Quick question

[+sbell111]

Calm down sbell, in case you didn't know, I don't own a gun, or a knife, or bow or even a club other than a golf club. I think my dad is a bit different though. And yes, you make a mistake and trespass on our course and you run a GOOD risk of being held by gunpoint if needed, but the gun WILL be present. Not US doing anything wrong, but we WILL protect our property. You find that disturbing? Don't trepass at our course.

 

Oh, we're not alone in that stance around here!!

I'm completely calm. You might note, however, that holding a person at gunpoint for merely walking across a golf course may very likely cause charges to be filed against you or subject you to an ugly civil suit, but that's not the topic of this thread.

 

Where are you from? I'll assume you don't know the laws around here. It's been done more than once.

 

We're off track, if you care to discuss this you can PM me!!

I have no desire to discuss it, but I will point you to sections 750.233, 750.234, and 750.349 of the Michigan Penal Code.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Calm down sbell, in case you didn't know, I don't own a gun, or a knife, or bow or even a club other than a golf club. I think my dad is a bit different though. And yes, you make a mistake and trespass on our course and you run a GOOD risk of being held by gunpoint if needed, but the gun WILL be present. Not US doing anything wrong, but we WILL protect our property. You find that disturbing? Don't trepass at our course.

 

Oh, we're not alone in that stance around here!!

I'm completely calm. You might note, however, that holding a person at gunpoint for merely walking across a golf course may very likely cause charges to be filed against you or subject you to an ugly civil suit, but that's not the topic of this thread.

 

Where are you from? I'll assume you don't know the laws around here. It's been done more than once.

 

We're off track, if you care to discuss this you can PM me!!

I have no desire to discuss it, but I will point you to sections 750.233, 750.234, and 750.349 of the Michigan Penal Code.

You have another PM

 

any ON topic comments?

[+Rockin Roddy]

Calm down sbell, in case you didn't know, I don't own a gun, or a knife, or bow or even a club other than a golf club. I think my dad is a bit different though. And yes, you make a mistake and trespass on our course and you run a GOOD risk of being held by gunpoint if needed, but the gun WILL be present. Not US doing anything wrong, but we WILL protect our property. You find that disturbing? Don't trepass at our course.

 

Oh, we're not alone in that stance around here!!

I'm completely calm. You might note, however, that holding a person at gunpoint for merely walking across a golf course may very likely cause charges to be filed against you or subject you to an ugly civil suit, but that's not the topic of this thread.

 

Where are you from? I'll assume you don't know the laws around here. It's been done more than once.

 

We're off track, if you care to discuss this you can PM me!!

I have no desire to discuss it, but I will point you to sections 750.233, 750.234, and 750.349 of the Michigan Penal Code.

You have another PM

 

any ON topic comments?

[Mushtang]

Nobody is suggesting that we're allowed to place geocaches on Walmart property whenever we like and they can't do a dang thing about it. But for some reason most of the replies to those of us saying you don't always need express permission have sounded like that's what we're saying.

[+KBI]

Again, all I'm trying to do is to suggest that there ARE things you can do in a Wal-Mart parking lot, and to get someone to suggest the level of activity at which they'd decide they should get express permission.

I’ll take a crack at it.

 

The exact level of activity at which I would think I should get express permission for an activity from a store manager, parks manager, parking lot owner, plant manager, church leader, my boss, my wife, my kids, my brother, or the owner of a home where I’m a guest for dinner ... is the exact point at which I become uncomfortable in assuming the person I need permission from would mind whether I engage in the activity. I generally base that judgment on:

(1) Observed past practice of the authority in question, or of someone in a meaningfully similar position as that authority, and

(2) Imagining myself in their position and looking at my activity from their point of view.

 

An eight year old boy reaches into the kitchen cookie jar when his mother isn’t looking. Does he have adequate permission to help himself to a cookie? It depends:

(1) What did his mom say the last two or three times she saw him reach into the jar?

(2) How would she likely perceive the current cookie attempt – did he eat all his veggies just now, as he was instructed?

 

A cacher is considering a new cache placement in a public park or a retail parking lot. Does he have adequate permission to place the cache? It depends:

(1) What was his impression of comparable cache hides he’s seen in the past? Has he ever known of similar hides causing any problems?

(2) What if he was an owner, manager, or user of this particular property – would he be bothered by activities related to the cache, when looked at from their points of view? Would that person likely include geocaching in the set of activities that he normally considers acceptable?

 

Whether we’re talking cookies, Frisbee games, picnics, cache hunts or any other wholesome activity, each individual case is unique, and each individual case requires an individual application of common sense. Conducting oneself in a manner so as not to frighten other people or otherwise deprive them of their rights would seem to be an intuitive requirement for participation in this game.

 

If I’m reasonably certain my cache placement will generate activities that I believe are meaningfully similar to other activities which are observed to be allowed, and if, after putting myself in the shoes of the owner of the park or parking lot I don’t see a problem, then I might be willing to assume I have adequate permission to place the cache, just as I assume I have had adequate permission for every other activity I have ever done in those places.

 

With freedom comes responsibility, however. If my assumptions were mistaken then I am responsible for the consequences, whether they be from a misinformed park manager who hates caching or a nervous parking lot owner who is afraid he’ll get sued if I choke on my hamburger while having lunch in my car in front of his store.

 

This is my interpretation of the Frisbee Rule, and this is my interpretation of the Adequate Permission guideline for placing geocaches.

 

Or, if I were a bit better at brevity I might put it this way:

There are a lot of areas where adequate permission for all kinds of activities has already been granted due to the nature of the location, and express permission for all kinds of activities is not required.

Or this way:

The real question for real people is "Is geoaching a viable activity in areas of public accommodation?" My answer is that yes all areas of public accommodation are valid places to consider caching in. Consider is not a rubber yes stamp. There should be no need or desire to make the question more complex than that. Joe Citizen could care less and right fully so. Armchair lawyers are another thing.

As Mushtang says, there are a lot of areas where express permission for all kinds of activities is not required.

 

My personal standard for placing caches in places where I do not believe express permission is required is very similar to my personal standard for seeking caches (or playing Frisbee, or eating my hamburger) in any location: If I am comfortable being there then I will proceed. If not, then I’ll go elsewhere.

[+Renegade Knight]

Nobody is suggesting that we're allowed to place geocaches on Walmart property whenever we like and they can't do a dang thing about it. But for some reason most of the replies to those of us saying you don't always need express permission have sounded like that's what we're saying.

 

They don't understand why it's ok for kids to play hide and seek in their own neighborhood without getting express permission from each and every home on the block. They wouldn't understand the connection between geocaching as an adult and hide and seek as a kid either.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Guys, I understand perfectly. I understand there are MANY places where permission isn't needed, I do hide caches after all! I also know there are places you DO need permission...the line between can be darned fine in some cases!!

 

I also understand that MOST WWs will not give a hoot if there's a cache in their parking lot, BUT, there might be some parking lots which do...again, a fine line at times. Truly, I don't care as I'm not going to plant a WW cache anyway, but I don't mind throwing my 2 cents in every now and again!!

[+ReadyOrNot]

Guys, I understand perfectly. I understand there are MANY places where permission isn't needed, I do hide caches after all! I also know there are places you DO need permission...the line between can be darned fine in some cases!!

 

I also understand that MOST WWs will not give a hoot if there's a cache in their parking lot, BUT, there might be some parking lots which do...again, a fine line at times. Truly, I don't care as I'm not going to plant a WW cache anyway, but I don't mind throwing my 2 cents in every now and again!!

 

Sounds like everyone needs to use "Common Sense"... although sometimes it doesn't seem all that common.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Guys, I understand perfectly. I understand there are MANY places where permission isn't needed, I do hide caches after all! I also know there are places you DO need permission...the line between can be darned fine in some cases!!

 

I also understand that MOST WWs will not give a hoot if there's a cache in their parking lot, BUT, there might be some parking lots which do...again, a fine line at times. Truly, I don't care as I'm not going to plant a WW cache anyway, but I don't mind throwing my 2 cents in every now and again!!

 

Sounds like everyone needs to use "Common Sense"... although sometimes it doesn't seem all that common.

Sounds about right to me!!

[+egami]

Nobody is suggesting that we're allowed to place geocaches on Walmart property whenever we like and they can't do a dang thing about it. But for some reason most of the replies to those of us saying you don't always need express permission have sounded like that's what we're saying.

 

Actually, that was the exact example used and the logic to justify it was the frisbee logic.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Nobody is suggesting that we're allowed to place geocaches on Walmart property whenever we like and they can't do a dang thing about it. But for some reason most of the replies to those of us saying you don't always need express permission have sounded like that's what we're saying.

 

Actually, that was the exact example used and the logic to justify it was the frisbee logic.

 

This is true!

[Mushtang]

Nobody is suggesting that we're allowed to place geocaches on Walmart property whenever we like and they can't do a dang thing about it. But for some reason most of the replies to those of us saying you don't always need express permission have sounded like that's what we're saying.

 

Actually, that was the exact example used and the logic to justify it was the frisbee logic.

Actually, I would reply to this, except you admitted you're a troll and I'm not going to feed you again.

 

Nice try though.

[+egami]

And, once again, factually incorrect.

 

Not showing my hand and revealing part of my stance doesn't equate to trolling.

 

I find it ironic that my integrity would be questioned by someone with an irresponsible attitude toward placing things on private property.

[+Glenn]

Reverse it again. You throw the oil cans away in the WW trash can. Who gave you the right to throw away your personal property (yeah it's trash, but it's YOUR trash) in their trash can placed there for their use and conveneince? Dang, is is litter to throw your trash into someone elses personal property even if it's a trash can?

 

Are you trying to say that WalMart placed lamp posts in their parking lots to make hiding caches convenient the same way that they has placed trashcans in their parking lots to make throwing away trash convenient. What about the dumpsters behind WalMart? Is it okay to use them too?

[+egami]

What about the dumpsters behind WalMart? Is it okay to use them too?

 

Duh, you can throw a frisbee by them! (sorry, couldn't resist)

[+sbell111]

And, once again, factually incorrect.

 

Not showing my hand and revealing part of my stance doesn't equate to trolling.

 

I find it ironic that my integrity would be questioned by someone with an irresponsible attitude toward placing things on private property.

Actually, you argued against a position and then admitted that you agreed with it and only took the position so others would argue against it.

 

I'd say that fits the definition of trolling perfectly.

[Clan Riffster]

Contrary to my oft stated position that I would never do so, I just hid a film canister in a Wally World lamp post.

ALWAYS Lame (a tutorial)

[Mushtang]

Contrary to my oft stated position that I would never do so, I just hid a film canister in a Wally World lamp post.

ALWAYS Lame (a tutorial)

Wow, I guess a cache that has an agenda DOES slide by the reviewers from time to time.

 

Nicely done. I'm sure you'll cure the world of LPCs with it. Let me know how it goes.

[Clan Riffster]

Stating my opinion hardly qualifies as an agenda.

[+TrailGators]

Contrary to my oft stated position that I would never do so, I just hid a film canister in a Wally World lamp post.

ALWAYS Lame (a tutorial)

I don't log LPCs anymore CR, but if I was in Florida I'd make an exception for your LPC...

[+KBI]

Contrary to my oft stated position that I would never do so, I just hid a film canister in a Wally World lamp post.

ALWAYS Lame (a tutorial)

Some might also use the L-word to describe the act of pretentiously telling others what types of caches they should or should not enjoy.

 

From the guidelines:

Caches that Solicit

 

For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

Take your very first "rule" for example:

Location

The motto for Groundspeak is "The Language of Location". This, more than anything, should be your first clue in determining if your cache is a stinker. Ask yourself, "Why am I bringing people to this spot?" If the only answer you can come up with is yet another mindless smiley, perhaps it's time to rethink ground zero. A waterfall is good. 500 acres of sweltering, exhaust laden blacktop filled with soccer moms in SUV's is bad.

You are telling people that a visually attractive location is of primary importance. Not asking. Telling.

 

I understand that what you describe is your personal preference. Why do you tell others that it must be their preference as well? I like a pretty location same as you, but a pretty location is not a requirement for me to be able to enjoy a geocache. Some of my favorite finds have been in less-than-picturesque spots; I enjoy caching for a wide variety of reasons, not just as a tourguide. I believe your relatively narrow preference limits your options for potential entertainment, but I also believe that preference is your choice, and that you should be free to exercise that choice.

 

To each his own. You wouldn’t enjoy finding a cache in a parking lot. I wouldn’t enjoy placing an agenda cache intended to lecture folks on my personal set of preferences as if they were the only acceptable way to play.

 

You obviously meant for your cache to be perceived as lame. I believe you have accomplished this goal on more levels than you may have realized.

[Mushtang]

You obviously meant for your cache to be perceived as lame. I believe you have accomplished this goal on more levels than you may have realized.

I'm guessing now is when we'll get told that his cache was meant to be a joke and we should lighten up?

 

<edit>

C'mon, this post is just meant to be a joke. Lighten up already.

Edited January 13, 2008 by Mushtang

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

You obviously meant for your cache to be perceived as lame. I believe you have accomplished this goal on more levels than you may have realized.

I'm guessing now is when we'll get told that his cache was meant to be a joke and we should lighten up?

 

Hey, his cache was meant as a joke and you two should lighten up.

(Dang, you're good)

 

PS, Welcome back to the Forums Clan Riffster, hope you stay awhile.

[+KBI]

Welcome back to the Forums Clan Riffster, hope you stay awhile.

Yes! Welcome back, Clan Riffster. You are one of my favorite forum people; your posts are always interesting. Where have you been?

[CoyoteRed]

Contrary to my oft stated position that I would never do so, I just hid a film canister in a Wally World lamp post.

ALWAYS Lame (a tutorial)

I've been thinking of doing something similar. Also, doing one ... different. Both focus on the typical Walmart LPC-style cache.

 

BTW, I don't think the agenda guideline applies when the agenda is a geocaching how-to. It would be kind of silly if it were, IMHO. We have a couple of beginners' caches. Being easy and a brief tutorial of geocaching could be considered an agenda, I suppose, yet entirely appropriate.

[+TrailGators]

Contrary to my oft stated position that I would never do so, I just hid a film canister in a Wally World lamp post.

ALWAYS Lame (a tutorial)

I've been thinking of doing something similar. Also, doing one ... different. Both focus on the typical Walmart LPC-style cache.

 

BTW, I don't think the agenda guideline applies when the agenda is a geocaching how-to. It would be kind of silly if it were, IMHO. We have a couple of beginners' caches. Being easy and a brief tutorial of geocaching could be considered an agenda, I suppose, yet entirely appropriate.

It's not an agenda. I've seen a couple of caches like this one discussed in these forums. Most people that find these caches not only get the joke, but are more than willing to add to it with a humerous log. One of my favorite quotes was written by George Bernard Shaw applies here: "My way of joking is to tell the truth. It is the funniest joke in the world."

[+Ambrosia]

Isn't it funny how people can say pretty much anything they like, and when people say something about it, they say that it's only a joke and then put down the people who criticized it?

[+TrailGators]

Ambrosia, try using the ignore button on caches that you don't like. It works great!

Edited January 13, 2008 by TrailGators

[+Ambrosia]

Ambrosia, try using the ignore button on caches that you don't like. It works great!

Well, I was going to post that the Always lame cache mentioned a couple posts ago almost made me create a public bookmark titled "caches on my ignore list". But I thought that might be too controversial to post here and so I refrained.

[+TrailGators]

Ambrosia, try using the ignore button on caches that you don't like. It works great!

Well, I was going to post that the Always lame cache mentioned a couple posts ago almost made me create a public bookmark titled "caches on my ignore list". But I thought that might be too controversial to post here and so I refrained.

That is a double-edged sword. I don't agree with public bookmarks like that. It shows up on the cache page and takes a friendly opinion too far. The forums are the best place to express our opinions.

[+Ambrosia]

Ambrosia, try using the ignore button on caches that you don't like. It works great!

Well, I was going to post that the Always lame cache mentioned a couple posts ago almost made me create a public bookmark titled "caches on my ignore list". But I thought that might be too controversial to post here and so I refrained.

That is a double-edged sword. I don't agree with public bookmarks like that. It shows up on the cache page and takes a friendly opinion too far. The forums are the best place to express our opinions.

Yup, I've always felt that as well, and would never make a bookmark like that. But this is the first time that I've had the urge to do so.

[+TrailGators]

Ambrosia, try using the ignore button on caches that you don't like. It works great!

Well, I was going to post that the Always lame cache mentioned a couple posts ago almost made me create a public bookmark titled "caches on my ignore list". But I thought that might be too controversial to post here and so I refrained.

That is a double-edged sword. I don't agree with public bookmarks like that. It shows up on the cache page and takes a friendly opinion too far. The forums are the best place to express our opinions.

Yup, I've always felt that as well, and would never make a bookmark like that. But this is the first time that I've had the urge to do so.

Ambrosia, I know that you are joking...

[Clan Riffster]

Yup, I've always felt that as well, and would never make a bookmark like that. But this is the first time that I've had the urge to do so.

I feel honored...

[+egami]

And, once again, factually incorrect.

 

Not showing my hand and revealing part of my stance doesn't equate to trolling.

 

I find it ironic that my integrity would be questioned by someone with an irresponsible attitude toward placing things on private property.

Actually, you argued against a position and then admitted that you agreed with it and only took the position so others would argue against it.

 

I'd say that fits the definition of trolling perfectly.

 

That's not true...what I did was state to someone who came into the thread with a reasonable, sensible response and admitted that I agree with their stance.

 

The problem wasn't me....the problem was your perception of what my stance was. All I did was let you think what you wanted to.

 

Allowing you to believe your own hasty generalizations isn't trolling.

[+sbell111]

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

[+Renegade Knight]

Reverse it again. You throw the oil cans away in the WW trash can. Who gave you the right to throw away your personal property (yeah it's trash, but it's YOUR trash) in their trash can placed there for their use and conveneince? Dang, is is litter to throw your trash into someone elses personal property even if it's a trash can?

 

Are you trying to say that WalMart placed lamp posts in their parking lots to make hiding caches convenient the same way that they has placed trashcans in their parking lots to make throwing away trash convenient. What about the dumpsters behind WalMart? Is it okay to use them too?

What exactly is your question? In my opinion a cache on a dumptser is a stupid location for quite a few reasons that have nothing to do with permission.

[+Renegade Knight]

...A lot of it IS OK, but that doesn't mean "do as you please"....Again, how will you know what is considered disruptive or destructive? Actually, how will you know if just looking for a cache isn't considered disruptive? ...

 

Do as you please is what we all do subject to certain limits of civility. That's freedom for responsible people.

 

As for cache disruption, they aren't. Life can intervene and create a disruption out of almost anything but that's seldom the fault of the 'anthing'. The cache itself and geocaching as a whole is non disruptive.

 

Back to the frisbee test.

When I play frisbe I bring my equipment (call it a game piece) for the duration of the activity. That's all a cache is. A game peice that's located for the duration of the activity in that spot. All caches are temporary. They are merely a part of a larger activity that takes place in the world around us. A perfecty permissible activity and reasonable use of the world around it.

 

I'll be more geocachers vote than the normal averages.

[+Renegade Knight]

...The security guard was doing his job. Causing him to do his job while not doing anything actually wrong is not 'disruptive', in my opinion....

 

Sorry I cut out the post you were responding to, but my answer covers both.

 

The securty guard has a job to do. A cache with permissoin is fine. However it's my opinion that placing a cache even with permission where there is security is a bad idea. Security has a job to do and they will always wonder about cachers looking for a cache. It's the issues that will be created for potential finders that are key here. No reason to have security accost them if they are doing nothing wrong (but security won't know that until after the fact).

 

Of course I'm sure that there are certain spots that are well worth doing whatever it's going to take to keep a cache like this viable. I don't happen to know any though.

[+Renegade Knight]

...One of them started out saying no, but after talking about it a little longer warmed to the idea...

All of them said they would have no problem with people throwing frisbees.

Looks like you are good at working with people.

 

Now about those Poor Mans frisbee's that just happen to be the lids on tupperware...

[+sbell111]

...The security guard was doing his job. Causing him to do his job while not doing anything actually wrong is not 'disruptive', in my opinion....

Sorry I cut out the post you were responding to, but my answer covers both.

 

The securty guard has a job to do. A cache with permissoin is fine. However it's my opinion that placing a cache even with permission where there is security is a bad idea. Security has a job to do and they will always wonder about cachers looking for a cache. It's the issues that will be created for potential finders that are key here. No reason to have security accost them if they are doing nothing wrong (but security won't know that until after the fact).

 

Of course I'm sure that there are certain spots that are well worth doing whatever it's going to take to keep a cache like this viable. I don't happen to know any though.

While I certainly believe that the presense of active security changes the necessity for management to be notified of a cache, I don't think that security should preclude geocaching.

 

In an ideal scenario, security would be made aware of the geocache by management. Security still would wander over and inquire as to what you would be doing, but they would be reasonably satisfied with 'geocaching' as an answer.

 

There are certainly many, many locations that have active security but still allow activities on site. Colleges may be the perfect example.

[+ventura_kids]

Does Security have the ability to find lampost hides?

 

I usually invite any Security to help me search for the Geocache... oops...that's a whole different thread.

[+Renegade Knight]

Does Security have the ability to find lampost hides?

 

I usually invite any Security to help me search for the Geocache... oops...that's a whole different thread.

That's my normal answer to "Can I help you?" Heck yeah, hold this flashlight while I look... I love the reaction to actually answering their request to help you with actual help you could use.

Edited January 14, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+BlueDeuce]

I haven't even opened this thread until now, but lately I've been chuckling over the title and the couple hundred responses.

 

Quick question - long answer.

 

Carry on.

[Clan Riffster]

Quick question - long answer.

Mix well, equal portions of fact, opinion, hyperbole and drama, and the end result is a long thread on the GC forums.

[+egami]

You know, you'd think by now they'd have a "canned threads" forum.

[+Renegade Knight]

You know, you'd think by now they'd have a "canned threads" forum.

Cool, I see you have made suggestion #45 Subtype D.

See Standard Responce #37 Variation B.

[+egami]

You know, you'd think by now they'd have a "canned threads" forum.

Cool, I see you have made suggestion #45 Subtype D.

See Standard Responce #37 Variation B.

 

 

Exactly...seems like that at times, no?

[+llano]

Let's imagine that we're driving my RV across country because we want to find some of those awesome caches in Iowa. I pull into an empty area of WalMart's parking lot and drop anchor for the night. Would it be OK for us to toss a frisbee, or should I go in the store and ask permission?

 

I imagine many Wallyworlds would have an issue with someone dropping anchor for the night or any other unauthorized use of their lot.

[+sbell111]

Let's imagine that we're driving my RV across country because we want to find some of those awesome caches in Iowa. I pull into an empty area of WalMart's parking lot and drop anchor for the night. Would it be OK for us to toss a frisbee, or should I go in the store and ask permission?

I imagine many Wallyworlds would have an issue with someone dropping anchor for the night or any other unauthorized use of their lot.

I imagine that you aren't familiar with WalMart's relationship with the RV community.

 

From WalMart's site:

We value each of our customers and allowing overnight parking can enhance the one-stop shopping convenience for RV'ers, where permissible.

Edited January 15, 2008 by sbell111

[+egami]

I imagine many Wallyworlds would have an issue with someone dropping anchor for the night or any other unauthorized use of their lot.

 

Wal-Mart's are generally pretty good about letting RVer's use their lots, but the few we've stopped in and done this we've asked permission and received it. Some managers care. One manager said never worry about asking. We've only found one that said no to parking an RV there.

 

On the one that said no we just went up the road to the next one...but only after throwing a frisbee around on their lot just because!