Urban Safety

[+GeoGeeBee]

Or is the fear of something bad happening when out and about greater over there when in fact the risk is no greater?

 

It's interesting that I don't think you would ever hear Brits talk about going out with pepper spray or any other form of self defence equipment. Not seriously anyway.

 

 

I think the answer to the quoted question is yes. The risk, as far as I can tell, is about the same here as it is in England.

 

As for the second part... I chalk it up to an American tradition of self-reliance, and the fact that our open spaces are so large that it might take a while for help to arrive.

 

(I've heard that a big difference between England and the U.S. is that Americans think a hundred years is a long time, and Englishmen think a hundred miles is a great distance.)

[+lachupa]

Maybe we just like being scared. I don't know, are horror movies as big over there?

 

I think you're probably in more danger at a football game when things get out of hand.

(by "football" of course I mean soccer)

 

just to clarify

 

I'm pretty sure that out caching I'm more in danger of getting stung or tripping over something while I'm looking down and walking than any human threat.

 

also if I so much as see a picture of poison ivy I get a rash

 

I have pepper spray though - the bear kind - camping in Yellowstone. Much like a gun though I wonder if I would have the presence of mind to snatch it up and fire it if a bear actually attacked.

 

I'd probably end up pepper spraying myself and also getting mauled by a bear.

no I don't have any guns - some people just should not be armed, I'm one of those people

[+briansnat]

now to answer if USA is more dangerous than those other countries i have experienced...personally i think it is and that just because people are allowed to carry guns, and that is on the back of your mind at all times

there are stats that show the level of violence and crime around the world and USA is up there

is it directly related to legally being allowed to carry guns?...maybe, maybe not...personally i think it does have something to do with it to a certain extent

 

I'm no gun nut. Never owned one, probably never will. But I assure you that a very small percentage of violent crime in the US is committed by those who carry guns legally. In fact there are statistics that show where people are allowed to carry concealed weapons, the level of crime and violence is often reduced.

 

The US has a high crime rate for one reason, drugs.

 

Still, by some measures the crime rate in the US is lower than many other countries. As far as percent of population that has been a victim of crime, the US is lower than Australia, France, New Zealand, the UK and even Canada. That means that for most Americans, it is pretty safe here. The bulk of the crime here is confined to the cities, and within the cities usually certain sections of those cities.

Edited August 5, 2010 by briansnat

[hoosier guy]

(I've heard that a big difference between England and the U.S. is that Americans think a hundred years is a long time, and Englishmen think a hundred miles is a great distance.)

 

LOL

[JohnX]

I believe it is very difficult to purchase a handgun in the UK which might explain things. Also, the UK is commonly refereed to as the "Nanny State" in the US. The US is a large country so naturally there will be more talk and news of guns and weapons. About the UK, I think of soccer riots, ASBOs and the drunken yobs who pushed me in front of a taxi in Glasgow. For reference, I am a UK citizen.

 

Edited to add: I am a UK citizen but am an American.

Edited August 5, 2010 by JohnX

[+Lovejoy and Tinker]

(I've heard that a big difference between England and the U.S. is that Americans think a hundred years is a long time, and Englishmen think a hundred miles is a great distance.)

 

LOL

 

Yes, I liked that one too

[+DanOCan]

The bulk of the crime here is confined to the cities, and within the cities usually certain sections of those cities.

 

That seems to be my observation. The biggest concern I have when caching in urban areas of the U.S. is that you can't really tell from a map which areas are which. I know when routing between two points I've had my Nuvi take me through some areas that I would have considered "no go" zones. You can bet part of my personal safety plan is to not stop for any caches along a route in those circumstances!

[+Lovejoy and Tinker]

Maybe we just like being scared. I don't know, are horror movies as big over there?

 

I think you're probably in more danger at a football game when things get out of hand.

(by "football" of course I mean soccer)

 

Now you come to mention it, I would probably have to think twice about going to a soccer match. Certainly I would not be as comfortable doing that as I would be going out caching in the dark on my own.

 

Which brings us back to perception again, as I know (with my logical hat on) that the situation at football matches is a far cry from what it was in the '70s and 80's and you rarely hear of soccer riots these days, whereas once it was commonplace.

But it is probably in the subconscious now that a soccer match could be a dangerous place to be.

Besides, I don't like crowds much - get anxiety - which is perhaps why I lake caching on the moors, wide open spaces, very few people.

 

The only time I have felt scared, and I mean really scared, is during a trip to Belfast in the early 80's, when there were soldiers on the streets and at checkpoints carrying guns. But I came to no harm in a week spent there.

 

I did come to harm when working at a 24hr petrol station a few years later when an armed robber raided the station at 2am. I was shot with a 12 bore. Thankfully superficial wounds and only 10 pellets left in my arm as a reminder. Wasn't expecting that.

 

So perhaps it is more about perception than reality and we are actually much more likely to face real danger in the most unlikely of circumstances and when we least expect it.

 

On that basis the OP should be okay, as she is anticipating danger and therefore will naturally look after herself as she is aware of the dangers.

And as someone else has said, the danger is most likely to come from the least expected source (tripping and falling) and least likely to come from the most expected source (human attack).

 

An interesting discussion, thanks everyone.

[+t4e]

 

I think you're probably in more danger at a football game when things get out of hand.

(by "football" of course I mean soccer)

 

 

what about the hockey games here?

 

i'm sure you're familiar with the "i went to a fight and a hockey game broke out"

 

 

The US has a high crime rate for one reason, drugs.

 

Still, by some measures the crime rate in the US is lower than many other countries. As far as percent of population that has been a victim of crime, the US is lower than Australia, France, New Zealand, the UK and even Canada. That means that for most Americans, it is pretty safe here. The bulk of the crime here is confined to the cities, and within the cities usually certain sections of those cities.

 

 

yes, the drugs will do it

 

this is one of the better sites for stats, and not because Canada is way down at the bottom

but it sure shows that USA is not really amongst the most dangerous places either

 

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_...ders-per-capita

Edited August 5, 2010 by t4e

[+3doxies]

now to answer if USA is more dangerous than those other countries i have experienced...personally i think it is and that just because people are allowed to carry guns, and that is on the back of your mind at all times

there are stats that show the level of violence and crime around the world and USA is up there

is it directly related to legally being allowed to carry guns?...maybe, maybe not...personally i think it does have something to do with it to a certain extent

there are countries where there is a lot of violence but people carry guns illegally

 

its not a question of "being in the wrong place at the wrong time" anymore it becomes a question of "what if someone gets ticked off for whatever reason and pulls a gun on me?"

 

Brainsnat touched on this in his response, but just to develop it a bit further...

 

If I read your thought correctly, you seem to be making a link between "allowed to carry guns" (ie, legal carry according to the laws of the particular state) and heightened level of danger. I would make a small but very important distinction here: the danger comes not from those who legally possess and carry, but from those who possess and carry illegally. A very, very small percentage of weapons-related violence (hence, the danger arising from that violence) in the US is perpetrated by those who legally own and possess a firearm. And in the area particularly germaine to this discussion (danger/violence encountered when caching in an urban environment), the percentage of weapons-related violence due to those illegally possessing a firearm is astronomical. So, really, your second observation (RE "countries where there is a lot if violence but people carry guns illegally) is actually the correct observation for the US urban environment. There is a huge difference.

[+northernpenguin]

Perhaps we're not hearing from people in other, risky countries because they didn't survive their last cache outing ......

[+t4e]

 

Brainsnat touched on this in his response, but just to develop it a bit further...

 

If I read your thought correctly, you seem to be making a link between "allowed to carry guns" (ie, legal carry according to the laws of the particular state) and heightened level of danger. I would make a small but very important distinction here: the danger comes not from those who legally possess and carry, but from those who possess and carry illegally. A very, very small percentage of weapons-related violence (hence, the danger arising from that violence) in the US is perpetrated by those who legally own and possess a firearm. And in the area particularly germaine to this discussion (danger/violence encountered when caching in an urban environment), the percentage of weapons-related violence due to those illegally possessing a firearm is astronomical. So, really, your second observation (RE "countries where there is a lot if violence but people carry guns illegally) is actually the correct observation for the US urban environment. There is a huge difference.

 

this is what i said:

 

is it directly related to legally being allowed to carry guns?...maybe, maybe not...personally i think it does have something to do with it to a certain extent

 

i don't think its the root of all evil but there is a small link between the two, in the sense that while a gun is intended for personal protection, and most use it as such, there's certain people carrying one that would use it for the wrong reasons...so all i'm saying really is that the fact that it is legal to carry a gun it does make it easier to commit a crime as opposed to a country where is illegal, sure if someone really wants one they could get it but not as easy as walking in a store down the street

 

i hope this clarifies my point of view

Edited August 5, 2010 by t4e

[+Team Cotati]

 

How does that work when you are in an area that you have never visited before?

 

Ask some locals, if you know any. If not, I would suggest looking around the area and see if you notice any "Geocaching term - usual suspects" in the area before diving under the nearest bush. The park I was talking about that I asked about, when I drove by afterwards, I noticed a needle exchange box. That pretty much summed up what I had been told.

 

I'd strongly advise that folks like you not cachealongaroute that is more than 10 miles distant from your place of residence.

 

Thanks for all of the helpful hints.

[+DragonflyTotem]

geocaching in urban areas doesn't pose any greater dangers than going to the corner store to get milk

I respectfully disagree with that statement. A walk to the corner store is short and in a neighborhood you are very familiar with. Demographically speaking, cachers tend to be middle class or upper middle class individuals who would tend to live in lower crime neighborhoods.

 

Urban caching takes you to different neighborhoods that are less familiar than your own neighborhood and will sometimes have higher crime rates. The trip to the corner store will typically be done on a sidewalk, but a cacher will be going through alleyways, behind trees & bushes, and other out-of-the way places that are also favored by muggers and rapists. Some of the out-of-the-way places are also great locations for inconspicuous drug use. (Those syringe wrappers on the ground are not from sloppy diabetics and those little baggies you see are not from other cachers.)

 

Also, while caching you're carrying a very hock-able electronic device and you are busy looking at it or at possible GZ's. Walking to the store your head is up, your hand is empty, your attention isn't divided so you are more likely to notice trouble coming.

 

BTW, a lot of really good and simple advice on this thread.

 

Absolutely agree with your comments. I'm actively involved locally as a neighborhood watch coordinator and with a crime prevention steering committee. Once a quarter I spend 10 hours riding with an officer. And each time we've wandered into a discussion about geocaching (usually from me checking for caches on my iphone while the officer is on break). And each and every time the end result has been that the officer has shared some interesting things about some areas where caches are located. For example, known drug activity, gang activity, etc. And I wouldn't have necessarily suspected that based on seeing the area. And don't even get me started about approaching a cache hide at a pay phone or bus stop in those areas -- based on what I've heard I probably won't ever seek any of those urbans again.

 

And this probably could be its own thread, but if I'm going to the grocery store, I'm also carrying my concealed weapon (for which I have a permit). I don't feel comfortable doing the same when caching because I have lots in my hands most of the time, and am in situations where I may dislodge my weapon (or worse). And it is a LOT harder to have the same level of awareness that I have when simply walking into the store from the parking lot vs. geocaching in it where I'm not looking for potential threats as much. But I have been places geocaching when after I've arrived and been there a few minutes I ponder the sanity of my being there, by myself.

[+Ecylram]

 

its not a question of "being in the wrong place at the wrong time" anymore it becomes a question of "what if someone gets ticked off for whatever reason and pulls a gun on me?"

 

That's pretty much a non-issue in the US. Legal carriers of concealed weapons have a violent crime rate that is virtually zero - much lower than the rate for the population at large.

 

A large percentage of the shootings (don't have the stats handy) is either drug related or "crimes of passion" with someone they know. So if you're not in gang, haven't ticked off a gang, don't do drugs, and keep the spouse happy your odds of getting shot are really quite low.

[+Ecylram]

But I have been places geocaching when after I've arrived and been there a few minutes I ponder the sanity of my being there, by myself.

 

I had that experience myself last night. I went to a park in a lower-middle income neighborhood at dusk. About 100 yards away were two drug dealers hanging out waiting for clients (I presume). I looked very out-of-place in that park (in clothing choice, age, & ethnicity) and they stopped their activities and started watching me. The cache wasn't a 'cache & dash' so at that point I decided to leave.

[+MightyParagon]

 

Brainsnat touched on this in his response, but just to develop it a bit further...

 

If I read your thought correctly, you seem to be making a link between "allowed to carry guns" (ie, legal carry according to the laws of the particular state) and heightened level of danger. I would make a small but very important distinction here: the danger comes not from those who legally possess and carry, but from those who possess and carry illegally. A very, very small percentage of weapons-related violence (hence, the danger arising from that violence) in the US is perpetrated by those who legally own and possess a firearm. And in the area particularly germaine to this discussion (danger/violence encountered when caching in an urban environment), the percentage of weapons-related violence due to those illegally possessing a firearm is astronomical. So, really, your second observation (RE "countries where there is a lot if violence but people carry guns illegally) is actually the correct observation for the US urban environment. There is a huge difference.

 

this is what i said:

 

is it directly related to legally being allowed to carry guns?...maybe, maybe not...personally i think it does have something to do with it to a certain extent

 

i don't think its the root of all evil but there is a small link between the two, in the sense that while a gun is intended for personal protection, and most use it as such, there's certain people carrying one that would use it for the wrong reasons...so all i'm saying really is that the fact that it is legal to carry a gun it does make it easier to commit a crime as opposed to a country where is illegal, sure if someone really wants one they could get it but not as easy as walking in a store down the street

 

i hope this clarifies my point of view

 

It does, but it is harder to get a license to carry a weapon than it is to get a driver's license. They don't just hand them out to people. Also, a person has to meet certain criteria to even buy a gun from a dealer, much less carry it (they could buy it from a private person, of course--still have to have a license to carry it).

 

Only three states that I know of do not require licensing to carry a concealed weapon. The others do. The fact remains: licensed toters ARE NOT the ones commiting bank robberies and muggings. Why on earth would a criminal go through all the licenseing nonsense just to use his gun in a robbery or home invasion?

[+cw1710]

...I prefer my .357 Ruger LCP, but I don't just carry it caching, I rarely leave the house without it.

 

May be a misstype there: the LCP comes as .380 only (and is a very nice pocket gun), while its wheelgun cousin, the LCR, now comes in .357. The more important part of this statement, though, is the logical extension to the last part - whatever the choice of personal defense tool (firearm, pepper spray, croquet mallet, or just a super-annoying personality), it needs to become part and parcel of your normal daily routine.

Yep, I messed that one up. It was late and I was half asleep!

 

I don't carry mine everywhere because I am scared or paranoid but because I am supposed to. I'm in law enforcment and our policy manual says you have the duty to be armed off duty. Thats just common sense anyways because there are a lot of people out there that I have locked up that would love to have a go if they ran into me on the streets. Here lately we have had some new-to-the-area cachers hiding caches in a very sketchy side of town and people were immediately wanting me to escort them over there. I made sure to let the cache owners know to put some type of warning on the cache page for unsuspecting travelers because they are very close to interstate exits.

Edited August 6, 2010 by cw1710