what is the Groundspeak.com intended definition of available in winter?

January 14, 2011

I've only been caching for a few months now and I have gotten several different answers to this question. Some think it means it is available in snow. Some think it means the area is accessible in winter as there are areas here that close in winter. Some think it means you can find it in several feet of snow as it must be waist high. So what is the official definition?

1k · January 14, 2011

I don't believe that there is anything official. Just say.. when there is snow on the ground can I get it. At a ski area that may be 10' up, at a place that gets 6" of snow that may be a foot up.

I would guess it means high enough that you do not normally have to dig, based on your weather.

Edited January 14, 2011 by BlueRajah

January 14, 2011

I don't believe that there is anything official. Just say.. when there is snow on the ground can I get it. At a ski area that may be 10' up, at a place that gets 6" of snow that may be a foot up.

I would guess it means high enough that you do not normally have to dig, based on your weather.

So you think it means available in snow not that the area is accessible in the winter.

18.9k · January 14, 2011

This has been debated for many years. However, about 4 years ago Jermey (owner of Groundspeak) jumped in a forum thread and stated that he intended it to mean that the cache was still findable in winter conditions like heavy snowfall. It was not meant to indicate that the land area was open or accessible in the wintertime. I was arguing the latter. I'll look for a link......

January 14, 2011

That would be great. I was hoping that it meant it was able to be located in snow. I would love that links I can begin the re-education campaign.

18.9k · January 14, 2011

I think the problem is in the unfortunate word: "Accessible" in winter

It would cause a lot less confusion if it was: "Findable" in winter conditions

1k · January 14, 2011

It would make no sense to geocaching for it to mean "You can access the area but the cache would be buried under 5 feet of snow"

The purpose would be to filter caches that you can actually find, or not find.

January 14, 2011

GC2MA2R Is a new hide just released here in Wisconsin by a very prolific family who uses the available in winter icon in the way I believe it was not intended. They claim it was for areas that are closed in winter of which there are a couple here. So they note almost all their hides as to if they are winter friendly or not. I am hoping to get an official definition if not at least a confirmation of its original intent.

38.2k · January 14, 2011

I've always used to attribute to mean that the cache is reasonably findable with snow on the ground.

There are very few places that are illegal to enter in the winter, so most caches are technically "accessible" in the winter if you have the proper equipment.

3.3k · January 15, 2011

I really do not think the shovel/pointy thing guideline applies to seasonal snow, but I could be wrong. Around here, where we have plenty snow in the mountains during the winter, I believe the attribute is typically used to mean you can get to the cache GZ and then you are on your own.

19k · January 15, 2011

Unless you are thinking that you can get other cachers to change the attributes on their caches based on what you hear here, it is much more useful to simply understand how the various hiders have interpreted the attribute, isn't it? Or, are you wondering only so you know how to apply it to your own caches?

The same question, by the way, has been debated on our local (Minnesota) forum in the past. Around here, it is pretty much understood to mean that you can probably find the cache in deep snow... or more to the point: that it is not hidden on the ground. More likely in a tree.

January 15, 2011

Well my hope for this was to get solid proof that the attribute was intended to mean that the hide was not on or under the ground therefore it should be able to be found in the snow without too much additional challenge. I could then use this information to begin a re-education campaign.

5.3k · January 15, 2011

I don't think that you are going to get "solid proof".

Attributes are somewhat subjective by their very nature.

January 15, 2011

Well the others are pretty straight forward...dogs allowed, poison plants, thorns...it really is just this one that causes the issue.

19k · January 15, 2011

Well the others are pretty straight forward...dogs allowed, poison plants, thorns...it really is just this one that causes the issue.

Yup. But you're not very likely to change that. It isn't just "them".

January 16, 2011

it really is just this one that causes the issue.

Nah, there's "kid-friendly" too.

Does that mean:

1. A kid can find it (and would have fun), OR
2. There is something a kid would like nearby, and professional basketball player dad can find it

?

January 16, 2011

Being from Northern Ontario, (we get a @!%t load of snow) all of our local cachers use the available in winter attribute and apply it to any cache that is at least above the usual snow height which means it is up high. Similar to what Knowschad has mentioned for Minnesota a state in which we have done more caches than in our own province, it is nice to know when it says available in winter, It is.

18.9k · January 16, 2011

It would make no sense to geocaching for it to mean "You can access the area but the cache would be buried under 5 feet of snow"

The purpose would be to filter caches that you can actually find, or not find.

I'd totally accept your argument except that we have a lot of wildlife areas around here that are closed and inaccessable in the winter - meaning you would not be able to find caches there in the winter - no matter how much snow was around.

(However, I know the generally accepted meaning is the snow thing)

Bad wording in the description for that attribute.

January 19, 2011

So I guess there is no original intent comments anywhere we could reference? It is just. Frustrating that everyone takes it to mean different things. Could we add a winter friendly attribute?

January 19, 2011

I would think that if an area was closed during a certain time(winter) that the caches affected should be "temp disabled" and the description should state that the land is closed from x day to x day.

I just recently put out some caches and the first log pointed out that while I hadn't used the "available in winter" attribute she looked for them anyway. So I went back and added that attribute to them, so around here it means they are above the snow basically.

January 22, 2011

Anyone else have any other opinions? I so far see most people are in agreement that the attribute means able to be found in snow...so why are people using it the wrong way?

18.9k · January 22, 2011

Anyone else have any other opinions? I so far see most people are in agreement that the attribute means able to be found in snow...so why are people using it the wrong way?

It is the wording on the add attributes page - "Available in Winter" - Does that mean "The area is available for you to hunt the cache during winter months?" Or "The cache is above the depth of the snow and thus available".

I know what most folks believe but the wording doesn't reflect that clearly.

38.2k · January 22, 2011

It would make no sense to geocaching for it to mean "You can access the area but the cache would be buried under 5 feet of snow"

The purpose would be to filter caches that you can actually find, or not find.

I'd totally accept your argument except that we have a lot of wildlife areas around here that are closed and inaccessable in the winter - meaning you would not be able to find caches there in the winter - no matter how much snow was around.

(However, I know the generally accepted meaning is the snow thing)

Bad wording in the description for that attribute.

Is that closed as in illegal to enter or closed as in there is no staff and the roads and parking lots are closed off and/or not plowed? If it's the latter I still think it can be argued that the caches are accessible in winter. It simply takes more work to access them.

Some state parks in Vermont are "closed" for the winter, complete with closed sign at the entrance and a ten ft high pile of snow in front of it piled up by the local plow drivers. Still many people use them for showshoeing and cross country skiing. They simply find a different place to gain access, even if it means parking on a side road outside the park boundary. It is not illegal for them to do so.

I think the number of places that are actually illegal to enter in the winter are probably so few that it would not merit an attribute to cover the situation.

Edited January 22, 2011 by briansnat

January 23, 2011

I have to question all these posts as I'm just as confused after reading them all as I was when I started.. This is my opinion, cemetary caches state- daylight hours only. church caches state not on sunday. some state after dark is best. why would it be so difficult to state - area is closed between x date & x date, enter by foot only or cache disabled. Available in winter should mean - not on ground or in a spot that snow doesn't fall on it. a general rule could state- available in winter means you can get it with <12" of snow. If that was the way the rule was stated you would have an idea if you have a chance or not depending on how much snow you have.

18.9k · January 23, 2011

I have to question all these posts as I'm just as confused after reading them all as I was when I started.. This is my opinion, cemetary caches state- daylight hours only. church caches state not on sunday. some state after dark is best. why would it be so difficult to state - area is closed between x date & x date, enter by foot only or cache disabled. Available in winter should mean - not on ground or in a spot that snow doesn't fall on it. a general rule could state- available in winter means you can get it with <12" of snow. If that was the way the rule was stated you would have an idea if you have a chance or not depending on how much snow you have.

Change the wording to "findable despite snow on ground" instead of "available in winter". That would solve it in my opinion. I get what is generally acceptd - it just isn't worded that way right now.

January 24, 2011

I agree that a change is needed. It is clear that there are many different interpretations of what this attribute means.

January 25, 2011

I wonder if Jeremy still reads these forums. I would be grateful for a comment from him on this subject.

18.9k · January 25, 2011

I wonder if Jeremy still reads these forums. I would be grateful for a comment from him on this subject.

More likely he would see something in the feedback area. Start something - I'll throw some votes behind it.

January 25, 2011

I did start one there about adding a winterfriendly attribute...do you think I should start a please define the available in winter attribute?

18.9k · January 25, 2011

I did start one there about adding a winterfriendly attribute...do you think I should start a please define the available in winter attribute?

Not define - just change the wording on it to make clear. Something like "findable despite snowfall" or "findable when ground covered by snow" or "off ground - findable in snow"

January 25, 2011

Ok ill do it right now.

January 25, 2011

http://feedback.geocaching.com/forums/75775-geocaching-com/suggestions/1409739-change-the-available-in-winter-wording-to-somethin

This is the link to the feedback post if you agree please vote.

38.2k · January 25, 2011

I did start one there about adding a winterfriendly attribute...do you think I should start a please define the available in winter attribute?

Not define - just change the wording on it to make clear. Something like "findable despite snowfall" or "findable when ground covered by snow" or "off ground - findable in snow"

Or just "snow friendly" . Just received my vote.

January 25, 2011

http://feedback.geocaching.com/forums/75775-geocaching-com/suggestions/1409739-change-the-available-in-winter-wording-to-somethin

This is the link to the feedback post if you agree please vote.

Thanks for the link. I voted because I would like to see a change to the wording for that attribute.

January 27, 2011

http://feedback.geocaching.com/forums/75775-geocaching-com/suggestions/1409739-change-the-available-in-winter-wording-to-somethin please vote for this so we can get this fixed.

18.9k · January 27, 2011

Small victory!! It is under review!!

January 27, 2011

Yep. But please still add your votes so they know how strongly this is needed.

what is the Groundspeak.com intended definition of available in winter?

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