NonMembers Geocaching

[+RockhoundMT]

Last weekend I happened to catch a school bus with a load of children looking for a geocache of mine. Upon contacting the school (I was concerned that a school bus is not very discrete) I found out that the "Science Club" led by the local Science Teacher had visited several caches in the area that day. When I emailed the teacher I was told that neither he or any of his students had an account and they had no intention of logging their finds. He said he was able to get all the information he needed off the geocaching.com website (still maintaining that he doesn't have a account).

 

So I pulled up the website and without logging in did some snooping...and guess what! You can get everything but the coordinates including Google maps with satellite views that would put you within 20' of ANY geocache!

 

I'm shocked that any non-member can get so much information and this unethical teacher and role model is exactly why it's a problem. These children know nothing about the rules, they just know where to find cool ammo cans with neat coins and stuff in them. The teacher won't even tell me which caches they visited, I guess I'll have to wait until they get muggled to know.

 

Without the Google Maps the information available to anyone without logging in can't really give away a location...but with the Google Map info you don't even need a GPS to find caches! Can't this be disabled for non members?

Edited September 29, 2009 by RockhoundMT

[Motorcycle_Mama]

I am moving this thread from the Geocaching Topics forum to the Geocaching.com Website forum.

[GOF and Bacall]

There is no background check to become a member anyway. If someone wants to join just to see the caches they can lie about almost everything. All they would need is a free web based email and the computer at a local library. So, with a lack of an FBI security check what difference could it make if they need to sign in or not?

[Mr.Yuck]

Last weekend I happened to catch a school bus with a load of children looking for a geocache of mine. Upon contacting the school (I was concerned that a school bus is not very discrete) I found out that the "Science Club" led by the local Science Teacher had visited several caches in the area that day. When I emailed the teacher I was told that neither he or any of his students had an account and they had no intention of logging their finds. He said he was able to get all the information he needed off the geocaching.com website (still maintaining that he doesn't have a account).

 

So I pulled up the website and without logging in did some snooping...and guess what! You can get everything but the coordinates including Google maps with satellite views that would put you within 20' of ANY geocache!

 

I'm shocked that any non-member can get so much information and this unethical teacher and role model is exactly why it's a problem. These children know nothing about the rules, they just know where to find cool ammo cans with neat coins and stuff in them. The teacher won't even tell me which caches they visited, I guess I'll have to wait until they get muggled to know.

 

Without the Google Maps the information available to anyone without logging in can't really give away a location...but with the Google Map info you don't even need a GPS to find caches! Can't this be disabled for non members?

 

To be honest, I don't think this is a big deal. From the inception of Geocaching up until the year before you joined (maybe someone knows the exact date), I'll tell you what... They could have even got the coordinates too without having an account!! They were just there on the internet for anyone to see. Not unlike an alternative Geocaching website, where you can see the coordinates to one of my caches, which is also listed on Geocaching.com

 

Many people find caches that never log on the website. True, they do have to have an account now to see the coordinates. But before 2007, they didn't. Which is why I think there were even more of those people back then.

 

And I happen to know if Mr. T. finds an entry in the logbook that doesn't appear in the online logs, he erases it. Just thought I'd beat him to that one.

[+RockhoundMT]

There is no background check to become a member anyway. If someone wants to join just to see the caches they can lie about almost everything. All they would need is a free web based email and the computer at a local library. So, with a lack of an FBI security check what difference could it make if they need to sign in or not?

 

I know we can't "make" people play by the rules but people who haven't even registered shouldn't be able to play at all! At least when they register their activity can be tracked by the administrators and inappropriate behavior can be dealt with. This guy is claiming he isn't a member and therefore he doesn't have to play by the rules...he shouldn't be able to play at all, period.

 

The worst part is that he is teaching his students to ignore the rules also, I fully expect the local caches to be muggled in the days to come.

[OpinioNate]

Let's be honest, the account creation process is little more than an annoyance to even the laziest lamer. Sites like bugmenot.com make it even easier to see cache coordinates (at least between times when it occurs to me to ban those accounts). There is only so much we can do to combat stupid.

[+dakin55]

I understand your concern but. why not ask the teacher why he would only teach 1/2 of a lesson, if they are going to take part in a field trip were the info was gotten from this site finishing the lesson and completing the teaching. I would indicate they should at least have 1 group account. ( mention to the teacher it is FREE). Promoting Geo-caching to our youth ensures the game will continue well into the future!

[+BlueDeuce]

I wonder if it was even gc.com listed caches. (not that it matters)

[+BlueDeuce]

I understand your concern but. why not ask the teacher why he would only teach 1/2 of a lesson, if they are going to take part in a field trip were the info was gotten from this site finishing the lesson and completing the teaching. I would indicate they should at least have 1 group account. ( mention to the teacher it is FREE). Promoting Geo-caching to our youth ensures the game will continue well into the future!

 

I'm helping a school place caches that won't be publicly listed. It'll be more about learning science, geography, etc. than logging ethics.

Edited September 30, 2009 by BlueDeuce

[GOF and Bacall]

I wonder if it was even gc.com listed caches. (not that it matters)

 

The OP, in the first sentence, says it was one of his. (not that it matters)

[+BlueDeuce]

I wonder if it was even gc.com listed caches. (not that it matters)

 

The OP, in the first sentence, says it was one of his. (not that it matters)

 

Ah yes, missed that.

[ao318]

I was one of those that prior to having to have an account could see the waypoints and see where the caches were in relation to my house. This feature is in fact what got me and my daughters started into geocaching. We were amazed at the amount of caches that were near our house and neighborhood.

 

I for one do not see this as a bad thing. In regards to the comment

I know we can't "make" people play by the rules but people who haven't even registered shouldn't be able to play at all! At least when they register their activity can be tracked by the administrators and inappropriate behavior can be dealt with. This guy is claiming he isn't a member and therefore he doesn't have to play by the rules...he shouldn't be able to play at all, period.

. Even if you are registered, the site doesn't have the ability to record your viewing of the cache page, knowing if you wrote down the coordinates, and then visited the cache. People, whether registered or not, are either going to play by the rules or not. Why do you think people create sock puppet accounts.

[+tozainamboku]

And I happen to know if Mr. T. finds an entry in the logbook that doesn't appear in the online logs, he erases it. Just thought I'd beat him to that one.

Well I would delete the names if the cache and the logbook don't get stolen first. I don't think that the OP is as concerned that the kids aren't going to log their find online as much as with some unethical science teacher showing the kids where to where to find cool ammo cans with neat coins and stuff in them. Hmm, science teachers teaching their students how to steal stuff. Before you know it they'll be teaching kids some thing really evil, like evolution.

[+teamhillside]

I do think there is an inconsistency here. If you are not logged in you cannot see the google maps link to the cache location. But if you search whilst not logged in, you can view an accurate google map with the cache locations displayed. I've found several caches myself without using a GPS simply because the google map made it blindingly obvious where to look (e.g. single tree in a field etc).

 

Ignoring the obvious fact that accounts can be created very very easily just to see coordinates, it would be more consistent if the website randomised the location of caches for non-logged in visitors, in the same way that the google earth kml link does.

 

Matt

[+dakin55]

[

 

I'm helping a school place caches that won't be publicly listed. It'll be more about learning science, geography, etc. than logging ethics.

But my point is, part of science is the collection of information. The logging proccess is part of this or so I would think. If it is just a gps exercise call it that. If it is a geo-cache why would you chose only to offer part of a lesson. I would think in science we would explore all aspects, maybe the logging part would trigger one of the students to develope a simple way of sending technology from a hand held gps to the internet. ( without paying a mobile cellular company ).

 

As for not publishing a geo-cache, I could see reasons for this but maybe im rabbling just because i haven't had my morning coffee yet.

[AZcachemeister]

Don't worry about it.

 

[+sbell111]

... I'm shocked that any non-member can get so much information and this unethical teacher and role model is exactly why it's a problem.

Please explain how the teacher acted unethically.

I know we can't "make" people play by the rules but people who haven't even registered shouldn't be able to play at all! At least when they register their activity can be tracked by the administrators and inappropriate behavior can be dealt with.

In what way are administrators tracking inappropriate behavior and 'dealing with it'?

This guy is claiming he isn't a member and therefore he doesn't have to play by the rules...he shouldn't be able to play at all, period.

 

The worst part is that he is teaching his students to ignore the rules also, I fully expect the local caches to be muggled in the days to come.

What rules were being ignored? Edited September 30, 2009 by sbell111

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Yeah, I'm still struggling to see what the problem is.

[+RockhoundMT]

... I'm shocked that any non-member can get so much information and this unethical teacher and role model is exactly why it's a problem.

Please explain how the teacher acted unethically.

I know we can't "make" people play by the rules but people who haven't even registered shouldn't be able to play at all! At least when they register their activity can be tracked by the administrators and inappropriate behavior can be dealt with.

In what way are administrators tracking inappropriate behavior and 'dealing with it'?

This guy is claiming he isn't a member and therefore he doesn't have to play by the rules...he shouldn't be able to play at all, period.

 

The worst part is that he is teaching his students to ignore the rules also, I fully expect the local caches to be muggled in the days to come.

What rules were being ignored?

 

I feel that any teacher who only teaches part of any subject is being unethical. Take as an example a driving instruction who only shows kids how to start a car and put it in gear but doesn't show them the brake or explain the purpose of stop signs... A teachers job is education, not just enough information to justify his overtime for a weekend fieldtrip

 

Administrators CAN track viewing of Members Only caches online.

 

The "rules" are as follows:

 

Easy Steps to Geocaching

 

1. Register for a free membership.

2. Click "Hide & Seek a Cache."

3. Enter your postal code and click "search."

4. Choose any geocache from the list and click on its name.

5. Enter the coordinates of the geocache into your GPS Device.

6. Use your GPS device to assist you in finding the hidden geocache.

7. Sign the logbook and return the geocache to its original location.

8. Share your geocaching stories and photos online.

 

The teacher is REFUSING to register (#1) and log online (#8)

[+Lil Devil]

[+RockhoundMT]

On a follow up note...after visiting the geocache in question I have found that the students ripped the handle off the door of a old woodstove used in the landscaping and it no longer closes and they also pulled the parts out of an electrical panel nearby and that door won't close either.

 

I'm sure that someone will say that damaging private property during your search isn't against the rules either.

[+agentmancuso]

I feel that any teacher who only teaches part of any subject is being unethical.

 

It seems unlikely that any teacher, however talented or committed, would manage to teach everything about science.

 

If the kids leave school without learning to regard 'rules' with a modicum of suspicion, then they've been wasting their time.

 

Maybe one or two of the kids will enjoy finding the cache and go on to join up in later life. So much the better, particularly if they would otherwise never have got to hear of geocaching.

[+RockhoundMT]

I feel that any teacher who only teaches part of any subject is being unethical.

 

It seems unlikely that any teacher, however talented or committed, would manage to teach everything about science.

 

If the kids leave school without learning to regard 'rules' with a modicum of suspicion, then they've been wasting their time.

 

Maybe one or two of the kids will enjoy finding the cache and go on to join up in later life. So much the better, particularly if they would otherwise never have got to hear of geocaching.

 

The subject in question being geocaching...shouldn't they know how to do it properly? I actually don't think they even used a GPSr given the large area over which damage occured. I think the teacher just used the google map and turned them loose. Is it even Geocaching if you don't use a GPSr?

[GOF and Bacall]

On a follow up note...after visiting the geocache in question I have found that the students ripped the handle off the door of a old woodstove used in the landscaping and it no longer closes and they also pulled the parts out of an electrical panel nearby and that door won't close either.

 

I'm sure that someone will say that damaging private property during your search isn't against the rules either.

 

Now that should be noted on the cache page and reported to the school system.

[+sbell111]

Administrators CAN track viewing of Members Only caches online.

Don't confuse the audit log feature as any sort of protection.

 

BTW, the caches in question weren't PMO, were they?

The "rules" are as follows:

 

Easy Steps to Geocaching

 

1. Register for a free membership.

2. Click "Hide & Seek a Cache."

3. Enter your postal code and click "search."

4. Choose any geocache from the list and click on its name.

5. Enter the coordinates of the geocache into your GPS Device.

6. Use your GPS device to assist you in finding the hidden geocache.

7. Sign the logbook and return the geocache to its original location.

8. Share your geocaching stories and photos online.

 

The teacher is REFUSING to register (#1) and log online (#8)

I haven't followed 'rules' 1-5 in years. Many people don't follow #6-8. That doesn't make us rulebreakers or unethical in any way.

The subject in question being geocaching...shouldn't they know how to do it properly? I actually don't think they even used a GPSr given the large area over which damage occured. I think the teacher just used the google map and turned them loose. Is it even Geocaching if you don't use a GPSr?

Based on the OP, I think that most would argue that 'geocaching' was not being taught. Perhaps the teacher was teaching map reading. Who knows? Who cares?

On a follow up note...after visiting the geocache in question I have found that the students ripped the handle off the door of a old woodstove used in the landscaping and it no longer closes and they also pulled the parts out of an electrical panel nearby and that door won't close either.

 

I'm sure that someone will say that damaging private property during your search isn't against the rules either.

Many would argue that you don't 'know' that the kids damaged anything. All that you do know is that kids were in the area and something is now damaged. Edited September 30, 2009 by sbell111

[+agentmancuso]

On a follow up note...after visiting the geocache in question I have found that the students ripped the handle off the door of a old woodstove used in the landscaping and it no longer closes and they also pulled the parts out of an electrical panel nearby and that door won't close either.

Well that's a shame. But it's unclear to me how the teacher having registered an account with Groundspeak could have prevented the vandalism (even assuming the same group were responsible)?

 

I'm sure that someone will say that damaging private property during your search isn't against the rules either.

Against the law, more to the point.

[+sbell111]

I'm sure that someone will say that damaging private property during your search isn't against the rules either.

Against the law, more to the point.

On the other hand, things break. Handles on old woodstoves used for landscaping and defunct electrical panels located close to an active geocache are somewhat likely to break. One could argue that a geocache ought not be placed in such a location to hasten along this breakage.

 

Things breaking are not, in and of itself, evidence of a law being broken.

Edited September 30, 2009 by sbell111

[+Aardvarkson3]

We send our caches out into the world, hoping that they will not be discovered by irresponsible jerks - whether they've ever logged onto the site or not. That's the risk we take when we place a cache, drop a trackable, or have kids, come to think of it!

 

The "rules" you mentioned are really a suggested "how-to". The first cache my family found was from a hand-out we picked up at a Colorado State Park visitor's center, which listed several caches the park staff had placed. My wife found the cache just from the clue the staff gave us while I was still figuring out how to enter coordinates on the GPSr we rented from them. When we got home from our trip, we created an account and logged our find. Since I didn't follow the rules (I skipped 2-6, and did 1,7, and 8 out of order), should my log be erased? Our friends had virtually the same experience, but never logged on to create an account - should their entry in the log-book be erased since they only followed rules 5, 6, and 7? I for one don't think so.

 

I agree with you that the teacher seems to have missed the educational opportunity with respect to geocaching. There are fantastic lessons to be learned in the fields of Geology, Geography, Geometry, Cartography, Applied Technology, History (even Sociology since we are a community!) and who knows whether or not he brought that part of the lesson to the classroom. I also agree that he failed to teach the kids to respect others. To me, the most effective way to change this teacher's behavior would be to ask the him if you could assist with part of the lesson in the future. Placing temporary unlisted caches and helping the class track them down using your GPSr would give you the opportunity to educate the teacher on what geocaching is all about.

[+sbell111]

... To me, the most effective way to change this teacher's behavior would be to ask the him if you could assist with part of the lesson in the future. Placing temporary unlisted caches and helping the class track them down using your GPSr would give you the opportunity to educate the teacher on what geocaching is all about.

Based on the OP, I suspect that that bridge, the road leading up to it and towns in both directions as far as the eye can see are burned. Edited September 30, 2009 by sbell111

[+agentmancuso]

Based on the OP, I suspect that that bridge, the road leading up to it and towns in both directions as far as the eye can see are burned.

 

Aye, an ethical Scorched Earth policy..

[+RockhoundMT]

... To me, the most effective way to change this teacher's behavior would be to ask the him if you could assist with part of the lesson in the future. Placing temporary unlisted caches and helping the class track them down using your GPSr would give you the opportunity to educate the teacher on what geocaching is all about.

Based on the OP, I suspect that that bridge, the road leading up to it and towns in both directions as far as the eye can see are burned.

 

LOL! Here is a transcript of the message I sent...

"Good morning MR. X and thank you for responding. I want to encourage you to continue sharing Geocaching with your students; it’s a fun and healthy experience. They are more than welcome to trade swag; you could encourage them to bring dollar store type items for that purpose. When my family goes Geocaching as a group, the person who finds the cache gets first choice of the swag that they want to trade and everyone signs the log. Thank you for stressing the “secrecy” of the game, but I believe they should also be taught the importance of following all the rules, and logging their finds. I would suggest that you register a “Science Club” account and allow the student who made the find to log it, there is no charge to register and that way cache owners will be kept aware of activity at their caches. I am curious about how you got coordinates and information without an account.

 

Once again, I hope you do continue Geocaching with your students and I would be very happy to volunteer as a “guide” the next time you do so. As a matter of fact, with a little coordination, we could arrange for a “First to Find” and add a little excitement to the game! The more I think about it, the more ideas I get for fun things these kids could do. I have a big pathtag collection and pathtags available to trade, I also have several trackables that can be discovered and some blank TB tags, the students could make some Travelbugs of their own.

 

This summer I was involved in a CITO (Cache in Trash Out) project at Blue Mountain in xxx (geocachers are very environmentally aware) where a college student created a multimedia report about Geocaching. I have a copy of the DVD she made if you would like to show your students.

 

If you are interested, maybe we could meet and I’ll show you what I’m talking about."

 

His response "I appreciate your interest."

[+agentmancuso]

LOL! Here is a transcript of the message I sent...

 

Looks like you did your best there all right.

 

I know though that your suggestion would not be taken up where I am (Scotland) because of the legal ramifications of working with children etc.

[Mr.Yuck]

Well, I do see where you're coming from here. Nothing to do with all the "rules" you stated. But I do believe, plain and simply, that a group of kids (school children, Boy Scouts, etc..) taken to a cache are somewhat likely to come back with some friends and vandalize or steal the cache. And I can definitely see a bunch of kids on a field trip vandalizing stuff while no one is looking (the stove handle example).

[Knight-Errant]

... I'm shocked that any non-member can get so much information and this unethical teacher and role model is exactly why it's a problem.

Please explain how the teacher acted unethically.

I know we can't "make" people play by the rules but people who haven't even registered shouldn't be able to play at all! At least when they register their activity can be tracked by the administrators and inappropriate behavior can be dealt with.

In what way are administrators tracking inappropriate behavior and 'dealing with it'?

This guy is claiming he isn't a member and therefore he doesn't have to play by the rules...he shouldn't be able to play at all, period.

 

The worst part is that he is teaching his students to ignore the rules also, I fully expect the local caches to be muggled in the days to come.

What rules were being ignored?

I feel that any teacher who only teaches part of any subject is being unethical. Take as an example a driving instruction who only shows kids how to start a car and put it in gear but doesn't show them the brake or explain the purpose of stop signs... A teachers job is education, not just enough information to justify his overtime for a weekend fieldtrip

 

Administrators CAN track viewing of Members Only caches online.

 

The "rules" are as follows:

 

Easy Steps to Geocaching

 

1. Register for a free membership.

2. Click "Hide & Seek a Cache."

3. Enter your postal code and click "search."

4. Choose any geocache from the list and click on its name.

5. Enter the coordinates of the geocache into your GPS Device.

6. Use your GPS device to assist you in finding the hidden geocache.

7. Sign the logbook and return the geocache to its original location.

8. Share your geocaching stories and photos online.

 

The teacher is REFUSING to register (#1) and log online (#8)

Apparently you would also be mortified to find out that there are lots of REGISTERED geocachers that regularly disregard #8 (no online log) and even both #7 & #8. We have been caching with several that fit into this category. While we don't encourage it, it is THEIR choice.

[GOF and Bacall]

... I'm shocked that any non-member can get so much information and this unethical teacher and role model is exactly why it's a problem.

Please explain how the teacher acted unethically.

I know we can't "make" people play by the rules but people who haven't even registered shouldn't be able to play at all! At least when they register their activity can be tracked by the administrators and inappropriate behavior can be dealt with.

In what way are administrators tracking inappropriate behavior and 'dealing with it'?

This guy is claiming he isn't a member and therefore he doesn't have to play by the rules...he shouldn't be able to play at all, period.

 

The worst part is that he is teaching his students to ignore the rules also, I fully expect the local caches to be muggled in the days to come.

What rules were being ignored?

I feel that any teacher who only teaches part of any subject is being unethical. Take as an example a driving instruction who only shows kids how to start a car and put it in gear but doesn't show them the brake or explain the purpose of stop signs... A teachers job is education, not just enough information to justify his overtime for a weekend fieldtrip

 

Administrators CAN track viewing of Members Only caches online.

 

The "rules" are as follows:

 

Easy Steps to Geocaching

 

1. Register for a free membership.

2. Click "Hide & Seek a Cache."

3. Enter your postal code and click "search."

4. Choose any geocache from the list and click on its name.

5. Enter the coordinates of the geocache into your GPS Device.

6. Use your GPS device to assist you in finding the hidden geocache.

7. Sign the logbook and return the geocache to its original location.

8. Share your geocaching stories and photos online.

 

The teacher is REFUSING to register (#1) and log online (#8)

Apparently you would also be mortified to find out that there are lots of REGISTERED geocachers that regularly disregard #8 (no online log) and even both #7 & #8. We have been caching with several that fit into this category. While we don't encourage it, it is THEIR choice.

 

It has always struck me odd that the rules are treated as guidelines and the guidelines are treated as rules. Perhaps it is time to rewrite that "rules" thing? I mean heck, there isn't one thing on that list that you can't ignore and still find geocaches.