Time for reform and updates?

3.1k · January 20, 2009

It seems that as Geocoins have blossomed into what we all see in this forum every day that we may need to make a move toward a united effort to improve the guidelines, FAQ, rules and ethics of Geocoining.

For too long now many of us have seen problems arise with people on all ends of geocoin production, distribution and trade. As you look to our FAQ pinned at the top, it was created at least 2 years ago (yet updated recently) and we may all benefit from a untied effort in this community to better the ethical use and distribution of geocoins.

So, without spending too much time outlining what we have all seen come and go here in the forum, I would like to challenge the community to join together with Groundspeak, our devoted moderators, usual suspects, newbies and lurkers and find a way to lay out clear, ethical and enjoyable expectations, rules, guidelines and legal definitions about all things Geocoin.

This thread should not become a place to air your concerns over past events. There is a pinned thread above for that. This thread should be used as a place to start the ball rolling on a process to better geocoining.

Perhaps we should take time to organize and represent each other and work in concert with Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers and moderators to find ways to clean up and make fair and ethical rules with which we all agree to abide by.

The floor is yours, mine and theirs to share how you think we should proceed in the improvement.

...and STAY ON TOPIC!

3.1k · January 20, 2009

I'll start, I suppose. I'm wondering (and hope the mods can chime in) if we shouldn't create a committee to help update and modify the FAQ, guidelines and rules relating to geocoin production, distribution, use and the such. There are lots and lots of experienced and respected voices out there, and we could all benefit from some discussion.

I get the feeling that many of us feel vulnerable to scams, fraud and the like when we see threads opening up about certain users or vendors. There are certainly respected and hated folks in all camps, and I think a more clear understanding of expectations and clear sanctions and penalties for apparent dishonesty, misuse and unethical behaviors. It may be very difficult to police, but at least we all would know where the community stands on the subject.

As long as Groundspeak reserves the right to tracking codes and their sales, there should certainly be consequences handed down from the powers that be for breaking the rules and regulations set out by the community. I can't believe that it has come to this over chucks of metal...but they are collectibles and man, oh man do they carry value in some cases! So, how about some constructive discourse?

2k · January 21, 2009

I think the rules are pretty straight forward, it seems we need a reminder from time to time , I also think mabie a few things could be added, to better suit new situations that have arose from the last time they were updated,or more indepth explanitions of how to solve problems resorting from things allowed to take place on the forums, i also think there should be some way of holding peps accountable for their actions, or someone could step in acting as a mediator, with both partys account activation, at risk-due to participate in the mediation process.- just a few ideas

24.7k · January 21, 2009

If you want to create GaG orders (Geocoin Association of Geocachers) you first need to create GaG. Then you can create GaG rules and call them Orders to certify coin makers, buyers, resellers to they are GaG Order Approved.

The problem with creating GaG is that this level of organization often invokes the Gag Reflex.

Edited January 21, 2009 by Renegade Knight

2.3k · January 21, 2009

If you want to create GaG orders (Geocoin Association of Geocachers) you first need to create GaG. Then you can GaG rules and call them Orders to certify coin makers, buyers, resellers to they are GaG Order Approved.

The problem with creating GaG is that this level of organization often invokes the Gag Reflex.

HA! LMAO!

22k · January 21, 2009

While I appreciate RK's humor I happen to agree.

Any sort of review concerning vendors would not happen here at gc.com.

January 21, 2009

Well I know that on a few of the other forums I requent for other loves in my life, like paintball and snowboarding, there is a traders feedback area. It offers a place for people to leave positive or negative feedback about a trader. I know it opens itself to a lot of mud flinging but if a person had more positves than negatives I may be more apt to trade with them rather than if they had more negatives. It is opinion based but at least it would be somewhere for a person to start if they wanted to trade with someone.

January 21, 2009

I don't see where the system is broke, therefore I question the value of trying to fix it. Geocoin and trackable rules may be loose but that is not bad as it allows for creativity and pushing limits which seems to be in keeping with the game.

It's just a game.

2.8k · January 21, 2009

I don't see where the system is broke, therefore I question the value of trying to fix it. Geocoin and trackable rules may be loose but that is not bad as it allows for creativity and pushing limits which seems to be in keeping with the game.

It's just a game.

In the geocoin world, people are losing money. That shouldn't be part of the game. I'm not on board with a committee, but I also don't take the recent turn of events lightly.

January 21, 2009

Sorry, I was looking at the initial objective "a united effort to improve the guidelines, FAQ, rules and ethics of Geocoining." That looks like part of the game to me.

Is the real issue the market for geocoins? There has been a lot of questionable products for a while and where you have money being exchanged you will attract questionable persons. It will be difficult for the initial objectives as stated to resolve either of these.

2.8k · January 21, 2009

Sorry, I was looking at the initial objective "a united effort to improve the guidelines, FAQ, rules and ethics of Geocoining." That looks like part of the game to me.

Is the real issue the market for geocoins? There has been a lot of questionable products for a while and where you have money being exchanged you will attract questionable persons. It will be difficult for the initial objectives as stated to resolve either of these.

I really think the only thing we can do is buy smarter. Don't buy from shady characters. Buy from people with good reputations.

January 21, 2009

Is the real issue the market for geocoins? There has been a lot of questionable products for a while and where you have money being exchanged you will attract questionable persons. It will be difficult for the initial objectives as stated to resolve either of these.

A lot of the geocoin forum involves the geocoin market.

IMO, Geocoins are not questionable products, it is their value that is questionable, due to the wildly fluctutating prices they fetch on epay. Geocoins are more in line with the art market than the commodities market.

IMO, the Geocoin market is ideally suited to regulation for many reasons; The overwhelming majority of current geocoin vendors are honest. Its a small market. Geocoins are trackable which means their design and manufacture have to fit within certain parameters set by Groundspeak.

22k · January 21, 2009

Geocoins are trackable which means their design and manufacture have to fit within certain parameters set by Groundspeak.

Just for the topic of discussion, why is that? Outside of the sale of tracking numbers and various on-site logging guidelines, what does gc.com have to do with design and manufacturing of geocoins?

January 21, 2009

Geocoins are trackable which means their design and manufacture have to fit within certain parameters set by Groundspeak.

Just for the topic of discussion, why is that? Outside of the sale of tracking numbers and various on-site logging guidelines, what does gc.com have to do with design and manufacturing of geocoins?

Have a look at the "Worst idea for a geocoin" thread to see what geocoins would be available if Groundspeak were not in the picture

8k · January 21, 2009

Geocoins are trackable which means their design and manufacture have to fit within certain parameters set by Groundspeak.

Not all geocoins are trackable. Those that aren't trackable can be discussed in the forums and traded but can't be sold in the fourms or linked to an outside sale..

January 21, 2009

Geocoins are trackable which means their design and manufacture have to fit within certain parameters set by Groundspeak.

Not all geocoins are trackable. Those that aren't trackable can be discussed in the forums and traded but can't be sold in the fourms or linked to an outside sale..

True, but I am looking ahead to the future and assuming that a "geocoin" will be something with a Groundspeak tracking number on it. It may not even look like a coin or be made of metal.

Edited January 21, 2009 by haysonics

24.7k · January 21, 2009

...Geocoins are trackable which means their design and manufacture have to fit within certain parameters set by Groundspeak.

While tracking on a caching site (not always this one) is sometimes the only thing an object has in common with a geocoin it's not what makes a coin a geocoin.

My personal coin will not be subject to any rules by any organization real or proposed. If by chance an org later wants to give it a thumbs up and bless it as "Grade A Prime Coin Fodder" great.

A geocoin is whatever the community thinks is a coin. There is a lot of things that I don't find worthy of the name and a lot of those have tracking numbers. It wasn't my call when I first thought about it. It's not my call now.

January 21, 2009

<snip> The overwhelming majority of current geocoin vendors are honest. Its a small market. <snip>

As a vendor I may be biased but I agree that the majority are honest. Unfortunately the few that aren't are really hurting the majority that are! What can we do to distinguish ourselves? I don't like the idea of adding rules and certifications, but if that is what its going to take to show that our company is reputable then so be it!

So many people have been saying that we should only buy from companies that are 'established' and 'reputable'... but if all we hear is the negative how do people seperate the good from those who are just not-a-scammer-yet?

In an ideal world happy customers do your marketing for you, but realisticly we tend to only hear about the 'bad apples' on here. Perhaps are we going about this backwards? In addition to the delinquent vendor thread is it time for a positive experience thread?

Just some rambling thoughts... :yikes:

2k · January 21, 2009

<snip> The overwhelming majority of current geocoin vendors are honest. Its a small market. <snip>

As a vendor I may be biased but I agree that the majority are honest. Unfortunately the few that aren't are really hurting the majority that are! What can we do to distinguish ourselves? I don't like the idea of adding rules and certifications, but if that is what its going to take to show that our company is reputable then so be it!

So many people have been saying that we should only buy from companies that are 'established' and 'reputable'... but if all we hear is the negative how do people seperate the good from those who are just not-a-scammer-yet?

In an ideal world happy customers do your marketing for you, but realisticly we tend to only hear about the 'bad apples' on here. Perhaps are we going about this backwards? In addition to the delinquent vendor thread is it time for a positive experience thread?

Just some rambling thoughts...

here here, i second that-positive thinking!!

i think never summers idea here is to keep the newbies and peps that might go astray on the right path by makeing the guidelines more clear or more accessable-- how many times a month do you see the questions that are answered in the pinned threads pop up from a newbie, that never read the pinned topic?? ive done it so im not harping, what m saying is,, why do you think those same questions keep coming up, because they dont know or cant see where to get the answers.

9.8k · January 21, 2009

My new rule.... file paypal claim at 44 days no matter what. That will solve the problem for me.

3k · January 21, 2009

It seems that as Geocoins have blossomed into what we all see in this forum every day that we may need to make a move toward a united effort to improve the guidelines, FAQ, rules and ethics of Geocoining.

For too long now many of us have seen problems arise with people on all ends of geocoin production, distribution and trade. As you look to our FAQ pinned at the top, it was created at least 2 years ago (yet updated recently) and we may all benefit from a untied effort in this community to better the ethical use and distribution of geocoins.

So, without spending too much time outlining what we have all seen come and go here in the forum, I would like to challenge the community to join together with Groundspeak, our devoted moderators, usual suspects, newbies and lurkers and find a way to lay out clear, ethical and enjoyable expectations, rules, guidelines and legal definitions about all things Geocoin.

This thread should not become a place to air your concerns over past events. There is a pinned thread above for that. This thread should be used as a place to start the ball rolling on a process to better geocoining.

Perhaps we should take time to organize and represent each other and work in concert with Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers and moderators to find ways to clean up and make fair and ethical rules with which we all agree to abide by.

The floor is yours, mine and theirs to share how you think we should proceed in the improvement.

...and STAY ON TOPIC!

I hear everyone's concerns and they pretty much mirror what I'm reading every day in the forums. I question whether the problem is as big as it sometimes appears to be. I work for local news stations and we report what's going on everyday around the area. It's no surprise that for every 1 feel-good or positive story there are at least 6 negative stories. It's become so one-sided that local news is now the number one contributor of violence on tv. I'm wondering if our geocoin forum has been traveling this same path. Are we spending too much time concentrating on the bad instead of the good? I've been buying and trading coins for a few years now. I think it's safe to say I've had about a thousand transactions to date. I can also count on one hand the bad experiences I've had. Some have had better luck than me, some have had worse. I wonder if trying to regulate all these sales and trades is going to be good or bad in the long run though. There will always being someone seeking to abuse any system. There will always be an unwitting dupe to their efforts. Should we let these few experiences define the overall experience of collecting, trading and sharing geocoins with others???

We've all heard the motto "Don't say anything if you can't say something nice." I've also heard "You don't need to tell people how good you are. If you're that good, they'll tell you." I wonder what our forum would be like right now if these ideals were rules? Just food for thought. :wacko:

2.8k · January 21, 2009

We've all heard the motto "Don't say anything if you can't say something nice." I've also heard "You don't need to tell people how good you are. If you're that good, they'll tell you." I wonder what our forum would be like right now if these ideals were rules? Just food for thought.

While I like this idea in theory, in the real world, if everybody only said nice things, then nobody would know when someone is taking advantage of the community.

I think most of the threads on this forum are positive. I look at the front page and I see newbies asking for advice and getting great answers. I see a few cointests. I see new coin announcements. Missions and Mystery coins! So much good stuff. That is by far the majority of threads on this forum.

But to keep quiet when you are taken advantage of? We've done that. I kept my mouth shut in the forum for a year after someone took advantage of me. That person went on to take advantage of many others on the forum. I regret not speaking up sooner! One of the coins that has yet to make an appearance, was on sale from March to August!

I'm not on board with a committee, as I've said before. I will continue to buy from those folks who put out quality products, and have worked hard to maintain a good reputation in the community.

2.8k · January 21, 2009

<snip> The overwhelming majority of current geocoin vendors are honest. Its a small market. <snip>

As a vendor I may be biased but I agree that the majority are honest. Unfortunately the few that aren't are really hurting the majority that are! What can we do to distinguish ourselves? I don't like the idea of adding rules and certifications, but if that is what its going to take to show that our company is reputable then so be it!

So many people have been saying that we should only buy from companies that are 'established' and 'reputable'... but if all we hear is the negative how do people seperate the good from those who are just not-a-scammer-yet?

In an ideal world happy customers do your marketing for you, but realisticly we tend to only hear about the 'bad apples' on here. Perhaps are we going about this backwards? In addition to the delinquent vendor thread is it time for a positive experience thread?

Just some rambling thoughts...

Every time that you post a new coin, you get positive response! You have returning customers. As I said before, the overwhelming majority of threads on this forum are positive!

I've bought from you several times, and it has always been a great experience!

3.1k · January 21, 2009

I have never, ever had a bad experience with a trade or purchase. In fact, I'm often surprised by who suddenly appears on some kind of blacklist for some reason.

FSM urged this thread to discuss, and I'd be interested to hear the mod's take on how things are going. It seems like there are issues here and there, and my peeve is that it spills into the forum without exhausting options outlined in the FAQ or guidelines.

So, really, in most cases of "bringing concerns to the forum publicly" goes against these two guidelines listed:

"* Those choosing to participate in an exchange on this board take full responsibility for any consequences of that exchange. Groundspeak is in no way involved in the sale or trading of items on this board and will not be held responsible or liable in any way for quality issues, fraud or any default of transfer on the part of the buyer or seller.
* Individual negotiations or information exchanges should take place through private e-mail or telephone correspondence, not on this board. Please use the communication tools provided on the site or private email."

(Emphasis added by me)

So, how should we, the geocoin community deal with issues as they arise? According to the Guidelines, there should be only for "selling, trading or giving away of geocoins which are trackable on Geocaching.com", and not to call people out or start a flamewar or slight against coiners or cachers. However, being able to give feedback (agreed that a "positive feedback" thread would be the most useful) seems like a good idea.

4.9k · January 21, 2009

I have never, ever had a bad experience with a trade or purchase. In fact, I'm often surprised by who suddenly appears on some kind of blacklist for some reason.

FSM urged this thread to discuss, and I'd be interested to hear the mod's take on how things are going. It seems like there are issues here and there, and my peeve is that it spills into the forum without exhausting options outlined in the FAQ or guidelines.

So, really, in most cases of "bringing concerns to the forum publicly" goes against these two guidelines listed:

"* Those choosing to participate in an exchange on this board take full responsibility for any consequences of that exchange. Groundspeak is in no way involved in the sale or trading of items on this board and will not be held responsible or liable in any way for quality issues, fraud or any default of transfer on the part of the buyer or seller.
* Individual negotiations or information exchanges should take place through private e-mail or telephone correspondence, not on this board. Please use the communication tools provided on the site or private email."

(Emphasis added by me)

So, how should we, the geocoin community deal with issues as they arise? According to the Guidelines, there should be only for "selling, trading or giving away of geocoins which are trackable on Geocaching.com", and not to call people out or start a flamewar or slight against coiners or cachers. However, being able to give feedback (agreed that a "positive feedback" thread would be the most useful) seems like a good idea.

Having just admitted you have never, ever had a bad trade/purchase experience (not even sure how much you actually trade or buy). Seems a bit unempathetic to highlight and post guidelines that most people are pretty much aware of already. Anyone having read the threads will see that most of the people with problems have exhausted those methods. How many times can someone expect to bang their head against a wall? People are tired of getting screwed over. In some of these cases, the good of the all outweighs those being 'put out' by the drama threads. If you sent me $100 for geocoins, emailed me 25 times, had no telephone number to reach me, couldn't get a paypal refund because you 'stuck with me' while I lied to you about the progress of the coins and no longer had any recourse. Tell me you wouldn't be upset and expect some manner of recourse which would happen to be a 'public outing'. It seems to me that the majority of people don't/won't speak up because they are afraid for a number of reasons. It gets really old when someone is chided for speaking up on here when they get screwed over. I for one prefer that more people speak up, it lets the newbs know who and what to watch for and helps others come forward. I can tell you that so many more people have continued to keep silent than have spoken out because they don't want to create waves. There are just times when guidelines/rules need to be set aside (as has happened here within reason) so that issues can be resolved. Positive feedback while nice does nothing but hype a company. Negative feedback and issues need to be recognized. Had some of these people spoke up sooner, others wouldn't be out so much $$$ and some of us might not have lost business because of it. This is much larger than an individual or two's feelings about not liking the negative/drama threads. If it's relative to the thread or exposes a negative behavior to a seller or trader, than tough cookies, you sew what you reap. there, whew, got that off my chest

3k · January 21, 2009

We've all heard the motto "Don't say anything if you can't say something nice." I've also heard "You don't need to tell people how good you are. If you're that good, they'll tell you." I wonder what our forum would be like right now if these ideals were rules? Just food for thought.

While I like this idea in theory, in the real world, if everybody only said nice things, then nobody would know when someone is taking advantage of the community.

I think most of the threads on this forum are positive. I look at the front page and I see newbies asking for advice and getting great answers. I see a few cointests. I see new coin announcements. Missions and Mystery coins! So much good stuff. That is by far the majority of threads on this forum.

But to keep quiet when you are taken advantage of? We've done that. I kept my mouth shut in the forum for a year after someone took advantage of me. That person went on to take advantage of many others on the forum. I regret not speaking up sooner! One of the coins that has yet to make an appearance, was on sale from March to August!

I'm not on board with a committee, as I've said before. I will continue to buy from those folks who put out quality products, and have worked hard to maintain a good reputation in the community.

I think you're right in that we shouldn't allow people to be taken advantage of, but I'm wondering like NeverSummer if there's a positive-focus way to do it. I buy from ebay sellers that have a high satisfaction rate posted by customers. I'd love to see a trader rating of a somehow similar nature. I don't know that it's necessarily something that should be a responsibility of Groundspeak except in the case of companies that sell products through these forums. I'd like to see a satisfaction rating system though. I'm just wondering how it could be done in a way that's not going to detract from the fun we've been having so far.

January 21, 2009

We've all heard the motto "Don't say anything if you can't say something nice." I've also heard "You don't need to tell people how good you are. If you're that good, they'll tell you." I wonder what our forum would be like right now if these ideals were rules? Just food for thought.

While I like this idea in theory, in the real world, if everybody only said nice things, then nobody would know when someone is taking advantage of the community.

I think most of the threads on this forum are positive. I look at the front page and I see newbies asking for advice and getting great answers. I see a few cointests. I see new coin announcements. Missions and Mystery coins! So much good stuff. That is by far the majority of threads on this forum.

But to keep quiet when you are taken advantage of? We've done that. I kept my mouth shut in the forum for a year after someone took advantage of me. That person went on to take advantage of many others on the forum. I regret not speaking up sooner! One of the coins that has yet to make an appearance, was on sale from March to August!

I'm not on board with a committee, as I've said before. I will continue to buy from those folks who put out quality products, and have worked hard to maintain a good reputation in the community.

I concur with all that has been said here. I also see a few bad apples sitting comfortably in the knowledge that they can continue to let people down and nobody can bring them to task over it.

I don't like reading bad news either, but sticking your head in the sand and pretending it doesn't happen, sticking your fingers in your ears and not listening and banning people from outing bad practices isn't helping anyone. To suggest as NeverSummer has that we update the guidlines is tosh and the quote of

Individual negotiations or information exchanges should take place through private e-mail or telephone correspondence when numerous people are getting screwed over it goes beyond 'individual' and this community has a duty of care to inform each other of dubious dealings.

Are we all getting so politically correct these days we can't even call a spade a spade anymore?????, it's ridiculous.

3k · January 21, 2009

I concur with all that has been said here. I also see a few bad apples sitting comfortably in the knowledge that they can continue to let people down and nobody can bring them to task over it.

I don't like reading bad news either, but sticking your head in the sand and pretending it doesn't happen, sticking your fingers in your ears and not listening and banning people from outing bad practices isn't helping anyone. To suggest as NeverSummer has that we update the guidlines is tosh and the quote of

Individual negotiations or information exchanges should take place through private e-mail or telephone correspondence when numerous people are getting screwed over it goes beyond 'individual' and this community has a duty of care to inform each other of dubious dealings.

Are we all getting so politically correct these days we can't even call a spade a spade anymore?????, it's ridiculous.

Bad things have and do happen. I think people should be informed, too. What I'd like to see is a system that can do it fairly. That being said, I'd really like to avoid seeing new coiners becoming paranoid that everyone is going to try to rip them off at every turn. If they see people who are recognized for their good practices, that's a start. The hardest thing I see as an issue is how do we report the people not living up to their end of dealings without opening the possibility for abuse of the system. Ebay has a one-response setup for a deal gone sour. Each deal has one chance to be positive or negative. This gives a more even playing field. The question is how can we make something like this work in a similar light for us?

I started trades based on my faith in the community. Sure, I've been burned a couple times and learned my lessons. I honestly believe the great majority of all dealings are going to go well though and don't want to see an ugly turn in the initial approach to trading. If you've done bad, you should be called out for it. The burden of proof remains though. One person booing can be heard over a hundred people clapping though so how do we know it's being done for the right reasons and how could we filter out personal grudges, etc.?

January 21, 2009

Well I'm no longer subscribed to cointracking as I don't really trade anymore, but I seem to remember there was a feature on that site that allowed feedback on trades.

3.1k · January 21, 2009

Having just admitted you have never, ever had a bad trade/purchase experience (not even sure how much you actually trade or buy). Seems a bit unempathetic to highlight and post guidelines that most people are pretty much aware of already. Anyone having read the threads will see that most of the people with problems have exhausted those methods. How many times can someone expect to bang their head against a wall? People are tired of getting screwed over. In some of these cases, the good of the all outweighs those being 'put out' by the drama threads. If you sent me $100 for geocoins, emailed me 25 times, had no telephone number to reach me, couldn't get a paypal refund because you 'stuck with me' while I lied to you about the progress of the coins and no longer had any recourse. Tell me you wouldn't be upset and expect some manner of recourse which would happen to be a 'public outing'. It seems to me that the majority of people don't/won't speak up because they are afraid for a number of reasons. It gets really old when someone is chided for speaking up on here when they get screwed over. I for one prefer that more people speak up, it lets the newbs know who and what to watch for and helps others come forward. I can tell you that so many more people have continued to keep silent than have spoken out because they don't want to create waves. There are just times when guidelines/rules need to be set aside (as has happened here within reason) so that issues can be resolved. Positive feedback while nice does nothing but hype a company. Negative feedback and issues need to be recognized. Had some of these people spoke up sooner, others wouldn't be out so much $$$ and some of us might not have lost business because of it. This is much larger than an individual or two's feelings about not liking the negative/drama threads. If it's relative to the thread or exposes a negative behavior to a seller or trader, than tough cookies, you sew what you reap. there, whew, got that off my chest

Hold those horses!

I posted the guidelines for the exact reason that is seems a bit outdated (written in 2006, I think?) and is not taking into account the possible assistance Groundspeak could offer once the options have been exhausted. I appreciate your feedback, but you're firing guns in the wrong direction. I'm wondering IF it is time for Groundspeak, the moderators, and the "community" to put our heads together to find a better way to handle it. It seems like a good time to ask for some community input to get a new discourse started...

I get it. I'm not "cool" with people who have screwed duped buyers. There should really be some sanctions taken against those geocaching account holders that use this site to conduct business and may act unethically. I am fortunate that I have not had a bad experience trading (I've traded as much as I need for my collection--Hi, I'm NeverSummer, have we met?--and buy when I see a coin I like. And I don't stay up til all hours for presales or coin launches, so I don't buy from everyone.), and count my blessings. I keep up on the crazy things that have happened recently with coin companies, traders, cointest holders and the lot. I hear it loud and clear. Heck, I see the fault that exists in the system, and wonder what stake GS takes in all of this.

Geocoin sales have blown up in just 4 years of my time on this site. I can't even keep up most of the time with all of the new ones designed and released every day. I think it is time to ask ourselves, and those we support (GS and coin vendors) what they can offer to better the community and deal with those who exploit it.

Glad I got that off my chest...

January 21, 2009

Having just admitted you have never, ever had a bad trade/purchase experience (not even sure how much you actually trade or buy). Seems a bit unempathetic to highlight and post guidelines that most people are pretty much aware of already. Anyone having read the threads will see that most of the people with problems have exhausted those methods. How many times can someone expect to bang their head against a wall? People are tired of getting screwed over. In some of these cases, the good of the all outweighs those being 'put out' by the drama threads. If you sent me $100 for geocoins, emailed me 25 times, had no telephone number to reach me, couldn't get a paypal refund because you 'stuck with me' while I lied to you about the progress of the coins and no longer had any recourse. Tell me you wouldn't be upset and expect some manner of recourse which would happen to be a 'public outing'. It seems to me that the majority of people don't/won't speak up because they are afraid for a number of reasons. It gets really old when someone is chided for speaking up on here when they get screwed over. I for one prefer that more people speak up, it lets the newbs know who and what to watch for and helps others come forward. I can tell you that so many more people have continued to keep silent than have spoken out because they don't want to create waves. There are just times when guidelines/rules need to be set aside (as has happened here within reason) so that issues can be resolved. Positive feedback while nice does nothing but hype a company. Negative feedback and issues need to be recognized. Had some of these people spoke up sooner, others wouldn't be out so much $$$ and some of us might not have lost business because of it. This is much larger than an individual or two's feelings about not liking the negative/drama threads. If it's relative to the thread or exposes a negative behavior to a seller or trader, than tough cookies, you sew what you reap. there, whew, got that off my chest

Hold those horses!

I posted the guidelines for the exact reason that is seems a bit outdated (written in 2006, I think?) and is not taking into account the possible assistance Groundspeak could offer once the options have been exhausted. I appreciate your feedback, but you're firing guns in the wrong direction. I'm wondering IF it is time for Groundspeak, the moderators, and the "community" to put our heads together to find a better way to handle it. It seems like a good time to ask for some community input to get a new discourse started...

I get it. I'm not "cool" with people who have screwed duped buyers. There should really be some sanctions taken against those geocaching account holders that use this site to conduct business and may act unethically. I am fortunate that I have not had a bad experience trading (I've traded as much as I need for my collection--Hi, I'm NeverSummer, have we met?--and buy when I see a coin I like. And I don't stay up til all hours for presales or coin launches, so I don't buy from everyone.), and count my blessings. I keep up on the crazy things that have happened recently with coin companies, traders, cointest holders and the lot. I hear it loud and clear. Heck, I see the fault that exists in the system, and wonder what stake GS takes in all of this.

Geocoin sales have blown up in just 4 years of my time on this site. I can't even keep up most of the time with all of the new ones designed and released every day. I think it is time to ask ourselves, and those we support (GS and coin vendors) what they can offer to better the community and deal with those who exploit it.

Glad I got that off my chest...

I see more clearly now what you are saying, and whilst I applaud your intent I have to question how viable it is. I don't see GC ever getting involved, it would be just too time consuming and a drain on resources for no benefit, so from a purely business point of view it just isn't going to happen (IMO). I think the pinned thread on feedback is about the best we are going to get. As Fox-and-the-hound has pointed out, how can we filter out personal grudges etc - plain and simple you can't, no more than you can give an assurance that ABC Company is 100% reliable - trust is gained over time, it isn't automatic - and there are idiots out there, you can't protect us from the idiots, if only.

4.9k · January 21, 2009

Having just admitted you have never, ever had a bad trade/purchase experience (not even sure how much you actually trade or buy). Seems a bit unempathetic to highlight and post guidelines that most people are pretty much aware of already. Anyone having read the threads will see that most of the people with problems have exhausted those methods. How many times can someone expect to bang their head against a wall? People are tired of getting screwed over. In some of these cases, the good of the all outweighs those being 'put out' by the drama threads. If you sent me $100 for geocoins, emailed me 25 times, had no telephone number to reach me, couldn't get a paypal refund because you 'stuck with me' while I lied to you about the progress of the coins and no longer had any recourse. Tell me you wouldn't be upset and expect some manner of recourse which would happen to be a 'public outing'. It seems to me that the majority of people don't/won't speak up because they are afraid for a number of reasons. It gets really old when someone is chided for speaking up on here when they get screwed over. I for one prefer that more people speak up, it lets the newbs know who and what to watch for and helps others come forward. I can tell you that so many more people have continued to keep silent than have spoken out because they don't want to create waves. There are just times when guidelines/rules need to be set aside (as has happened here within reason) so that issues can be resolved. Positive feedback while nice does nothing but hype a company. Negative feedback and issues need to be recognized. Had some of these people spoke up sooner, others wouldn't be out so much $$$ and some of us might not have lost business because of it. This is much larger than an individual or two's feelings about not liking the negative/drama threads. If it's relative to the thread or exposes a negative behavior to a seller or trader, than tough cookies, you sew what you reap. there, whew, got that off my chest

Hold those horses!

I posted the guidelines for the exact reason that is seems a bit outdated (written in 2006, I think?) and is not taking into account the possible assistance Groundspeak could offer once the options have been exhausted. I appreciate your feedback, but you're firing guns in the wrong direction. I'm wondering IF it is time for Groundspeak, the moderators, and the "community" to put our heads together to find a better way to handle it. It seems like a good time to ask for some community input to get a new discourse started...

I get it. I'm not "cool" with people who have screwed duped buyers. There should really be some sanctions taken against those geocaching account holders that use this site to conduct business and may act unethically. I am fortunate that I have not had a bad experience trading (I've traded as much as I need for my collection--Hi, I'm NeverSummer, have we met?--and buy when I see a coin I like. And I don't stay up til all hours for presales or coin launches, so I don't buy from everyone.), and count my blessings. I keep up on the crazy things that have happened recently with coin companies, traders, cointest holders and the lot. I hear it loud and clear. Heck, I see the fault that exists in the system, and wonder what stake GS takes in all of this.

Geocoin sales have blown up in just 4 years of my time on this site. I can't even keep up most of the time with all of the new ones designed and released every day. I think it is time to ask ourselves, and those we support (GS and coin vendors) what they can offer to better the community and deal with those who exploit it.

Glad I got that off my chest...

Glad you could explain it in a way that made it more clear. The way you posted made it seem otherwise I wasn't firing at you but only around you

3.5k · January 21, 2009

This is a very interesting thread. While I'm not an active coin maker or trader anymore I do lurk here on this board and have followed the issues.

I get the idea that RK was kidding about the committee idea, but I think it's an idea worth exploring. Most industries and hobbies have a governing body of some sort. For geocaching we have the rules and guidelines from this web site and our local groups, but for geocoins there is nothing like that (that I know of).

Why not put together a committee to hash out some general guidelines? I'd be willing to help get it started.

3.1k · January 22, 2009

I see more clearly now what you are saying, and whilst I applaud your intent I have to question how viable it is. I don't see GC ever getting involved, it would be just too time consuming and a drain on resources for no benefit, so from a purely business point of view it just isn't going to happen (IMO). I think the pinned thread on feedback is about the best we are going to get. As Fox-and-the-hound has pointed out, how can we filter out personal grudges etc - plain and simple you can't, no more than you can give an assurance that ABC Company is 100% reliable - trust is gained over time, it isn't automatic - and there are idiots out there, you can't protect us from the idiots, if only.

Well, Groundspeak/Geocaching/Volunteers have asked us to get involved. Flying Spaghetti Monster asked if I could open a thread to get the conversation started. It's up to US to start the conversation, and if you have suggestions this is the place to share them. If we are really such a backscratching, you're-my-pal community, this may be our time to put our gumbled whispers out into a discussion.

IMO, this would be a great thread for vendors, buyers and others to get out what they may have been keeping in. There's no reason a company with a ruined reputation couldn't learn from their mistakes and offer suggestions on how errors and ethical whoopsies can be avoided. And for those who are reluctant to buy due to all the nasty things that have happened, they can chime in too. Feel like you've exhausted your options in trying to resolve an issue? Here's your spot to offer SUGGESTIONS on how the guidelines could be improved. And (how great is this), there will be NO flaming, $#!+talking or blamewars in this thread. This is our opportunity to buck up and think of ways to clarify Groundspeak's, vendor's and buyer's place in this community to get us back to a fun, fair and ethical GAME.

And, in my opinion, Groundspeak DOES have something to speak to, as many (not all) geocoins are trackable and must be paid and approved through their company. If we are required to pay for tracking numbers, icons and such, Groundspeak holds interests in many vendors and their behaviors. (Vendors have to buy the codes from them, and so on...)

Personal grudges are not tolerated, and Eartha and FSM do a great job keeping it in check.

So, here's an idea (just an idea, no need to rip me a new one!):

Any thread offering feedback or "issues", negative or positive, will not be allowed unless the author can provide our moderators confirmation that they have "exhausted" contact options. This can involve whatever process TPTB decide. And thus, Groundspeak would be alerted to issues and could apply appropriate overt, consistent sanctions (issue no more codes to a company, suspended in forums, account locked, etc), and allow the rest of us to know what is going on. Now, this isn't unlike what we already have for the "delay and feedback" thread pinned above, so I don't know if this would be best. Again, it's just an idea...I'll get on my asbestos bodysuit now...

3.1k · January 22, 2009

This is a very interesting thread. While I'm not an active coin maker or trader anymore I do lurk here on this board and have followed the issues.

I get the idea that RK was kidding about the committee idea, but I think it's an idea worth exploring. Most industries and hobbies have a governing body of some sort. For geocaching we have the rules and guidelines from this web site and our local groups, but for geocoins there is nothing like that (that I know of).

Why not put together a committee to hash out some general guidelines? I'd be willing to help get it started.

Well, there are folks already heading up Geocoinfest and similar efforts and endeavors, so it should be possible to look into it...

2.2k · January 22, 2009

I think that the vendor delays thread was a good start. It ties into what I've been thinking, which is this:

- a vendor should not offer a coin for presale or reservation without having the finished art from the mint in hand. I realize that mints charge money for this art, but it is a small outlay, I think, if you are serious about trying to sell a coin. Plus, if you do reservations and it turns out there's not enough interest, you just shelve it until later; when you're ready, the art is ready to go.

---- the reason why I suggest this is because sometimes getting the mint art just right can take a long time. I'm sure that all potential buyers are totally on board with you wanting the art to be just right; on the other hand, I don't think it's good business practice to ask people to wait months for the back-and-forth to be done.

---- However, I think it would be okay with you taking reservations based on pre-mint art, as long as it's reservations (not pre-sales), and you are completely clear that the art is in a pre-mint stage (and then provide lots of updates).

- having the art on-hand allows the vendor to generate a timeline, even a rough one. The timeline should include:

--- o end of reservation/presale

--- o estimated shipping date (which is the mint's shipping date plus, say, two to four weeks, depending on where the vendor is in the world and how well their postal system process mail from the mint's country). Add "slop" in here to cover postal issues -- it's better to announce that the coins are in early than to say that they've been delayed)

--- o shipping complete

- make sure that every customer receives a notice when his or her coins have been shipped.

- vendors should provide regular updates when those "wicket" days are approaching. Such as "the mint has informed us that due to the complexity of the design, production is taking a bit longer than we expected; the new ship date is xxxxx" and then update your calendar.

- vendors should instantly provide refunds to those who request them.

- vendors should make all reasonable attempts to respond to customers who write them.

This is my short list of vendor guidelines -- that is, actions and practices that would be required by Groundspeak in order for a vendor to remain in good standing with Groundspeak (i.e., to continue to maintain the ability to purchase codes).

The vendor delay thread should then be utilized by people whose vendors are not keeping up with the guidelines -- for example, those whose "wicket" dates have passed and who have not provided updates. If a vendor is consistently violating the guidelines for more than three projects, then that vendor's ability to purchase future tracking codes should be suspended until those three projects are in line with the guildelines and -- if the issue is the missing of deadlines -- the projects are complete, as evidenced by the majority (90%) of the people who posted in the vendor delay thread reporting that they have received their product.

People who post in the vendor delay thread need to understand that it is not only their responsibility to report problems, but also to report those problems' solutions -- that is, don't just post that you didn't get your coins; when you get your coins, it's vital that you report that, too.

This is just what I can think of off the top of my head. I think that Groundspeak having guidelines and expectations for both vendors and customers is a good idea.

(Edited for outline layout)

Edited January 22, 2009 by Jackalgirl

2.2k · January 22, 2009

I just wanted to add is that I think the major problems have been due to two things:

- Communication -- lack of has been shown to be a major issue.

- Discipline -- this includes the discipline to keep on top of your deadlines (and keep people informed about them), the discipline to keep meticulous records of what's going on with your business (orders placed, money taken in and from whom, money spent, etc) and discipline needed by business owners to keep their business and personal affairs (and money) separate. As a business owner and a procrastinator, I can tell you that having the discipline to keep everything separate (and properly documented) is an absolute PITA. But it is completely necessary, as we have seen.

January 22, 2009

<snip> The overwhelming majority of current geocoin vendors are honest. Its a small market. <snip>

As a vendor I may be biased but I agree that the majority are honest. Unfortunately the few that aren't are really hurting the majority that are! What can we do to distinguish ourselves? I don't like the idea of adding rules and certifications, but if that is what its going to take to show that our company is reputable then so be it!

So many people have been saying that we should only buy from companies that are 'established' and 'reputable'... but if all we hear is the negative how do people seperate the good from those who are just not-a-scammer-yet?

In an ideal world happy customers do your marketing for you, but realisticly we tend to only hear about the 'bad apples' on here. Perhaps are we going about this backwards? In addition to the delinquent vendor thread is it time for a positive experience thread?

Just some rambling thoughts...

This is what I am talking about with a FEEDBACK forum on other forums I frequent. It is a subforum that is for both POSITIVE and NEGATIVE feedback for traders and vendors. Like I have brought up before I was surprised that a place that has a trade and sell area didn't have a feedback area.

3.1k · January 22, 2009

As lofty as your expectations may be, I highly doubt a committee would accomplish anything for the collective of the geocoin community, but more so for the committee itself. If this is doomed to be, it should be sanctioned by Groundspeak, and I think the committee should be chosen by the community rather than by ones too eager to serve and assert power. There are enough elitist members as it is. Disregarding the rules Groundspeak has set forth is inherently a bad idea IMO. The rules that apply to one should apply to all. This is not a new issue.

I agree, to a point. I don't think it should be the willing who head it up. I think a representative sample would be best if it were to happen.

And, again, FSM asked this conversation to get started. It sounds like if we the community take it seriously, they will take us seriously. It can't hurt to try to include the community in any updates to the guidelines. There seems to be a need to update just the language of Bryan's original pinned post, and there could be some great conversations about protections and generally updating things for clarity and efficacy now that geocoining has grown to what it is, some 7-8 years after genesis.

edit for spelling

Edited January 22, 2009 by NeverSummer

3.1k · January 22, 2009

This is what I am talking about with a FEEDBACK forum on other forums I frequent. It is a subforum that is for both POSITIVE and NEGATIVE feedback for traders and vendors. Like I have brought up before I was surprised that a place that has a trade and sell area didn't have a feedback area.

It's an idea that sounds like many people might get behind. However, I think that we would lose clarity in the process unless it is made complicated by breaking it down by individual vendor. Otherwise, it would become a jumble like the trading thread, where it can move faster than some frequent the forums.

Just continuing the conversation...

2.2k · January 22, 2009

Other thoughts --

-- The guidelines for customers should include that it's the vendor's right to refuse service to customers. So if a person's complaint is that the vendor won't allow him/her to reserve 10 sets of coins when he/she has done so five times before and failed to follow through and pay up for those previous orders, then the complaint is without ground.

-- Eventually, it would probably be helpful to have an online ticketing system for problem reports. That way, they're easier to track and for the PTB to generate statistics. In the meantime, though, although the vendor delay thread creates some overhead, it's a good start -- as long as the problems remain small*.

For what it's worth, I think that the forum provides plenty of positive feedback -- look at all the threads announcing coins in which people gush over the design, or over the coins when they're in hand, or post about how eagerly they're anticipating the start of sales because they really want want want some of these coins. Those types of threads and messages have always indicated to me the relative value placed on a particular designer's designs, and on the store's business practices in general.

The negative threads don't occur very frequently, but when they do, they're very...um...readerpathic. That is, everyone loves to read a good dust-up. Plus, in most of the cases I've seen, the negative thread has only been started when the person posting has actually tried to handle the problem off-line (and failed). So I honestly don't think there's a problem in the forum regarding positive and negative reporting. It's just that the negative threads seem more spectacular because they involve outrage -- and, of course, people are happiest when they're outraged over something. ; )

However, I do agree that Groundspeak could use some guidelines for vendors. After all, they're the ones who provide the vendors with the tracking codes and list them on the "approved vendors" list, thereby tacitly stating that the vendors are trustworthy. It behooves Groundspeak to have a method to objectively determine when that trust has been lost.

*Note: one big problem with the vendor delay thread is that it's here. I imagine that many customers of geocoin vendors are not aware of the Forum, this Sub-Forum, or that thread. So an external trouble-reporting ticketing system might be useful in that regard.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Jackalgirl

2.8k · January 22, 2009

I think that the vendor delays thread was a good start. It ties into what I've been thinking, which is this:

- a vendor should not offer a coin for presale or reservation without having the finished art from the mint in hand. I realize that mints charge money for this art, but it is a small outlay, I think, if you are serious about trying to sell a coin. Plus, if you do reservations and it turns out there's not enough interest, you just shelve it until later; when you're ready, the art is ready to go.

---- the reason why I suggest this is because sometimes getting the mint art just right can take a long time. I'm sure that all potential buyers are totally on board with you wanting the art to be just right; on the other hand, I don't think it's good business practice to ask people to wait months for the back-and-forth to be done.

---- However, I think it would be okay with you taking reservations based on pre-mint art, as long as it's reservations (not pre-sales), and you are completely clear that the art is in a pre-mint stage (and then provide lots of updates).

- having the art on-hand allows the vendor to generate a timeline, even a rough one. The timeline should include:

--- o end of reservation/presale

--- o estimated shipping date (which is the mint's shipping date plus, say, two to four weeks, depending on where the vendor is in the world and how well their postal system process mail from the mint's country). Add "slop" in here to cover postal issues -- it's better to announce that the coins are in early than to say that they've been delayed)

--- o shipping complete

- make sure that every customer receives a notice when his or her coins have been shipped.

- vendors should provide regular updates when those "wicket" days are approaching. Such as "the mint has informed us that due to the complexity of the design, production is taking a bit longer than we expected; the new ship date is xxxxx" and then update your calendar.

- vendors should instantly provide refunds to those who request them.

- vendors should make all reasonable attempts to respond to customers who write them.

This is my short list of vendor guidelines -- that is, actions and practices that would be required by Groundspeak in order for a vendor to remain in good standing with Groundspeak (i.e., to continue to maintain the ability to purchase codes).

The vendor delay thread should then be utilized by people whose vendors are not keeping up with the guidelines -- for example, those whose "wicket" dates have passed and who have not provided updates. If a vendor is consistently violating the guidelines for more than three projects, then that vendor's ability to purchase future tracking codes should be suspended until those three projects are in line with the guildelines and -- if the issue is the missing of deadlines -- the projects are complete, as evidenced by the majority (90%) of the people who posted in the vendor delay thread reporting that they have received their product.

People who post in the vendor delay thread need to understand that it is not only their responsibility to report problems, but also to report those problems' solutions -- that is, don't just post that you didn't get your coins; when you get your coins, it's vital that you report that, too.

This is just what I can think of off the top of my head. I think that Groundspeak having guidelines and expectations for both vendors and customers is a good idea.

(Edited for outline layout)

I won't buy a coin on a presale basis unless they have an actual sample from the mint. I've bought based on art before, and have been disappointed with the final results.

When I have worked with the mints in the past, I have never been charged for the art, but they never do the art until I pay the die fees and the sample fees.

2.2k · January 22, 2009

I won't buy a coin on a presale basis unless they have an actual sample from the mint. I've bought based on art before, and have been disappointed with the final results.

When I have worked with the mints in the past, I have never been charged for the art, but they never do the art until I pay the die fees and the sample fees.

That's a very good point. I understand some businesses might be hesitant over having the dies cut (if their mints separate the art and die fees, that is) because that is an extra fee, but it is (yet another) indication that they're serious about producing the coin.

Do you think that a business should be required (per the guidelines) to have a sample in hand before opening pre-sales, or that the decision to buy (or not buy) based on the type of available art (mint art or sample photo) should be left up to the customer?

I personally think it should be left to the customer, but I also think that businesses should make sure that they specify whether or not samples will be made (or point out that this is mint art and that the final coin may appear differently). Do you agree?

(Edited for clarity)

Edited January 22, 2009 by Jackalgirl

2.8k · January 22, 2009

I won't buy a coin on a presale basis unless they have an actual sample from the mint. I've bought based on art before, and have been disappointed with the final results.

When I have worked with the mints in the past, I have never been charged for the art, but they never do the art until I pay the die fees and the sample fees.

That's a very good point. I understand some businesses might be hesitant over having the dies cut (if their mints separate the art and die fees, that is) because that is an extra fee, but it is (yet another) indication that they're serious about producing the coin.

Do you think that a business should be required (per the guidelines) to have a sample in hand before opening pre-sales, or that the decision to buy (or not buy) based on the type of available art (mint art or sample photo) should be left up to the customer?

I personally think it should be left to the customer, but I also think that businesses should make sure that they specify whether or not samples will be made (or point out that this is mint art and that the final coin may appear differently). Do you agree?

(Edited for clarity)

I agree. I've often said that we don't need to make rules for the vendors, we need to buy smarter.

I will only buy a coin on pre-sale if:

1. They have actual samples.

2. They give an expected due date.

3. They have a good reputation in the community.

2.2k · January 22, 2009

I agree. I've often said that we don't need to make rules for the vendors, we need to buy smarter.

I will only buy a coin on pre-sale if:

1. They have actual samples.

2. They give an expected due date.

3. They have a good reputation in the community.

I agree in principle, but I still think there's value in Groundspeak having guidelines for vendors. Not all people getting into the vending thing may understand good business practice, and (as I said) it behooves Groundspeak to protect its reputation by making their expectations clear to those vendors with whom it partners -- because that's what they're doing, in essence: they're partnering with the company for the production of geocoins, in that they're the ones providing the codes and approving the designs.

Also, not all customers are part of the Geocoin Forums community. This community is an awesome tool for people who are interested in geocoins, but those people who have not gotten in here and come to learn about the process of making geocoins, what is and isn't possible at a mint, what the different kinds of platings are, and all those ins-and-outs that we take for granted -- well, they don't know what they should expect from a geocoin company. Short of forcing everyone who wants to buy a geocoin to come in here and educate themselves, I think that Groundspeak having an understanding about what constitutes good geocoin business practices is a very good idea.

3.5k · January 22, 2009

As lofty as your expectations may be, I highly doubt a committee would accomplish anything for the collective of the geocoin community, but more so for the committee itself. If this is doomed to be, it should be sanctioned by Groundspeak, and I think the committee should be chosen by the community rather than by ones too eager to serve and assert power. There are enough elitist members as it is. Disregarding the rules Groundspeak has set forth is inherently a bad idea IMO. The rules that apply to one should apply to all. This is not a new issue.

Geez dude, I was just offering to help out. Who put you on that high horse anyway?

January 22, 2009

<snip> having the art on-hand allows the vendor to generate a timeline, even a rough one. The timeline should include:
--- o end of reservation/presale

--- o estimated shipping date (which is the mint's shipping date plus, say, two to four weeks, depending on where the vendor is in the world and how well their postal system process mail from the mint's country). Add "slop" in here to cover postal issues -- it's better to announce that the coins are in early than to say that they've been delayed)

--- o shipping complete <snip>

This could go a long way toward resolving the communication issues. If there were a pinned thread that each vendor had to post some specific information in prior to offering a coin for sale in the forums, along with at least one means of contacting the vendor in case a question arose it would help buyers to make a more informed descision.

An example-

Vendor Name and email contact

Pre-sale starts

Pre-sale ending

Coin expected

then an update when the coins have all shipped

Nothing could be posted in this thread other than these updates, if something changes then the original post is edited to reflect the new info. There would be no issues with opinions or grudges because the only thing that would be posted is the dates. Buyers could easily see how quickly a vendor ships and how many coin editions are outstanding at one time.

The idea needs refinement, but it may be a good compromise that is beneficial without adding too many rules.

4.9k · January 22, 2009

I agree. I've often said that we don't need to make rules for the vendors, we need to buy smarter.

I will only buy a coin on pre-sale if:

1. They have actual samples.

2. They give an expected due date.

3. They have a good reputation in the community.

I agree in principle, but I still think there's value in Groundspeak having guidelines for vendors. Not all people getting into the vending thing may understand good business practice, and (as I said) it behooves Groundspeak to protect its reputation by making their expectations clear to those vendors with whom it partners -- because that's what they're doing, in essence: they're partnering with the company for the production of geocoins, in that they're the ones providing the codes and approving the designs.

Also, not all customers are part of the Geocoin Forums community. This community is an awesome tool for people who are interested in geocoins, but those people who have not gotten in here and come to learn about the process of making geocoins, what is and isn't possible at a mint, what the different kinds of platings are, and all those ins-and-outs that we take for granted -- well, they don't know what they should expect from a geocoin company. Short of forcing everyone who wants to buy a geocoin to come in here and educate themselves, I think that Groundspeak having an understanding about what constitutes good geocoin business practices is a very good idea.

Sorry, I don't agree with the partnership arguement. I buy a product from GS (tracking numbers) and that's where it ends. I don't partner with them. It's a private business GS, they have the right to approve what is sold on here and what is not (whether I agree or not), it's not a partnership. I'm just agreeing to the terms of their business in order to sell my product on their site otherwise I can make geocoins but they would be nontrackable and a design of my choosing wihtout worrying about approval.

I don't want Groundspeak monitoring or giving me direction on how I run my company as I am self-monitoring. However, should a company sell geocoins on these threads and not deliver them, than I do think that GS should halt the sales of tracking numbers to said company. It's that simple, you screw up once...your privledges are pulled from buying tracking numbers until you've delivered your products to customers and you may not advertise in these threads. It really shouldn't be much harder than that.

Everyone here may have different ideas as to what constitutes good business practices. In the end getting the products one pays for is what is important. Everything else is cake and treating your customers like they matter and listening to what they have to say makes for growing your business. No business needs to have their hand held by GS for that nor do I think they want anything to do with it.

tsun

4.9k · January 22, 2009

<snip> having the art on-hand allows the vendor to generate a timeline, even a rough one. The timeline should include:
--- o end of reservation/presale

--- o estimated shipping date (which is the mint's shipping date plus, say, two to four weeks, depending on where the vendor is in the world and how well their postal system process mail from the mint's country). Add "slop" in here to cover postal issues -- it's better to announce that the coins are in early than to say that they've been delayed)

--- o shipping complete <snip>

This could go a long way toward resolving the communication issues. If there were a pinned thread that each vendor had to post some specific information in prior to offering a coin for sale in the forums, along with at least one means of contacting the vendor in case a question arose it would help buyers to make a more informed descision.

An example-

Vendor Name and email contact

Pre-sale starts

Pre-sale ending

Coin expected

then an update when the coins have all shipped

Nothing could be posted in this thread other than these updates, if something changes then the original post is edited to reflect the new info. There would be no issues with opinions or grudges because the only thing that would be posted is the dates. Buyers could easily see how quickly a vendor ships and how many coin editions are outstanding at one time.

The idea needs refinement, but it may be a good compromise that is beneficial without adding too many rules.

A number of companies already do this but I fall back to the old arguement of presales are at issue here. This has always been a presale issue. (I'm just saying, nothing personal here by me stating my thoughts ). Companies that just mint coins and sell them don't have these issues. You make coins, offer them for sale, no problems (for the most part). Do presales and that's when the problems start (for larger companies-bigger vendors-this doesn't seem to be an issue). It's the small timers/mom and pop shops where problems start emerging. Vendor ABC can write each requirement posted in their thread and in the end still not mint the coins. So all you really get is an empty promise in the end with a thread telling you 'you're hosed'.

It would seem to me that this is wrapping a package and putting a bow on it but in the end, if you don't get your coins, it's still an empty package now isn't it?

Personally I'd like to see presales not be allowed BUT I would never ask that it happen because the majority of vendors have proved themselves and they shouldn't pay for the bad apples. Like I mentioned before, you don't deliver a product, no purchase of tracking numbers or advertising here. Maybe a better option would be to limit the number of presales a vendor could do at a time, earn your way up. You do 3 presales successfully, you can do 2 presales at a time. There could even be a limit of allowable at a time but I'm not even sure I'[m on board with my own suggestion (although I don't do presales-so it doesn't affect me). Vendors who are already established could be grandfathered in so no worries as long as your record is stellar.

Those are more thoughts, lol.

tsun

3.1k · January 22, 2009

Sorry, I don't agree with the partnership arguement. I buy a product from GS (tracking numbers) and that's where it ends. I don't partner with them. It's a private business GS, they have the right to approve what is sold on here and what is not (whether I agree or not), it's not a partnership. I'm just agreeing to the terms of their business in order to sell my product on their site otherwise I can make geocoins but they would be nontrackable and a design of my choosing wihtout worrying about approval.

I don't want Groundspeak monitoring or giving me direction on how I run my company as I am self-monitoring. However, should a company sell geocoins on these threads and not deliver them, than I do think that GS should halt the sales of tracking numbers to said company. It's that simple, you screw up once...your privledges are pulled from buying tracking numbers until you've delivered your products to customers and you may not advertise in these threads. It really shouldn't be much harder than that.

Everyone here may have different ideas as to what constitutes good business practices. In the end getting the products one pays for is what is important. Everything else is cake and treating your customers like they matter and listening to what they have to say makes for growing your business. No business needs to have their hand held by GS for that nor do I think they want anything to do with it.

tsun

tsun, I think I might be on the same page. As far as "responsible, ethical" vendors go, the process with GS involves buying codes and paying for associated fees. From there, it really is up to the coin maker to take care of the rest. Then, once the vendor announces a coin on the forum that is the point where the vendor is responsible to the buyers, and Groundspeak again, as they are posting on the forum.

GS should not be involved in the coin making process, IMO, and it appears that they are not anyway.

Where there seems to be something missing is the accountability part. If something is set up where a coin maker/vendor is expected to reach a certain level of production before asking for our hard earned money, that would make sense. GS would be able to protect their users, and have every right to ask for makers/vendors to be at a sale-able point before putting the forum users at risk. It seems (as an outsider to coin production) like a reasonable request to have those posting sales have updated TPTB on the production hoops that have been jumped through, and then post coins for sale. If a vendor doesn't want to jump through the GS community's hoops, they are more than welcome to continue to advertise elsewhere and maintain their own websites or forums.

Tsun, (not to toot your horn louder than anyone else's) your site is great, and your communication has been good. It's a 1-2 punch of success. Now, as for others who have not done such things, GS should be prepared to protect their good name and investment in the Game and tracking rights by sanctioning those who "disgrace the family". (Had to get a bit Godfather on that one, sorry)

Is this making sense? I hope so...

Time for reform and updates?

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