How will Garmin compete with cellphone gps?

[wildgoose007]

I've been a long time Garmin GPS user. I have a 60csx and 2 car GPS units. Been very happy with all my Garmin units.

 

Recently I got an HTC Droid smartphone from Verizon. Being a dedicated GPS user, I was like, "who wants to use GPS on the cellphone? I am sure it's no match for my trusted Garmin".

 

Eventually I got around to test the GPS capability on the phone. I was a little disappointed first, since there are no GPS information available (# of satellites, accuracy, etc). So I downloaded an app called "GPS Status", it was a fine app, gave me all the information that my 60csx gave me on the gps info page, and more.

 

After playing around with the GPS feature more, two things really caught my attention, and that's the main purpose of my post.

 

I noticed that the time for the phone to get GPS lock is amazingly fast, even from a cold start. It's like 1-2 seconds! How could it be faster than the SIRF III? I made sure the GPS feature is OFF, rebooted the phone, and turned it on again. Sure enough, after 1-2 seconds, it has 11 green bars!

 

Holy crap, how did they do that? They must be cheating! I googled around and the answer is assisted GPS. The cellphone tower simply sends the GPS unit the initialization information the device would've needed the 30 seconds of uninterrupted sky to receive! It basically turns a cold start into a warm start!

 

dadgum this is good. I wish my garmin unit can take advantage of this. But how can it, it's not a cellphone.

 

The 2nd feature that I find really amazing is to simply see my exact real time position on the Google satellite map. I can move around and compare my surrounding with the satellite view! The only other time I've felt this excited about GPS was seeing my position on the map when I got my first eMap.

 

In its current form, the GPS capabilities on the smartphone is still no match for the dedicated garmin units. If I am going on a trip, I'll be using my Garmin, not the smartphone. But the potential for assisted GPS, and real time access to the internet (satellite map, traffic, etc, address/business search) is endless.

 

Come to think of it, the cellphone companies spend a fortune building the infrastructure to deliver the internet to your mobile device, and we are now just beginning to tap into its potentials. This infrstracture is not accessible to dedicated GPS devices, and therefore they are at a huge disadvantage.

 

So what is Garmin/Tomtom going to do to complete with this new wave of GPS devices? I am not sure if I'll buy another dedicated GPS if the gps software on my phone reaches the capabilities of the garmin (tracklogs, waypoints, ease of use, etc). Is there a way for Garmin to tap into the cellphone network to get assisted GPS capability?

[mtbikernate]

It's called the Nuvifone.

[+dakboy]

I am not sure if I'll buy another dedicated GPS if the gps software on my phone reaches the capabilities of the garmin (tracklogs, waypoints, ease of use, etc).

When that phone isn't tied to a $30/month data plan on top of my regular phone service, isn't dependent upon cell signals (lose your cell connection and those pretty Google maps go *poof*), can last an entire weekend using the full GPS-related capabilities on a single charge or has commodity batteries, and is as rugged as my PN-40 (IPX-7 waterproof rated, won't break if it falls out of my hand, etc.), and fits naturally in my hand, I might consider it. Edited December 3, 2009 by dakboy

[robertlipe]

Different people need different things in a device. I don't pay $30/month to use maps on my cell fone. I pay $30/month to have email and web. Maps are a nice bonus. I definitely don't forsee this as a power-caching or even power-navigating solution and if you're in rugged terrain or outside of coverage, a dedicated device is likely to "win". But I have to say that being able to long hold the search button and speak "navigate to wal-mart" when you're in a strange town and have spoken turn-by-turns is a pretty nice bonus. For Aunt Tillie that just wants to go yard sale-ing or find the closest Chinese restaurant, it's probably fine.

 

Just like not all the world is well served by a Nuvi-like device or a PN-40 or any other single device, there's a place for it.

[MtnHermit]

I like your post and the points you raise. Unlike some of the earlier replies, I'm not wedded to the Same Old Way. Clearly if you're mostly urban with a cell signal and don't mind the $30+/mo data fee then the potential is limitless, especially with Google's resources and out-of-the-box creativity.

 

One of the things I thought of is the potential of the open platform. Currently most users are stuck in Garmin mind lock. If Garmin doesn't want to make a change or add a feature, we're stuck. Not so with an open platform. Either free or fee a mechanism for change exists.

 

A current negative is if you're out of 3G tower range, no maps and as we've all learned it's the maps that make a modern GPS useful, not the coordinate position.

 

For myself, I mostly care about Topo maps and while your phone would have no problem getting satellite GPS where I go, you couldn't get an analog cell signal, much less a 3G link for those trick satellite images. So perhaps a hybrid is in order? Some way to download and store ahead the area to be visited.

 

Please continue to post your observations and comparisons to your PND's.

[mtbikernate]

My town didn't get 3G at all until just a few months ago. And it's a college town. Go figure.

 

A lot of the features on phones like that are completely lost when I'm out in the places I like to go. My GPS and my camera are basically all that work. Standalone GPS functionality is paramount. Funny thing is, some cell phone company 'coverage maps' say they should work in certain places here, but no. A friend of mine is only able to receive satellite or radio broadcasts at his house. He doesn't even pick up any over-the-air television.

 

If a phone were able to STORE imagery and contours onto internal storage for use without a cell signal, that would be a step in the right direction. Next would be a GPS chipset that actually does what it's supposed to do WITHOUT tower triangulation added to it. Some of these phone companies are using turn-of-the-century GPS hardware just so they can say their phones have GPS.

 

Another would be battery life. Give me AT LEAST 10hrs of GPS use on a charge. 18 or more would be much better, even. I don't care about power augmentation systems. I have a device with solar cells and a handcrank that can charge USB devices. I can recharge in the field, but I would like a day or two of use before I need to recharge.

 

Give me some hardware that at least makes an attempt at being durable under real world harsh use. I want a device (like my Garmin GPS) where if it gets wet, letting it dry WILL allow it to function entirely again. My 76CSx was submerged in 50deg whitewater for about half an hour, maintained a sat lock the entire time, and was still running when I pulled it out of the water. I turned it off, dried it out (it did get a little wet inside), and it was back to life. I want something I don't have to put into a protective case if I want to use it to record my mountain bike ride, or simply carry during a rainstorm.

 

And, don't make it cost me extra on my monthly plan to use the GPS. None of my purpose-built devices do that. I understand charging for bandwidth to download maps, but the GPS signal is free. My cell can handle limited apps and GPS. I won't purchase the data plan because I'd rather carry an extra device. I don't care about web surfing while I drive to yoga practice or any of that stupid stuff people do these days.

 

Give me a REAL integrated camera with some optical zoom and a bigger aperture. I managed decent pics with just 2MP...but I had respectable optics on that camera. Cell phone cameras are very nearly useless, but automatic geotagging is nice and if I could get some halfway decent photos, I might actually use it.

[+Chrysalides]

Give me a REAL integrated camera with some optical zoom and a bigger aperture.

http://cow.mooh.org/2009/12/phone-o-scope-...-lenses-to.html

[NordicMan]

Rumor has it the next generation SIRF Star IV chipset has some sort of "low power mode" that will let it run continuously with negligible drain on the battery. That means the GPS/smartphone/whatever will be able to ALWAYS know where it is, not just when you turn it on and are using a location based app. It's supposed to start showing up in devices perhaps next year.

 

I'm waiting PATIENTLY ( ) for some/any company to create a smartphone that is rugged AND has the ability to have full built-in maps to compliment the downloadable Google maps so if in an area with poor coverage the internal maps kick in. I'm actually surprise no company seems to be taking advantage of this market segment.. "sports / outdoors / active" consumers that need a rugged smartphone.. oh and of course at a reasonable cost

[+twolpert]

Some stand-alone GPSrs/chipsets now support "predictive ephemeris", which (to oversimplify) is a somewhat crippled version of assisted GPS. It allows a shorter time to first fix, but the fix is somewhat inaccurate until the unit acquires current ephemeris data. But it does help compete with the quick fix provided by your assisted-GPS cell phone.

[+toil&trouble]

I am a long time Garmin user also, a Nuvi in each car and cache with an Oregon. I looked at the Nuvifone at AT&T and it looks pretty good, works very much like the Nuvi, but also a phone. The reason I won't buy one is that I just can't live without the iphone and its aps, and I refuse to carry around multiple devices. Now, TomTom does make an iphone ap, I believe it costs $99 and makes your iphone into a pretty usable GPSr, I think if Garmin would just create an iphone ap, it would sell like crazy, if you have an iphone, you already pay for data, so there wouldn't be any extra cost. I don't know how the Nuvifone is selling, but it took them two years to get it to market, so I don't think Garmin will abandon it any time soon. But I still have hopes that they'll look at what TomTom is offering and make an iphone ap available!

[+2000wu6]

I started out with GC when I picked up my G1 ... used it for a bit over 3 months & 169 caches to date ... I too was amazed at how quickly I got decent GPS locks (down to 10-15ft accuracy within <10s from an app starting up). Also, I must say that the quality of reception is usually very good ... even in the woods, I usually have in the area of 20-25ft accuracy, often down to 12-15ft ... compared to some slightly older "regular" GPSr's like an etrex that might not even get two or even one single GPS satellite from exactly the same location ...

 

Apart from those upsides, I see a couple problems (which are the basis for me getting a Colorado 300):

 

- battery run time - using my G1 for extended caching use (and that is going to sleep as much as possible during caching, but often running for 10-20 minutes at a time when locating the final, including querying the data either from local storage or the web), it might often go down from 100% to 20% and lower within - say - 10-15 caches ... If possible I hook my phone up to the car charger, or a mobile battery backup Of course this could be remedied with a second battery for my G1 ... oh, and yes, I usually run on GPRS/Edge only, as the speed is sufficient for the occasional online query ...

 

- maps rely on network availability ... while this is mostly the case nowadays, it can't be guaranteed, and will cost you an arm & a leg while outside your country of origin ... compared to say fixed $100 or so for a complete country map for the Garmin (give or take)

 

- regular GPSr's can usually take beating without breaking, with IPsomething rating for water-tight housing and the likes ... every time it starts raining I have to scramble to keep at least more than the occasional spray or drops off the phone ...

 

Having said that, I will most likely always keep GeoBeagle on my G1, as I always have it around for the quick cache experience But I reckon for the more serious caching, the Garmin should be the better choice ...

[+zaphir]

I started out with the Blackberry Curve 8300 running Trimble Navigator on it. I found my first 50 caches using this method. I have to say, I have been completely satisfied and happy with the experience. There were only two problems…battery life and it isn’t all that rugged. I already have a data plan as I use the phone for work, so that wasn't an issue.

 

My friend who helped me get into Geocaching has an Oregon 400. He said that the accuracy would be much better if I got an Oregon. After much “hand-wringing”, I ponied up the money and now own a 550. So excited…I am a real geocacher now with the right equipment!!

 

So after having my 550 for 3 weeks now what do I think? I like them both, but still rely very heavily on my Blackberry. I get cell phone signal everywhere I go to cache, so that is not an issue. I get real-time logs from GC. I can log my finds on the BB without having to plug in my 550. And it has this neat feature that I don’t think my 550 has…it has a bulls-eye where the cache is at and rings around the bulls-eye indicating distance. On this screen, it has a small triangle indicating where my position is and as I walk, the triangle moves telling me if I am going in the right direction and if not, what direction I have to walk to find the cache. Wish the 550 had this feature!!!

 

I can get topo/street/sat img on the BB which is fantastic. I have streets loaded onto my 550, but haven’t yet figured out how to get sat img onto the darned thing yet…harder then Chinese algebra. Others have done it, but the process still eludes me.

 

Maybe once I get sat img on the 550 and I become better familiar with the 550’s capabilities, I will start to use it more, but right now…wondering if I wasted a bunch of money. My BB does everything my 550 does and does it better. BB is extremely accurate as well…scarily accurate.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Zaph

[mtbikernate]

I can get topo/street/sat img on the BB which is fantastic. I have streets loaded onto my 550, but haven’t yet figured out how to get sat img onto the darned thing yet…harder then Chinese algebra. Others have done it, but the process still eludes me.

 

Try a different program. Topofusion makes it cake. Select your map tiles, send to GPS, and go. I am vaguely acquainted with the developer. He got this update on his software out pretty darned quick compared to when Garmin announced it.

 

I found another program recently that does it fairly easily, GlobalMapper. But it's a pretty pricey GIS package. Not prohibitive, but expensive enough that you're not going to buy it unless you know you'll use it.

[+zaphir]

I can get topo/street/sat img on the BB which is fantastic. I have streets loaded onto my 550, but haven’t yet figured out how to get sat img onto the darned thing yet…harder then Chinese algebra. Others have done it, but the process still eludes me.

 

Try a different program. Topofusion makes it cake. Select your map tiles, send to GPS, and go. I am vaguely acquainted with the developer. He got this update on his software out pretty darned quick compared to when Garmin announced it.

 

I found another program recently that does it fairly easily, GlobalMapper. But it's a pretty pricey GIS package. Not prohibitive, but expensive enough that you're not going to buy it unless you know you'll use it.

 

You are the 2nd person to point me in the direction of Topofusion...I will give it a try tonight.

BTW...love east Texas...very pretty country!!

[+MiniCachingCrew]

I'm an Android application developer and in my spare time I'm experimenting with creating a caching app for the Android platform. I'm working with a Motorola Droid that I carry in a waterproof Otter case that allows access to the touch screen and can take more abuse than my Delorme. The beauty of these phones is that it's possible to create applications with features that do not currently exist in any of the dedicated devices or phone apps currently on the market. I have professional experience developing aircraft navigation software and I've always wanted to take a crack at creating a caching app - everytime I cache I'm always thinking "if I only I had x capability." Now, with an open platform, I'm free to experiment.

 

It is possible for an application to load the google maps to the phone when for you're going to be out of range for web access if I read the documentation correctly. My phone came with 16gb of storage and I can swap in a 32gb card if needed, so there should be enough space.

 

For the battery issue, they make backup battery packs that allow you to use AA batteries. I'm going to pick up a spare battery for my phone. Verizon sent me a discount accessory coupon, so a second battery is going to run about $32. Although, with the one battery I've never even come close to running out of battery power.

 

Right now I'm experimenting a lot to see what works and checking out existing caching apps. I have a lot of ideas, but getting them to actually work is another story! Sometimes, what sounds like a great idea isn't so great when you actually try it in the field. If I get something useful working, I'll let you guys know.

 

It's funny, I used to carry the phone as a safety/backup device to the GPSr, now it's going to be the reverse.