RazorbackFan

Bill thanks again for posting this! I finally got time to go looking for some of these yesterday. Having the datasheets made it like shooting fish in a barrel! AR15 AR72 AR07 AR75 AR76 AR90 AR89 AR03 AR04

Nice find, thanks! I've already verified some of the aluminum disk locations using google street view. I'll have to go out and make some "real world" recoveries on these and create some waymarks for them!

While researching different areas, I've run across a few benchmarks that are now indoors. Guess it makes answering the question about satelite observability easy to answer! How about one inside a library behind some books? (FH0276) Here are a few more inside a building that I'm gonna try and go after one day: CS3037 & CS3036

Would this mark be considered destroyed if the underground mark is still in place? The 1957 report states that the surface disk was set above the underground mark. Are either the surface mark or underground mark considered equivalent for tri stations, since they are both at the exact same point?

Posting a link is very similar to posting a picture. Go to the benchmarks page on geocaching and copy the url. Then when you make your post type in the text that you want to be the link (e.g. AA9114). Then highlight the text that you typed and click the "Insert Link" icon (looks like the planet earth with a chain link in front of it) in the same tool bar that you use for inserting pictures. That will pop up a box where you can paste the url of the benchmark. Hope that helps. RazorbackFan

Exceeded the number of images allowed in one reply. So here's more... A 27 - 1915 D 27 - 1915 B 10 - 1916 Y 17 - 1916 W 1 - 1917 P 11 - 1918 P 19 - 1919 B 21 - 1919 Z 33 - 1920 J7 1920

Most of the disks I've found of that era are USGS. I tried doing some searching on the Geocaching Database and came up with some hits, but apparently my search didn't find them all because it didn't catch any of AndyPhoto's finds. Oh well its a good start... These aren't my finds - credit to all of the original finders out there... M 6 - 1906 R - 1906 J 3 - 1907 N 4 - 1907 P 4 - 1907 841 3320 TIDAL 6 - 1911 W 2 - 1911 C 10 - 1911 LINTON - 1913 877 1450 TIDAL 32 - 1913

Great find! Although many of the USGS disks aren't included in the NGS database or geocaching.com, you can find where many of these are by checking out the topographical maps. The one you found is on the Madera Quadrangle. From its location on the map I'm guessing it is located on the Northwest abutment of a bridge over a small creek/stream on O'Neal Road. Click this link to see the topographic with your benchmark on it. When the map comes up select USGS Topo from the pull down menu at the top right of the map and then zoom in all the way to see the map. The red push pin is the location of the coordinates that you gave. The BM 457 tells you there is a benchmark located at the X that is 457 feet above sea level. If you scroll the map North you'll notice there is another benchmark located just to the Southeast of the intersection of O'Neal Road and Bellview Road. I have found many benchmarks in my area using this method. It is a little more challenging, because you don't have a written description to help you out. You can log your finds on Waymarking.com in the U.S. Benchmarks group. It is a sister site of geocaching.com and you can sign in using your geocaching.com username and password. Welcome to benchmarking! I hope this is the first of many finds for you! -RF

Interesting observation. There are 2,535 marks in the NGS database in the state of California that have a PID that begins with the letter A. Only 1,118 of those have adjusted positions. However your odds improve if you narrow the search to marks whose PIDS start with AC. There are 119 of those of which 103 have adjusted positions.

What you want to look for is one with adjusted coordinates (as oposed to scaled coordinates). A nearby example is JS3866. Should be a short drive from you down to the airport parking lot. Best yet people have found it and posted pictures for you on the geocaching website. Most commercial handheld GPSrs won't do much better then 12-15 feet of accuracy given an unobstructed view of the sky. The military and certain government entities are the only ones that have full access to the GPS system that allows them to get subfoot accuracy. Happy hunting and welcome to benchmarking!

I was reading an article linked to in another post about the first transcontinental level line run across the US in the late 1800's. I decided to pull up the data sheet for the first mark in the line: Benchmark "A" - PID JV3199. I got a pretty big chuckle reading the latest recovery by the NGS made in July of this year. The types of tools used by the agencies have really changed over the years, but I didn't remember seeing this tool mentioned in the article... RECOVERY NOTE BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 2008 RECOVERED AS DESCRIBED IN GOOD CONDITION. DROVE RIGHT TO THE MARK AFTER ENTERING THE LATITUDE AND LONGITUDE INTO A CAR GPS SYSTEM. THE MARK IS IN THE WALL OF A BUILDING WHICH MIGHT LIMIT SATELLITE OBSERVATIONS. I don't feel so bad anymore about the primitive HH2 GPS and other tools that I use! RF

After watching the movie Cast Away for about the 20th time on TNT tonight, I wondered where the last scene of the movie was filmed. I was able to pause the movie in a few spots and got the cross road information (FM 1268 & FM 48) off of the signs. Of course, had I just googled it I would have found it much quicker, but wheres the fun in that? Anyhow, after finding the spot I then pondered: "I wonder if there are any benchmarks nearby?". I pulled up Scaredy Cat's site. Sure enough there are 3 at that very intersection! However, 2 of the entries appear to be duplicates. The same mark "F 457 RESET" seems to have 2 PIDs: FL0090 & FL1906. Pull up FL0090 and you see it was set by the Atchison Topeka & Santa Fe Railroad in 1950. Scroll to the bottom of the datasheet and you'll see that it has an error code of F (Bench Mark not yet adjusted) for the elevation. The original mark (FL0089) was set by the CGS in 1937 and reported as destroyed by the Texas Highway Department in February of 1951 (a year after the RESET mark was placed). The datasheet for FL1906 was written by the Coast & Geodetic Survey in 1951. I'm presuming they came back to blue book the reset mark? This location of this mark is listed as "NO CHECK". Something I haven't seen before. Yet, the postion given is very precise (the seconds go out to 6 decimal places). The mark was re-visited by the USGS in 1966. They logged the find under the FL0090 PID. I'm guessing FL1906 should probably be removed as a duplicate and FL0090 should have the error code of F removed from it. If I ever wind up in that part of the country I'll have to give these marks a try and visit the nearby Arrington Ranch (also featured in the movie)! -RF

The answer is yes, you just have to ask the right person! Thanks Dave! National Geodetic Survey, Retrieval Date = OCTOBER 20, 2008 LZ1840 *********************************************************************** LZ1840 DESIGNATION - STOLE LZ1840 PID - LZ1840 LZ1840 STATE/COUNTY- NY/TIOGA LZ1840 USGS QUAD - LITTLE MEADOWS (1978) LZ1840 LZ1840 *CURRENT SURVEY CONTROL LZ1840 ___________________________________________________________________ LZ1840* NAD 83(1996)- 41 59 56.23029(N) 076 11 20.69694(W) ADJUSTED LZ1840* NAVD 88 - 512. (meters) 1680. (feet) SCALED LZ1840 ___________________________________________________________________ LZ1840 LAPLACE CORR- 4.02 (seconds) DEFLEC99 LZ1840 GEOID HEIGHT- -32.70 (meters) GEOID03 LZ1840 HORZ ORDER - SECOND LZ1840 LZ1840.The horizontal coordinates were established by classical geodetic methods LZ1840.and adjusted by the National Geodetic Survey in January 1999. LZ1840 LZ1840.The orthometric height was scaled from a topographic map. LZ1840 LZ1840.The Laplace correction was computed from DEFLEC99 derived deflections. LZ1840 LZ1840.The geoid height was determined by GEOID03. LZ1840 LZ1840; North East Units Scale Factor Converg. LZ1840;SPC NY C - 222,052.858 282,662.505 MT 0.99995062 +0 15 49.7 LZ1840;SPC NY C - 728,518.42 927,368.57 sFT 0.99995062 +0 15 49.7 LZ1840;SPC PA N - 204,654.119 729,319.399 MT 1.00000831 +1 01 57.4 LZ1840;SPC PA N - 671,436.06 2,392,775.39 sFT 1.00000831 +1 01 57.4 LZ1840;UTM 18 - 4,650,343.778 401,520.649 MT 0.99971933 -0 47 44.5 LZ1840 LZ1840! - Elev Factor x Scale Factor = Combined Factor LZ1840!SPC NY C - 0.99992485 x 0.99995062 = 0.99987548 LZ1840!SPC PA N - 0.99992485 x 1.00000831 = 0.99993316 LZ1840!UTM 18 - 0.99992485 x 0.99971933 = 0.99964420 LZ1840 LZ1840: Primary Azimuth Mark Grid Az LZ1840:SPC NY C - TRACY 087 23 29.4 LZ1840:SPC PA N - TRACY 086 37 21.7 LZ1840:UTM 18 - TRACY 088 27 03.6 LZ1840 LZ1840|---------------------------------------------------------------------| LZ1840| PID Reference Object Distance Geod. Az | LZ1840| dddmmss.s | LZ1840| NB1776 TRACY APPROX. 7.5 KM 0873919.1 | LZ1840| CB4909 STOLE RM 1 36.012 METERS 19057 | LZ1840| LZ1839 NEW YORK PA BDRY MON NR STOLE 103.586 METERS 25057 | LZ1840| CB4910 STOLE RM 2 47.747 METERS 26739 | LZ1840| CB4908 STOLE AZ MK 3414502.3 | LZ1840|---------------------------------------------------------------------| LZ1840 LZ1840 SUPERSEDED SURVEY CONTROL LZ1840 LZ1840 NAD 83(1986)- 41 59 56.23316(N) 076 11 20.69672(W) AD( ) 2 LZ1840 NAD 27 - 41 59 55.96500(N) 076 11 21.94700(W) AD( ) 2 LZ1840 LZ1840.Superseded values are not recommended for survey control. LZ1840.NGS no longer adjusts projects to the NAD 27 or NGVD 29 datums. LZ1840.See file dsdata.txt <http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_lookup.prl?Item=HOW_SUP_DET>to determine how the superseded data were derived. LZ1840 LZ1840_U.S. NATIONAL GRID SPATIAL ADDRESS: 18TVM0152150344(NAD 83) LZ1840 LZ1840 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By LZ1840 HISTORY - 1934 MONUMENTED CGS

Bob, Thanks for the link! I gave that tool a try and ran it against some RMs I've previously found. Its pretty slick! I'll be sure to use this in the future! Thanks, RF

There is a piece of property near by that has several neat things to hunt for. The same parcel contains two state border monuments and a tri station. One of the border markers is in the NGS database: NEW YORK PA BDRY MON NR STOLE - LZ1839. When you open the datasheet its has an adjusted location (which is nice) but no written description. It is implied that the description is contained in the data sheet for tri station STOLE which is nearby. I've seen this many times before, so I wasn't surprised. That is until I opended the datasheet for STOLE (LZ1840). When I opened it up I got the error code that station wasn't published because no descriptive text was available! Since STOLE is a tri station it has to have an adjusted position. Although the data sheet does have a location listed, it only goes out to a tenth of a second accuracy. I've located the owner of the property and will be seeking permission to search for the marks soon. However, it would be really nice to have adjusted coordinates for the tri station, and maybe even a box score so I could try for the reference marks. I know several people in the group have gotten marks published by submitting recoveries for them on the NGS website. My guess is they have the position and box score and they will show up if/when I post a recovery. I'm wondering if they can provide me that info now? I'll contact Dave D and see what he says, but thought I'd post here in case others know if this is possible. On a side note, does any one have a tool that calculates the lat/longs for RMs based on the distance and angles from the tri station? Thanks, RF

Hello, That looks like a very interesting area, with that old abandonned airport right there. I took a quick look using the Scaredy Cat Films Benchmark Viewer and it doesn't look like there are any marks on that bridge in the NGS database. However, there are/were serveral marks in the near vicinity. I'm not advocating that you do or don't go back to look for these marks. I'm simply providing you with some additional information. The red pushpin with the letter "A" shows the location an "adjusted" mark, meaning its location is very precise. However, based on the highway departments writeup, it sounds like that mark was destroyed. The other pushpins with the letter "S" show the locations of "scaled" marks. Those locations may not be accurate. You'll have to read the descriptions in their data sheets to find them. Only the one colored in green has been "recently" found. It doesn't mean the other 2 aren't there, they just might be more difficult to find. Having said all that, there may be indeed survey marks in the structure of the new bridge placed by the highway deparment or some other local agency. Hence, the presence of the witness posts that you mentioned. If that's the case, you can log them on Waymarking.com under the US Benchmarks category. Have fun! RF

Is this it? http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=FZ2798

Thanks for all of these great tools! I did notice a small discrepancy with the color coding legends for your recovery maps. The legend that is imbedded in the zoomify map says that orange is for 26-100 marks. While the legend on the left side of the website (shown below) says orange is for 25-100. It appears that the zoomify legend is correct (26 or more). RF

Here is another one with the same mistake. Some one already noticed this one, but it still hasn't been changed yet. NQ0787 Wyoming's highest benchmark is also in error. UPDATE: I figured out how to parse the NGS shape files for each state. Wyoming actually has 3 bad marks. OW0075 NQ0787, & NR0015. I'll update the table below in the thread as I parse through each state. This will give me something to keep me busy with for awhile! Marks Found With Suspect Elevations By State ------------------------------------------------------------ IL - LD0363 IN - HZ1364 MI - NF0706 NE - NO0268 OH - HY1278, HY1192 OR - PB0122, PB0438 PA - LZ1836 UT - HN0100 VA - GX0624 WI - OM1038 WY - OW0075, NQ0787, NR0015

I was looking at holoscene's amazing website, anxious to see if the February statistics were published yet. Chenango County, NY will be changing from white to green this month! The new stats weren't up yet, so I started browsing through the pages that show the highest, lowest, oldest, etc. marks. The listing for the highest mark in the United States caught my attention. HN0100 (X 141 RESET) in Utah is listed as 18049.18 feet (5501.40 M). "How could this be?", I thought. If memory served Mount Whitney is the highest point of elevation in the continental United States at 14 thousand some feet. I did a litte further research and supposedly the highest point in Utah is King's Peak at 13,528 feet. My curiousity grew further. I used yet another favorite benchmarking website, Scarey Cat Film's Benchmark Viewer. There are two other benchmarks in the 141 line located within a mile of X 141 RESET. Y 141 has an elevation of 5419.53 feet, and V 141 has and elevation of 5353.93 feet. Then I thought, "I wonder what the original X 141 mark's elevation was?". It was 5495.52 feet. So it appears that the true elevation of X 141 RESET is 5501.40 FEET. Someone accidentally entered this into the database as METERS instead. A slight difference of 12,547.78 feet! Whoops! So I think I just dethroned HN0100 as the highest benchmark in the US. Sorry Utah!

I found this USGS Benchmark (GDV4) in an interesting monument about 5 feet in height. I'm not sure what the purpose of the mounument was. I think the pile of rocks on top was a nice touch!

Hello Geowizerd, Welcome to benchmarking! Unfortunately, the numbering that you found is not the mark. However, based on the description I would have expected the disk to be located above that area of the abutment, provided that the one pictured is the North East one. Did you check the other 3 abutments? Occasionally I've found that the description was wrong, or the disk was reset and placed on one of the other abutments (see NB1570). Another thing to look for is a drill hole. Usually if the disk has been removed there is evidence of where the stem used to be mounted. Check out my pictures for NA1886 for an example of this. Don't feel bad if you didn't find it. It hasn't been reported since 1966 and a lot can change in 42 years! I'd suggest looking for KX0430 or KX0428 which are the next 2 marks along the railroad to the Northeast. These were both reported found to the NGS in June of 1999. So chances are these are still there and may be easier to locate. A few words of warning with railroad track benchmarks. First there is the obvious safety concerns. Always use extreme caution and make sure you have a quick route of escape in case a train comes. The next concern is trespassing. The railroads are on property owned by the railroad. My friend got a nice lecture from the NY/NJ railway police when he was found looking for a benchmark. Fortunately, the guy let him off with a warning, but you could be fined. Finally, there is railroad ballast (the large pile of gravel and debris that the railroad tracks sit on. Many times benchmarks become buried under this stuff over the years, or railroads are redone and raised up. So for these reasons, I have a love/hate relationship with these types of benchmarks. Well good luck and welcome again to the fun hobby of benchmarking. We all have our share of did not finds, but it makes victory for the ones we do find that much sweeter! RazorbackFan

Here's one (NA2219) I found at a golf course a few months ago that had encounter(s) with a mower. It must have been this way for awhile, because the NGS report from 1976 mentions the damage. Fortunately this one was much smoother then Harry's find and didn't cause me any harm. Since the center point on this disk was still discernable I reported it as Good in my recovery. +

According to the topo maps, your coordinates look pretty close. Follow this link to see what I mean. Change the map type to USGS topo and zoom all the way in. The red push pin is the location of the coordinates that you gave. See the square symbol with the dot in the center of it on the map? That shows that there is/was some sort of border monument there. If you look at the topo maps along the AR/OK border you'll see lots of these squares. There aren't many that were included in the NGS database, thus most don't show up on geocaching's website. The one that GeoTrailblazer found is one the few that do. I have family in Northwest AR and was hoping to find one of these while I was out there for Christmas, but didn't get a chance to go try it. If you still have pictures I would highly encourage you to post them to Waymarking.com as BDT suggested. That is a very cool find!

The following description of a PID comes from the NGS website: All NGS control points have a Permanent IDentifier also known as a PID, associated with them. The PID never changes and is published on the data sheet. A PID consists of two upper case letters followed by four digits. The PIDs are unique identifiers. The marks also have names (or designations) associated with them, but are not alway unique. So mulitple marks may have the same designtations, but will never have the same PID. Hope that helps.