quite a lot I assume. This is what an advertiser pays for. How many page impressions does a single cache page get in relation to that? No advertiser would ever consider to spend any money on such a low number, because it's worthless to them, especially large (inter)national companies like the ones that were targeted. I could at least somewhat see the point for small businesses, small single stores, but not Tim Horton's, Starbucks, McDonald's etc. They couldn't care less if a handful of cache pages have a reference to them. In fact I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't even consider buying regular commercial space on geocaching.com for regular advertising, because the audience reach is far too small for them.

 

Where to Park: Again, an example. Think about this word... "Elephant". Are you thinking about it? Right, you can see it can't you? Big, gray animal. Got a trunk. Lives in Norway... what? Lives in Africa.. ahh. right. You almost cannot help but see it in your head. And then there is the opinions. They never forget, afraid of mice, slow, strong, spray water.. yeah, you get the picture I hope. Try it again when I say "Starbucks". Hmm, first thing in my head is coffee. I can see the store, the logo, the biscotti, people sitting around on the Mac computers.

Right. But what does that have to do with advertising? I already know what Starbucks is and so do most other people. If a friend wants to come visit me at my house and asks me for directions, and I say "turn left at the Starbucks", does that make him wanna go get a coffee there? Does it tell him anything new (other than where to take the turn)? Does it try to tell him how good the coffee there is? I don't think so. Neither does you mentioning Mac computers here try to tell anyone anything that they don't already know. Again, I can see the point for smaller businesses... added exposure for free and all that, yeah, those certainly would be glad about it, and abusing a cache listing for that wouldn't be so good. But Starbucks or McDonald's or Tim Horton's? Serisouly?

 

I can see where you're coming from, but excuse me if in all honesty I just can't agree with the reasoning. Sandy's explanation makes a lot more sense to me:

 

Most commercial references are not a hard-core sell, but it is a slippery slope to allow some small mentions and then reasonably big mentions and eventually blatant plugs. When we start down this slippery slope, we eventually need someone to step in and say, 'Hold it! This is an outdoor adventure game, not a plug for McDonalds. Let's get back on track."

 

That essentially says that those instances aren't really seen as commercial per se, but that it's rather a preventive "just in case" measure. Ok, fair enough. Kinda sad because it pretty much goes against the use of common sense that the CEO so often advocates and instead tries to convert guidelines to hard rules, but whatever. Still, the sudden and selective implementation of that measure left much to desire. Why only here? And why only certain businesses and not others? And why now suddenly? Ok, the "why now" has been addressed in the OP, but that really doesn't seem like a good reason. It would have been much nicer if, for example, the new enforcement of this rule would have applied only to new listings, but globally, while older listings could have gotten "grandfathered", like it was the case with so many other guidelines changes/reinterpretations over the many years. Even caches that now violate one of the hardest rules around, the proximity guideline, were left untouched, while in other cases (ALRs) action was taken with careful consistency. Neither of this has happened here. I can well imagine how it went down: "Let's think of the largest and most common businesses around, the ones that are most likely to be mentioned in cache listings for whatever reason. Then let's do a text search for those and smack all the caches that come up over the head, just to make our point." Not nice, at all.

 

But ok, I got my answer. Not one I can agree with, but an answer.

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PLEASE do not take this to mean that we want to be receiving list upon list of other caches with business names in them. If you are aware of some and feel they are unjust, I would suggest you write privately to the Cache Owner and suggest they voluntarily edit their own cache pages. Reviewer have better things to do, like publish new caches for people to enjoy, than having to police such minor items that the community can resolve internally themselves.

 

I could post a "Reviewer Note", but I can say from experience that "Reviewer Notes" are rarely noticed by the majority of Players after their cache has been published.

Reviewer Notes have given me a 20-30% success rate in communicating with a Player; the Disabling of a cache has provided an 80-90% success rate.

Yes, in these cases I'm wielding the strength vested in me by Signal to get my point across; I (as with the other Reviewers) do my best not to abuse it.

I've only goofed a few times, and in those cases I've done my best to patch things up with the Player.

 

I have no problem with the guidelines. I can understand why they were written as does everyone else in this thread. Back to the original action of the mass disabling and telling us not to send in lists of caches that do not comply.

 

I see this a an unfair application of the guidelines as to how the action was taken. CacheDrone takes a list list from a member and disables caches on that list. Then suggests that others do not send him a list and send an email themselves to the cache owner.

 

1) I am not the cache police or a reviewer so it is not my place to contact other members and tell them there is something wrong with their cache and demand they change it.

2) I do not have the ability to enforce anything I demand about someone else's cache listing so it would haver to come back to the reviewer after wasting my time. Time that I should not have spent in the first place because it is not my place to contact others about their caches.

3) CacheShadow has indicated that even a reviewer note, which we can all agree will have more weight than one email from another player, has only as 20-30% success rate where disabling has a 80-90% success rate.

 

If a reviewer is going to take a heavy handed action, they should be expected to consistently perform that way if that way is correct. That means if taking a list from a single user and mass disabling caches as a result of that list, then all of us should expect any list we send will be dealt with the same way. Not be told not to send a list because the reviewer has better things to do. Clearly the massing disabling was an important thing to do be cause they did it.

 

ad·ver·tise [ad-ver-tahyz, ad-ver-tahyz]

verb, -tised, -tis·ing. –verb (used with object)

 

1. to announce or praise (a product, service, etc.) in some public medium of communication in order to induce people to buy or use it.

 

The whole thing about advertising /soliciting is being split by its hairs to death. If the reviewer is going to propose 0 tolerance, then 0 tolerance it should.

 

If a FTF prize being described in the listing using a company name is not allowed, then placing it in the container should not be allowed. Both are calling to attention the name of a company which is against the guidelines. If brand names are not allowed in the listing then brand names should not e allowed in or on the cache container. The mention of any FTF should not be allowed as that would be soliciting. If I put an FTF prize in my cache and announce it, then I am soliciting action from cachers to find my cache over others because there is a reward to find my cache quickly. Caches that solicit and solicitation in the cache listing is not allowed so the activity of FTF prizes should not be allowed either. Or at least not allowing it to be mentioned in the cache listing. For that natter, mentioning any cache contents should not be allowed as that may be considered soliciting.

 

The same thing applies for events that are organized cache hunts and events with caches. I know organized cache hunts sneak through disguised as regular events. This activity should be stopped because it is not fair to others that would like to do the same thing and fail because they are not as clever. Events with caches should not be allowed to mention that there are any caches in the area. Most know that they can expect to find new caches placed in the immediate area of the event just for the event. This again should be considered as solicitation because the placement of the caches is meant to attract caches who otherwise would not come because the only thing left would be socializing and some cachers do not enjoy social events with nothing else to do like find caches.

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1) I am not the cache police or a reviewer so it is not my place to contact other members and tell them there is something wrong with their cache and demand they change it.

 

The same thing applies for events that are organized cache hunts and events with caches. I know organized cache hunts sneak through disguised as regular events. This activity should be stopped because it is not fair to others that would like to do the same thing and fail because they are not as clever. Events with caches should not be allowed to mention that there are any caches in the area.

 

:huh:

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what exactly do you mean?...geocaching IS FREE, its not pay to play :blink:

 

Oh they made it so non-premium members can get premium caches now ? :)

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what exactly do you mean?...geocaching IS FREE, its not pay to play :blink:

 

Oh they made it so non-premium members can get premium caches now ? :)

Actually, when it comes to PMO caches, the only thing anyone ever pays for is the ability to create PMO listings. The ability to view PMO caches is not really one of the services that a premium membership gets you (even though Groundspeak may say it is) because Groundspeak neither creates the listings nor decides which ones are PMO and which ones aren't. In other words, if no cacher ever chose to create any PMO listings, then premium membership wouldn't make any difference at all in this regard. So, PMO caches are merely a perk that comes with premium membership, not something you actually pay for (even though I'm sure that there's some people around who have their premium membership only for this reason).

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The same thing applies for events that are organized cache hunts and events with caches. I know organized cache hunts sneak through disguised as regular events. This activity should be stopped because it is not fair to others that would like to do the same thing and fail because they are not as clever. Events with caches should not be allowed to mention that there are any caches in the area. Most know that they can expect to find new caches placed in the immediate area of the event just for the event. This again should be considered as solicitation because the placement of the caches is meant to attract caches who otherwise would not come because the only thing left would be socializing and some cachers do not enjoy social events with nothing else to do like find caches.

 

Actually, for the most part, I could live with most of what you suggest in your post. I think it's a tad more heavy-handed than the guideline is looking to manage, but for myself personally, I would be OK.

 

The only thing I can't really see as a valid argument is the part I bolded above. I'm not an overly clever individual, and some of the puzzles out there are just beyond my noodle. So I'd have to ask if this "clever" clause would also apply to brain busting puzzles that a cacher might need help to solve? Perhaps exceptionally well camo'd caches which are near impossible to find (placed as such on purpose) might then be considered overly clever, and thus should be denied also?

 

Again, I, personally, could probably live with all that, though there's clearly a segment of cachers that enjoy a good challenge from time to time, whether in solving or searching.

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Sorry, replace clever with experienced. The cachers that are aware of the retrictions know not to mention hunting hunting caches.

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what exactly do you mean?...geocaching IS FREE, its not pay to play :blink:

 

Oh they made it so non-premium members can get premium caches now ? :)

 

regular members can, and were always able, to log PM caches

 

however, i will be generous and say that 1% of all caches are PM's...if that is your only criteria for saying that geocaching is not free, you have no argument

 

chances are that if nobody paid for PM, this site may not exist in the form that it does now, or maybe not at all

 

so i think its kind of lame for the regular members to complain for the little perks we get as PM's

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what exactly do you mean?...geocaching IS FREE, its not pay to play :blink:

 

Oh they made it so non-premium members can get premium caches now ? :)

 

regular members can, and were always able, to log PM caches

 

however, i will be generous and say that 1% of all caches are PM's...if that is your only criteria for saying that geocaching is not free, you have no argument

 

chances are that if nobody paid for PM, this site may not exist in the form that it does now, or maybe not at all

 

so i think its kind of lame for the regular members to complain for the little perks we get as PM's

 

You've taken the point I was making and went down an unintended tangent with it, an argument could be made that the click-through ads could be considered payment to Groundspeak for Geocaching.com, but I'll not argue the minutia :P

 

The point I was making, and has been stated here a few times by other people, is that Geocaching.com is owned by Groundspeak, a company, and the decision to not permit business names is a marketing decision.

 

That is not to say its a bad decision, or a good decision, or that we have any say in it. It's a marketing decision, that has real world effects.

 

Calling them Guidelines is just semantics, they're rules. Loosely followed.. but rules. I just think there should be a formal definition to those rules/guidelines to know where the line is. Saying "we'll play it by ear".. is well, not practicle.

 

If I, being a jerk, were to just pick a random cache and state "I don't like this cache/cacher, lets find a way to disable it", I could theoretically find something in most listings that would allow me to do just that.

 

"Oh, they said Tupperware", "Oh they said the name of X product", "Oh they said the name of X company.". If something gets by the reviewer, the precedent has now been set that these caches will be disabled if the person complains hard enough..

 

I'm all for removing the names of businesses 100% from the cache listing.. if that's the rule. Using the guideline procedure would work well if we could live by it, but we're humans, and humans will find a way to complain about _anything_.

 

What I'd suggest is a global clarification of the guidelines, and a stronger adherence to them. Also, I'd suggest that any existing caches would be permitted to remain as is, in a legacy/grandfathered in status. Inconsistencies in policy and in allowed game play in different regions doesn't generate good feelings for anybody.

 

Yes, I know, volunteers, etc. I'm glad people volunteer their time to be reviewers, I wouldn't have the patience for it, and I don't envy them at all. Seriously, wow, good job.

 

My point is, volunteers or not, guidelines should be more firm vs 'do what you feel is right, and we'll see what we can do!'.

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