Any interest in a King County Thomas Guide Challenge?

[+Lizzy]

...don't feel comfortable doing it because I may have been partially responsible for it being unwillingly changed. Lifting the date restriction will be a boon to many others though!

It's there for everyone to enjoy, whether or not we disagree on certain aspects. I hope you change your mind - it would be cool.

[+The Jester]

Since it seems to being discussed here, why the no micro cache finds in the County Challenge? That's the biggest limit for me, as a couple of out-of-the-way counties (for me) have only micro finds still active.

[+TeamIDFC]

Update:

 

I've done all the first-round transcription and conversion. Of the 81 King County pages in the 2008 version of the 3-county Thomas Guide I have, 5 pages have no caches, and one has a single cache.

 

Of the 5 without a cache:

- Page 712: This is SE Vashon - specifically the area that includes Spring Beach Park and the areas north and south. This seems ripe for a cache placement. Anyone know any Vashon Cachers?

- Page 742: A tiny little bit of extreme SE Vashon that doesn't look to be publicly accessible. I'm just going to remove it from the challenge.

- Page 743: The bottom southwest of Vashon that includes Tahlequah and the Point Defiance Tahlequah Ferry dock. Another location that could use a cache. Again the call to Vashon cachers...

- Page 807: The area from the Muckleshoot reservation in the northwest to just outside Enumclaw to the southeast. Also capable of handling a cache (Farmers Park, perhaps?)

- Page 837: One of the more surprising areas without a cache as it includes parts of Bonney Lake through to parts of Buckley.

 

Once I pull 742 that will just leave 4 without a cache.

 

Of the rest, a few pages are places were all the caches are hikes (on the I-90 corridor, for example) so this is going to be a meaty cache to complete.

 

I'm currently working with Hynr to get his GSAK Challenge macro to incorporate this challenge, and I'm finalizing the GSAK filters for the finders to use for their targeting.

 

That's enough for this morning, off to cache in Palm Springs!

[+Lizzy]

Since it seems to being discussed here, why the no micro cache finds in the County Challenge? That's the biggest limit for me, as a couple of out-of-the-way counties (for me) have only micro finds still active.

Selfishness on my part - I'm not really super-fond of micros, and I had to try to make at least some aspects different than the WDC (other than map lines).

[+TeamIDFC]

Thoughts on placing?

 

With 4 pages having no caches and one page having only a single cache, I'm wondering what the crowd thinks about placed caches counting for the challenge? In order to avoid tons of caches getting placed I was thinking that any placed cache in a page with less than 3 caches could count.

 

Thoughts? Too specific and arbitrary?

[+The Jester]

I don't know if you need to put a limit on it. What wrong with another "ton of caches"? There's already several tons out there...

[+-Hawk-]

 

I honestly don't think that's going to be a problem for all but about a couple of pages, and I'm already going to have to account for the 2 pages that don't have a cache.

 

Hmm...

How are you going to do this? Place a cache there yourself, or allow the first person that places a cache in that page, claim that page as found?

[+TeamIDFC]

 

How are you going to do this? Place a cache there yourself, or allow the first person that places a cache in that page, claim that page as found?

The later - if the page has a reasonable sport for a cache (there's at least one page that isn't going to be included).

[+-Hawk-]

The later - if the page has a reasonable sport for a cache (there's at least one page that isn't going to be included).

I am not not familiar with the King County Thomas Guide, so help me understand this page not gonna be included thing. Is there a page that is in the Thomas guide, but doesn't seem like a spot that could house a cache, due to terrain or private property? I have a page here in Kitsap county, that has about 250-300 feet of what seems, in my research, as private property within a page....the rest is in King County, so it will be excluded. I am not sure why Thomas even included it, to be honest.

[+AndrewRJ]

So I saw the Kitsap version is up...

 

Any update on the King County version?

[+TeamIDFC]

So I saw the Kitsap version is up...

 

Any update on the King County version?

Sorry for the massive delays - I would never have thought not working would be so time consuimg, but we've been traveling so things slowed, but...

 

We just placed the final today. I'm in the process of working up the cache listing as I type.. Here's a summary of the "rules" thus far, any comments as I post?

 

-----------------

 

What is the King County Thomas Guide Challenge?

You’ve seen the DeLorme Challenge, the County Challenge, and perhaps the USGS Challenges – great caches that have taken cachers all over their respective states. TeamIDFC has logged thousands of miles exploring all that our state (as well as Oregon) has to offer over many road-trips and many months. In late 2007 Mr. IDFC first saw the San Bernardino Thomas Guide Challenge – a challenge cache that used the age-old Thomas Bros local street guides. Intrigued at the chance to do more exploration of our local areas, TeamIDFC began planning a version for King County.

 

The Thomas Guides are street maps that were the de-facto local roadmaps and geographic breakdowns for many industries long before the prevalence of the GPS. The Northwest Multiple Listing Service (for real estate) uses Thomas Guide pages and grids in every house listing, for example. Thomas Guides are available online, in bookstores, and at Costco.

 

The goal of this cache is the same as the other challenge caches: find a cache on each and every page of the 2008 version of the Thomas Guide that falls in King County.

 

What’s so interesting about King County?

Some interesting facts about King County:

• Population: The estimated 2006 population was 1,835,300, the largest county by population in Washington and the 12th largest in the United States. As of 2006, the county had a population comparable to that of the state of Nebraska.

• History: Founded out of territory from within Thurston County in 1852, the county was originally named for William Rufus King, the vice-president under Franklin Pierce. The county was renamed after Reverend Dr Martin Luther King in 2005, and the logo changed to his image in 2006.

• Geography: King County has nearly twice the land area of the state of Rhode Island - 2,307 square miles. It is the 11th largest county in Washington (of 39) by area. The highest point in the county is Mount Daniel at (7,959 feet) above sea level. The county is home to two major and numerous minor lakes; 5 major rivers and untold creeks and streams; several mountains; and hundreds of square miles of national, state, and local parks

• Geocaches: At the time of this posting, King County had over 2300 caches! Plenty of which you haven’t found!

 

Ok, what are the particular rules/guides/nuances of this challenge?

In order to claim this cache, you just need to send us a GPX file containing all of your finds. We will process the list and verify the number of pages your file contains. Assuming everything looks good, we will send you the correct coordinates for the physical cache! The find cannot be logged until the physical container is found and the logbook inside signed.

 

Based on feedback from and incidents seen with other challenge caches and the Geocaching.com forums, some rules need to be established:

 

1. The posted coordinates are not the actual coordinates for the cache, but are less than 2 miles from these coordinates.

2. At the time of initial posting of this cache, 4 grids did not have caches, and 1 grid had only a single cache. Placement of a cache on an empty page counts the same as finding a cache on that page, until there are 3 or more caches on a page.

3. Only physical cache types with a log count towards the challenge – no virtual, event, or Earthcaches will count for this challenge.

4. If a Thomas Guide page includes space not located in King County, only caches in the King County portion count. We will go off of the posted coordinates for a cache when determining in which county and page a given cache falls.

5. The 2008 version will be considered definitive.

6. When in doubt ask – they will be plenty of discussion but the final decision rests with the cache owner.

 

Thanks to Haicoole for starting the challenge phenomena; to Mount10Bike for the Washington Delorme, the GPX filters, and the template for this page; to Hynr for incorporating this challenge in his GSAK Challenge macro; and to Ms IDFC for putting up with Mr IDFC when he was obsessed with creating this cache.

 

How do I submit and what tools are available?

Send me a file containing all of your finds (and any applicable hides) at MichaelLuce@gmail.com. I will verify your progress/completion for you.

 

The preferred format is .GPX - if you are unsure how to generate such a file, please see globalgirl's extremely helpful WADC Primer (yes, it is for the Delorme, but the GPX generation is the same).

 

Oh, yeah, how about that FTF/previous found stuff?

Rather than make hard and fast rules of “starting fresh” or not, we’ve decided that we will award two FTFs and two FTF prizes. The first person/team to log the cache with legitimate finds in all pages will get the “first” FTF. The first team to log the cache with finds only after the cache posting will get a different FTF. There are two FTFs currently in the cache, each wrapped and marked accordingly. (Please don’t take the “starting fresh” FTF if you aren’t trying for it – thanks!)

 

Finally, if you’ve got questions – ask. If you want to discuss more, there is a forum posting at: this link.

 

---------------

 

Hopefully we'll be up and running in the next couple days!

[+hydnsek]

1. Learned some interesting stuff about King Cty. Thanks!

 

2. Since previous finds count...do archived caches count? For example, if I found a cache two years ago in a grid, and it's now archived, can I count it? (I'm thinking in some sparse grids, there could be archived caches.) Suggest noting something on the cache page about archived caches.

 

3. Can't wait to watch the race for armchair FTF. Oh wait, there are grids w/o caches. Never mind.

 

Thanks for all your hard work to set this up! Looks like fun.

Edited March 8, 2008 by hydnsek

[Team Misguided]

Ok, what are the particular rules/guides/nuances of this challenge?

In order to claim this cache, you just need to send us a GPX file containing all of your finds. We will process the list and verify the number of pages your file contains. Assuming everything looks good, we will send you the correct coordinates for the physical cache! The find cannot be logged until the physical container is found and the logbook inside signed.

 

 

This part of your proposed rules will need to be changed. Caches that have an email for final coordinates component are generally not permitted. The DeLorme Challenge being the exception to this guideline. The preferred method at this time is what has been done by both the Kitsap County Challenge and the Snohomish County Challenge. That is to have the actual coordinates for the cache be posted on the cache page with the understanding that any logged finds will be verified by the cache owner and may be deleted if the requirements have not been met.

[+Right Wing Wacko]

Ok, what are the particular rules/guides/nuances of this challenge?

In order to claim this cache, you just need to send us a GPX file containing all of your finds. We will process the list and verify the number of pages your file contains. Assuming everything looks good, we will send you the correct coordinates for the physical cache! The find cannot be logged until the physical container is found and the logbook inside signed.

 

Also, as was explained to me the GPX file provision violates groundspeaks TOS. The easiest way around this is to have participants post a Book Mark list of the caches they are using to claim the challenge. To verify the cache owner could then use the option to convert a book mark list to a GPX

Edited March 8, 2008 by Right Wing Wacko

[square_peg]

- New vs old: Should we allow previous finds, or force just new?

 

 

Force new. Otherwise what's the point?

[+hydnsek]

Ok, what are the particular rules/guides/nuances of this challenge?

In order to claim this cache, you just need to send us a GPX file containing all of your finds. We will process the list and verify the number of pages your file contains. Assuming everything looks good, we will send you the correct coordinates for the physical cache! The find cannot be logged until the physical container is found and the logbook inside signed.

 

Also, as was explained to me the GPX file provision violates groundspeaks TOS. The easiest way around this is to have participants post a Book Mark list of the caches they are using to claim the challenge. To verify the cache owner could then use the option to convert a book mark list to a GPX

Good point, and true. But only Premium Members can do bookmark lists. The Kitsap County Challenge folks appear to have developed an alternative that you might want to consider for this challenge, as well.

[Team Misguided]

RWW is correct. Cachers cannot simply send you a copy of their 'my finds' pocket query. There are ways to create a file of their finds in either a .gpx format or .loc format that wouldn't violate the site rules but they take a bit of extra work.

 

The best method is using a bookmark list. You can run a PQ based on someone's bookmark list and get your Groundspeak approved .gpx file that you can use to verify finds.

Edited March 8, 2008 by Team Misguided

[+TeamIDFC]

RWW is correct. Cachers cannot simply send you a copy of their 'my finds' pocket query. There are ways to create a file of their finds in either a .gpx format or .loc format that wouldn't violate the site rules but they take a bit of extra work.

 

The best method is using a bookmark list. You can run a PQ based on someone's bookmark list and get your Groundspeak approved .gpx file that you can use to verify finds.

In fairness I wasn't asking for thie MyFinds, I was asking for a GPX like Moun10Bike does for Delorme, but I think the bookmark makes sense to use (though I don't think you can do a PQ on it, just download it as a LOC file). We'll go with that.

[+TeamIDFC]

Ok, what are the particular rules/guides/nuances of this challenge?

In order to claim this cache, you just need to send us a GPX file containing all of your finds. We will process the list and verify the number of pages your file contains. Assuming everything looks good, we will send you the correct coordinates for the physical cache! The find cannot be logged until the physical container is found and the logbook inside signed.

 

Also, as was explained to me the GPX file provision violates groundspeaks TOS. The easiest way around this is to have participants post a Book Mark list of the caches they are using to claim the challenge. To verify the cache owner could then use the option to convert a book mark list to a GPX

Good point, and true. But only Premium Members can do bookmark lists. The Kitsap County Challenge folks appear to have developed an alternative that you might want to consider for this challenge, as well.

That was the hope with the GPX file - that I wouldn't have to process by hand. I'll offer a text file or Excel option of some sort I guess.

[+TeamIDFC]

- New vs old: Should we allow previous finds, or force just new?

 

Force new. Otherwise what's the point?

We've decided to effectively run two challenges in parallel. The "Armchair Challenge" and the "Starting Fresh" challenge. There will be two FTFs awarded, and there are two FTF prizes already in the cache. Hopefully this will avoid all the conflict we've seen in so many other challenge caches. If folks want to rediscover places they might have been - great. If they want to leverage their extensive cache finds - also great.

[+TeamIDFC]

2. Since previous finds count...do archived caches count? For example, if I found a cache two years ago in a grid, and it's now archived, can I count it? (I'm thinking in some sparse grids, there could be archived caches.) Suggest noting something on the cache page about archived caches.

Hmm, interesting question. I guess any legitamate find should count, so I don't think I would exclude archvied caches from the armchair race.

 

Thanks for all your hard work to set this up! Looks like fun.

Thanks for the kind words - with all the debate over rules and procedures it can take some of the fun out of the hide...

[+hydnsek]

RWW is correct. Cachers cannot simply send you a copy of their 'my finds' pocket query. There are ways to create a file of their finds in either a .gpx format or .loc format that wouldn't violate the site rules but they take a bit of extra work.

 

The best method is using a bookmark list. You can run a PQ based on someone's bookmark list and get your Groundspeak approved .gpx file that you can use to verify finds.

In fairness I wasn't asking for thie MyFinds, I was asking for a GPX like Moun10Bike does for Delorme, but I think the bookmark makes sense to use (though I don't think you can do a PQ on it, just download it as a LOC file). We'll go with that.

You can do a PQ on a bookmark list; I do it all the time, and the results are a GPX file. Again, however, note that only premium members can do bookmark lists and PQs, so you may need an alternative for regular members.

Edited March 8, 2008 by hydnsek

[+TeamIDFC]

You can do a PQ on a bookmark list; I do it all the time, and the results are a GPX file.

Oh, you mean the "Create PQ Query" button that is right below the Loc button? Woops - missed that ever so obvious button...

[+TeamIDFC]

I submitted the cache last night and (in what is becoming increasingly too common) wound up too close to a final of a mystery. We'll have to get out and chance it in the next day or so.

 

Almost there...

[+TeamIDFC]

I submitted the cache last night and (in what is becoming increasingly too common) wound up too close to a final of a mystery. We'll have to get out and chance it in the next day or so.

 

Almost there...

It's now posted: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=GC1A012

[+W7WT]

Did I count right, 800 caches to find?? I haven't seen the King County

Thomas Guide, but would guess this is going to be a real Challenge.

Good Luck, Dick

[+WeightMan]

Did I count right, 800 caches to find?? I haven't seen the King County

Thomas Guide, but would guess this is going to be a real Challenge.

Good Luck, Dick

While the page numbers go that high, I only count 80 pages.

[+W7WT]

Did I count right, 800 caches to find?? I haven't seen the King County

Thomas Guide, but would guess this is going to be a real Challenge.

Good Luck, Dick

While the page numbers go that high, I only count 80 pages.

 

Thanks, 80 sounds doable. dick

[+Right Wing Wacko]

Did I count right, 800 caches to find?? I haven't seen the King County

Thomas Guide, but would guess this is going to be a real Challenge.

Good Luck, Dick

While the page numbers go that high, I only count 80 pages.

 

Thanks, 80 sounds doable. dick

 

Or you can come up north to Snohomish County where we just had an FTF on our TG Challenge. 53 Pages.

[+W7WT]

Did I count right, 800 caches to find?? I haven't seen the King County

Thomas Guide, but would guess this is going to be a real Challenge.

Good Luck, Dick

While the page numbers go that high, I only count 80 pages.

 

Thanks, 80 sounds doable. dick

 

Or you can come up north to Snohomish County where we just had an FTF on our TG Challenge. 53 Pages.

 

You did a good job and made good judgement in setting up Snohomish County. I think setting the starting date at the first of the year was a good idea. Our problem in Kitsap right now is that until someone places more caches some of the cachers have already found all the

caches in some of the maps. I have been following your bookmarks and have seen that they were

making rapid progress.

Edited March 12, 2008 by W7WT

[+Harriet the Spy]

The date being set back to the first of the year was a great idea! If you think about it, the map book was for 2008, and 2008 started on January 1.

[+Prying Pandora]

Congratulations to FunnyNose for being FTF on the King County Thomas Guide Challenge this morning!!!!

 

He accomplished this by getting out of his armchair and personally visiting every Thomas Guide page in King County, something no other cacher has accomplished yet. Good job, FunnyNose! (You've earned some armchair time now)

[+TeamIDFC]

Just a note to anyone working on the challenge but doesn't have a watch set up on the cache: there were a couple errors in the GSAK filters (with hundreds of points I'm somewhat surprised I didn't make more). In any case, they are fixed and an updated copy has been uploaded.

 

I've also added a Streets and Trips file with the page corners as pins for those that might find that useful.

 

-- Michael

[+intolerable]

I was wondering if anyone had the KCTG-GPX.gpx file?

 

I was hoping to make use of it and just avoid pages 478/479 and 685/686, but it appears I didn't save the file. Any help would be appreciated!

[+mikeluce]

Question: Ms IDFC and I are working our way through completing the challenge like many others. We're having a great time exploring King County in the process - but it does create a question. Do we log a find when we are done? We'll have completed the requirements - good. It's our cache - bad. Are there precedents for this? A regular cache would seem lame to claim a find, but with a challenge like this it seems a more clouded situation...

[+W7WT]

Question: Ms IDFC and I are working our way through completing the challenge like many others. We're having a great time exploring King County in the process - but it does create a question. Do we log a find when we are done? We'll have completed the requirements - good. It's our cache - bad. Are there precedents for this? A regular cache would seem lame to claim a find, but with a challenge like this it seems a more clouded situation..

.

[/quote

 

I am co-owner of the Kitsap County Challenge, but not the owner and in the same situation. I was not along when the cache was placed. I started looking for caches in all the maps so I would be aware of what was available in all the maps. We have enjoyed doing that. I intend to close out all the maps in due time but haven't decided what to do about the final. I do intend to find it but not sure like you if I should declare it a FIND or not. I will wait until that time comes. If I was the owner,I don't think I should. Since I get no credit for a hide, and don't know where the cache is hid, I might just call it a find. Dick