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CacheDrone

Business names in listings

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Looks like some idiot has forgotten it is a game, and started hassling the reviewers to blindly stick to the letter of the rule.

 

The reviewers were previously using their common sense, and very well it worked.

 

They don't want the hassle of telling this idiot to shut up, or changing the rules to say 'in our opinion, and its final' (and only the Big Green Frog Himself can make a change like that anyway).

 

They can't simply drop the rule as geocaching would be spammed to death b yblatantly commercial 'caches'.

 

Therefore the idiot, in their childish sulk, is forcing them to stick to the letter of the rules.

 

Don't blame the reviewers, blame the idiot (I wish they'd own up to who they are so we can all deride him/her). This idiot is like a sulky kid taking his ball home because he didn't win.

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regardless of one idiot or many that have sparked the massive disabling of caches for mentioning a coupon for a coffee shop, or not, the bottom line is that this action really reflects bad on the reviewers themselves, its pretty much saying "ooh wait i ignored this rule for two years, now that some idiot complained lets go back and randomly disable caches that are not in compliance"

either all are disabled or none, doing it for a select few it only creates animosity and a potential flood of emails with more complaints along the lines "why mine and this is still allowed to have the business name in it?"

that line in the Guidelines is quite frankly ridiculous as 90% of the caches are near some business

 

as Dragoon has pointed out a park charging an entrance is a business, placing a cache in a park that requires an admission fee is blatantly promoting that park....will all the caches in such places be disabled eventually?

 

so in regards to the mass complaining i mentioned above, what if i make a list and email the reviewers all the caches in parks that mention the name?

would that waste their time or not?...will they be disabled?

 

as i said before the person that complained should have been directed to appeals and life would have been much simpler

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Don't blame the reviewers, blame the idiot (I wish they'd own up to who they are so we can all deride him/her). This idiot is like a sulky kid taking his ball home because he didn't win.

 

No, blame the guidelines^Wrules. Jeremy has repeatedly stated that the guidelines are "guidelines" and not "rules" because they're not supposed to be followed to the letter. Instead, common sense is to be applied, with the guidelines just being guidelines to that. The claim that it's commercial or promotional to mention the name of a business in a listing just for explaining where the cache is, or what the FTF prize is, totally goes against common sense. It's just silly.

Edited by dfx

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Don't blame the reviewers, blame the idiot (I wish they'd own up to who they are so we can all deride him/her). This idiot is like a sulky kid taking his ball home because he didn't win.

 

I'm not blaming the reviewers at all, I agree with the call they had to make. You get the previously mentioned "idiot", who pushes the reviewers and "guidelines"/rules around to get what they want. Without clearer guidelines, it, or something like it, will happen again.. and again.. add nausea (that's not a typo, it actually adds nausea).

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I wonder if you would still have raised a fuss looking for change if your listing hadn't been affected?

 

Simply answered? Yes.

 

I'm on the leadership team for a Local Geocaching group and, despite being the most easy going person you'll ever meet, I'll argue for a legitimate cause/reason until they kick me out :laughing:

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regardless of one idiot or many that have sparked the massive disabling of caches for mentioning a coupon for a coffee shop, or not, the bottom line is that this action really reflects bad on the reviewers themselves, its pretty much saying "ooh wait i ignored this rule for two years, now that some idiot complained lets go back and randomly disable caches that are not in compliance"

either all are disabled or none, doing it for a select few it only creates animosity and a potential flood of emails with more complaints along the lines "why mine and this is still allowed to have the business name in it?"

that line in the Guidelines is quite frankly ridiculous as 90% of the caches are near some business

 

as Dragoon has pointed out a park charging an entrance is a business, placing a cache in a park that requires an admission fee is blatantly promoting that park....will all the caches in such places be disabled eventually?

 

so in regards to the mass complaining i mentioned above, what if i make a list and email the reviewers all the caches in parks that mention the name?

would that waste their time or not?...will they be disabled?

 

as i said before the person that complained should have been directed to appeals and life would have been much simpler

 

Yea I wonder does this now affect those parks that have fee's, also i still haven't got the question answered about creating a themed geocache. Because if there not going to like the theme (a product which is also a company name) will it get rejected? If so then it's not worth my time starting it or creating any more geocaches. I found a few Themed geocaches out there to be really cool.

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regardless of one idiot or many that have sparked the massive disabling of caches for mentioning a coupon for a coffee shop, or not, the bottom line is that this action really reflects bad on the reviewers themselves, its pretty much saying "ooh wait i ignored this rule for two years, now that some idiot complained lets go back and randomly disable caches that are not in compliance"

either all are disabled or none, doing it for a select few it only creates animosity and a potential flood of emails with more complaints along the lines "why mine and this is still allowed to have the business name in it?"

that line in the Guidelines is quite frankly ridiculous as 90% of the caches are near some business

 

as Dragoon has pointed out a park charging an entrance is a business, placing a cache in a park that requires an admission fee is blatantly promoting that park....will all the caches in such places be disabled eventually?

 

so in regards to the mass complaining i mentioned above, what if i make a list and email the reviewers all the caches in parks that mention the name?

would that waste their time or not?...will they be disabled?

 

as i said before the person that complained should have been directed to appeals and life would have been much simpler

 

Yea I wonder does this now affect those parks that have fee's, also i still haven't got the question answered about creating a themed geocache. Because if there not going to like the theme (a product which is also a company name) will it get rejected? If so then it's not worth my time starting it or creating any more geocaches. I found a few Themed geocaches out there to be really cool.

 

Once upon a time Miss Jenn wrote a post about the guidelines specifically permitting "popular culture". Can't seem to find that reference in the current Guidelines though.

 

I would imagine this has become one of those perilous grey areas. I'm sure there are still ways to use products of, say, Hollywood without running afoul of the listing guidelines. If you work with your local reviewer they can clear things up a bit. I'm quite sure a listing indicating a movie is for sale at the local Blockbuster would be declined whereas a cache _based_ on the same movie would be approved. When in doubt, fire off an email to your reviewer and ask ... chances are you'll get the answer well before the angst stage of the discussion.

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regardless of one idiot or many that have sparked the massive disabling of caches for mentioning a coupon for a coffee shop... <snip>

 

so in regards to the mass complaining i mentioned above, what if i make a list and email the reviewers all the caches in parks that mention the name?

would that waste their time or not?...will they be disabled?

 

as i said before the person that complained should have been directed to appeals and life would have been much simpler

 

I think the answer to your bolded question is a mix of your first line and last line of text. Don't be that "idiot" who'd rather cause grief for others rather than seek a judgment via the Appeals channel when stuff doesn't go your way. You'd be wasting your time by submitting a list, and more importantly, their time too.

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I wonder if you would still have raised a fuss looking for change if your listing hadn't been affected?

 

Simply answered? Yes.

 

I'm on the leadership team for a Local Geocaching group and, despite being the most easy going person you'll ever meet, I'll argue for a legitimate cause/reason until they kick me out :laughing:

 

I'm a fairly even-keeled dude, too, but I have to admit that arguing for something that is unnecessary seems... well, unnecessary. Makes for good TV, though! :laughing:

 

We're perhaps 60 posts in to a thread barking about a few caches that got disabled due to commercial content as a result of some whistle blowing, and while that's unfortunate, not one person has presented a legitimate argument as to why a cacher might require any business name of any sort in the description/title of their physical cache placement. (I give leeway for events, but even those are possibly not necessary)

 

I'm not looking to incite a riot, and I'm certainly not advocating the gathering of lists to submit to VRs, but my personal stance is that there's absolutely no need for any commercial names (Store chains, park names, city names, plastic container brand names, etc.) in any listing, in any form.

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I wonder if you would still have raised a fuss looking for change if your listing hadn't been affected?

 

Simply answered? Yes.

 

I'm on the leadership team for a Local Geocaching group and, despite being the most easy going person you'll ever meet, I'll argue for a legitimate cause/reason until they kick me out :laughing:

 

I'm a fairly even-keeled dude, too, but I have to admit that arguing for something that is unnecessary seems... well, unnecessary. Makes for good TV, though! :laughing:

 

We're perhaps 60 posts in to a thread barking about a few caches that got disabled due to commercial content as a result of some whistle blowing, and while that's unfortunate, not one person has presented a legitimate argument as to why a cacher might require any business name of any sort in the description/title of their physical cache placement. (I give leeway for events, but even those are possibly not necessary)

 

I'm not looking to incite a riot, and I'm certainly not advocating the gathering of lists to submit to VRs, but my personal stance is that there's absolutely no need for any commercial names (Store chains, park names, city names, plastic container brand names, etc.) in any listing, in any form.

 

I thought i gave a good handful of reasons to let some names go, reasons that affect both the geocacher and the cache hider.

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I thought i gave a good handful of reasons to let some names go, reasons that affect both the geocacher and the cache hider.

 

Then you thought wrong. Which is why I asked again for a legitimate argument. From anyone.

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I thought i gave a good handful of reasons to let some names go, reasons that affect both the geocacher and the cache hider.

 

Then you thought wrong. Which is why I asked again for a legitimate argument. From anyone.

 

I had a legitimate argument, but apparently it's getting tossed aside or dismissed without any reasons why. Almost seems like a child is in charge..

Edited by jeffd5

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I thought i gave a good handful of reasons to let some names go, reasons that affect both the geocacher and the cache hider.

 

Then you thought wrong. Which is why I asked again for a legitimate argument. From anyone.

 

I had a legitimate argument, but apparently it's getting tossed aside or dismissed.

 

If you mean the Theme Cache idea .... I answered you on that .... but that "got tossed aside or dismissed"

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Can't we just ban jerks? That would solve a great deal of problems with the site, and reduce the guidelines to pretty much one sentance... :anibad:

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I thought i gave a good handful of reasons to let some names go, reasons that affect both the geocacher and the cache hider.

 

Then you thought wrong. Which is why I asked again for a legitimate argument. From anyone.

 

I had a legitimate argument, but apparently it's getting tossed aside or dismissed.

 

If you mean the Theme Cache idea .... I answered you on that .... but that "got tossed aside or dismissed"

 

I think jeffd5 is waiting for an answer from the original poster. I know I am. Replies from others may be interesting arguments or observations but unfortunately do not answer the question as a reviewer would see it which is what I want to here.

 

Please resist the name calling and casting personal attacks/opinions against others. They are not helpful and I am pretty sure no one in this forum would appreciate being called names or demeaned in a public forum regardless if the person's name is not being used.

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I thought i gave a good handful of reasons to let some names go, reasons that affect both the geocacher and the cache hider.

 

Then you thought wrong. Which is why I asked again for a legitimate argument. From anyone.

 

I had a legitimate argument, but apparently it's getting tossed aside or dismissed.

 

If you mean the Theme Cache idea .... I answered you on that .... but that "got tossed aside or dismissed"

 

I think jeffd5 is waiting for an answer from the original poster. I know I am. Replies from others may be interesting arguments or observations but unfortunately do not answer the question as a reviewer would see it which is what I want to here.

 

Please resist the name calling and casting personal attacks/opinions against others. They are not helpful and I am pretty sure no one in this forum would appreciate being called names or demeaned in a public forum regardless if the person's name is not being used.

 

Well he needs to be more specific then, if that's what he wants. There are more people discussing this thread than just the OP.

 

I also don't recall calling anyone a name or demeaning them. I did however comment on a perceived action. He claimed his point was ignored and I claimed that my response to his point was ignored. If anything I was attacking an action, not a person.

 

Perhaps you could allow the offended party to tell me off rather than doing that in proxy format for them. You and I have enough history without going on crusades to fight other people's battles for them.

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I think jeffd5 is waiting for an answer from the original poster. I know I am. Replies from others may be interesting arguments or observations but unfortunately do not answer the question as a reviewer would see it which is what I want to here.

 

Please resist the name calling and casting personal attacks/opinions against others. They are not helpful and I am pretty sure no one in this forum would appreciate being called names or demeaned in a public forum regardless if the person's name is not being used.

 

Well he needs to be more specific then, if that's what he wants. There are more people discussing this thread than just the OP.

 

I also don't recall calling anyone a name or demeaning them. I did however comment on a perceived action. He claimed his point was ignored and I claimed that my response to his point was ignored. If anything I was attacking an action, not a person.

 

Perhaps you could allow the offended party to tell me off rather than doing that in proxy format for them. You and I have enough history without going on crusades to fight other people's battles for them.

 

Yea waiting on the OP, cause really all this comes down to is just leaving existing fine working caches enabled first and foremost. and to give future cache listings a little leeway on the review.

 

I had listings not get passed there initial review and i was given reasons why, which i agreed with all those reasons and acted accordingly to resolve. But this one, as someone mentioned earlier felt a bit like a witch hunt, after noticing some caches disabled, it was a disappointing feeling. especially when it targets Ontario only for example, why just Ontario?.

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I thought i gave a good handful of reasons to let some names go, reasons that affect both the geocacher and the cache hider.

 

Then you thought wrong. Which is why I asked again for a legitimate argument. From anyone.

 

I had a legitimate argument, but apparently it's getting tossed aside or dismissed without any reasons why. Almost seems like a child is in charge..

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument amounted to "I think a Toy Story themed cache, where everyone must trade Toy Story themed toys, would be cool because without a theme, nobody else would think it was interesting."

 

A couple things... Firstly, Toy Story is cool. How do I know? Cuz it's someone else's intellectual property that earns money hand over fist through all kinds of other people who make toys and games, etc. The premise of "Cool" however, is not a valid reason for allowing commercial content in a listing. I'd argue that your series would be monumentally more interesting if you created your own set of characters and your own storyline and stopped using someone else's ideas.

 

Secondly, you couldn't require anyone to only trade "Toy Story" themed toys in your cache. You could certainly request that they do, but not demand. And since you couldn't demand that anyone follow the "Toy Story" theme, you might as well come up with a new idea for a series.

 

Thirdly, the notion that every cache requires a theme is kinda silly. Look around. Most require absolutely no theme whatsoever, and yet, people find them.

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I think jeffd5 is waiting for an answer from the original poster. I know I am. Replies from others may be interesting arguments or observations but unfortunately do not answer the question as a reviewer would see it which is what I want to here.

 

Please resist the name calling and casting personal attacks/opinions against others. They are not helpful and I am pretty sure no one in this forum would appreciate being called names or demeaned in a public forum regardless if the person's name is not being used.

 

Well he needs to be more specific then, if that's what he wants. There are more people discussing this thread than just the OP.

 

I also don't recall calling anyone a name or demeaning them. I did however comment on a perceived action. He claimed his point was ignored and I claimed that my response to his point was ignored. If anything I was attacking an action, not a person.

 

Perhaps you could allow the offended party to tell me off rather than doing that in proxy format for them. You and I have enough history without going on crusades to fight other people's battles for them.

 

Sorry, my fault. I forget that the typed word and using quotes can lead to misunderstandings. I do remember a post a few years ago that when read caused a huge blow out because the context was assumed incorrectly. I did however apologize to my neighbor for getting wet while changing his oil because I predicted a storms travel from the radar incorrectly. Not sure what history has to do with standing up for some one who may want to remain un-named considering the abuse towards them taking place. The second paragraph was meant for the offenders. If you have a personal issue with me, I am deeply sorry to hear that. May I suggest you leave it out of the forums as not to distract from the original issue hear any further. I apologize to everyone for the distraction this may have caused.

 

I think I will head off to tilt at some windmills for a while. And catch a Cheap Trick concert.

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I think jeffd5 is waiting for an answer from the original poster. I know I am. Replies from others may be interesting arguments or observations but unfortunately do not answer the question as a reviewer would see it which is what I want to here.

 

Please resist the name calling and casting personal attacks/opinions against others. They are not helpful and I am pretty sure no one in this forum would appreciate being called names or demeaned in a public forum regardless if the person's name is not being used.

 

I wonder if they aren't saying anything because the answers you seek have already been given by the folks posting to this forum? Perhaps it's also because there's nothing to discuss.

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The Ontario reviewers have been following this thread and we certainly do want to find a balance between the wordings found in the guidelines, the intention for cachers to provide information and the overall fun factor. We would much rather publish caches than anything else and we understand that off-hand references are not always intended as a means to promote. As in the past, we continue to be open to conversing with cache owners on an individual basis.

 

That said, the use of actual business names will be strongly discouraged since business names should not appear in cache listings. Terms that bring to mind a specific business are to be treated as the same as those businesses themselves. Instead we recommend the use of vague or common substitutions which would achieve the same result. The same applies for trade items and prizes. When it comes to parking areas you can always provide an additional waypoint which is usually the best solution. When describing a location it is best to do so in generic terms. Examples would include "Behind the fast food restaurant", "Near the bowling alley", "Park at the big-box store" and this of course also assumes that people are actually permitted to do so by the store, restaurant or business.

 

We do make an exception to the above in the case of event caches and citos. The name and address of the venue may be listed one time in the short or long description areas but not the cache title. It is also fine to list any prize donors in the standard font used on the listing page. What is not permitted would be logos or links to the venue or donor, as well as words that promote, evaluate or endorse a venue or donor.

 

:cool: CD

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The Ontario reviewers have been following this thread and we certainly do want to find a balance between the wordings found in the guidelines, the intention for cachers to provide information and the overall fun factor. We would much rather publish caches than anything else and we understand that off-hand references are not always intended as a means to promote. As in the past, we continue to be open to conversing with cache owners on an individual basis.

 

Please do me and everyone else a favour: Keep up the good work. Almost all of the caches that we have placed were initially disabled in the review stage and we feel that the reasons were outlined with logic, fairness and an invitation to open communication with the reviewer. And each one of them was eventually published to our satisfaction. There's room for discretion in the review process, but let's all see the bigger picture - I think that the reviewers' "job" is to see that bigger picture and make the game fair and fun for everyone. I'll tell you that I have not agreed with everything sent back to me by a VR, but I've respected the viewpoint of a peer trying to keep everyone happy - the members, the PTB, land managers, my mother, etc.

 

This topic started out as a very interesting discussion of the guidelines and what is acceptable and what is not. It has morphed into something unpleasant, yet entertaining, and I continue to rubberneck. I blame the heat. I'm personally going to sit back with a nice cool [product name deleted] and chill out. [see, the product name wasn't necessary, you get the picture without it!]

 

And, my final word, hopefully:

 

Can't we just ban jerks? That would solve a great deal of problems with the site, and reduce the guidelines to pretty much one sentance... :anibad:

 

... that would require a written guideline defining what a jerk is. If Susan wrote that guideline, I would have been banned before even opening an account.

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The Ontario reviewers have been following this thread and we certainly do want to find a balance between the wordings found in the guidelines, the intention for cachers to provide information and the overall fun factor. We would much rather publish caches than anything else and we understand that off-hand references are not always intended as a means to promote. As in the past, we continue to be open to conversing with cache owners on an individual basis.

 

That said, the use of actual business names will be strongly discouraged since business names should not appear in cache listings. Terms that bring to mind a specific business are to be treated as the same as those businesses themselves. Instead we recommend the use of vague or common substitutions which would achieve the same result. The same applies for trade items and prizes. When it comes to parking areas you can always provide an additional waypoint which is usually the best solution. When describing a location it is best to do so in generic terms. Examples would include "Behind the fast food restaurant", "Near the bowling alley", "Park at the big-box store" and this of course also assumes that people are actually permitted to do so by the store, restaurant or business.

 

We do make an exception to the above in the case of event caches and citos. The name and address of the venue may be listed one time in the short or long description areas but not the cache title. It is also fine to list any prize donors in the standard font used on the listing page. What is not permitted would be logos or links to the venue or donor, as well as words that promote, evaluate or endorse a venue or donor.

 

:cool: CD

 

Thanks

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I'm personally going to sit back with a nice cool [product name deleted] and chill out. [see, the product name wasn't necessary, you get the picture without it!]

 

 

no, i don't get the idea....

 

lets see what that might be...air conditioned room, alcoholic drink, non-alcoholic drink, ice cream, ice pack...or perhaps is something "cool" in the sense that is an admired aesthetic of attitude, behavior, comportment, appearance and style?

 

this whole thing is just plain ridiculous...as its been mentioned before if the guideline is to be followed 100% we can't even say what type of container we have hidden

 

i have now asked twice and i am still waiting for a reply...why hasn't the person that complained been directed to appeals instead of going on a disabling binge and imposing this restriction that pretty much says "as a reviewer i am washing my hands of this aspect of the guidelines" and totally discourages any intention of communicating with the reviewer

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That said, the use of actual business names will be strongly discouraged since business names should not appear in cache listings. Terms that bring to mind a specific business are to be treated as the same as those businesses themselves. Instead we recommend the use of vague or common substitutions which would achieve the same result.

 

I am not Canadian and encountered this thread mainly by chance. While I can understand that the action the reviewers had to take did not leave them with happy feelings and moreover increased their working load, I am not convinced that what you write above can be done and in particular not in a fair way. This would also mean that before publishing a cache you would have to make a research for many terms and find out whether businesses with such a name exist.

 

Moreover, there are examples where the name of a business or product gets used as representative for a whole group of products. For example, in Austria almost everyone is calling a transparent adhesive band Tixo (regardless of the company producing it). This term can be found in the official Austrian dictionary. Certainly would could use other terms in cache descriptions, but that would be quite ridiculous to forbid the only really common term for this type of thing in Austria.

 

Likewise, many locations like schools, sport stadiums, streets etc carry business names in their name. If I e.g. wish to explain the way to some place and would like to state please turn

right at Philipps-Street (which has its name as Philipps is located there), then it starts to get really ridiculous.

 

It will never be possible to avoid all mentions of business names in cache listings and any attempt to try this will end up in absurd and unfair situations.

E.g. among others Felix is an Austrian food company and the brand name for animal food. Further meanings can be found here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix

Moreover, the word is a latin work meaning happy, a quite common male name (including a cacher alias etc).

 

What you state about would also exclude caches like "Felix's cache" regardless of which Felix is meant.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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I'm personally going to sit back with a nice cool [product name deleted] and chill out. [see, the product name wasn't necessary, you get the picture without it!]

 

 

no, i don't get the idea....

 

lets see what that might be...air conditioned room, alcoholic drink, non-alcoholic drink, ice cream, ice pack...or perhaps is something "cool" in the sense that is an admired aesthetic of attitude, behavior, comportment, appearance and style?

 

I take it to mean that they're gonna sit back with a nice cool beer and chill out. How anyone else takes it is largely immaterial to me since that's how the story works best in my head. It's unfortunate that you don't get the idea because an imagination is a powerful, good thing.

 

this whole thing is just plain ridiculous...as its been mentioned before if the guideline is to be followed 100% we can't even say what type of container we have hidden

 

Can I ask how you found as many caches as you have now without knowing what exact type of container you were looking for?

 

We work around this every single day. Nobody says "the cache is a 35mm Kodak film canister", they say "the cache is a 35mm film canister". People, however, do say "the cache is a small Lock&Lock Tupperware container" which I think is unnecessary and could be effectively conveyed by saying "the cache is a small plastic leftovers container". Nobody cares who made the ammo box or who used it, they care where it is and what the co-ords are to get there.

 

i have now asked twice and i am still waiting for a reply...why hasn't the person that complained been directed to appeals instead of going on a disabling binge and imposing this restriction that pretty much says "as a reviewer i am washing my hands of this aspect of the guidelines" and totally discourages any intention of communicating with the reviewer

 

Do you know that they weren't directed to appeals and this was the result as handed down by appeals? I wonder if you can ask this all you want and you simply aren't entitled to the answer, and thus, won't ever get one.

 

The reviewers aren't washing their hands of this aspect of the guideline, they just aren't going to be cornered into making a blank statement about all aspects of the guideline to appease those who demand it. Instead, they're going to judge your listing (and your listing alone) based on the current guidelines as they continue to work toward getting your listing published.

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Unfortunately brands become engrained in our language. Terms like hunt Tupperware in the woods gives people a clear image because the brand is so old and string that 99.9% of the people know what it is. The cache container is a small lock and lock. Most of us know that is a container with four flaps that fold down to secure the lid. Kleenex and band aid are more brands the are used in every day use but they to are brand names. So under the new enforcement level of the guidelines in Ontario the trifecta of taboo would be "The cache is a small lock and lock container originally stashed with a pack of kleenex and a pack of band aids". Until recently this was harmless. Now it is packed full of disallowed content. Now this listing would read "The cache is a small plastic container that may or may not be used to store food items originally stashed with facial tissue and pack of self-adhesive bandages containing dressings.

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I take it to mean that they're gonna sit back with a nice cool beer and chill out. How anyone else takes it is largely immaterial to me since that's how the story works best in my head. It's unfortunate that you don't get the idea because an imagination is a powerful, good thing.

 

i have imagination, the things i listed are all coming from a rich imagination

 

 

Can I ask how you found as many caches as you have now without knowing what exact type of container you were looking for?

 

We work around this every single day. Nobody says "the cache is a 35mm Kodak film canister", they say "the cache is a 35mm film canister". People, however, do say "the cache is a small Lock&Lock Tupperware container" which I think is unnecessary and could be effectively conveyed by saying "the cache is a small plastic leftovers container". Nobody cares who made the ammo box or who used it, they care where it is and what the co-ords are to get there.

 

you just don't get the point do you?

 

it has nothing to do with how/if/when i found the caches i found, and nothing to do with the enjoyment I draw from it

 

 

Do you know that they weren't directed to appeals and this was the result as handed down by appeals?

I wonder if you can ask this all you want and you simply aren't entitled to the answer, and thus, won't ever get one.

 

Aaahm…no, I don’t know, that is why I was asking

 

and based on Jeremy’s answer at the event, it was not Groundspeak’s decision

 

but your second statement sure explains a lot and agrees with what I just said about “washing their hands”

it seems to be a typical attitude of ignoring to answer questions but in return we are expected to have a discussion with our reviewers….well, I hate to tell you this but ignorance is not a great encouragement for communication...if a simple question that requires a simple "yes/no" answer can't be addressed what faith do i have that any more complex issues will be addressed in a clear and concise manner instead of a c&p standard reply?

 

even the simple fact that of all 5 reviewers only Cache Drone has made a couple of replies, do the rest have any input, perhaps their participation will help clear things up, or you are the chosen spokesman?

 

 

The reviewers aren't washing their hands of this aspect of the guideline; they just aren't going to be cornered into making a blank statement about all aspects of the guideline to appease those who demand it. Instead, they're going to judge your listing (and your listing alone) based on the current guidelines as they continue to work toward getting your listing published.

 

Who said anything about making a blank statement?

It just doesn’t make sense that this guideline was in place all this time, at least for the last two years, and was not a problem and now all of a sudden it is

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I didn't bring up the issue with caching organizations, but since a couple of other posters did, it leads to an interesting question. I would consider any geocaching organization that accepts money for membership or products as a "commercial entity" as it is clear to me they are doing business. I have seen many cache pages with the name of geocaching organizations, their logos, and even links that take you to their site. My question to the original poster is this. With the recent enforcement of the guidelines, would this kind of behavior of displaying geocaching organization names, images, and links be acceptable under the guidelines present in this forum?

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I'm a fairly even-keeled dude, too, but I have to admit that arguing for something that is unnecessary seems... well, unnecessary. Makes for good TV, though! :laughing:

 

We're perhaps 60 posts in to a thread barking about a few caches that got disabled due to commercial content as a result of some whistle blowing, and while that's unfortunate, not one person has presented a legitimate argument as to why a cacher might require any business name of any sort in the description/title of their physical cache placement. (I give leeway for events, but even those are possibly not necessary)

 

Can I ask how you found as many caches as you have now without knowing what exact type of container you were looking for?

 

We work around this every single day. Nobody says "the cache is a 35mm Kodak film canister", they say "the cache is a 35mm film canister". People, however, do say "the cache is a small Lock&Lock Tupperware container" which I think is unnecessary and could be effectively conveyed by saying "the cache is a small plastic leftovers container". Nobody cares who made the ammo box or who used it, they care where it is and what the co-ords are to get there.

 

The question isn't whether it's necessary or unnecessary to mention something, because it's not necessary to mention anything. A cache works just fine without any description at all, with no name, or even without mentioning the container size (remember that "not chosen" option?). Heck, it's not even necessary to place and list the cache in the first place.

 

Tto say that "it's not necessary to mention the name of the business, so don't do it" is not an argument. If we'd be going by that, we'd have no caches around at all, because it's not necessary to place them either. Or caches with no descriptions.

 

The question is "does it make sense to mention the name of the business?" It sure does, in some cases, and in others not so much. The other question is "does the mention promote the business?" It also does that, in some cases, while in others not so much. A blanket "don't do it because the guidelines say so" doesn't make sense. Reviewers need to make a judgment call between promotional and not. Giving in and converting that to a hard rule just because someone complained is not a good solution.

Edited by dfx

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Here is the link to the Knowledgebooks on the subject

 

Where is says

 

Solicitation and Commercial Content

 

Geocaches do not solicit for any purpose. Geocaches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is intended to be a light and enjoyable family-friendly hobby, not a platform for an agenda.

Commercial caches are disallowed. As a general rule, reviewers will not publish cache pages that seem commercial. A commercial cache has one or more of the following characteristics:

It requires the finder to go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion.

It contains links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political agendas or social agendas.

It contains the logo of a business or organization, including non-profit organizations.

The name of a business or commercial product is on the cache page.

On very rare occasions, Groundspeak makes an exception for a commercial cache. Arrangements are made before placement. If your cache is commercial in any way, please contact Groundspeak for clarification about how to comply with cache listing guidelines.

 

That IS from Groundspeak, they wrote these documents for geocachers to adhere to. So Groundspeak would be the people that decided it, regardless of what you may have been told at some event in a setting where a question and answer period existed regardless of the position of the person that replied. (yes yes, I know.. bold statement on my part considering who said it)

 

When it comes to FTF prizes... there are two things of note:

1... "The FTF prize is a $x coupon" is far better than "The FTF prize is a $x coupon for {business name}". There is no need to include the business name. Period.

2... After FTF, the prize is... GONE... so why does this info have to remain on the cache page? Rhetorical, we all know it doesn't.

 

So instead of debating the semantics of this, isn't it much easier to just remove the unnecessary business name from the listing and focus on the geocaching aspect? I think we all would agree that nothing is lost in the listing by removing a specific business name and making it generic instead.

 

:cool: CD

 

When I do a search for "WalMart" it yields not 1, not 2.. but 34 CACHES in the USA with the name Walmart in the cache name.

 

Starbucks yields 15 results..

 

Blockbuster yields 18 results..

 

One reviewer cannot enforce this rule if there are hundreds and thousands of caches with business names in them.

 

The reviewer is out of line to disable them unless Groundspeak makes every reviewer disable the thousands of caches with business names in the title.

 

If it is not enforced on the other thousands that were approved and published, this reviewer does and should NOT have the authority to disable them in his area without the permission of groudspeak first.

Edited by _Wolverine

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Aaahm…no, I don’t know, that is why I was asking

 

and based on Jeremy’s answer at the event, it was not Groundspeak’s decision

 

but your second statement sure explains a lot and agrees with what I just said about “washing their hands”

it seems to be a typical attitude of ignoring to answer questions but in return we are expected to have a discussion with our reviewers….well, I hate to tell you this but ignorance is not a great encouragement for communication...if a simple question that requires a simple "yes/no" answer can't be addressed what faith do i have that any more complex issues will be addressed in a clear and concise manner instead of a c&p standard reply?

 

even the simple fact that of all 5 reviewers only Cache Drone has made a couple of replies, do the rest have any input, perhaps their participation will help clear things up, or you are the chosen spokesman?

 

CacheDrone has written 4 or 5 times in this thread to reiterate the stance of the VRs. You'll note that in each instance, the answer has pretty much been the exact same, though perhaps not as precise and detailed as you'd like. I would suggest, as CacheDrone has also already suggested in his most recent post, that should you submit a listing that doesn't work within the guidelines, you will be asked to change it to something that does fit. It really doesn't have to be any more difficult than that.

 

Am I the chosen spokesman for the VRs? Clearly that's a rhetorical question, the answer to which is no. I speak only for myself as a individual. I, clearly, have no issue vouching for the VRs and will continue to do so since it seems to me that it's easier for some people to think they can steal their shoes rather than walk a mile in them. Since the 5 Ontario Reviewers are a team, and constantly converse amongst each other likely more than the average cacher realizes, it seems logical that there is no reason why only 1 of them speaks for the group. It seems sorta silly to have all 5 make the same statement, but I'm sure they could.

 

I think you or your partner once asked in these forums something to the effect of "Why would a reviewer choose to remain anonymous?". I submit that perhaps another reason why they stay in the closet is so that they may give their own personal opinions via their personal GC account rather than those charged to them to uphold by TPTB with their reviewer account.

 

 

The reviewers aren't washing their hands of this aspect of the guideline; they just aren't going to be cornered into making a blank statement about all aspects of the guideline to appease those who demand it. Instead, they're going to judge your listing (and your listing alone) based on the current guidelines as they continue to work toward getting your listing published.

 

Who said anything about making a blank statement?

It just doesn’t make sense that this guideline was in place all this time, at least for the last two years, and was not a problem and now all of a sudden it is

 

I think this is one of those things that's only truly a problem should you choose to let it be a problem for you. It wasn't originally a problem for the VRs either, since they published the listings in question as you see them, until an individual or group chose to make it an issue and point out a perceived unfairness. Now, because fairness was demanded, we have stricter re-enforcement of the guidelines moving forward. It may seem silly, but that's what you're looking at going forward. The ire is misplaced when it is solely focused on the VRs.

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I think you or your partner once asked in these forums something to the effect of "Why would a reviewer choose to remain anonymous?". I submit that perhaps another reason why they stay in the closet is so that they may give their own personal opinions via their personal GC account rather than those charged to them to uphold by TPTB with their reviewer account.

 

Who is his partner? Just want to be clear who you are talking about.

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Unfortunately brands become engrained in our language. Terms like hunt Tupperware in the woods gives people a clear image because the brand is so old and string that 99.9% of the people know what it is. The cache container is a small lock and lock. Most of us know that is a container with four flaps that fold down to secure the lid. Kleenex and band aid are more brands the are used in every day use but they to are brand names. So under the new enforcement level of the guidelines in Ontario the trifecta of taboo would be "The cache is a small lock and lock container originally stashed with a pack of kleenex and a pack of band aids". Until recently this was harmless. Now it is packed full of disallowed content. Now this listing would read "The cache is a small plastic container that may or may not be used to store food items originally stashed with facial tissue and pack of self-adhesive bandages containing dressings.

 

For the most part, Keith, I agree. We, as individuals, when explaining the game to muggles, use verbiage like you mention. It's simpler to do so in public, and allows folks to more easily understand our awesome game. Once a muggle becomes a cacher, and looks to list on this service, they'll be asked to do so in a manner that isn't commercial.

 

The example you've given is well enough stated by writing "The cache is a small plastic sandwich sized food storage container" and place a note on the listing to the effect of "When originally placed, this cache contained various items such as bandages and tissues".

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I think you or your partner once asked in these forums something to the effect of "Why would a reviewer choose to remain anonymous?". I submit that perhaps another reason why they stay in the closet is so that they may give their own personal opinions via their personal GC account rather than those charged to them to uphold by TPTB with their reviewer account.

 

Who is his partner? Just want to be clear who you are talking about.

 

Agreed. I should have said "dfx" rather than partner. I just couldn't remember the name at the time I posted it.

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I think you or your partner once asked in these forums something to the effect of "Why would a reviewer choose to remain anonymous?". I submit that perhaps another reason why they stay in the closet is so that they may give their own personal opinions via their personal GC account rather than those charged to them to uphold by TPTB with their reviewer account.

 

 

yes, it was me that asked....but your comment makes no sense whatsoever...writing in a forum with their reviewer account can't possibly reveal who they are

 

also, replying under their personal account bears no weight to anyone...they were chosen to be part of TPTB for a reason, that is whom i want to hear an opinion/reasoning etc from, they are the ones in position of "authority" and the representatives of GC, we can talk amongst us regular members all we want, its pretty much like barking up the wrong tree and speculating

 

I think this is one of those things that's only truly a problem should you choose to let it be a problem for you. It wasn't originally a problem for the VRs either, since they published the listings in question as you see them, until an individual or group chose to make it an issue and point out a perceived unfairness. Now, because fairness was demanded, we have stricter re-enforcement of the guidelines moving forward. It may seem silly, but that's what you're looking at going forward. The ire is misplaced when it is solely focused on the VRs.

 

perhaps you missed it earlier, in the grand scheme of things i don't care really

 

what bothers me is that this has been an arbitrary decision and as a result we are going to have to learn to write up our cache listings like amnesiacs, perhaps add a bit of engrish to it and it will be fun until someone decides that caches with grammar errors and spelling mistakes are not acceptable

Edited by t4e

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The question isn't whether it's necessary or unnecessary to mention something, because it's not necessary to mention anything. A cache works just fine without any description at all, with no name, or even without mentioning the container size (remember that "not chosen" option?). Heck, it's not even necessary to place and list the cache in the first place.

 

Tto say that "it's not necessary to mention the name of the business, so don't do it" is not an argument. If we'd be going by that, we'd have no caches around at all, because it's not necessary to place them either. Or caches with no descriptions.

 

The question is "does it make sense to mention the name of the business?" It sure does, in some cases, and in others not so much. The other question is "does the mention promote the business?" It also does that, in some cases, while in others not so much. A blanket "don't do it because the guidelines say so" doesn't make sense. Reviewers need to make a judgment call between promotional and not. Giving in and converting that to a hard rule just because someone complained is not a good solution.

 

I agree with the bolded statement above 100%. I know caches that have been placed without a description, but only picture puzzles, and yet people still managed to work their way to co-ordinates and find the container. Additionally, event caches have worked quite fine with just the co-ordinates and a time to meet.

 

With specific co-ordinates to your container, it makes zero sense to mention a business. To suggest that a cache owner needs to mention a trademark or brandname to help a person equipped with a GPS and specific co-ordinates find a container anywhere in the world is a different game altogether. Letterboxing has been enjoyed for years giving landmarks instead of co-ordinates to help a person find the stash.

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I agree with the bolded statement above 100%. I know caches that have been placed without a description, but only picture puzzles, and yet people still managed to work their way to co-ordinates and find the container. Additionally, event caches have worked quite fine with just the co-ordinates and a time to meet.

 

With specific co-ordinates to your container, it makes zero sense to mention a business. To suggest that a cache owner needs to mention a trademark or brandname to help a person equipped with a GPS and specific co-ordinates find a container anywhere in the world is a different game altogether. Letterboxing has been enjoyed for years giving landmarks instead of co-ordinates to help a person find the stash.

 

You kinda missed my point there. Your and the reviewers' stance is that since it's not necessary to mention any business names in the listings for a working cache listing, people just shouldn't do it, and shouldn't argue about it. While the condition is correct, the conclusion isn't, because it's also not necessary to put anything at all in the listing for a working cache, but I don't see you or anyone else trying to tell people to just leave the description blank, because putting something there isn't necessary (which by extension you should be doing).

 

Yeah, it's not necessary to put anything in the description, but people still do, and have good reasons for doing so, even if it's something totally unrelated to the cache or its location. The same applies to mentioning businesses. It's not necessary to do so, but there's still good reasons for doing it.

Edited by dfx

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The same applies to mentioning businesses. It's not necessary to do so, but there's still good reasons for doing it.

 

Such as?

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Unfortunately brands become engrained in our language. Terms like hunt Tupperware in the woods gives people a clear image because the brand is so old and string that 99.9% of the people know what it is. The cache container is a small lock and lock. Most of us know that is a container with four flaps that fold down to secure the lid. Kleenex and band aid are more brands the are used in every day use but they to are brand names. So under the new enforcement level of the guidelines in Ontario the trifecta of taboo would be "The cache is a small lock and lock container originally stashed with a pack of kleenex and a pack of band aids". Until recently this was harmless. Now it is packed full of disallowed content. Now this listing would read "The cache is a small plastic container that may or may not be used to store food items originally stashed with facial tissue and pack of self-adhesive bandages containing dressings.

 

For the most part, Keith, I agree. We, as individuals, when explaining the game to muggles, use verbiage like you mention. It's simpler to do so in public, and allows folks to more easily understand our awesome game. Once a muggle becomes a cacher, and looks to list on this service, they'll be asked to do so in a manner that isn't commercial.

 

The example you've given is well enough stated by writing "The cache is a small plastic sandwich sized food storage container" and place a note on the listing to the effect of "When originally placed, this cache contained various items such as bandages and tissues".

 

Though tissues may suffice, the term bandages does not correctly describe a band aid. This is the kind of problem that trying to generalize with knowing exactly what you are saying can lead to misunderstandings. Someone in need of a bandage may read the listing, know they are FTF, head to the cache and only find a pack of band aids. Band aids are not going to cut it if they are looking for a bandage.

 

For those who want to know the difference, a bandage is used to hold a dressing in place. A band aid is sticky bandage with a dressing in the middle.

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The same applies to mentioning businesses. It's not necessary to do so, but there's still good reasons for doing it.

 

Such as?

 

Just take a look at some of the listings that have been disabled. But what does it matter? As long as the reason for the mention isn't to actually promote the business, it shouldn't fall under the promotional/commercial guideline.

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Unfortunately brands become engrained in our language. Terms like hunt Tupperware in the woods gives people a clear image because the brand is so old and string that 99.9% of the people know what it is. The cache container is a small lock and lock. Most of us know that is a container with four flaps that fold down to secure the lid. Kleenex and band aid are more brands the are used in every day use but they to are brand names. So under the new enforcement level of the guidelines in Ontario the trifecta of taboo would be "The cache is a small lock and lock container originally stashed with a pack of kleenex and a pack of band aids". Until recently this was harmless. Now it is packed full of disallowed content. Now this listing would read "The cache is a small plastic container that may or may not be used to store food items originally stashed with facial tissue and pack of self-adhesive bandages containing dressings.

 

For the most part, Keith, I agree. We, as individuals, when explaining the game to muggles, use verbiage like you mention. It's simpler to do so in public, and allows folks to more easily understand our awesome game. Once a muggle becomes a cacher, and looks to list on this service, they'll be asked to do so in a manner that isn't commercial.

 

The example you've given is well enough stated by writing "The cache is a small plastic sandwich sized food storage container" and place a note on the listing to the effect of "When originally placed, this cache contained various items such as bandages and tissues".

 

Though tissues may suffice, the term bandages does not correctly describe a band aid. This is the kind of problem that trying to generalize with knowing exactly what you are saying can lead to misunderstandings. Someone in need of a bandage may read the listing, know they are FTF, head to the cache and only find a pack of band aids. Band aids are not going to cut it if they are looking for a bandage.

 

For those who want to know the difference, a bandage is used to hold a dressing in place. A band aid is sticky bandage with a dressing in the middle.

 

I understand the point you're trying to make. My honest preference and suggestion would be to omit the mention of the items contained within to avoid having this exact sort of an unfortunate situation occur, but I realize that folks have kids who like the knick-knacks inside of it.

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Here's a fun one .... what happens when I mention I took the coordinates with my Garmin (or Magellan) device to demonstrate to the reviewers that I didn't use a smartphone or Google Earth :ph34r:

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Funny that caches mentioning Lock & Lock, which is a business, are still being published.

 

Technically Starfrit is the business, Lock'n'Lock is the product ....

 

Yeah, same difference. Even mentioning the slogan would be off-limits, apparently...

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Funny that caches mentioning Lock & Lock, which is a business, are still being published.

 

Technically Starfrit is the business, Lock'n'Lock is the product ....

 

The name of a commercial product is prohibited as well. So technically according to the letter of the rule that cache should not have been published if that was there when the cache was published.

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Funny that caches mentioning Lock & Lock, which is a business, are still being published.

 

Technically Starfrit is the business, Lock'n'Lock is the product ....

 

The name of a commercial product is prohibited as well. So technically according to the letter of the rule that cache should not have been published if that was there when the cache was published.

 

Then it's a good thing we have human reviewers who can recognize when something is going a little overboard.

But hey, it makes for good forum drama anyway :anibad:

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Funny that caches mentioning Lock & Lock, which is a business, are still being published.

 

Technically Starfrit is the business, Lock'n'Lock is the product ....

 

Yeah, same difference. Even mentioning the slogan would be off-limits, apparently...

 

Yeah I was being a little sarcastic with that one.... couldn't help it :laughing:

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Hello Canada Forum,

 

"Guidelines" may indeed be subject to interpretation; the goal of a Reviewer is to publish caches that from their perspective are listed with the "spirit" of the Listing Guidelines in mind.

If a cache listing includes the name of a commercial entity/business and it is deemed to be in violation of the Listing Guidelines by a Reviewer, it may be actioned.

The same applies if the listing appears to contain promotional/agenda based content; it too may be actioned by a Reviewer.

 

If a Player avoids the use of any commercial/business/promotional/agenda content within their cache listing, this obviously reduces/eliminates the likelihood that such content will cause an issue.

 

Yes - the interpretation of "Guidelines" vs. "Rules" does suggest the possibility of variance from the perspective of both Player and Reviewer.

This nuance embraces the "People/Human" element of the game; it also opens the door to differences of opinion as well as agreement.

 

On occasion(!) I have actioned a cache listing and my interpretation of the Listing Guidelines has differed from that of the owner.

In such cases, I have made efforts to identify to the owner what my concerns were; many times I will indicate which area/section of the Listing Guidelines I applied to arrive at my decision.

If a Reviewer makes a decision that is deemed not to be in "good faith" in respect to the Listing Guidelines, then a Player ultimately has the option to contact Groundspeak.

 

I believe that CacheDrone has acted in "good faith" with the Listing Guidelines in mind; from my perspective as primarily a Player and secondarily a Reviewer - this is preeminent.

 

Well there you have it - my second post in the Canada forums!

 

CacheShadow

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