Puzzle caches without coord verification are really annoying

[+AbMagFab]

I'm not sure it adds anything to the game/hobby/sport, it's just a waste of time. Lots of these puzzles aren't math puzzles, and have multiple potential solutions. Why not just put a coord verification on there so we can see if we're on the right track or not?

 

I've e-mailed the owners a couple of times for verification - one didn't respond, one responded with corrected coordinates, which was nice, but actually annoyed me because I would have come up with it had they just said "solved the puzzle right - put the coords together wrong". Or even better, had I just checked with a coord checker.

 

I'm almost at the point of not bothering if they don't have coord verification.

[+fegan]

Why not just put a coord verification on there so we can see if we're on the right track or not?

Amen! I also wish they would.

 

I do a fair number of puzzles (I try to do at least one a week) and there's nothing that I hate more than spending 30 minutes searching at the wrong location because there wasn't a coordinate checker and the owner wouldn't respond to an e-mail.

[+Arrow42]

I'm not sure it adds anything to the game/hobby/sport, it's just a waste of time. Lots of these puzzles aren't math puzzles, and have multiple potential solutions. Why not just put a coord verification on there so we can see if we're on the right track or not?

 

I've e-mailed the owners a couple of times for verification - one didn't respond, one responded with corrected coordinates, which was nice, but actually annoyed me because I would have come up with it had they just said "solved the puzzle right - put the coords together wrong". Or even better, had I just checked with a coord checker.

 

I'm almost at the point of not bothering if they don't have coord verification.

 

I have two puzzle caches...

 

1 has coord checker and the other does not.

 

I learned a valuable lesson with coord checker: People use it to cheat. For my puzzle, it's fairly easy to get all but one of the needed numbers. Instead of figuring out the puzzle people were using coord checker to brute force it.

 

I designed my next puzzle in a way so that it's clear when you have figured out the system, and I promptly respond to e-mails asking for verification.

 

I don't hold it against people who "cheated" in my first puzzle, but I'm certainly going to design my puzzles and cache-pages with that in mind in the future.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Arrow42

[+niraD]

I learned a valuable lesson with coord checker: People use it to cheat.

Yep. Some puzzle cache owners don't use coordinate verifiers because they don't want to provide another way for others to brute-force their puzzles. Others just think that the way you should verify your solution is by finding the cache.

 

For my puzzle, it's fairly easy to get all but one of the needed numbers. Instead of figuring out the puzzle people were using coord checker to brute force it.

With only 10 possible solutions, I would think that it would be easy enough to brute-force the last digit without a coordinate checker...

 

I designed my next puzzle in a way so that it's clear when you have figured out the system, and I promptly respond to e-mails asking for verification.

Yep. That's how I design my puzzles (the one that is published, and the ones that I haven't published yet). If you've solved it, then you'll know that you've solved it. I also provide a 15-digit checksum of the solution. It doesn't help with digits that get reversed, but it helps with other transcription errors.

[+Chrysalides]

I'm not sure it adds anything to the game/hobby/sport, it's just a waste of time. Lots of these puzzles aren't math puzzles, and have multiple potential solutions. Why not just put a coord verification on there so we can see if we're on the right track or not?

The problem with coordinate verifiers is that someone, and you may not necessarily know who, now has the final coordinates to your puzzle. You also do not know about the security of the site. Some cache owners may feel strongly about that.

 

Some puzzles here include a checksum, which is essentially all the digits of the coordinates added up. Not a very robust checker, but usually good enough, and quite useless (most of the time) for working out the coordinates from the checksum. A few puzzles would give you either the correct result, or nothing at all. Examples : GCNJ3J and GC1WA3K.

 

I do wish Groundspeak would provide a coordinate verification system. After tall, Groundspeak already knows the final coordinates.

[+Pat in Louisiana]

From a hider's point of view.

I have a few puzzle caches out there And I do not know how to go about adding a "solution check" to my page.

Instructions welcome!

[+Chrysalides]

From a hider's point of view.

I have a few puzzle caches out there And I do not know how to go about adding a "solution check" to my page.

Instructions welcome!

Check out the instructions on these pages:

 

http://geochecker.com/

http://certitude.freecp.net/certitude.php

http://evince.locusprime.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi

 

fizzymagic expressed some reservations about Certitude. Personally, I think the flaws he pointed out are also present in geochecker, but he's been caching a lot longer than me, so I'd suggest paying attention to what he's saying. Evince appears to be operated by Prime Suspect (from the domain).

Edited September 13, 2009 by Chrysalides

[+Pat in Louisiana]

Thanks Chrysalides

I just added it it to one of my mystery caches.

[+Prime Suspect]

I'm not sure it adds anything to the game/hobby/sport, it's just a waste of time. Lots of these puzzles aren't math puzzles,

There's no requirement that they have to be. Some are logic puzzles, some are hidden puzzle. Lots of different types of puzzles that work well for geocaches, though there are a few that don't.

 

and have multiple potential solutions.

Lots? No, not "lots". A few maybe. But the vast majority will resolve to a single set of coordinates.

 

Why not just put a coord verification on there so we can see if we're on the right track or not?

Because it's the owner's discretion as to whether or not he or she wants to use one. Geocaching.com is not going to require that people use an outside checker.

 

I'm almost at the point of not bothering if they don't have coord verification.

Ok.

[jholly]

From a hider's point of view.

I have a few puzzle caches out there And I do not know how to go about adding a "solution check" to my page.

Instructions welcome!

Check out the instructions on these pages:

 

http://geochecker.com/

http://certitude.freecp.net/certitude.php

http://evince.locusprime.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi

 

fizzymagic expressed some reservations about Certitude. Personally, I think the flaws he pointed out are also present in geochecker, but he's been caching a lot longer than me, so I'd suggest paying attention to what he's saying. Evince appears to be operated by Prime Suspect (from the domain).

 

and there is also geocheck.org.

 

Jim

[+Prime Suspect]

fizzymagic expressed some reservations about Certitude. Personally, I think the flaws he pointed out are also present in geochecker, but he's been caching a lot longer than me, so I'd suggest paying attention to what he's saying. Evince appears to be operated by Prime Suspect (from the domain).

I do run evince. Since there is absolutely no information encoded in the evince URL, it doesn't have the "reverse look-up" problem that some others do. The URL only contains a random, unique GUID. It is not created using the coordinates, or any other meaningful information. Only the unreversably-encoded hash value is stored. I don't even ask for any kind of cache ID, so there's no way to cross-reference the stored hash value of the coordinates with an actual cache page. From day one, I decided I wanted to emphasize security over bells-and-whistles. My actual model for the site is a combination of TinyURL and ImageShack, where you just request something, and it gives it to you, no passwords or accounts to remember.

[+Harry Dolphin]

And, there are puzzle caches for which Geochecker will not give you an exact answer.

Oh, well. You don't like puzzles without Geochecker, then don't do them.

[+fizzymagic]

I do run evince. Since there is absolutely no information encoded in the evince URL, it doesn't have the "reverse look-up" problem that some others do.

Actually, it has exactly the same problem as the other ones do, which is that the site owner can obtain the coordinates. It doesn't have the additional problem that Certitude does of promoting antisocial competitive behavior, though.

 

Only the unreversably-encoded hash value is stored. I don't even ask for any kind of cache ID, so there's no way to cross-reference the stored hash value of the coordinates with an actual cache page.

Oh, come on. You know better than that, dude. The GUID is in the URL, which is on the cache page, and the coordinates have to be within a couple miles, so finding the coords for any given puzzle is easy for the site owner.

 

Me, I generally tend to trust the owners of the coord checker sites, but to pretend that they cannot get the coordinates to any cache that uses their site is just disingenuous.

 

BTW, if you would fix the coord-entry thing so that I could cut-and-paste instead of having to laboriously switch between windows to type the coords into many, many input boxes, and get rid of the CAPTCHA (just use cookies and/or the IP address) I would rate Evince the highest of the checkers.

[+Prime Suspect]

BTW, if you would fix the coord-entry thing so that I could cut-and-paste instead of having to laboriously switch between windows to type the coords into many, many input boxes, and get rid of the CAPTCHA (just use cookies and/or the IP address) I would rate Evince the highest of the checkers.

Private email sent concerning non-quoted parts. I do intend to add the same type of paste-in box as is currently available in my Log Maximizer script. But the CAPTCHA stays. Cookies are easily cleared and IP addresses spoofed. The CAPTCHA is the last line of defense against brute-force automation. Yes, the CAPTCHA I use is tough. It's also uncracked, unlike the ones used by at least two other checkers. If someone has a problem reading the CAPTCHA, they can just click the browser refresh button to get a new one, without any kind of penalty.

 

As for my comment about 'it doesn't have the "reverse look-up" problem that some others do.', I was referring to the ability of others (not the site owner) to build up a "dictionary" of URLs for a specific area that is heavy with puzzles. Some checkers will always generate the same URL when you input the same set of coordinates. This is a huge, obvious security flaw. That's why some checkers restrict the number of URLs you can generate, since doing so also can act as a check. evince doesn't have this flaw, and does not restrict the number of URLs anyone can generate, since they will all be unique and can't be matched against an existing URL.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Prime Suspect

[+Chrysalides]

I do intend to add the same type of paste-in box as is currently available in my Log Maximizer script.

Why make it so complicated? Seems like a text box that is flexible enough to recognize a wide variety of coordinate formats would be best from end user point of view. Basically, anything that GSAK's "corrected coordinates" accepts.

[+flask]

back in the day, part of the adventure was going out on the road not knowing if our solved coordinates were correct.

 

if that meant a four-hour drive and ferry passage, it meant that. kept us on our toes.

 

you kids today and your corner-cutting...

[+niraD]

back in the day, part of the adventure was going out on the road not knowing if our solved coordinates were correct.

I haven't been doing this long enough to know about "back in the day", but I've gone back and correctly solved more than one puzzle after DNFing at the coordinates for my initial (incorrect) solution. As you said, it's part of the adventure.

[+Prime Suspect]

I do intend to add the same type of paste-in box as is currently available in my Log Maximizer script.

Why make it so complicated? Seems like a text box that is flexible enough to recognize a wide variety of coordinate formats would be best from end user point of view. Basically, anything that GSAK's "corrected coordinates" accepts.

Because it gives you confirmation that you're actually getting the coordinates you're expecting to get, before you press the "create" button.

[+Pat in Louisiana]

Ah yes flask.... back in the day!

Back in the day the only cache around was a half hour wade through a mosquito infested swamp to an ammo can full of poker cards and carabineers and a Harlequin novel. Now those were the day’s boy. My Eagle Explorer took an hour to find a signal and don’t go behind an oak tree or your signal is history. Batteries lasted two hours at best. Then it was off to the next cache some 45 miles away.

Yep “Back in the Day!

[+Chrysalides]

I do intend to add the same type of paste-in box as is currently available in my Log Maximizer script.

Why make it so complicated? Seems like a text box that is flexible enough to recognize a wide variety of coordinate formats would be best from end user point of view. Basically, anything that GSAK's "corrected coordinates" accepts.

Because it gives you confirmation that you're actually getting the coordinates you're expecting to get, before you press the "create" button.

I'm referring to the verification process, not the submission. After the user enters a coordinate and answered the CAPTCHA, the result page can say "N xx yy.zzz W aaa bb.ccc is correct / incorrect" giving some sort of feedback (or it could say "Your entry XXX is not recognized as a coordinate" with some examples.

 

For submission, it can be a two part process. First part user enters coordinate, then an intermediate page shows location on google map and ask for confirmation to create.

 

Just some suggestions from an end user who appreciates the many tools you provide

[+WRASTRO]

back in the day, part of the adventure was going out on the road not knowing if our solved coordinates were correct.

 

if that meant a four-hour drive and ferry passage, it meant that. kept us on our toes.

 

you kids today and your corner-cutting...

Right on Flask!

 

This topic seems to me to be all about "I should know that my coordinates are absolutely correct before I ever set foot out the door". I think that is a bunch of hogwash. This game is about adventure, excitement, RISK, reward, disappointment, success due to personal effort. You hopefully get the point.

 

If you want the cache location handed to you on a platter then I would suggest you limit yourself to 1/1 caches with a regular or large container size and a really good hint.

 

I often appreciate puzzle checkers but would find it to be a sad day if they were ever required on the GC.com site.

[+WRASTRO]

Ah yes flask.... back in the day!

Back in the day the only cache around was a half hour wade through a mosquito infested swamp to an ammo can full of poker cards and carabineers and a Harlequin novel. Now those were the day’s boy. My Eagle Explorer took an hour to find a signal and don’t go behind an oak tree or your signal is history. Batteries lasted two hours at best. Then it was off to the next cache some 45 miles away.

Yep “Back in the Day!

And you regret that the game has evolved such that you don't get to do these things anymore? Sounds like some fun and adventure to me.

 

Sure hope this game doesn't devolve into "here are the precise coordinates" and the terrain is a one star rating. Lots of those hides are already available. I hope lots of other hides continue to be available.

[+flask]

 

This topic seems to me to be all about "I should know that my coordinates are absolutely correct before I ever set foot out the door". I think that is a bunch of hogwash. This game is about adventure, excitement, RISK, reward, disappointment, success due to personal effort. You hopefully get the point.

 

thank you for understanding what i'm getting at.

 

while i will use a checker if one is provided, i don't expect one to be there. it used to be that part of doing a puzzle cache was the risk of going into the unknown with unverified coordinates.

 

you couldn't use the checker to force coords (which i sometimes do if a checker is provided; it isn't all that hard), and by golly that FTF really meant something. it was not only the good solvers that got out the door fastest, but the brave ones, the ones willing to take the leap and go even if it meant creeping around in the wrong forest in the dead of night.

 

if i want certainty, i can go to the grocery store and find stuff there.

 

caching for me is about navigating the unknown. as long as there's plenty of unknown out there, i'm happy.

 

 

...and if i know that most people won't go after a puzzle without a checker, tant mieux. more FTFs for me.

[+AbMagFab]

This topic seems to me to be all about "I should know that my coordinates are absolutely correct before I ever set foot out the door". I think that is a bunch of hogwash. This game is about adventure, excitement, RISK, reward, disappointment, success due to personal effort. You hopefully get the point.

 

If you want the cache location handed to you on a platter then I would suggest you limit yourself to 1/1 caches with a regular or large container size and a really good hint.

 

I often appreciate puzzle checkers but would find it to be a sad day if they were ever required on the GC.com site.

 

Oh please, you probably still use DOS and drive a 1972 Pinto, right?

 

SOLVING THE PUZZLE is a challenge. If your brain can only handle putting together a puzzle with one digit missing, then you probably shouldn't be putting together puzzle caches.

 

Logic and Math puzzles are black and white, so they don't *need* verification, but it's still nice.

 

However many many puzzles are vague. For example, one recent puzzle had a bunch of low-rez pictures that you had to figure out what they were, and how to get numbers based on that (involving searching the internet, loose pattern matching, etc.). Without giving too much away, the pattern matching was not a black-and-white exercise. Having the coordinate verification just makes sure you solved it properly.

 

And most (all?) of the coord verification tools limit you to something like 5 or 10 checks at a time. Again, unless you have a simple-minded one-digit puzzle, these aren't used to brute force, they're used to VERIFY THE SOLUTION.

 

However for all you 80286-loving, "All In The Family"-loving, everything-old-school-is-better snobs, you'll simply never understand (and probably never get out of the house except to geocache).

 

Whatever...

[+flask]

 

Oh please, you probably still use DOS and drive a 1972 Pinto, right?

 

well, no. i don't use anything that uses that newfangled elec-a-tricity.

 

 

SOLVING THE PUZZLE is a challenge. If your brain can only handle putting together a puzzle with one digit missing, then you probably shouldn't be putting together puzzle caches.

 

if your brain can't handle looking for a cache unless its location is explicitly spelled out for you, then you probably shouldn't be leaving your neighborhood.

 

 

Having the coordinate verification just makes sure you solved it properly.

 

 

finding the cache verifies that you have solved the puzzle properly.

 

 

And most (all?) of the coord verification tools limit you to something like 5 or 10 checks at a time. Again, unless you have a simple-minded one-digit puzzle, these aren't used to brute force, they're used to VERIFY THE SOLUTION.

 

 

it is very easy to use the checker to brute-force the puzzle. i've done it dozens of times, just because i can.

 

However for all you 80286-loving, "All In The Family"-loving, everything-old-school-is-better snobs, you'll simply never understand (and probably never get out of the house except to geocache).

 

wow. a little touchy there?

 

for all you instant-gratification-loving, shortcut-taking, validation-requiring, risk-averse greenhorns, you'll simply never understand (and probably never leave the house without a detailed list of specific instructions).

 

1. put on shoes. the shoes are next to the front door.

2. be sure to bring your maps and charts. i know you're only going to walmart, but you'll want to know EXACTLY where it is.

3. call ahead to both the store and the traffic hotline. be certain that your route is clear. be absolutely certain that the items you want are in stock.

4. proceed cautiously. DO NOT DEVIATE from your known route, not by one block.

5. park only in a parking space with which you are familiar. satellite imagery can help you with this.

6. have someone walk ahead of you to make sure the route into the store is safe.

7. call the store again to make sure that the items you wish to purchase are really in stock.

[+Renegade Knight]

...I'm almost at the point of not bothering if they don't have coord verification.

 

Some caches have an issue with math precision. You can calculate the solution be off 40' which is a completely different set of coods thant the 'real' solution and yet it's entirly close enough.

[+niraD]

Some caches have an issue with math precision. You can calculate the solution be off 40' which is a completely different set of coods thant the 'real' solution and yet it's entirly close enough.

Some coordinate verifiers have a "soft coordinates" mode, where they allow the CO to specify a radius. If the submitted coordinates are within that radius of the CO's solution, then the verifier confirms the submitted coordinates.

 

Of course, that makes it even easier to use the coordinate verifier to brute-force the solution...