Mystery or puzzle or traditional

[+mwahppets]

I am thinking of making some cahes, the containers will be the puzzle, ie to get to the log and find a clue for the bonus cache you will have to work out how to open the container, ie they will have secret way of opening.

 

So would the caches be recognised as a puzzle cache or a tradional cache as the puzzle isnt finding the coordinates as they will be posted as usual.

[+Bear and Ragged]

Unknown.

 

State 'Cache is at the co-ords, you have to work out how to open the cache' or such.

 

Gives those that don't like puzzles a chance to give it a miss.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Bear and Ragged

[+briansnat]

I would list them as a puzzle cache. Even thought they are at the posted coordinates, there is still a trick involved to get at the logbook.

[+TABjuggler]

I would consider that a puzzle cache.

[+hzoi]

Another vote for puzzle cache. Though we have several in our area that are like this, and they're listed as traditionals.

 

Write it up as a puzzle cache, specifying that it is at the posted coordinates but there's a puzzle involved, and submit it. If your local reviewer thinks it should be a traditional, he or she will let you know.

[+Harry Dolphin]

I'd put it in as a tough traditional. Mystery caches are mysteries for figuring out the coordinates.

[+dfx]

my vote is on traditional as well. if it's at the coordinates, it's a traditional. if opening the container is a challenge, up goes the difficulty rating.

[+narcissa]

This fits under the Mystery/Puzzle criteria set out by the guidelines.

[+narcissa]

Mystery caches are mysteries for figuring out the coordinates.

 

The guidelines aren't that specific about Mystery/Puzzle caches. There's nothing in the guidelines that says the puzzle has to give you the coordinates to the cache.

[+dfx]

This fits under the Mystery/Puzzle criteria set out by the guidelines.

what part of the guidelines makes you figure that?

 

The guidelines aren't that specific about Mystery/Puzzle caches. There's nothing in the guidelines that says the puzzle has to give you the coordinates to the cache.

they don't say it has to, but they sure as heck talk a lot about "puzzles to determine the coordinates".

 

 

 

 

 

i hereby predict the violent death of this thread.

[+briansnat]

my vote is on traditional as well. if it's at the coordinates, it's a traditional. if opening the container is a challenge, up goes the difficulty rating.

 

For a cache to be traditional it has to be at the posted coordinates, but not all caches at the posted coordinates are necessarily traditional. Challenge caches are just one example of caches at the posted coordinates that are not considered traditional. Many letterbox hybrids also fit this description. Once you add an element that rises beyond simply finding the cache and signing the log it most likely should be listed as a mystery/puzzle.

[+dfx]

For a cache to be traditional it has to be at the posted coordinates, but not all caches at the posted coordinates are necessarily traditional. Challenge caches are just one example of caches at the posted coordinates that are not considered traditional. Many letterbox hybrids also fit this description. Once you add an element that rises beyond simply finding the cache and signing the log it most likely should be listed as a mystery/puzzle.

challenge chaches are explicitly mentioned in the guidelines.

 

letterbox hybrids (which are at the coordinates) aren't letterbox hybrids because there's an "element that rises beyond simply finding the cache and signing the log". they're a letterbox hybrid because they're both a letterbox and a geocache. you still just find the container and sign the log.

 

personally i'd say it depends on what kind of puzzle it is. if the puzzle can be solved right there, in the field and on the fly after finding the container, i'd list it as traditional. if the puzzle requires previous research, or finding certain other caches first, i'd list it as mystery. unfortunately the OP didn't give any more details.

Edited August 5, 2010 by dfx

[+narcissa]

For a cache to be traditional it has to be at the posted coordinates, but not all caches at the posted coordinates are necessarily traditional. Challenge caches are just one example of caches at the posted coordinates that are not considered traditional. Many letterbox hybrids also fit this description. Once you add an element that rises beyond simply finding the cache and signing the log it most likely should be listed as a mystery/puzzle.

challenge chaches are explicitly mentioned in the guidelines.

 

letterbox hybrids (which are at the coordinates) aren't letterbox hybrids because there's an "element that rises beyond simply finding the cache and signing the log". they're a letterbox hybrid because they're both a letterbox and a geocache. you still just find the container and sign the log.

 

personally i'd say it depends on what kind of puzzle it is. if the puzzle can be solved right there, in the field and on the fly after finding the container, i'd list it as traditional. if the puzzle requires previous research, or finding certain other caches first, i'd list it as mystery. unfortunately the OP didn't give any more details.

 

Letterbox hybrids have their own guidelines. They should require the use of a GPS and contain a stamp, but do not need to be at the posted coordinates. Letterbox hybrids can incorporate additional clues, like real letterboxes.

 

The guidelines call mystery/puzzles the "catch-all" of cache types, and provide examples of common uses, but they do not prohibit on-site puzzles from the category. Ottawa has a few container puzzles, all published as puzzle - not traditional - caches. I can think of one that is a puzzle involving sliding pieces of wood that eventually unlock, and several birdhouses with secret compartments built in. If the cache box itself *is* a puzzle, it seems quite reasonable to call it a puzzle cache.

 

The guidelines for the mystery/puzzle category are obviously open-ended, and the category encompass a wide assortment of ideas well beyond "answer this to find the coordinates." The limitation on posted coordinates addresses those placed too far from the final - it does not say that the posted coordinates can ever be too close.

 

In purely practical terms, calling it a puzzle is a head's up to the seeker, but also prevents the owner from having to deal with nonsense logs about not being able to open the container.

[+Lovejoy and Tinker]

If it is listed as a traditional, and the finder finds the location, finds the cache, but then has to solve a puzzle to open the box to get to the log book to sign it, could this not be seen as an ALR?

 

Just curious as to whether the ALR rule comes into play here or not. Because for a trad cache you would normally expect that once you got to GZ and found the box you would be entitled to sign the log and claim the find without jumping through any more hoops or accomplishing any more tasks.

[+redsox_mark]

If it is listed as a traditional, and the finder finds the location, finds the cache, but then has to solve a puzzle to open the box to get to the log book to sign it, could this not be seen as an ALR?

 

Just curious as to whether the ALR rule comes into play here or not. Because for a trad cache you would normally expect that once you got to GZ and found the box you would be entitled to sign the log and claim the find without jumping through any more hoops or accomplishing any more tasks.

 

It may sound like splitting hairs, but I think the distinction is an ALR is a task additional to signing the log. In this case, since opening the box is part of the find itself (to access the log), it would not be an ALR.

 

My personal view - while either traditional or puzzle may be acceptable per the guidelines, I prefer puzzle, as it alerts the finder there is more to this cache than simply finding the box and signing the log. With a traditional, some people will try and find it without the cache page details, and be surprised they can't simply open the box.

[+palmetto]

In purely practical terms, calling it a puzzle is a head's up to the seeker, but also prevents the owner from having to deal with nonsense logs about not being able to open the container.

 

Yes, to that, and it protects the container (somewhat) from brute force...those who feel entitled to their traditional find, and aren't prepared to deal with any closure more complicated then a lock and lock.

[+Lovejoy and Tinker]

It may sound like splitting hairs, but I think the distinction is an ALR is a task additional to signing the log. In this case, since opening the box is part of the find itself (to access the log), it would not be an ALR.

Not splitting hairs at all, appreciate your view on it, couldn't make my mind up whether having to solve a physical puzzle after finding the cache was an additional task or not. But I see your point, once you get to the log there's nothing else to do.

[+briansnat]

For a cache to be traditional it has to be at the posted coordinates, but not all caches at the posted coordinates are necessarily traditional. Challenge caches are just one example of caches at the posted coordinates that are not considered traditional. Many letterbox hybrids also fit this description. Once you add an element that rises beyond simply finding the cache and signing the log it most likely should be listed as a mystery/puzzle.

challenge chaches are explicitly mentioned in the guidelines.

 

letterbox hybrids (which are at the coordinates) aren't letterbox hybrids because there's an "element that rises beyond simply finding the cache and signing the log". they're a letterbox hybrid because they're both a letterbox and a geocache. you still just find the container and sign the log.

 

personally i'd say it depends on what kind of puzzle it is. if the puzzle can be solved right there, in the field and on the fly after finding the container, i'd list it as traditional. if the puzzle requires previous research, or finding certain other caches first, i'd list it as mystery. unfortunately the OP didn't give any more details.

 

Of course challenges and LB hybrids have their unique situations. I was just pointing them out to show examples of where a cache can be at the posted coords and not be a traditional. There are other cases as well. For instance a locked ammo box where you need to find a certain TB to obtain the combination.

 

Still, a geocacher should be able to find a traditional and sign the log without any additional hocus pocus.

Once a puzzle is introduced to the cache, regardless of where the puzzle is in the train of things (outside of the hide itself), it becomes a puzzle cache.

 

The point of the puzzle designation is to alert the searcher that there is something more involved than simply finding the cache and signing the log. It's why ALR caches were designated as puzzles when they were allowed.

 

I don't care for puzzles. I like to find a cache, sign the log and move on. For this reason I often filter puzzle caches from my PQs. I know I'd be annoyed if I found a supposed traditional cache and be expected to solve a puzzle after I found it in order to sign the log.

[+Quossum]

I vote for Puzzle. A cache where you really, really have to read the description page to get it needs to be something besides a traditional.

 

Here's one just like the OP describes; it even comes right out and says in big red letters that the cache IS at the coordinates. GCR9Q2.

 

As other have noted, this keeps the container from being attacked with brute force (maybe!) and also filters the cache out for those who don't care to solve some tricky riddle or whathaveyou.

 

--Q

[+mwahppets]

Thanks, in all balance i will go for Puzzle listing. Just need to sort out the caches!

[+niraD]

I've found a number of mystery/puzzle caches that were located at the posted coordinates. According to the guidelines, a mystery/puzzle cache "often involves complicated puzzles that you will first need to solve in order to determine the coordinates" and "for many caches of this type, the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location". Note that "often" is not "always", and "many" is not "all". There can also be an on-site puzzle of some sort.

 

But with that said, I'm also aware of locked caches that were listed as traditional caches, with a difficulty rating of 5 stars because they required "specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment" to pick the lock, since no key was available.

[+BigFurryMonster]

Advice:

 

List it as Traditional and call it "Puzzle".