+Fugglestone Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I just set out my first cache. Honestly, I was pretty excited about it, waiting for it to post, checking to see who would be first to find, etc., etc., etc. I log in this morning to find that people had found it before it ever posted. Not something I even knew was possible. I have learned that this is called "poaching". The more I thought about it the more annoyed I became that someone couldn't just wait the few hours and grab it when it posted like everyone else. There wasn't even a FTF prize for goodness sake! So, I wanted to ask the forums as a whole, how poaching is percieved? Am I the only one who is worked up about it? Is it considered fair chase to get to them first no matter what means? Quote Link to comment
+wesleykey Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 ? I'm not familar with this at all, nor do I recall it being an issue I have seen in here before??? Quote Link to comment
+BiT Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 My question is how did they know about it before it was posted? Quote Link to comment
CacheNCarryMA Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I think one of the methods that poachers used to use to find unactivated caches was to look for travel bugs dropped in those caches. Not sure how that method works, but people in my neck of the woods used to use that technique. Quote Link to comment
+gpsfun Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I cannot say for sure what happened in this case, but I am told that dropping travel bugs onto a cache page before the page is published can sometimes disclose the location of the unpublished cache. If someone is watching the travel bugs they can see the direction and distance it has moved from it's last location. Many geocachers now wait until their cache page is published before they will write a note to drop the travel bugs and/or geocoins into it. Quote Link to comment
+wesleykey Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I think one of the methods that poachers used to use to find unactivated caches was to look for travel bugs dropped in those caches. Not sure how that method works, but people in my neck of the woods used to use that technique. If several bugs were moved from several different caches into this cache, then you could triangulate and determine the general area of the cache. The way to prevent this is to move all the bugs into one account or cache, then drop them all at once into the new unpublished cache. Quote Link to comment
+KoosKoos Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Found is found. I pretty much don't care how or when someone comes to one of my caches. My only hope is that they enjoy it. Quote Link to comment
CoyoteRed Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I have learned that this is called "poaching".I've never heard that called poaching here. The term poaching I've seen used in other similar hobbies like letterboxing was when someone places a box or cache, knowingly, at or near another box or cache. Basically you're horning in on a location someone else found and used first. You can't poach another cache listed on GC.com with a cache listed here because of proximity rules, but you certainly can poach a cache or box site that is listed on another site. So, I wanted to ask the forums as a whole, how poaching is percieved? Am I the only one who is worked up about it? Is it considered fair chase to get to them first no matter what means? When the cache is placed is when it is open to be being found, not when it is listed. These are two different actions. Quote Link to comment
+Kit Fox Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 (edited) Ivan A. Getting Geocoin 7/23/2008 Fugglestone placed it in Beginner's Luck: TB Bonanza Vermont 15mi SE Arizona Beverage Opener 7/23/2008 Fugglestone placed it in Beginner's Luck: TB Bonanza Vermont 5.2mi NW Dreamweaver 7/23/2008 Fugglestone placed it in Beginner's Luck: TB Bonanza Vermont 8.6mi N Using a "special program," entering the above information, and the coords of the caches where the travelers previously resided, I came up with these coordinates N44 12.216 W72 30.906 Your cache coords are N 44° 12.247 W 072° 30.846 This put me within 322 feet of your cache. What you need to do is find a location for your next cache, mark the coords, create your cache page write-up, then drop travelers into the cache. Wait a couple of days then place the cache. This way the "poachers" can have a field day looking for a non-existant cache. Edited July 24, 2008 by Kit Fox Quote Link to comment
+Fugglestone Posted July 24, 2008 Author Share Posted July 24, 2008 Using a "special program," entering the above information, and the coords of the caches where the travelers previously resided, I came up with these coordinates N44 12.216 W72 30.906 Your cache coords are N 44° 12.247 W 072° 30.846 This put me within 322 feet of your cache. That is good to know. Live and learn I suppose. I will admit it is pretty clever, tracking the bugs and all, and definitely the harder way to go about it. But next time, I will definitely be more careful about placing the TBs. What you need to do is find a location for your next cache, mark the coords, create your cache page write-up, then drop travelers into the cache. Wait a couple of days then place the cache. This way the "poachers" can have a field day looking for a non-existant cache. Of course, this is always a good option too. Quote Link to comment
+BBWolf+3Pigs Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I cannot say for sure what happened in this case, but I am told that dropping travel bugs onto a cache page before the page is published can sometimes disclose the location of the unpublished cache. If someone is watching the travel bugs they can see the direction and distance it has moved from it's last location. Many geocachers now wait until their cache page is published before they will write a note to drop the travel bugs and/or geocoins into it. It's not even that difficult. On the State Page (that shows new caches and TB drops), people see a TB has been dropped into a new cache. When you visit the TB's page and view the map, you are show exactly where the cache is. I looked at the three travelers in the cache, and their position matches exactly where maps..google.com shows the cache is at. Very simple. As GPSFUN noted, I only drop Travelers into caches after they have been published (unless of course they are puzzles, then it doesn't matter). Quote Link to comment
+flask Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 in my neighborhood we call that poaching. and it's great sport. if you put three active TBs in a new cache, it's not hard to find the cache at all. if you put two or even one active TB in it's still not that hard. a TB placed in a cache i never heard about warns me to look for a new cache. if i look at the TB page, i can figure out what general area it's in. if i know the geography of the area and the park layout and the already present caches, i can make some very good guesses about where to find the cache. i have poached caches based on nothing more than a hunch that a new cache was coming out. i made some guesses about how small the area was, and simply started a systematic search. this isn't a very easy way to find caches, but it sure is fun. Quote Link to comment
+OzzieSan Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 It's not even that difficult. On the State Page (that shows new caches and TB drops), people see a TB has been dropped into a new cache. I must be looking at the wrong "State Page"... What "State Page" shows TB drops without an associated cache? Quote Link to comment
+wesleykey Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 (edited) On the State Page (that shows new caches and TB drops), people see a TB has been dropped into a new cache. Where? I only see newly published caches. My link to newly published Alabama caches Edited July 24, 2008 by wesleykey Quote Link to comment
Mr.Yuck Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Using a "special program," entering the above information, and the coords of the caches where the travelers previously resided, I came up with these coordinates N44 12.216 W72 30.906 Your cache coords are N 44° 12.247 W 072° 30.846 This put me within 322 feet of your cache. That is good to know. Live and learn I suppose. I will admit it is pretty clever, tracking the bugs and all, and definitely the harder way to go about it. But next time, I will definitely be more careful about placing the TBs. What you need to do is find a location for your next cache, mark the coords, create your cache page write-up, then drop travelers into the cache. Wait a couple of days then place the cache. This way the "poachers" can have a field day looking for a non-existant cache. Of course, this is always a good option too. Put me in the never heard it called "poaching" camp. Kit's method is interesting. A couple of years ago in my area, a couple of guys copped an attitude about MOC's, and found several using that method, I believe. I myself have checked out the Google Map option, when a TB on my watchlist that I brought to my area from out of town was dropped into a cache with several issues that was never published. Seems to be pretty accurate. I think one of the OP's major questions is, How is this poaching perceived? I'd say bascially, no one cares. It's probably frowned upon in some circles of your local competitive FTF hound game within a game. But when the hounds who get beat at it figure out how to do it as well, I'm sure everything is all good. Quote Link to comment
Mr.Yuck Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 It's not even that difficult. On the State Page (that shows new caches and TB drops), people see a TB has been dropped into a new cache. I must be looking at the wrong "State Page"... What "State Page" shows TB drops without an associated cache? It's the LOCAL State Page, as opposed to the State Page that only shows all the new caches. It's just a little down the page. For example, here is the Alabama Page. Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 So, I wanted to ask the forums as a whole, how poaching is percieved? Am I the only one who is worked up about it? Is it considered fair chase to get to them first no matter what means? I place my caches to be found. When is of no concern to me. If someone can figure out where it is before it's published, that's fine with me. Quote Link to comment
+OzzieSan Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 It's the LOCAL State Page, as opposed to the State Page that only shows all the new caches. It's just a little down the page. For example, here is the Alabama Page. Heck I forgot all about that one... As for the OP's question. I see nothing wrong with finding new ways to play the game. After all it is a "treasure hunt" and what better way to get to the treasure first. Quote Link to comment
+BBWolf+3Pigs Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 It's not even that difficult. On the State Page (that shows new caches and TB drops), people see a TB has been dropped into a new cache. I must be looking at the wrong "State Page"... What "State Page" shows TB drops without an associated cache? It's the LOCAL State Page, as opposed to the State Page that only shows all the new caches. It's just a little down the page. For example, here is the Alabama Page. Thanks. With the new site changes, the link had moved from the main page. Quote Link to comment
+valntine Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I suppose it is a little bit disturbing when you first think about it but.... the point of putting caches out is for people to find them. I know from caching with my friends that my gps is far more accurate than theirs is. Is that cheating because I have better technology? Nah - he still finds more than me. I have a friend that gets a notification on his cell and jumps up in the middle of the night to drive miles to get the FTF. I need my beauty rest. Is he cheating? So, if someone is clever enough and determined enough to triangulate travel bugs to "poach" a cache - who cares? They must have wanted to get it more than I did. Have at it! I was miffed at one point when a virtual army of professionals set out to find a series of my caches. Then someone pointed out that it was a great opportunity for people to get together, socialize and have fun doing what they like to do and that I was a contributor to that by placing the caches. I thought about that and I realized that they were right! The point of caching is to meet interesting people, see different places and have fun. So, enjoy finding and putting out caches and relax. Its only a game. Quote Link to comment
+VT-GeoDevils Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Yup.....you got poached! Since we are caching in the same area (and I've been poached before), I can attest that tha is the proper term here. First time I got poached I felt like you do.....really annoyed me because my new cache had a special FTF prize. I even swore a little at the poacher (who's actually one of my best caching buddies)......and then I realized that everything about geocaching that's supposed to happen had happened. My family found a really nice spot to place a cache...we did the footwork to put it out and stock it well. Sent it in to the reviewer and it was found. Heck, it's been found a bunch of times.....some probably by folks not even looking for a cache there. It's all about how you play your game. Get annoyed and frustrated if you want..... what I did was make it my mission to send some of these poachers on wild duck chases. Now that's fun! Buzz VT-GeoDevils Quote Link to comment
+Bamboogirl Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I am loving Kit's idea about adding bugs and waiting to place the cache! There are some serious FTF hounds in the area. The chances of most regular 'working folk' FTFing anything are pretty slim. I believe as the hider of a cache (I only have a couple but they're not too bad) it's up to me to even the FTF playing field a little. If either of mine had been poached, I would have been significantly peeved that I didn't think of how to prevent it. Using GM and working dropped bugs is very clever. Learning how to turn it against them is better. Quote Link to comment
+yoopers Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I just set out my first cache. Honestly, I was pretty excited about it, waiting for it to post, checking to see who would be first to find, etc., etc., etc. I log in this morning to find that people had found it before it ever posted. Not something I even knew was possible. I have learned that this is called "poaching". The more I thought about it the more annoyed I became that someone couldn't just wait the few hours and grab it when it posted like everyone else. There wasn't even a FTF prize for goodness sake! So, I wanted to ask the forums as a whole, how poaching is percieved? Am I the only one who is worked up about it? Is it considered fair chase to get to them first no matter what means? I think "poaching" is just another extension of the contest to be FTF. Since in this case, I was the one that thought I had a FTF locked in when I arrived at the cache, maybe I should be upset as much as the owner. Actually, I laughed. thought it was a hoot. I knew exactly how they did it cuz I was the one who told them how to figure it out a while a while back. I have done my fair share of this poaching game. In fact if you look at the logs for the cache in question, I started a "requirement" that a poached cache should be poem. http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...ae-b0847d10f827 When the first log appeared from the poachers it was not in that form and I emailed them and reminded them of that "requirement". The logs have all been edited and poems have been written. It's just adds to the fun. I too, have sent people on wild goose chases. Keep in mind, the only thing you have are the coordinates based on the TB's movements. You have no idea if it is a multi, puzzle traditional etc. nor do you know the size of the cache. I deliberately placed the coin that VTgeodevils referred to in a puzzle cache that I had submitted. I knew the FTF chasers would be hot after it. You should have seen the tracks in the snow at the bogus coordinates the next day. I will say that now I know Fuggelstone objects to this type of find, I will not attempt to poach any of his future cache placements. I truly love this game and would like everyone else who plays it to feel the same. Sorry if I had anything to do to upset you. Looking forward to your next cache placement. BTW---To VTgeodevils. I heard you swearing at me but as I said at the time, "couldn't help my self" It isn't every day you get to have a pure silver geocoin in your hands. Sure is a purtty one ain't he? Quote Link to comment
+D@nim@l Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 (edited) There is an easier way to do this that involves no math. On the travel bug page, in the upper right hand corner, you will see "View in Google Earth" When prompted to open the KML file, open it in wordpad or some other text editor as opposed to "Google Earth" At the bottom of all the lines of codes you will find a list of coords for all the moves, like this: -91.4756,44.8164,100 -90.641,44.9523,100 -90.6453,44.9439,100 -90.6454,44.9442,100 -87.9112,44.8243,100 They are formatted backwards in that the East/West are first then North/South. The minuses (-) being west and south. The last one should be the current location. You can get burned if it the first stage to a multi or a puzzle or something other than a traditional. So this bug for example "Birkebeiner Travel Bug" would be in N 44.8242 W 87.9112 or Drinking Pensaukee "West Shores Series" Edited July 24, 2008 by D@nim@l Quote Link to comment
+Fugglestone Posted July 27, 2008 Author Share Posted July 27, 2008 I will say that now I know Fuggelstone objects to this type of find, I will not attempt to poach any of his future cache placements. I truly love this game and would like everyone else who plays it to feel the same. Sorry if I had anything to do to upset you. Looking forward to your next cache placement. I have cooled myself a bit now from when I first posted this question. And in the long run, after much pondering, I have agreed to adopt the attitude that most everyone else here seems to have, I put it out to be found. And since if the stats I saw earlier were correct, they probably put in far more work than my pitiful little cache was worth, they deserved the FTF they got. I will most likely be throwing out more caches in the future, but probably just leaving the bugs out till last. Quote Link to comment
+TrailGators Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 What you need to do is find a location for your next cache, mark the coords, create your cache page write-up, then drop travelers into the cache. Wait a couple of days then place the cache. This way the "poachers" can have a field day looking for a non-existant cache. Good one! Quote Link to comment
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