Problem with my Local Forum

[+4 Paws And Then Some]

Hi

I am seeking the opinion of the readers. Please don't get into any heated discussions; I just want your opinions. If everyone thinks I'm wrong, I'll leave it alone.

 

I created a local cachers geocaching forum on a free forum site. This means that there is a banner on the top of the page which is controlled by Google-Ads, much like these forums have on the top right of the window. I recently decided that to attract more readers to my forum I would post the link directly to the forum at the bottom of my new cache submission.

 

My cache reviewer told me I had to omit the direct link because my forum page contained advertising. I can fully understand this if I had selected the links myself and placed them on my page, but nearly every website out there has ads, especially Google-Ads. According to the following excerpt's wording, a link to my forum is not an ad on my "cache description" or, as far as I can see, in violation.

 

This is the "commercial caches" quote off of Groundspeak:

"Commercial caches will not be published on geocaching.com without prior approval from Groundspeak. A commercial cache is a geocache listing or geocache which is perceived by Groundspeak, Groundspeak's employees, or the Volunteer Geocache Reviewers as having been submitted to geocaching.com with the principal or substantial intent of soliciting customers or generating commercial gain. The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion.

Additionally, links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political or social agendas, or the inclusion of their associated logos are not permitted on cache descriptions without prior permission from Groundspeak."

 

I have seen several caches including event caches that mentioned or posted links to businesses (personally if they gave a donation to the event I don't see a problem with it, but I do see how it violates the guidelines). I have also seen church themed caches that went beyond and contained religious paraphernalia in them. Also, I am familiar with Wal-Mart themed caches that are allowed as long as the name Wal-Mart isn't used in the title. These are some examples that I've seen. I'm not saying this makes my argument okay, I'm just throwing it out there.

 

What does everyone here think? If people agree with me I will email Groundspeak to ask for permission to be allowed to post my link.

[+KoosKoos]

I can't see how linking to a geocaching forum (even if it might have ads) is such a problem. Definitely ask permission if that's what your reviewer is requiring. For the "commercial" content, they usually push it up to Groundspeak to decide if something is over the line or not.

 

Guess I need to edit out all of the links to our local Yahoo group on my caches. A pity because it's a great way to promote the local group so people can find us.

[+fox-and-the-hound]

Hi

I am seeking the opinion of the readers. Please don't get into any heated discussions; I just want your opinions. If everyone thinks I'm wrong, I'll leave it alone.

 

I created a local cachers geocaching forum on a free forum site. This means that there is a banner on the top of the page which is controlled by Google-Ads, much like these forums have on the top right of the window. I recently decided that to attract more readers to my forum I would post the link directly to the forum at the bottom of my new cache submission.

 

My cache reviewer told me I had to omit the direct link because my forum page contained advertising. I can fully understand this if I had selected the links myself and placed them on my page, but nearly every website out there has ads, especially Google-Ads. According to the following excerpt's wording, a link to my forum is not an ad on my "cache description" or, as far as I can see, in violation.

 

This is the "commercial caches" quote off of Groundspeak:

"Commercial caches will not be published on geocaching.com without prior approval from Groundspeak. A commercial cache is a geocache listing or geocache which is perceived by Groundspeak, Groundspeak's employees, or the Volunteer Geocache Reviewers as having been submitted to geocaching.com with the principal or substantial intent of soliciting customers or generating commercial gain. The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion.

Additionally, links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political or social agendas, or the inclusion of their associated logos are not permitted on cache descriptions without prior permission from Groundspeak."

 

I have seen several caches including event caches that mentioned or posted links to businesses (personally if they gave a donation to the event I don't see a problem with it, but I do see how it violates the guidelines). I have also seen church themed caches that went beyond and contained religious paraphernalia in them. Also, I am familiar with Wal-Mart themed caches that are allowed as long as the name Wal-Mart isn't used in the title. These are some examples that I've seen. I'm not saying this makes my argument okay, I'm just throwing it out there.

 

What does everyone here think? If people agree with me I will email Groundspeak to ask for permission to be allowed to post my link.

 

The link is to your geocaching forum or the forum host? Does visiting your site require signup? I've seen many cache listings with links to local forum sites so I'm confused how yours would get singled out.

[+Night Stalker]

This is nothing new and has been discussed in the past. There is a way to get around this, but it involves linking to something that then links to your site. Groundspeak has been cracking down on anythings that looks like it is commercial in the past year or so, so don't feel like the lone ranger here.

[+sbell111]

Hi

I am seeking the opinion of the readers. Please don't get into any heated discussions; I just want your opinions.

Good luck with that.

If everyone thinks I'm wrong, I'll leave it alone....

Based on my understanding as to how the guidelines are currently enforced, you are wrong. Well, perhaps 'wrong' isn't the best way to put it, but your cache was in violation.

[+mtn-man]

FYI... I moved this post over from the duplicate topic and deleted the duplicate. This post is now post #2 in this topic.

I can't see how linking to a geocaching forum (even if it might have ads) is such a problem. Definitely ask permission if that's what your reviewer is requiring. For the "commercial" content, they usually push it up to Groundspeak to decide if something is over the line or not.

 

Guess I need to edit out all of the links to our local Yahoo group on my caches. A pity because it's a great way to promote the local group so people can find us.

[+Renegade Knight]

...What does everyone here think? ...

 

Your intent doesn't seem to be commercial. If true they are not basing their decision on your intent. Instead they are enforcing what seems to be an increasingly strict intrepretation of commercial and soliciting. I've had reports that non commercial sites with a pay pal donation link to help pay the bills (ie where you would be if you didn't use an add supported free site) have been asked to remove the link.

 

Thus far this hasn't been an issue with my logal org. When it is, and at some point it will be, I probably won't change my listing, but will instead list somehwere that doesn't argue the point.

[GOF and Bacall]

Well huh. I didn't realize that those Google adds were there. I think it is a matter of having trained myself to ignore the ever present banners on the internet.

 

I think you should email Groundspeak to get an official ruling on the situation. These adds are not a direct form of commercial attack on our wallets. What they are is the way that average Joe gets to run these kind of things without hocking the house. It isn't like you are saying that people need to click on an add to log your cache or even saying "As long as you are here look at the neat stuff I sell". Seems more like "Oh, that stuff in the corner? That is some crap that belongs to the landlord. "

 

Good luck.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Hi

I am seeking the opinion of the readers. Please don't get into any heated discussions; I just want your opinions. If everyone thinks I'm wrong, I'll leave it alone.

 

I created a local cachers geocaching forum on a free forum site. This means that there is a banner on the top of the page which is controlled by Google-Ads, much like these forums have on the top right of the window. I recently decided that to attract more readers to my forum I would post the link directly to the forum at the bottom of my new cache submission.

 

My cache reviewer told me I had to omit the direct link because my forum page contained advertising. I can fully understand this if I had selected the links myself and placed them on my page, but nearly every website out there has ads, especially Google-Ads. According to the following excerpt's wording, a link to my forum is not an ad on my "cache description" or, as far as I can see, in violation.

 

This is the "commercial caches" quote off of Groundspeak:

"Commercial caches will not be published on geocaching.com without prior approval from Groundspeak. A commercial cache is a geocache listing or geocache which is perceived by Groundspeak, Groundspeak's employees, or the Volunteer Geocache Reviewers as having been submitted to geocaching.com with the principal or substantial intent of soliciting customers or generating commercial gain. The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion.

Additionally, links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political or social agendas, or the inclusion of their associated logos are not permitted on cache descriptions without prior permission from Groundspeak."

 

I have seen several caches including event caches that mentioned or posted links to businesses (personally if they gave a donation to the event I don't see a problem with it, but I do see how it violates the guidelines). I have also seen church themed caches that went beyond and contained religious paraphernalia in them. Also, I am familiar with Wal-Mart themed caches that are allowed as long as the name Wal-Mart isn't used in the title. These are some examples that I've seen. I'm not saying this makes my argument okay, I'm just throwing it out there.

 

What does everyone here think? If people agree with me I will email Groundspeak to ask for permission to be allowed to post my link.

Well, a brief reality check, as follows:

• It is hardly true that most sites on the Internet, as you claim, bear some form of similar advertising to that under discussion.
  
• when I review the homepage websites and the forum sites for each and every one of the local (Maryland, Pennsylvania and Virginia) geocaching groups, and when I review the group pages and forum sites for each of the local geocaching groups in areas (Colorado, Utah, LA area, Arizona, Wisconsin, Indiana, New York, New Jersey, etc.) which I have visited over the past few years, not a single one of them sported ANY kind of such advertising, and rather, all were hosted on hosting sites which were free of such clutter.
  
• good website hosting and forum hosting is often available at very low cost, perhaps a few dollars per month, and these services are entirely ad-free and also almost always offer far better service, uptime, reliability and security than do the so-called "free" hosting services, which, in reality, saddle your "free" page with ads.
  
• from my perspective, the Groundspeak requirement is a very minor and trivial one, and one with which it is extremely easy to comply. In fact, as we have seen above, I have never encountered a local geo group which had any such ads on its main site or on its forum pages.
  

That is about it!

[Motorcycle_Mama]

To the OP, sorry, but I agree with your Reviewer. Based upon the policy, it's a commercial link.

Edited August 27, 2008 by Motorcycle_Mama

[+tozainamboku]

I can hardly think of a local geocaching org that isn't either hosted on a free (ad supported) hosting site or that uses ads or to defray the cost for hosting on a pay site. Once a local site is established and the reviewers are aware of it, I suspect that most reviewers wouldn't hold up approval of cache page for linking to a local geocaching site. However, the commercial guidelines still state

Additionally, links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political or social agendas, or the inclusion of their associated logos are not permitted on cache descriptions without prior permission from Groundspeak.

A reviewer not familiar with a site may not wish to make the judgment as whether this is a link to a non-profit geocaching organization that happens to use a free hosting site or use ads to defray the cost of hosting, or some clever viral advertiser that disguises his commercial page as a geocaching organization in order to sell items to geocachers. The commercial guidelines and the clarifications given by Groundspeak, give the reviewers the latitude to approve links to sites like yours but also allow the reviewers to punt if they are not sure. The best thing to do now is to ask permission from contact@Groundspeak.com. Tell them a little about your local organization so they can tell this is not a commercial link.

Edited August 27, 2008 by tozainamboku

[+4 Paws And Then Some]

fox-and-the-hound: To browse the forum no sign up is required. One is needed to post, but I could change that. The reason I did it that way was that I didn't want 100 posts by "Guest".

 

This is the link to my Invisionfree Forum, where you can see the Google-Ads at the top: http://z4.invisionfree.com/GP_Geocaching/index.php

Currently there is hardly any activity and I live in a city of 50'000 but the geocaching community isn't very...close. I wanted to bring everyone together so we could have more of a community like others have.

 

Night Stalker: Thank you for that tip. So if I use a blank title page first it might be okay?

 

At first I had my link pointing to an Information page that contained some logos to sites that had geocaching software or FAQ or How To guides and some stores, but only because the stores were relevant for our local cachers. I had no advertising intent, but as I had displayed logos, I removed that page, yet I was still not allowed to show the link.

 

According to MY interpretation of the Guidelines, I haven't violated anything. I think I will ask for permission, thanks Kooskoos.

[+4 Paws And Then Some]

Motorcycle_Mama:

If what you say is what Groundspeak means, then I suggest to them that they re-word their Guideline to say "no linking" or something, because I still think that my precise predicament isn't exactly mentioned. So long as (I think) I see loopholes, I will encounter these problems.

 

Vinny & Sue Team:

Thank you for your input. Also, I've gathered a few ideas for improvements from browsing those sites.

 

Now, I should have said "nearly every FREE website out there has ads" (such as Facebook and Hotmail - very popular sites). Paid sites of course would omit any ads unless they had intent to advertise. But should I need to shell out my own cash to create a website for a local, non profit group, that hasn't even gotten off the ground yet? Furthermore, I don't know how to create a forum so I needed to use someone else's.

 

I looked at a few of those American geocaching organizations, and some of them even have links like .org, like Michigan's. Theirs has "Powered by ClubExpress" at the bottom of their page. Also, athough these are small, so does New Jersey: "Joomla! is Free Software released under the GNU/GPL License." The colorado page advertises for their own store on CafePress, as do a few others. And if they're big enough to have their own store, they obviously can afford to buy webspace. The Arizona page has a link to donate via PayPal, as does New Mexico's forum. The washington geocaching site asks for a $12 membership to pay for their site and expenses. The Kansas page has numerous links to businesses, such as "fatcatweddings.com". Central Illinois has a Classified Ads box currently advertising a Magellan GPS. The regualar Illinois page ( http://www.illinoisgeocaching.com/ ) has Ads by Google on the right, as does Geocaching South Dakota ( http://www.geosd.com/ ). North Louisiana geocaching has a link to the Geocacher University page - a store. This geocaching site has Ads by Google: http://beaverbeliever.net/, which comes off the Oregon geocaching page. On Lone Star Geocaching, the provider (lunar pages) has an ad. British Columbia's site (www.bcgeocaching.com) advertises for their sponsors. Manitoba's site advertises a BC store as well as having Ads by Google. An Alberta site ( http://www.geocachingalberta.com/ ) uses Ads by Google too.

 

Check out the links I included above and you will see other geocaching sites in both the USA and Canada that feature advertising.

Edited August 28, 2008 by 4 Paws And Then Some

[+hycam]

This is the "commercial caches" quote off of Groundspeak:

"Commercial caches will not be published on geocaching.com without prior approval from Groundspeak. A commercial cache is a geocache listing or geocache which is perceived by Groundspeak, Groundspeak's employees, or the Volunteer Geocache Reviewers as having been submitted to geocaching.com with the principal or substantial intent of soliciting customers or generating commercial gain. The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion.

Additionally, links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political or social agendas, or the inclusion of their associated logos are not permitted on cache descriptions without prior permission from Groundspeak."

For me, I think the meat of the policy is contained in the words I bolded in the quotation. From your explanation, I don't think there is principal or even substantial intent of soliciting. To enforce a no ads policy as you describe it does not serve any useful purpose. IT seems fairly arbitrary.

 

Also, as you point out, Groundspeak itself includes google ads in its own forum - very much the pot calling the kettle black. Further, in most forums I have participated in, once I pay for a membership, the ads disappear. Doesn't seem to be the case with Groundspeak. Nope, I'm having a really hard time agreeing with them on this one.

[+Prime Suspect]

Hi

I am seeking the opinion of the readers. Please don't get into any heated discussions; I just want your opinions. If everyone thinks I'm wrong, I'll leave it alone.

 

[...]

 

What does everyone here think? If people agree with me I will email Groundspeak to ask for permission to be allowed to post my link.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that business decisions at Groundspeak are made by forum votes. Groundspeak is a business, and part of that business is selling (mostly unobtrusive) ads on the site. What does it say to a potential ad customer if the site contains pages that link to their competitor? Links that the competitor isn't even paying for?

[+Star*Hopper]

Then Groundspeak needs to alter the wording of their policy, and say what's REALLY on their minds!

 

I have to interpret the cited policy as being based on "for commercial gain" (and that's 100% understandable) and it applying to the user. His purpose is not for commercial gain, but rather to inform of the existence of his forum. Now, if he were getting a stipend from the forum's advertisers, it would be an entirely different matter - and a 'TOS' violation - but he's not.

 

Presuming of course that's the whole story, as he presented it. OP, I agree with you on this one. That seems to be a bit far-fetched for reason to deny.

 

~*

[+4 Paws And Then Some]

Also, as you point out, Groundspeak itself includes google ads in its own forum - very much the pot calling the kettle black. Further, in most forums I have participated in, once I pay for a membership, the ads disappear. Doesn't seem to be the case with Groundspeak. Nope, I'm having a really hard time agreeing with them on this one.

 

You know, I hadn't even thought of that. Payment does usually mean the disappearance of ads.

 

Hi

I am seeking the opinion of the readers. Please don't get into any heated discussions; I just want your opinions. If everyone thinks I'm wrong, I'll leave it alone.

 

[...]

 

What does everyone here think? If people agree with me I will email Groundspeak to ask for permission to be allowed to post my link.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that business decisions at Groundspeak are made by forum votes. Groundspeak is a business, and part of that business is selling (mostly unobtrusive) ads on the site. What does it say to a potential ad customer if the site contains pages that link to their competitor? Links that the competitor isn't even paying for?

 

About my words that you highlighted, I wanted to be very careful in my wording to avoid aggression from my post. I often don't participate in large forums because there are many people who simply tell each other off without giving any useful advice. So far I have been happy with every single response given here. Thank you!

 

As for asking for opinions, if no one else thought similar to me, I wouldn't expect that Groundspeak would even consider my question. But seeing as some people do see what is bothering me, then I have more confidence in presenting my question to Groundspeak. They do in fact state that we can ask things of them. I'm not asking for votes. And I can't really see who would be a competitor to Groundspeak. The bottom line that I have a hard time understanding is why, if Groundspeak uses Google Ads, am I not allowed to link to a geocaching page also having Google Ads. Wouldn't the ads be very similar anyways?

[+briansnat]

The bottom line that I have a hard time understanding is why, if Groundspeak uses Google Ads, am I not allowed to link to a geocaching page also having Google Ads. Wouldn't the ads be very similar anyways?

 

The bottom line is that Groundspeak is paid money for the Google ads on their site. They are not paid for the ads on the site you are linking to, so why should they be required to promote it through links to it.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

This is the "commercial caches" quote off of Groundspeak:

"Commercial caches will not be published on geocaching.com without prior approval from Groundspeak. A commercial cache is a geocache listing or geocache which is perceived by Groundspeak, Groundspeak's employees, or the Volunteer Geocache Reviewers as having been submitted to geocaching.com with the principal or substantial intent of soliciting customers or generating commercial gain. The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion.

This part of the commercial guidelines keeps getting highlighted, however, it's the part below that I believe is the issue.

 

Additionally, links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political or social agendas, or the inclusion of their associated logos are not permitted on cache descriptions without prior permission from Groundspeak.

 

Based upon previous discussions, it's the links to a page that has commercial ads on it that is the issue. If you post a link on the cache page to an personal page that doesn't have commercial links on it and then post a link on THAT page to your forum page, I believe you will fall within the guidelines.

 

And as others have stated, the fact that Groundspeak chooses to have ads on their websites does not bear into the argument whatsoever.

[+Star*Hopper]

...it's the part below that I believe is the issue.

Additionally, links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political or social agendas, or the inclusion of their associated logos are not permitted on cache descriptions without prior permission from Groundspeak.

 

Based upon previous discussions, it's the links to a page that has commercial ads on it that is the issue. ..."

 

And there you have it -- "...links to businesses, ... or the inclusion of their ... logos are not permitted on cache descriptions ..."

His cache description does not include a link to a business, but to his forum.

His cache description does not include their logo - only a link to his forum.

Read the English!

 

THESE are NOT on his cache description.....only a link to his FORUM. The fact that the ad content is 1 page removed, is all the buffer that Groundspeak demands, or expects, and that is what their policy states.

 

I don't mean to sound aggressive....but it's right there in black & white. If a reviewer has gone beyond that point, then he has overstepped the bounds Groundspeak set. Again, read the English.

 

And again, the spirit & intent of Groundspeak's policy is to prevent users from making commercial gain thru their cache page(s). It should be obvious to everyone he is & will not, thereby. There is no connection! I believe the OP/CO has a legitimate complaint.

 

Let me put it like this. If the reviewer's ruling holds, in light of their stated verbatim policy then it is a clearcut case of Groundspeak saying one thing, and doing another. I'm sure (fairly sure) that's not their intent. That's what I meant when I inferred earlier that if that (the reviewer's interpretation) is their intent, then they need to reword the policy.

 

Peace, out.

~*

[+carleenp]

Write to contact@geocaching.com and politely ask that you be allowed to have your forum link in a non-intrusive location on your cache pages. If the revenue from the ads goes solely to support the forums (it does doesn't it?), mention that as well. They might tell you it is OK. Then again, they might not, but then you will have a definitve answer.

 

I would also suggest maybe just removing the ads, and if things become too expensive, see if your forum members would be willing donate a few bucks to help pay for the site. Generally though, unless the forums become rather large, it should be quite inexpensive to run them.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

...it's the part below that I believe is the issue.

Additionally, links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political or social agendas, or the inclusion of their associated logos are not permitted on cache descriptions without prior permission from Groundspeak.

 

Based upon previous discussions, it's the links to a page that has commercial ads on it that is the issue. ..."

 

And there you have it -- "...links to businesses, ... or the inclusion of their ... logos are not permitted on cache descriptions ..."

His cache description does not include a link to a business, but to his forum.

His cache description does not include their logo - only a link to his forum.

Read the English!

 

THESE are NOT on his cache description.....only a link to his FORUM. The fact that the ad content is 1 page removed, is all the buffer that Groundspeak demands, or expects, and that is what their policy states.

 

I don't mean to sound aggressive....but it's right there in black & white. If a reviewer has gone beyond that point, then he has overstepped the bounds Groundspeak set. Again, read the English.

 

And again, the spirit & intent of Groundspeak's policy is to prevent users from making commercial gain thru their cache page(s). It should be obvious to everyone he is & will not, thereby. There is no connection! I believe the OP/CO has a legitimate complaint.

 

Let me put it like this. If the reviewer's ruling holds, in light of their stated verbatim policy then it is a clearcut case of Groundspeak saying one thing, and doing another. I'm sure (fairly sure) that's not their intent. That's what I meant when I inferred earlier that if that (the reviewer's interpretation) is their intent, then they need to reword the policy.

 

Peace, out.

~*

 

I believe that the previous discussions on the subject indicate that you are wrong. And I can, in fact, read English.

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=190245

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=191062

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=191208

Edited August 28, 2008 by Motorcycle_Mama

[+fox-and-the-hound]

fox-and-the-hound: To browse the forum no sign up is required. One is needed to post, but I could change that. The reason I did it that way was that I didn't want 100 posts by "Guest".

 

This is the link to my Invisionfree Forum, where you can see the Google-Ads at the top: http://z4.invisionfree.com/GP_Geocaching/index.php

Currently there is hardly any activity and I live in a city of 50'000 but the geocaching community isn't very...close. I wanted to bring everyone together so we could have more of a community like others have.

 

I understand what you're saying, but my first impression when I looked at your page is that it looked like a clear rival to these forums and without any identity as to being a local cachers organization. So it appears that you're using a Groundspeak paid for cache listing to send traffic to a site where you get paid by advertisers. Doesn't look so good. You might try again by first contacting and organizing some key members of your local cachers and starting a local group. It wouldn't hurt to even ask Groundspeak for some advice on how best to accomplish this. Raise a few communal dollars and pay for your site from group funds. Then you won't need google ads or any ads for that matter. Also make a point to put links back to Groundspeak since you're diverting traffic away from them right at the start. There are a lot of local groups that would likely volunteer plenty of advice on how to go about it.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

There are plenty of ways to find hosting and forum software free or cheap.

 

With 800 or so members the last time I checked, lots of forum traffic and a huge hit rate we've run our local forum http://DixieCachers.com for free, and ad-free, for years, and ran alacache.com (with 1200+ members and huge traffic) for free before that.

 

I run a free geocaching e-zine that gets decent traffic, http://onlinegeocacher.com.... it costs me nothing, therefore I don't need revenue.

 

I run a free amateur radio forum, http://W4AGA.com/forums ... again, it costs me nothing, so no need for ads.

 

Why would a discussion group need advertising and where would the money go?

 

You are welcome to contact me if you want to learn how this issue can be avoided by running your site for free.

Edited August 28, 2008 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+Renegade Knight]

Point of clarification. It's the internet. It's got ads. That's how it works folks. They can't be avoided. Some ISP's even insert ads in other peoples pages.

 

TINSSAAFL. You get ads to pay for your site, or you pay for your site directly. Etiher way someone is footing the bill and business is involved. Hell most sites that dont' have ads are hosted on sites who make a businss of hosting sites.

 

A strict intrepretation means no links to anything at all on a cache page. As it happens that's pretty much where things are headed. The rules are not getting more flexible.

 

Just when I post this TAR shows option 3. Someone else foots the bill.

Edited August 28, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[Mr.Yuck]

Point of clarification. It's the internet. It's got ads. That's how it works folks. They can't be avoided. Some ISP's even insert ads in other peoples pages.

 

A strict intrepretation means no links to anything at all on a cache page. As it happens that's pretty much where things are headed. The rules are not getting more flexible.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this was just a reviewer decision, and no one has heard from TPTB? I'm of the opinion this case is an overzealous interpretation of the rules by the reviewer, and Groundspeak would allow, if contacted through proper channels, a link to a geocaching forum (or organization website) that has ads. It's the internet, it's got ads. I've heard that somewhere before.

[+sbell111]

I'm of the opinion that this has all been discussed previously and TPTB have given their position. Therefore, there is no need for anyone in actual authority to come to this thread to say it all again. This is especially true since the OP apparently hasn't contacted Groundspeak to request permission for the link, in accordance with the guidelines.

Edited August 28, 2008 by sbell111

[+tozainamboku]

 

I believe that the previous discussions on the subject indicate that you are wrong. And I can, in fact, read English.

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=190245

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=191062

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=191208

 

You forgot this one:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=193115

 

All those other discussions are essentially past history. Not only were the guidelines updated based on those discussions but Miss Jenn of Groundspeak provided clarification. The new guideline prohibits links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political or social agendas, or the inclusion of their associated logos on cache descriptions without prior permission from Groundspeak. It does not prohibit linking to a website that might have a discrete amount of advertising on its pages. Of course there are some free hosting sites that use pop-up ads or where three quarters of the page is ads. The guideline allow the reviewers to determine if a site is primarily an advertising site and not a non-profit geocaching site. The reviewer may also think that a site is primarily a stealth ad - with a little geocaching information to make it look like a non-commercial site. A new local forum or blog that doesn't have very much content yet may be difficult to distinguish from a stealth ad. The reviewer is within the guidelines to reject the cache page if it has the link. The OP can still write Groundspeak to appeal and if they can show this is a local non-commercial geocaching organization I would guess that there is a good chance it would get approved. The OP could also put the link on their profile and on the cache page put "see my profile for more information and a link to my local forum"

[Mr.Yuck]

I'm of the opinion that this has all been discussed previously and TPTB have given their position. Therefore, there is no need for anyone in actual authority to come to this thread to say it all again. This is especially true since the OP apparently hasn't contacted Groundspeak to request permission for the link, in accordance with the guidelines.

 

I'm of the opinion you're being a smart aleck by saying I'm of the opinion after I said I'm of the opinion. I really don't believe though, this particular subject matter has come up before, and Toz seems to think so also in the post above mine. Just within my general region I'm aware of three geocaching organizations who have their home on Yahoo Groups who have hundreds of cache page links to them combined. Heck, the one organization probably has hundreds of cache page links alone. Yahoo (a website with advertising on it) is no different from what we're talking about here. I really believe the OP should contact TPTB through the proper channels. And no, I don't think TPTB will answer in this thread, even if they're looking at it.

[+DanOCan]

I agree with Groundspeak's position against commercial solicitation. That being said, I think the OP is right and the interpretation seems a little odd.

 

This is what it seems to boil down to:

 

Cache Description links to Commercial = Bad

 

Cache Description links to Forums which links to Commercial = Bad

 

Cache Description links to a Link page which links to Forums which links to Commercial = OK

 

I feel like I'm playing The Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon. Apparently as long as you have three or more degrees of separation between your link and the commercial content you are OK.

 

Oh well, I already know nothing I say will change the mind of the people who make the decisions.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Cache Description links to a Link page which links to Forums which links to Commercial = OK

 

I feel like I'm playing The Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon. Apparently as long as you have three or more degrees of separation between your link and the commercial content you are OK....

 

Good one. I supposed you can't use the ad supported free homepages either as your link page...

[+Renegade Knight]

Point of clarification. It's the internet. It's got ads. That's how it works folks. They can't be avoided. Some ISP's even insert ads in other peoples pages.

 

A strict intrepretation means no links to anything at all on a cache page. As it happens that's pretty much where things are headed. The rules are not getting more flexible.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this was just a reviewer decision, and no one has heard from TPTB? I'm of the opinion this case is an overzealous interpretation of the rules by the reviewer, and Groundspeak would allow, if contacted through proper channels, a link to a geocaching forum (or organization website) that has ads. It's the internet, it's got ads. I've heard that somewhere before.

 

The reviewer seems to be following the trend. I'm not sure TPTB would reverse the decision. The box that a cache has to fit in to be listed is getting smaller and smaller.

[+WebChimp]

I can hardly think of a local geocaching org that isn't either hosted on a free (ad supported) hosting site or that uses ads or to defray the cost for hosting on a pay site.

 

There's at least one, probably more.

 

www.MSGA.Net has no ads, doesn't use a free hosting site, or any of that.

 

The Mississippi Geocachers' Association website is free of all advertising. Hosting services are donated by an MSGA member, so they have no costs associated with hosting the site.

[+Renegade Knight]

I can hardly think of a local geocaching org that isn't either hosted on a free (ad supported) hosting site or that uses ads or to defray the cost for hosting on a pay site.

 

There's at least one, probably more.

 

www.MSGA.Net has no ads, doesn't use a free hosting site, or any of that.

 

The Mississippi Geocachers' Association website is free of all advertising. Hosting services are donated by an MSGA member, so they have no costs associated with hosting the site.

 

At the bottom of the home page. Some soliciting pimpage.

 

"PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license."

 

Towards the top.

Solicitation for funds.

"Donate To The Cause "

 

I've been told first hand by folks that the solication for funds to run a website (though it's a non commercial caching site such as this) has been reason enough to deny a cache with a link to the local caching organization.

[+4 Paws And Then Some]

Uh, before I reply to anyone's posts (I'm still going through the links to old posts) please try to stay friendly here? Whether you're of the opinion I'm "right" or "wrong", these have all been very good facts and I appreciate the time you've all spent to dig up old material and such.

[+ronbo]

 

There's at least one, probably more.

 

www.MSGA.Net has no ads, doesn't use a free hosting site, or any of that.

 

The Mississippi Geocachers' Association website is free of all advertising. Hosting services are donated by an MSGA member, so they have no costs associated with hosting the site.

 

Alabama has free hosting and we have donated hosting. Where did we go wrong??????

[+Kohavis]

Here's my take on it.

 

Linking to any site that contains advertising or solicitation for "donations" is a no-no.

 

For example, I run an internet forum. I have my own dedicated server which I pay for, and I have no advertising on my site. I also include a "Donate" Paypal button on the portal page so regular members can contribute if they wish. But I don't solicit donations. It's strictly voluntary. But even so, if my site were related to geocaching, the donate button would disqualify it because monetary gain can be had.

 

I've never considered linking to my forum in my cache pages. The forum isn't related to caching. But even if it were, spamming another site is a very effective way to raise the hackles of a site admin. My own hackles rise when someone joins just for the purpose of spamming their site in their sig.

 

On the other hand ........

 

If your site had no advertising whatsoever, or donation links, being related to geocaching I would have to wonder what the objection would be. If people weren't interested in visiting your forum, nobody's forcing them to click the link.

 

My advice is to get a formal, official ruling from the geocaching.com higher-ups, as another poster had suggested already.

 

Good luck!

[+WebChimp]

 

At the bottom of the home page. Some soliciting pimpage.

 

"PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license."

 

That's a COPYRIGHT notice, and is required by the software license.

 

I've been told first hand by folks that the solication for funds to run a website (though it's a non commercial caching site such as this) has been reason enough to deny a cache with a link to the local caching organization.

 

The donations don't go to run the website, they are for organization events. The website generates no expenses. Period.

[knowschad]

with the principal or substantial intent of soliciting customers or generating commercial gain.

 

I sure don't see either principal or substantial intent of soliciting anything there except for a local geocaching organization.