NGS Surveyor Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 All, Several of us are trying to learn more about the USC&GS bench marks (vertical control) from c1903 to c1920. Many of these disks are flat, quite thick and have Bench Mark abbreviated as “B.M.”. Later disks have it spelled out as “BENCH MARK”. At least some of the “B.M.” variety have only two rows of factory stamping. The “BENCH MARK” variety seem to have three rows of factory stamping, adding “FOR INFORMATION WRITE TO THE SUPERINTENDENT, WASHINGTON D.C.”. Most have a single “slash” as the center symbol, although a circle appeared in the center about 1907. A circle with a slash inside the circle appeared about 1916 and convex disks appeared c1916. In publications from 1909 and 1914, a square center symbol was mentioned, but I have never seen a photo or drawing of one of these. If you have recovered a USC&GS bench mark from this era, please post a link on this thread, ideally with a photo. Thanks, GeorgeL NGS Quote Link to comment
+pgrig Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 How about MY0338, from 1923? It's of the circle-with-slash variety. -Paul Quote Link to comment
+RazorbackFan Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) Most of the disks I've found of that era are USGS. I tried doing some searching on the Geocaching Database and came up with some hits, but apparently my search didn't find them all because it didn't catch any of AndyPhoto's finds. Oh well its a good start... These aren't my finds - credit to all of the original finders out there... M 6 - 1906 R - 1906 J 3 - 1907 N 4 - 1907 P 4 - 1907 841 3320 TIDAL 6 - 1911 W 2 - 1911 C 10 - 1911 LINTON - 1913 877 1450 TIDAL 32 - 1913 Edited December 31, 2009 by RazorbackFan Quote Link to comment
andylphoto Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) I've recovered several of the later ones that I can think of, all from 1917. QL0164 QL0163 and RK0171, which I recovered about a foot underground with the metal detector, in two pieces: The last one is now marked in the database as destroyed, and I have the disk in my possession. I can post a better picture later with less dirt, though the face is kind of scarred. The face appears basically flat, though on careful inspection it is just slightly convex. Edited December 30, 2009 by andylphoto Quote Link to comment
+Klemmer Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) Here's a flat "B.M." one from 1924 (DX2221). I guess the surveyors kept them in the bag for a while after they were "officially" no longer in use (1920?). Yes, I know that the description is "J1 Reset", but the location is right, and the stamping called out on the datasheet matches. There used to be a J1 1906 (DX2220), but the whole building was moved (!), and the surveyor (a Mr. Floyd Hough) kept the same designation at the new building location, but with a new date. A bit unusual, I suppose. One wonders if Floyd (or his descendents) have the "J1 1906" disc. Perhaps DX2220 should be declared destroyed. I guess I knew it was unusual to be flat, so I took this pic also. It really is flat. I'll also look for more in my database. Edited December 31, 2009 by Klemmer & TeddyBearMama Quote Link to comment
+RazorbackFan Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 (edited) Exceeded the number of images allowed in one reply. So here's more... A 27 - 1915 D 27 - 1915 B 10 - 1916 Y 17 - 1916 W 1 - 1917 P 11 - 1918 P 19 - 1919 B 21 - 1919 Z 33 - 1920 J7 1920 Edited December 31, 2009 by RazorbackFan Quote Link to comment
+Harry Dolphin Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Tough parameters! Searched through all my 'bench mark' finds, and these are the closest I can come up with... QF0712 LY0630 LW0121 Quote Link to comment
+billwallace Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 These three from 1920 - No squares FV0004 - 1920 FV0345 - 1920 FV0380 - 1920 Quote Link to comment
southpawaz Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Here are two I recovered this summer, two lines of factory text and a slash only in the center, with "B.M." at the bottom. FS0570 A 1: ES0020 I 4: While the datasheets for both these marks indicate unknown monumentation dates, the C&GS Annual Report progress maps indicate that FS0570 was likely set in 1908-1909, and ES0020 in 1909-1910. Quote Link to comment
Papa-Bear-NYC Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 (edited) Here's my contribution. stamped 1913 (the "3" looks like a "5") but with no circle around the horizontal line: LW1577 Edited December 31, 2009 by Papa-Bear-NYC Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 All, Did I actually link one? !! Has any one seen another of these old ones that show a cross - horizontal slash with a slightly shorter vertical bar - anyplace other than several number strings set in 1913 in Montana from Butte through Helena and on into Cascade County? kayakbird http://img.geocaching.com/benchmark/lg/963...2f9a7ffef3f.jpg http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=rx0324 Quote Link to comment
Okie'sKid Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 (edited) George, I'm sure yer already aware of this popular piece of brass at the Flagstaff RR station. I''m replying more to learn how to post to a Forum than anything else. Unless KayakBird held a gun to my head and made me post something once that I've since forgotten (did I mention short-term memory problems?), this is my first post. http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=fq0230 http://picasaweb.google.com/josandersatmt....455649467605314 I'm not sure this is working, but in case it is, here's what looks to be another flat one in Sayer, OK. http://picasaweb.google.com/josandersatmt....456201667127218 Found these two on last Route 66 trip. Happy New Year, John ps: MMMMMMMMMMM, tried two different ways to insert actual image instead of just link. Neither worked. Am I just too dumb to do it or do you have to be a premium member to actually insert images? Cheers Edited December 31, 2009 by Okie'sKid Quote Link to comment
Papa-Bear-NYC Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 (edited) George, I'm sure yer already aware of this popular piece of brass at the Flagstaff RR station. I''m replying more to learn how to post to a Forum than anything else. Unless KayakBird held a gun to my head and made me post something once that I've since forgotten (did I mention short-term memory problems?), this is my first post. ... ps: MMMMMMMMMMM, tried two different ways to insert actual image instead of just link. Neither worked. Am I just too dumb to do it or do you have to be a premium member to actually insert images? Cheers Hi here's how to insert an image: 1) go to your GC log for the station (your first link). http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=fq0230 2) click on the link for the picture in your log This: FQ0230 3) Copy the picture url from the location bar of you browser. 4) click on th little tree above this window (it says "Insert Image" when you put your mouse on it) 5) paste the url you saved in the place requested. (make sure you don't duplicate the "http://") Voilla! BTW: Nice find, very nice picture! Edited December 31, 2009 by Papa-Bear-NYC Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 (edited) My turn to try a direct photo link. It takes a right click to open up the drop down for the 'Paste' function. Another B.M. with a vertical bar - cast or chiseled - factory or field? MEL Edited January 1, 2010 by kayakbird Quote Link to comment
Okie'sKid Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 George, I'm sure yer already aware of this popular piece of brass at the Flagstaff RR station. I''m replying more to learn how to post to a Forum than anything else. Unless KayakBird held a gun to my head and made me post something once that I've since forgotten (did I mention short-term memory problems?), this is my first post. ... ps: MMMMMMMMMMM, tried two different ways to insert actual image instead of just link. Neither worked. Am I just too dumb to do it or do you have to be a premium member to actually insert images? Cheers Hi here's how to insert an image: 1) go to your GC log for the station (your first link). http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=fq0230 2) click on the link for the picture in your log This: FQ0230 3) Copy the picture url from the location bar of you browser. 4) click on th little tree above this window (it says "Insert Image" when you put your mouse on it) 5) paste the url you saved in the place requested. (make sure you don't duplicate the "http://") Voilla! BTW: Nice find, very nice picture! Papa-Bear, Thanx for the help. Do you ever get out west? Cheers, Okie'sKid Quote Link to comment
andylphoto Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Wow...you learn something new every day. I've been posting on this board for almost 4 years, and I never paid attention to the icons up there. I've just always typed in the UBB code manually when playing with quotes or adding images or links. He he. Guess I've just been polishing my typing skills instead. Thanks for the explanation Papa Bear! Quote Link to comment
Papa-Bear-NYC Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) Wow...you learn something new every day. I've been posting on this board for almost 4 years, and I never paid attention to the icons up there. I've just always typed in the UBB code manually when playing with quotes or adding images or links. He he. Guess I've just been polishing my typing skills instead. Thanks for the explanation Papa Bear! To be honest, I don't use the icons either. But it's a good way to get started and I didn't want to get into the intricacies of the tags. But it's nice when you do use the icons that you can see what codes it puts into your message. Edited January 1, 2010 by Papa-Bear-NYC Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Wow...you learn something new every day. I've been posting on this board for almost 4 years, and I never paid attention to the icons up there. I've just always typed in the UBB code manually when playing with quotes or adding images or links. He he. Guess I've just been polishing my typing skills instead. Thanks for the explanation Papa Bear! To be honest, I don't use the icons either. But it's a good way to get started and I didn't want to get into the intricacies of the tags. But it's nice when you do use the icons that you can see what codes it puts into your message. Anyone, One more trick, please - how DO you put in those nice little underlined PIDS that links to the Geocache log? MEL Quote Link to comment
+RazorbackFan Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Posting a link is very similar to posting a picture. Go to the benchmarks page on geocaching and copy the url. Then when you make your post type in the text that you want to be the link (e.g. AA9114). Then highlight the text that you typed and click the "Insert Link" icon (looks like the planet earth with a chain link in front of it) in the same tool bar that you use for inserting pictures. That will pop up a box where you can paste the url of the benchmark. Hope that helps. RazorbackFan Quote Link to comment
Papa-Bear-NYC Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) Wow...you learn something new every day. I've been posting on this board for almost 4 years, and I never paid attention to the icons up there. I've just always typed in the UBB code manually when playing with quotes or adding images or links. He he. Guess I've just been polishing my typing skills instead. Thanks for the explanation Papa Bear! To be honest, I don't use the icons either. But it's a good way to get started and I didn't want to get into the intricacies of the tags. But it's nice when you do use the icons that you can see what codes it puts into your message. Anyone, One more trick, please - how DO you put in those nice little underlined PIDS that links to the Geocache log? MEL OK, here's what you do This time I'll give the information without using the icons 1) go to the log you're interested in. Let's say it's "Buttermilk" a historic mark in Westchester county. I forget the PID so I look it up on the Geopcaching Benchmark page. I find it's LX4113. So I go there, highlight the url in the browser location bar and hit control-C 2) Paste it into your message (hit Control-V). You now have the raw URL in your note, like this (I put it in quotes so the system won't try to interpret it). "http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=LX4113" 3) Now put the tags around it. The start-url tag is "", then the name, then the end-url tag "" I put "Buttermilk" as the name, but you could as well put "LX4113" or anything. So you get this [url=http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=LX4113]Buttermilk[/url] I put it in a "code" box so you can see it all. If you just put it directly into the message, you get the finished result: Buttermilk Edit: Sorry - I misspelled "Buttermilk". Duh. Edited January 2, 2010 by Papa-Bear-NYC Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Thanks Papa-Bear-NYC, I'll give it a try with another of the early flat disks that have a cross in the center. On this one the vertical bar sure looks to be a field modification with a cold chisel. Others in this year string may be cast. Maybe Okie'sKid will volunteer to take his snow shovel and go check a couple. I'm snow-bound in Moab, Utah but hope to be in tall cactus in a couple of weeks. kayakbird SS0903 That is amazing!! Quote Link to comment
Okie'sKid Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 (edited) Thanks Papa-Bear-NYC, I'll give it a try with another of the early flat disks that have a cross in the center. On this one the vertical bar sure looks to be a field modification with a cold chisel. Others in this year string may be cast. Maybe Okie'sKid will volunteer to take his snow shovel and go check a couple. I'm snow-bound in Moab, Utah but hope to be in tall cactus in a couple of weeks. kayakbird SS0903 That is amazing!! Volunteer for WHAT!!??!! It's raining outside right now!! Edited January 2, 2010 by Okie'sKid Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 I think that this is what we are looking for! Found description for L2 on P. 179 (185/334 in Google) of Special Publication #18. Photo from Sidetrippers' 9/8/2007 log. QB0898 The first one listed in Sp Pub #18 was H6 in Weiser, ID which was reset in 1938 as AE9968. K2 was also set in Baker City, OR but does not have a PID. kayakbird Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 This one is in Minnesota. Flat, set horizontally in a sandstone building sill. In a 1904 run from St Cloud MN to Watertown SD. Current DATASHEET has the correct date: QP0586 HISTORY - 1904 MONUMENTED CGS Very nice photo by JLHowie 2 Mar 2003 QP0586 Should be some more there in the Heartland. Quote Link to comment
TillaMurphs Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 We only have one in this category: TR0780 in Port Angeles, Washington: Quote Link to comment
NGS Surveyor Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 All, I am finally in the process of updating my on-line paper on USC&GS and NGS survey marks. I have included all the info. from this link, but if you have any other rare finds or any that are not mentioned in my paper, (or found any errors or omissions in my paper), please comment now! Thanks, GeorgeL NGS Quote Link to comment
+Bullygoat29 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Is there a link to your paper? Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Is there a link to your paper? bullygoat29 & all, NGS Surveyor does have a post somewhere with the parameters that he is interested in - a search on his threads truncates a year ago. I'm sure that he will bring it back up. In the meantime this 1914 (now destroyed) mark in Missoula County, Montana is the earliest one that I know about in the GC logs that spells out 'BENCH MARK. RY0027 And this one in Powell County, Montana may be one of the last set, as part of a sting, that is stamped 'B. M.'. RX0392 If anyone has run across the Special Publication for the Precise Level Net that may have started west from Butte, Montana in 1914 I would really appreciate a link. Note: Apparently some previously set USGS points were leveled to and became part of the Alpha 14 string in Missoula County.. RY0001 All above GC logged & photos by CallawayMT Thanks, kayakbird Quote Link to comment
+LSUFan Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) Is there a link to your paper? One of my favorite articles by George is at the link below. You can then go to the Bottles, Pots, and Pans: Marking the Surveys of the U.S. Coast & Geodetic Survey and NOAA link there http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/web/about_ngs/history/indexhUSCGS.shtml Edited February 18, 2011 by LSUFan Quote Link to comment
+LSUFan Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) If anyone has run across the Special Publication for the Precise Level Net that may have started west from Butte, Montana in 1914 I would really appreciate a link. Note: Apparently some previously set USGS points were leveled to and became part of the Alpha 14 string in Missoula County.. I don't know, but maybe this can help. http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs_specpubs/data_rescue_cgs_specpubs.html and this may be the one you are specifically wanting http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs_specpubs/QB275U35no181914.pdf Edited February 18, 2011 by LSUFan Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 If anyone has run across the Special Publication for the Precise Level Net that may have started west from Butte, Montana in 1914 I would really appreciate a link. Note: Apparently some previously set USGS points were leveled to and became part of the Alpha 14 string in Missoula County.. I don't know, but maybe this can help. http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs_specpubs/data_rescue_cgs_specpubs.html and this may be the one you are specifically wanting http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs_specpubs/QB275U35no181914.pdf Thanks LSUFan, On a quick scroll through the index I didn't see anything other than SP Pub #18 that pertains to Montana. Snooping around in SP #18 (1903 to 1911 level runs), I did come up with another candidate for the earliest flat disk stamped 'BENCH MARK' EY0758 Since it is PFF's photo, maybe he can figure out the year set. Yup, I got distracted and won't get back to my primary task until tomorrow. kayakbird Quote Link to comment
TillaMurphs Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Here is one more. PA0474 Quote Link to comment
TillaMurphs Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 George, Are you updating the Bottles, Pots and Pans... paper or is it a different document? Thanks, Quote Link to comment
NGS Surveyor Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 All, I'm updating "Bottle, Pots, and Pans..." and any help would be appreciated. I hope to finish the first draft of the updated version today, so please send any comments ASAP. Thanks, GeorgeL NGS Quote Link to comment
+DragonsWest Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 GU2149 This disk appeared almost 4 inches in diameter, quite a difference from most I've found. Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 GU2149 This disk appeared almost 4 inches in diameter, quite a difference from most I've found. Dragonswest, The factory lettering on your 1908 USGS disk is quite similar to that seen on some of the submissions to a former thread here Gold-colored USGS disks southpawaz photo I believe that they were that larger diameter also. Seems like USGS changed metallurgy and lettering as much as CGS/NGS did. kayakbird Quote Link to comment
southpawaz Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 While this thread was started to discuss USC&GS disks rather than USGS disks, I'll venture off topic a bit since kayakbird brought my name up. The USGS was using 4 inch disks in that time frame. AZcachemeister and I last month recovered ET0856 NEW RIVER, a USGS station monumented with a 4 inch disk circa 1900. It is a bit different than yours, however, as it is aluminum and flat rather than domed. My recollection is that the "golden" disk in the photo that kayakbird cited was 3 inches, not four. On a sad side note, the Lookout Tower that sat above ESCUDILLA was recently lost in the Wallow Fire. Quote Link to comment
+DragonsWest Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Ah, sorry. Here's a USC&GS I found on a RR bridge abutment in mid-May. This is south of Castroville, CA, on abandoned Southern Pacific RR bridge built in 1914. Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 (edited) Doing a bit of scouting for an upcoming road trip and came up with this photo TL0269 logged by CallawayMT of an early 'BENCH MARK' spelled out disk. Listed as an UNK date but with a 1914 GOOD history: TL0269 HISTORY - 1914 GOOD NGS Hope that it is still there on Thursday. kayakbird Edited July 5, 2011 by kayakbird Quote Link to comment
TillaMurphs Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 What a great photograph. Quote Link to comment
+DragonsWest Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 So clean and well preserved! Is this one in a museum display? Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 So clean and well preserved! Is this one in a museum display? A little later (I think) on Kurt's early morning trip across US 2. TL0270 Maybe scoured clean by cold, drifting snow. kayakbird Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Another UNK, but early Montana string. RX0627 The last PID (maybe because it in Granite County, not Missoula Co) of the '13' string, all of which have UNK dates; but it is bracketed by 1914's in both the '12' and '14' strings. kayakbird Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 This one isn't all that old (barely OTM) but I like it because it is my first flared stem station (as shown in Fig. 32, P 14 in the below link): http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/web/about_ngs/history/Survey_Mark_Art.pdf BROWN and it has a great view to the west towards which I will be hiking tomorrow on one of the twice monthly guided hikes organized by the Buenos Aires NWR. kayakbird Quote Link to comment
TillaMurphs Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 This one isn't all that old (barely OTM) but I like it because it is my first flared stem station Nice job KB. A really cool, and rare, flared stem and you have the first recorded recovery since monumentation! Quote Link to comment
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