Internet company may "drown out" GPS Signals -- The end of Geocaching! :)

[+_Wolverine]

Article in the Colorado Springs Gazette:

 

http://www.gazette.com/articles/worried-115082-force-signals.html

 

The Air Force is worried that a proposed commercial broadband Internet system could make the nation’s Global Positioning System receivers go on the blink.

 

Virginia-based LightSquared plans to combine a satellite network with thousands of ground transmitters to provide mobile Internet services. Air Force Space Command in Colorado Springs fears those ground transmitters, which operate at a frequency near the one used by its navigation satellites, could drown out GPS signals.

 

“Can you imagine if we have to change a half billion receivers?” Space Command’s vice-commander, Lt. Gen. Michael Basla asked at a Wednesday luncheon sponsored by the Greater Colorado Springs Chamber of Commerce.

 

Jeff Carlisle, LightSquared’s vice president for regulatory affairs, said his firm is working with the Air Force to test its transmitters and to figure out ways to avoid interference with GPS receivers. But Carlisle noted that those receivers could be part of the problem because they pick up radio frequencies not assigned to GPS.

 

A quick lesson: Radio waves fly through the atmosphere like the sound waves from a singer. If two singers are right next to each other belting out different songs, the loudest one wins.

 

Space Command oversees the nation’s GPS satellites, which are operated from a control station at Schriever Air Force Base on the plains east of Colorado Springs. Those satellites send out relatively weak signals, which Basla compared to a 15-watt light bulb seen from a distance of 3,000 miles.

 

That’s Basla’s worry. The Internet transmissions would be louder than the GPS signals, making it so GPS receivers can’t get the information they use to navigate. So, essentially, LightSquared could drown out GPS signals.

 

Basla said if the interference is widespread it would cause “significant consequences to our nation.”

 

The GPS signal was first used exclusively by the military, but has embedded itself in every sector of the modern world, with hundreds of millions of users.

 

Most people know about the handy in-car navigation systems the satellites enable. Less known, but more important, is how the timing signal from GPS satellites makes cell phone systems, ATMs and even the Internet itself possible.

 

Billions have been spent on the satellite system and the Pentagon is midway through a $5.8 billion plan to launch new satellites and improve ground stations.

 

The Federal Communications Commission, which regulates use of the nation’s radio waves, gave LightSquared the preliminary go-ahead for the system in January, with a final decision due in June. To get full approval, LightSquared must present a plan that addresses GPS interference.

 

LightSquared sent a team, including Carlisle, to Peterson Air Force base this month to meet with Space Command GPS experts about their concerns. Basla said a testing program set to begin in April will test whether the company’s Internet transmissions cause interference.

 

There’s big money on the line for LightSquared.

 

It has spent $1 billion on its satellite system and has plans to spend another $14 billion on ground-based transmitters, Carlisle said.

 

The company’s plan is to provide Internet services that are available everywhere in America by using the combination of cellular towers and satellite signals.

 

“It will be like having a high speed data network in your pocket,” Carlisle said.

 

Read more: http://www.gazette.com/articles/worried-115082-force-signals.html#ixzz1HU0Xlk2l

[jholly]

Old news. See the thread in the tech forum.

[+StarBrand]

Old news and really much ado over nothing.

[+NeecesandNephews]

With all the people using GPS to navigate nowdays (not just Geocache) I seriously doubt this is going to happen like it has been predicted.

[+sbell111]

In my opinion, the following paragraph makes this a non-issue:

The Federal Communications Commission, which regulates use of the nation’s radio waves, gave LightSquared the preliminary go-ahead for the system in January, with a final decision due in June. To get full approval, LightSquared must present a plan that addresses GPS interference.

[+Walts Hunting]

Its always a good idea to search the forums before payinga news item that is that old.

[+ngrrfan]

Its always a good idea to search the forums before payinga news item that is that old.

While this is true for the forums.... it was the first time it had been in the local newspaper. The OP had good intentions in bringing it to our attention, heck I would have done the same except I saw the forum topic about a week ago.

[+hzoi]

In my opinion, the following paragraph makes this a non-issue:

The Federal Communications Commission, which regulates use of the nation’s radio waves, gave LightSquared the preliminary go-ahead for the system in January, with a final decision due in June. To get full approval, LightSquared must present a plan that addresses GPS interference.

 

I hope for everyone's sake that there is no interference, or that the system can be retooled without much additional investment -- otherwise, LightSquared took a $1 billion crap shoot and lost.

[+JBnW]

In my opinion, the following paragraph makes this a non-issue:

The Federal Communications Commission, which regulates use of the nation’s radio waves, gave LightSquared the preliminary go-ahead for the system in January, with a final decision due in June. To get full approval, LightSquared must present a plan that addresses GPS interference.

 

I hope for everyone's sake that there is no interference, or that the system can be retooled without much additional investment -- otherwise, LightSquared took a $1 billion crap shoot and lost.

I agree, but I'm guessing you know the wisdom of "Get the permit FIRST!!! THEN spend the money".

[7rxc]

I know what the Air Force solution would be if it did not test well, a few smart bombs on the command and control sites. Problem solved... ask the Colonel who's getting a demo.

 

Of course one must consider the Cable TV industry which was allowed to use a spectrum of frequencies on the condition is was kept inside their cable distribution system... but which leaks as it ages / wears. They are retrofitting most of it to fibre optics as quickly as they can. Partly for even more channels, much for quality and extra services like internet etc. but a lot of it is what they often have regarded as nuisance interference complaints... like leaks on the ELT frequencies like 121.5 mhz... We used to track them down when they got bad... (Hams assisting Industry Canada because we like signal hunting/tracking for fun). Businesses can and do monitor themselves of course, with government oversight of course... but so can the users... and since radio related problems are the realm of the international bodies that regulate such uses, it will come down to who has the most votes... US is one big voice, but only one vote, and that vote could be opposite to what the company wants to do. They might have to pay the replacement costs for the GPS system if they get their way... from the Air Force hardware to individuals... world wide... we play with relatively cheap GPSrs..

try a survey system, or the Airline flight GPSrs... even the military handhelds are much more expensive...

 

There will be no interference problem, I'm betting. From what I've read, Garmin had a problem with the Chirp frequency...

It was good for Stateside use... but had to get through some technical approvals in Canada... our allocations were already in use, so they had to test for problems as a non conforming use first... interesting in light of the fact of where the devices originate... one would have thought they might have seen that problem in advance... I'm assuming that similar restrictions exist elsewhere as well. Not insolvable, but something that has to be done.

 

Doug 7rxc

[+sbell111]

In my opinion, the following paragraph makes this a non-issue:

The Federal Communications Commission, which regulates use of the nation’s radio waves, gave LightSquared the preliminary go-ahead for the system in January, with a final decision due in June. To get full approval, LightSquared must present a plan that addresses GPS interference.

 

I hope for everyone's sake that there is no interference, or that the system can be retooled without much additional investment -- otherwise, LightSquared took a $1 billion crap shoot and lost.

I agree, but I'm guessing you know the wisdom of "Get the permit FIRST!!! THEN spend the money".

Yup. Locally, there is a car dealer who owns a few dealerships and puts up lame ferris wheels on his property. Recently, he bought some property in the town I live with the intention to do the same. He had a little pity party when he was made aware that he will not be erecting his 'trademark' ferris wheel. He'll probably appeal the decision, but he has virtually no chance of success.

[+hzoi]

In my opinion, the following paragraph makes this a non-issue:

The Federal Communications Commission, which regulates use of the nation’s radio waves, gave LightSquared the preliminary go-ahead for the system in January, with a final decision due in June. To get full approval, LightSquared must present a plan that addresses GPS interference.

 

I hope for everyone's sake that there is no interference, or that the system can be retooled without much additional investment -- otherwise, LightSquared took a $1 billion crap shoot and lost.

I agree, but I'm guessing you know the wisdom of "Get the permit FIRST!!! THEN spend the money".

Yup. Locally, there is a car dealer who owns a few dealerships and puts up lame ferris wheels on his property. Recently, he bought some property in the town I live with the intention to do the same. He had a little pity party when he was made aware that he will not be erecting his 'trademark' ferris wheel. He'll probably appeal the decision, but he has virtually no chance of success.

 

Oh, absolutely. But we're in a bad economy, so although my first thought is of course "DUH," my second thought is "hope it works out so folks don't lose their jobs."

[+Walts Hunting]

Let us not forget that the Military and the FAA use GPS. They will not let anything interfere with it.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Let us not forget that the Military and the FAA use GPS. They will not let anything interfere with it.

 

 

I found the basic premise, and how it was presented pretty shoddy...

 

"A quick lesson: Radio waves fly through the atmosphere like the sound waves from a singer. If two singers are right next to each other belting out different songs, the loudest one wins.

 

Space Command oversees the nation’s GPS satellites, which are operated from a control station at Schriever Air Force Base on the plains east of Colorado Springs. Those satellites send out relatively weak signals, which Basla compared to a 15-watt light bulb seen from a distance of 3,000 miles.

 

That’s Basla’s worry. The Internet transmissions would be louder than the GPS signals, making it so GPS receivers can’t get the information they use to navigate. So, essentially, LightSquared could drown out GPS signals."

 

I suppose the reporter was trying to dumb down the explanation so that those that know nothing about GPS might be able to understand it but the way it was explained is quite misleading.

 

If one compares "two singers" to two radio stations, the "louder", or higher powered station doesn't "drown out" the weaker station even when the transmitters are in close proximity. That's simply because each station operates on it's own frequency.

 

The same can be said for Global Positioning Systems. GPS signals use several frequency bands (designated as L1 to L5) and the Military/FAA use a different band than we do. The Military/FAA isn't going to let some internet company interfere with the GPS frequency they use, and wouldn't be impacted by interference produced on one of other frequency bands.

[+tozainamboku]

Let us not forget that the Military and the FAA use GPS. They will not let anything interfere with it.

 

 

I found the basic premise, and how it was presented pretty shoddy...

 

"A quick lesson: Radio waves fly through the atmosphere like the sound waves from a singer. If two singers are right next to each other belting out different songs, the loudest one wins.

 

Space Command oversees the nations GPS satellites, which are operated from a control station at Schriever Air Force Base on the plains east of Colorado Springs. Those satellites send out relatively weak signals, which Basla compared to a 15-watt light bulb seen from a distance of 3,000 miles.

 

Thats Baslas worry. The Internet transmissions would be louder than the GPS signals, making it so GPS receivers cant get the information they use to navigate. So, essentially, LightSquared could drown out GPS signals."

 

I suppose the reporter was trying to dumb down the explanation so that those that know nothing about GPS might be able to understand it but the way it was explained is quite misleading.

 

If one compares "two singers" to two radio stations, the "louder", or higher powered station doesn't "drown out" the weaker station even when the transmitters are in close proximity. That's simply because each station operates on it's own frequency.

 

The same can be said for Global Positioning Systems. GPS signals use several frequency bands (designated as L1 to L5) and the Military/FAA use a different band than we do. The Military/FAA isn't going to let some internet company interfere with the GPS frequency they use, and wouldn't be impacted by interference produced on one of other frequency bands.

Well it isn't as if the loud singer is singing in the ultrasonic range so you can't hear him no matter how loud he signs. LightSquared is using a frequency that is close to the L-Band that GPS uses. Your cheap consumer GPS device isn't that selective in tuning out the frequencies it doesn't care about - especially when it was previously sure to be a weak signal there if it was there at all. Now there is a loud signal right near by and to use the singer analogy, while one is a baritone and the other a tenor, there are still some notes both are capable of singing. But all is not lost. In this case you know beforehand the song the quieter one is signing. The louder singer is still annoying, interfering with the singer who is almost whispering, but because you know the song you can still pick out some words despite the interruption. This is how GPS works. Each satellite encodes its information using its own peculiar song - the pseudo random code - and because your receiver knows the code for each satellite it can usually pick it out from a lot of background noise. But if the loud singer is loud enough (or there are enough other singers) the noise could still drown out all of the whispering singer's song; then your GPS will stop working. There are several thing the loud singer can do to interfere less. For example, he can sing in spurts so that during the quiet time you can hear enough of the whisperer to understand what he is singing, or he can project his voice in a certain direction so it only affects listeners in a small area and elsewhere the quieter singer can still be heard.

 

The military GPS is unlikely to be affected because it not only uses a different frequency but the song is much longer and complex, making it harder to drown it out completely. Aviation users might not be too affected if LightSquared uses antennas that aim their signal away from the sky.

Edited March 24, 2011 by tozainamboku

[+Don_J]

Its always a good idea to search the forums before payinga news item that is that old.

 

The news article is dated 3/23/11, and was in response to comments made earlier that day by an Air Force LT Col at a Chamber of Commerce luncheon.

 

If anything, blame the LT Col for heightening the paranoia.

[+steve p]

Yup. Locally, there is a car dealer who owns a few dealerships and puts up lame ferris wheels on his property. Recently, he bought some property in the town I live with the intention to do the same. He had a little pity party when he was made aware that he will not be erecting his 'trademark' ferris wheel. He'll probably appeal the decision, but he has virtually no chance of success.

I live in the next town from you and was glad that the guy got turned down for his ferris wheel. Thankfully there are still a few towns who refuse to allow businesses to turn their property into a "carnival."

[+Too Tall John]

Heh...

 

All I can think about when I see the title of this thread is "Boy, if they're right, all the arguments about Power Trails, Fake Logs, and Swag Quality are gonna look pretty silly."