Any one else find micros boring?

[+KBI]

Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should. Playing to the lowest dominator of human behavior is seldom a good thing. Walmart parking lot hides, hides behind memorials to the dead, hides in front of bussinesses, crammed between building dedication plaques and the brickwork and at other exposed muggle overrun locations is an embarrassment to the game, period.

None of the hide types you list are limited to micros.

 

Are we still talking about micros, or have we dropped the cache size discussion in favor of talking about appropriateness of placement?

 

If so, then I think you are mixing two different issues. Don’t forget there are two categories of "bad" when it comes to cache hides:

(1) Caches which are bad due to practical reasons (leaky container, coords way off, violate guidelines), and

(2) Caches which are bad due to aesthetic reasons (you don’t like long hikes, you don’t like puns in the cache name, you don’t like unoriginal camouflage).

 

Your list of examples, considering your implied personal preference, would seem to span both categories.

 

If a cache hide clearly violates the published guidelines or suffers from other practical problems then your beef is with the owner. You should contact the owner via email – and consider posting a "Needs Maintenance" or "Needs Archived" with an explanation.

 

If, on the other hand, a cache hide is functional, durable, serviceable and fully in compliance with the guidelines, yet you feel it somehow violates your personal aesthetic/taste/creativity/enjoyability preference, then your beef is with yourself – specifically, your own expectations. Nothing wrong with that; ANY aesthetic opinion is a valid opinion, but your only reasonable recourse in such case is to move on and leave the offending-yet-compliant cache to others who might enjoy it.

 

Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should. Playing to the lowest dominator of human behavior is seldom a good thing.

"Caches Team Cotati doesn’t enjoy" and "caches which, for practical reasons, are potentially harmful to the game" are not the same subset of caches. There may be some overlap between those two subsets, but it does not always follow that a cache is bad or should not exist merely because you don’t happen to enjoy it.

 

For example (and to stay on topic): Not all micro-size caches are bad due to practical reasons. Many (or in my experience, most) micros are functional, durable, serviceable and fully in compliance with the guidelines. If, however, you have identified "micro" as a feature you strongly dislike due to your own personal preference, then as Mushtang pointed out, you're in luck.

 

Please allow me to repeat my question, Team Cotati:

 

Why in the world ... would you CHOOSE to continue to allow micros to bother you? Why grumble and complain about something you’ve already removed from your life?

 

This is a serious question; I am extremely curious. Do you really enjoy complaining about things that need not bother you? If not, then what IS your reason?

 

I mean no offense. Honest. I only want to understand.

[+TrailGators]

KBI why don't you apply your own words to yourself?:

 

"Why in the world ... would you CHOOSE to continue to allow micros micro threads to bother you? Why grumble and complain?

 

This is a serious question; I am extremely curious. Do you really enjoy complaining about things that need not bother you? If not, then what IS your reason?

 

I mean no offense. Honest. I only want to understand."

Edited December 8, 2007 by TrailGators

[Mushtang]

KBI why don't you apply your own words to yourself?:

 

"Why in the world ... would you CHOOSE to continue to allow micros micro threads to bother you? Why grumble and complain?

 

This is a serious question; I am extremely curious. Do you really enjoy complaining about things that need not bother you? If not, then what IS your reason?

 

I mean no offense. Honest. I only want to understand."

Who said micro threads bothered KBI?

[+TrailGators]

KBI why don't you apply your own words to yourself?:

 

"Why in the world ... would you CHOOSE to continue to allow micros micro threads to bother you? Why grumble and complain?

 

This is a serious question; I am extremely curious. Do you really enjoy complaining about things that need not bother you? If not, then what IS your reason?

 

I mean no offense. Honest. I only want to understand."

Who said micro threads bothered KBI?

Neither of you guys can let people vent/complain. What's the big deal? They aren't hurting anyone and it's no sweat off your back. If you ignore things they tend to fade awaybut instead you guys throw gas on the fire.

[+KBI]

KBI why don't you apply your own words to yourself?:

 

"Why in the world ... would you CHOOSE to continue to allow micros micro threads to bother you? Why grumble and complain?

 

This is a serious question; I am extremely curious. Do you really enjoy complaining about things that need not bother you? If not, then what IS your reason?

 

I mean no offense. Honest. I only want to understand."

Fair enough.

 

"Why in the world ... would you CHOOSE to continue to allow micros micro threads to bother you? Why grumble and complain?

Your implied premise is incorrect. Micro threads do NOT bother me. I actually enjoy the debates.

 

The endless – and unnecessary – griping and complaining does not bother me. It baffles, bemuses, bewilders, confuses, puzzles and perplexes me, but it does not bother me. If anything, it entertains me.

 

Now, if it bothers YOU that I continue to defend my personal principles of tolerance and reason, as it certainly seems to, then why don’t you respond to my statements, premises and/or conclusions with something relevant – instead of ignoring the statements in favor of attacking the person who posts them?

 

It is difficult to understand another person’s point of view when that point of view has no apparent validity; it is even more difficult to understand that person’s point of view when they refuse to answer questions intended to clarify their reasoning.

 

As I stated, I am merely trying to understand. I asked Team Cotati why he complains unnecessarily. He ignored the question. I repeated the question, and I await his response.

 

I recently asked YOU where you stood on the matter. You ignored the question as well. Now that you have entered into this discussion between Team Cotati and me I must ask you to do me the honor of answering the obvious question: Whom do you agree with: Team Cotati, me or neither of us?

[+TrailGators]

KBI why don't you apply your own words to yourself?:

 

"Why in the world ... would you CHOOSE to continue to allow micros micro threads to bother you? Why grumble and complain?

 

This is a serious question; I am extremely curious. Do you really enjoy complaining about things that need not bother you? If not, then what IS your reason?

 

I mean no offense. Honest. I only want to understand."

Fair enough.

 

"Why in the world ... would you CHOOSE to continue to allow micros micro threads to bother you? Why grumble and complain?

Your implied premise is incorrect. Micro threads do NOT bother me. I actually enjoy the debates.

 

The endless – and unnecessary – griping and complaining does not bother me. It baffles, bemuses, bewilders, confuses, puzzles and perplexes me, but it does not bother me. If anything, it entertains me.

 

Now, if it bothers YOU that I continue to defend my personal principles of tolerance and reason, as it certainly seems to, then why don't you respond to my statements, premises and/or conclusions with something relevant – instead of ignoring the statements in favor of attacking the person who posts them?

 

It is difficult to understand another person's point of view when that point of view has no apparent validity; it is even more difficult to understand that person's point of view when they refuse to answer questions intended to clarify their reasoning.

 

As I stated, I am merely trying to understand. I asked Team Cotati why he complains unnecessarily. He ignored the question. I repeated the question, and I await his response.

 

I recently asked YOU where you stood on the matter. You ignored the question as well. Now that you have entered into this discussion between Team Cotati and me I must ask you to do me the honor of answering the obvious question: Whom do you agree with: Team Cotati, me or neither of us?

 

The same old arguments get very boring. In fact, they are more boring than the boring micros. Of course you are free to sound like a broken record if you choose to, but maybe you should try having a new approach. I think you could get a lot further by not being so confrontational.

[+KBI]

The same old arguments get very boring. In fact, they are more boring than the boring micros. Of course you are free to sound like a broken record if you choose to, but maybe you should try having a new approach. I think you could get a lot further by not being so confrontational.

And I could very accurately say the same about you.

 

You just got finished criticizing me for staying in a thread you claimed I disliked. According to your first two sentences you are now demonstrating the very same behavior you thought I was guilty of. Is it wrong when you incorrectly assume others are complaining about something they can easily avoid, but NOT wrong when you are provably doing it yourself, TG?

 

Again you attack me personally instead of countering my statements.

 

Why didn't you answer my question, TG? Was it unfair? Did you overlook it? Was it confusing?

 

I strongly suggest you stick to the topic. You might be interested to know that, at the encouragement of several moderators, I have dropped my voluntary rule against reporting people’s posts when circumstances seem to warrant intervention.

[+TrailGators]

The same old arguments get very boring. In fact, they are more boring than the boring micros. Of course you are free to sound like a broken record if you choose to, but maybe you should try having a new approach. I think you could get a lot further by not being so confrontational.

And I could very accurately say the same about you.

 

You just got finished criticizing me for staying in a thread you claimed I disliked. According to your first two sentences you are now demonstrating the very same behavior you thought I was guilty of. Is it wrong when you incorrectly assume others are complaining about something they can easily avoid, but NOT wrong when you are provably doing it yourself, TG?

 

Again you attack me personally instead of countering my statements.

 

Why didn't you answer my question, TG? Was it unfair? Did you overlook it? Was it confusing?

 

I strongly suggest you stick to the topic. You might be interested to know that, at the encouragement of several moderators, I have dropped my voluntary rule against reporting people's posts when circumstances seem to warrant intervention.

Read again. I was talking about your arguments:

The same old arguments get very boring. In fact, they are more boring than the boring micros.

Read my lips: I'm not going to engage your same old boring argument.....I am driving by that lamp post!

Edited December 8, 2007 by TrailGators

[+KBI]

I strongly suggest you stick to the topic. You might be interested to know that, at the encouragement of several moderators, I have dropped my voluntary rule against reporting people's posts when circumstances seem to warrant intervention.

Read again. I was talking about your arguments:

The same old arguments get very boring. In fact, they are more boring than the boring micros.

Read my lips: I'm not going to engage your same old boring argument.....I am driving by that lamp post!

Then why do you choose to continually complain about my posts instead of either (1) ignoring them, or (2) directly responding to them with reason and logic?

 

This post of yours doesn't sound like any "drive by and ignore" to me. In fact it sounds exactly like what you incorrectly accused me of doing.

 

I'm not going to engage your same old boring argument ....

That much is obvious, as you have once again proved yourself unwilling and/or unable to answer a simple and reasonable question intended to clarify your position on the matter.

 

If, as you have made clear, you have nothing relevant to add, can I assume you won't be making any more posts regarding my current discussion with Team Cotati?

Edited December 8, 2007 by KBI

[+The Leprechauns]

Have you two ever stumbled upon the private message feature in the forums?

[+tozainamboku]

Have you two ever stumbled upon the private message feature in the forums?

I find these

threads entertaining.

[+TrailGators]

Have you two ever stumbled upon the private message feature in the forums?

Lep, I'm done with them. I'm gonna drive by the lamp post micros of the forums from now on! I promise! Edited December 8, 2007 by TrailGators

[+TrailGators]

Have you two ever stumbled upon the private message feature in the forums?

I find these

threads entertaining.

I smashed mine....

[+KBI]

Have you two ever stumbled upon the private message feature in the forums?

Lep, I'm done with them. I'm gonna drive by the lamp post micros of the forums from now on! I promise!

Works for me!

 

When you come up with a way to prove your implied claim that "boring" is equal to "invalid," please let me know – I will be very interested.

 

Until then: auf Wiedersehen und frohe Weihnachten! (Until we meet again; Merry Christmas!)

[+TrailGators]

 

Merry Christmas!

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Your choice of phrase reminded me of a search for a rather famous cache in Jacksonville Florida. Here I am, extracting a cache from a lion's butt:

 

 

Wish I could have been there!

 

I think you could get a lot further by not being so confrontational.

 

I disagree. KBI's avatar says it all. He's in it for the confrontation. If he stopped being confrontational, then he'd fail to achieve the very thing that he is after.

[Mushtang]

Team Cotati: I hate micros and they all stink and none of them are worth finding

KBI: Why are you bothered by them when it's so easy to ignore them?

TrailGators: So KBI, why are YOU bothered by anti-micro threads?

KBI: I'm not, I'm enjoying them. But since you asked, are you bothered by micros?

TrailGators: STOP BEING CONFRONTATIONAL!!!

KBI: I was mearly asking folks why they feel the way they do. Why didn't you answer the question?

TrailGators: I'm driving by your lamp post.

KBI: Fine, Unless you reply with anything intelligent, I'll just debate Team Cotati without you.

TrailGators: (posts pictures of The Who)

[+KBI]

I think you could get a lot further by not being so confrontational.

I disagree. KBI's avatar says it all. He's in it for the confrontation.

If by "confrontation" you mean "enjoyment of a stimulating, entertaining and challenging debate," then I agree with you.

 

If by "confrontation" you mean "pretending to oppose people just to annoy them," then I respectfully disagree.

 

I am not here to troll; I am here to defend sincere and genuine personal principles. Tolerance, fairness and reason, in this case.

 

If I have offended you, or anyone else for that matter, that was not my intent. I merely seek to understand why some folks think the way they think about certain issues. Does that constitute "confrontation?"

[+Confucius' Cat]

I merely seek to understand why some folks think the way they think about certain issues. Does that constitute "confrontation?"

In this mealy mouthed, don't keep score, everybody wins all the time, nobody's values are any better than anyone else's, everybody gets a gold medal, don't lower her self esteem, gender neutral, nobody rides the bench, everybody plays, nobody cut from the team, tolerant of the intolerable, politically correct world we live in, YES. Any disagreement is "confrontational." In fact, it is "hate speech."

 

Now go to jail!

 

*mutter mutter*

first amendment.....free speech...

*mutter mutter*

Hogwash!

*mutter mutter under breath*

[+sbell111]

... We used to see these a lot. Then we stopped downloading micros. Just because we no longer hunt for them, in no way reduces their degenerative impact upon the game.

I generally don't like to throw a cacher's experience into a forum debate, but sometimes comments that people make appear to run contrary to reality and something must be said.

 

You have clearly defined yourself as someone who HATES micro caches and, in order to retain enjoyment of the game, stopped downloading them. You infer that every since you stopped downloading information regarding these micro caches, you have seen a change.

 

Please tell us when you made this decision? I ask this because a very quick look at your finds shows that you've found 7 micros (out of 19 total finds) since 11/1. Only six days ago, you found 5 micros (out of 7 total).

 

Based solely on your recent caching activity, I can only assume that you actually don't mind going after micros and take little effort to avoid them. As such, I'm having trouble reconciling your caching activity with your recent posts. The only answer that I am imagining is that you are trolling for attention. Since this is certainly not the reality of the situation, please explain the disconnect to us.

 

Thanks for your help.

Edited December 10, 2007 by sbell111

[+elmuyloco5]

Sbell: Interesting tidbit you found there.

 

Team Cotati: I'm asking these questions, not to start a fight, but to try to understand your logic.

 

1. How do you decide what is or isn't a micro?

 

2. Is it a micro because the owner has listed it as a micro, or do you go by a specific size? I know I have found that many owners of smalls and micros use the same containers but have different opinions on what to call the size of that container.

 

3. Do you designate anything that is too small for swag micro? I haven't personally seen one, but have read on here about many members who place ammo can sized caches with no swag to start with. I have also left many foreign coins and bills in magnetic keyholders, match tubes, and soda preform tubes.

 

Again, not to fight, but it seems to me that, as it is with most things in life, there is gray area around the whole "micro" designation and I don't see how one could decide decisively to hate ALL micros.

[+KBI]

Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should. Playing to the lowest dominator of human behavior is seldom a good thing. Walmart parking lot hides, hides behind memorials to the dead, hides in front of bussinesses, crammed between building dedication plaques and the brickwork and at other exposed muggle overrun locations is an embarrassment to the game, period.

None of the hide types you list are limited to micros.

 

Are we still talking about micros, or have we dropped the cache size discussion in favor of talking about appropriateness of placement?

 

Why in the world ... would you CHOOSE to continue to allow micros to bother you? Why grumble and complain about something you’ve already removed from your life?

 

This is a serious question; I am extremely curious. Do you really enjoy complaining about things that need not bother you? If not, then what IS your reason?

 

I mean no offense. Honest. I only want to understand.

 

... We used to see these a lot. Then we stopped downloading micros. Just because we no longer hunt for them, in no way reduces their degenerative impact upon the game.

Please tell us when you made this decision? I ask this because a very quick look at your finds shows that you've vound 7 micros (out of 19 total finds) since 11/1. Only six days ago, you found 5 micros (out of 7 total).

 

Based solely on your recent caching activity, I can only assume that you actually don't mind going after micros and take little effort to avoid them. As such, I'm having trouble reconciling your caching activity with your recent posts. The only answer that I am imagining is that you are trolling for attention. Since this is certainly not the reality of the situation, please explain the disconnect to us.

 

Team Cotati: I'm asking these questions, not to start a fight, but to try to understand your logic.

 

1. How do you decide what is or isn't a micro?

 

2. Is it a micro because the owner has listed it as a micro, or do you go by a specific size? I know I have found that many owners of smalls and micros use the same containers but have different opinions on what to call the size of that container.

 

3. Do you designate anything that is too small for swag micro? I haven't personally seen one, but have read on here about many members who place ammo can sized caches with no swag to start with. I have also left many foreign coins and bills in magnetic keyholders, match tubes, and soda preform tubes.

 

Again, not to fight, but it seems to me that, as it is with most things in life, there is gray area around the whole "micro" designation and I don't see how one could decide decisively to hate ALL micros.

Lots of fair, polite and reasonable questions.

 

All of them (so far) ignored, with no sign of any forthcoming response.

 

It would appear that this cacher has no interest in clarifying his debatable comments, defending his controversial claims or otherwise offering any rational explanation for his blanket objection to micros.

 

It is becoming a familiar and predictable cycle.

[+Too Tall John]

Lots of fair, polite and reasonable questions.

 

All of them (so far) ignored, with no sign of any forthcoming response.

 

It would appear that this cacher has no interest in clarifying his debatable comments, defending his controversial claims or otherwise offering any rational explanation for his blanket objection to micros.

 

It is becoming a familiar and predictable cycle.

Most of those questions were posted within the past 48 hours. Maybe they're out geocaching and haven't been here.

 

Wonder how many micros they found...

 

 

To clarify, I'm not questioning the questions, but your assumption that they are ignoring them because they haven't responded.

 

Just checked their profile. No caches logged yet this weekend, but 5 of their last 10 logs were on micros...

[+KBI]

Lots of fair, polite and reasonable questions.

 

All of them (so far) ignored, with no sign of any forthcoming response.

 

It would appear that this cacher has no interest in clarifying his debatable comments, defending his controversial claims or otherwise offering any rational explanation for his blanket objection to micros.

 

It is becoming a familiar and predictable cycle.

Most of those questions were posted within the past 48 hours. Maybe they're out geocaching and haven't been here.

 

Wonder how many micros they found...

 

 

To clarify, I'm not questioning the questions, but your assumption that they are ignoring them because they haven't responded.

 

Just checked their profile. No caches logged yet this weekend, but 5 of their last 10 logs were on micros...

You would have a valid point except for the fact that he is still very active in the forums. According to his profile (I checked after I read your post) he has made six posts in four different other threads, all of them posted after the most recent question was posed here. He is obviously browsing busily in the threads, and he obviously felt strongly about the things he expressed in this thread; it therefore seems very unlikely that he has not read any of the questions about his posts here.

 

It IS possible he just hasn’t gotten around to following up in this thread yet. I hope you’re right, because I'm curious to hear his responses. We’ll see.

 

Just checked their profile. No caches logged yet this weekend, but 5 of their last 10 logs were on micros...

Be careful making such observations. Someone might accuse you of being "confontational."

[+ke6n]

Just wanted to register my comment on the whole "Do I find micro's boring" topic.

 

I find them challenging! :-)

 

Ken

[+Too Tall John]

You would have a valid point except for the fact that he is still very active in the forums. According to his profile (I checked after I read your post) he has made six posts in four different other threads, all of them posted after the most recent question was posed here. He is obviously browsing busily in the threads, and he obviously felt strongly about the things he expressed in this thread; it therefore seems very unlikely that he has not read any of the questions about his posts here.

Just checked their profile. No caches logged yet this weekend, but 5 of their last 10 logs were on micros...

Be careful making such observations. Someone might accuse you of being "confontational."

I think many in these forums would take that label as a compliment.

 

As to the rest, well, I guess I was hoping for the best & didn't check for other posts.

 

Just to weigh in myself, here's my current thought on micros:

 

Some people put a whole lot of micros out, seemingly because it is the easiest thing to carry around with them when they are caching. They'll find a really cool spot & slap a micro down, when a regular sized cache could have taken that space. Considering the definition of "cache," I think a container that can hold more "stuff" than a log should be used when possible.

 

Still others will see a structure (ie guardrail) and are compelled to stuff a micro in the end of it. I was caching recently and as I read the cache description (yes, I try to read those ahead!) it said "This spot was just begging for a cache!" I drove up expecting to see something interesting. Nope. Busy road, smelly ditch, bunch of campaign signs. And a Private Property sign across the road. It wasn't a guardrail, but it was the next best thing. Bleagh...

 

I'm sounding pretty negative, aren't I? Sorry. Here's the stuff I like. I hunted a micro recently in a municipal park. The cache page had a dog theme. As I pulled into the park, the first thing I noticed was all the "No Dogs Allowed" signs. The irony was great. The hide location required a small container, along the lines of those magnetic nanos. Well, exactly one of those nanos. It was a great cache. A lot of urban caches are micros because it's really hard to find a lamppost skirt big enough to hide a regular cache under. Of course, LPCs are a whole other subject...

 

Basically, micros have their place, but should be placed with some thought, not just put out because it is what you have or just because you can.

[+KBI]

You would have a valid point except for the fact that he is still very active in the forums. According to his profile (I checked after I read your post) he has made six posts in four different other threads, all of them posted after the most recent question was posed here. He is obviously browsing busily in the threads, and he obviously felt strongly about the things he expressed in this thread; it therefore seems very unlikely that he has not read any of the questions about his posts here.

Just checked their profile. No caches logged yet this weekend, but 5 of their last 10 logs were on micros...

Be careful making such observations. Someone might accuse you of being "confontational."

I think many in these forums would take that label as a compliment.

I always take it as a compliment when someone switches to attacking me personally (or in the recent case, my avatar) instead of dealing directly with my statements. It's like they can't admit conceding a point yet can't stop posting either. I like to think of it as a "white flag with an attitude."

 

Some people put a whole lot of micros out, seemingly because it is the easiest thing to carry around with them when they are caching. They'll find a really cool spot & slap a micro down, when a regular sized cache could have taken that space. Considering the definition of "cache," I think a container that can hold more "stuff" than a log should be used when possible.

The little kid in me agrees with you – that a larger container is generally better than a micro where specific circumstances allow. The libertarian in me says otherwise, that the hider gets to put out whatever guideline-compliant container he likes regardless what "vocal others" think, and that if I really wanted something bigger in that spot I should have gotten there before he did. I consider the grown-up reasoning to be more valid than my inner five-year-old urges, and therefore feel that the latter philosophy is the fairer one.

 

…Still others will see a structure (ie guardrail) and are compelled to stuff a micro in the end of it. I was caching recently and as I read the cache description (yes, I try to read those ahead!) it said "This spot was just begging for a cache!" I drove up expecting to see something interesting. Nope. Busy road, smelly ditch, bunch of campaign signs. And a Private Property sign across the road. It wasn't a guardrail, but it was the next best thing. Bleagh...

Yup. There’s no accounting for taste. One man’s trash is another man’s enjoyable smiley.

 

Basically, micros have their place, but should be placed with some thought, not just put out because it is what you have or just because you can.

I hold myself to that standard as a hider, but I do not hold other hiders to that standard. I’m not so sure I can explain why, other than to fall back on my libertarian/fairness/tolerance principles and say that it's not my place to tell others what benign behavior they should or should not be allowed to enjoy.

Edited December 10, 2007 by KBI

[Mushtang]

Basically, micros have their place, but should be placed with some thought, not just put out because it is what you have or just because you can.

I hold myself to that standard as a hider, but I do not hold other hiders to that standard. I’m not so sure I can explain why...

Maybe it's because if you put out a micro you know how much thought you've put into it, and if you've thought about it enough and still want to put out a micro, then you're satisfied. Having seen several of your caches, and at least one of your micros, I can believe this to be true.

 

But seeing another person's micro you have no idea how much thought they put into it, so you're giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming it's possible that they put the best cache they could think to place?

[+elmuyloco5]

Team Cotati owns two micros as well that have both been placed since August of this year. Guess their hides must be different than everyone elses somehow.

[+KBI]

... But seeing another person's micro you have no idea how much thought they put into it, so you're giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming it's possible that they put the best cache they could think to place?

Close. It’s that, plus the fact that I have no business telling anyone that my personal preference makes me entitled to something different than whatever guideline-compliant cache they decided to create.

 

Your point and my point have this in common: Each cacher has his or her own reasons for how, where, when and why they place each cache. Sometimes those reasons are apparent; sometimes they are not. Anything I assume about their reasons is pure speculation.

 

Hiders hide what they think they should hide, not necessarily what I think they should hide. This is a beautiful thing, because when I am surprised it is almost always a pleasant surprise. If everyone hid caches the way I hide caches this hobby would collapse and die within hours due to lack of interest.

[+TexasGringo]

It is winter here...cold with snow. During this time I look for the easy caches...and most of them are micros.

 

Gardrail, lamp skirt...anything close to the heated car. I'll get the others in the summer.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Your implied premise is incorrect. Micro threads do NOT bother me. I actually enjoy the debates.

 

The endless – and unnecessary – griping and complaining does not bother me. It baffles, bemuses, bewilders, confuses, puzzles and perplexes me, but it does not bother me. If anything, it entertains me....

 

This is a good quote. KBI is on a roll.

Like KBI I enjoy the debates in these forums. They are fun and entertaining. I learn things. When they stop being fun I move on to the next fun debate.

 

The griping and complaining, unlike KBI does bother me a bit. Not so much the griping and complaining. We all deserve to vent. It's the entitlement behind a lot of it. "My world is so important that you can't do things that would cause me to to gripe and complain. I have a right to live in a world where I don't need to gripe and complain, and so my right trumps any freedomes that you would like to enjoy". Those people go on to make policy. They have no respect for others freedoms, and they have no tolerance. That would be ok if they could just stew in their own juices. But the sence of entitlement and outrage prompts them to action and their stupid rules creep into things like School District Policy, City Code, CC&Rs. Ugh. Then I have to fight them at every turn in the world.

Edited December 10, 2007 by Renegade Knight

[+Confucius' Cat]

Basically, micros have their place, but should be placed with some thought, not just put out because it is what you have or just because you can.

I hold myself to that standard as a hider, but I do not hold other hiders to that standard. I’m not so sure I can explain why, other than to fall back on my libertarian/fairness/tolerance principles and say that it's not my place to tell others what benign behavior they should or should not be allowed to enjoy.

I'm down with that.

One should always hold oneself to a higher standard than he holds others.

 

I would particularly note that your "policy" is only valid IMO with the affirmation of the bold text.

 

If one can express a valid reason how placing a micro adversely effects others besides their simple personal disdain thereof, then a valid case for their discontinuance could be made.

 

As it is however, the issue IS only one of opinion. Verily, this thread is by its OP definition nothing more than a forum of personal opinion. As such, all opinions are equally acceptable (even though they may not make a lick of sense), regardless of any factual or logical fallacies or inconsistencies inherent in the opinion.

 

So if someone wants to have a disingenuous opinion, the same libertarian/fairness/tolerance principles should be applied to their opinion as well.

 

Or is that too liberal?

[+geowizerd]

As it is however, the issue IS only one of opinion. Verily, this thread is by its OP definition nothing more than a forum of personal opinion. As such, all opinions are equally acceptable (even though they may not make a lick of sense), regardless of any factual or logical fallacies or inconsistencies inherent in the opinion.

 

Exactly! I didn't put up this topic to start a flame war or anything. Like I said in my first post, I am a newbie, and while I personally found the couple micros I've done to be pretty boring, and kind of pointless, I do believe that many people do enjoy them. I guess maybe I was looking for insights into what I may have been missing about them, and I actually have gained some newfound knowledge, both about what makes micros good (or bad), and sadly, that human nature is universal, and this forum is like just about every other one I've frequented, with politics and personal animosities rearing their ugly heads.

 

For me (not anyone else, JUST ME), it's not all about the hunt, or the find. It's about getting out for a walk in the outdoors - and it doesn't have to be a 5 mile trek - and finding the "treasure" at the end. I do like trading cool and unusual swag, and picking up bugs and helping them on their journey. A big number of finds and smileys is not important at all to me. Most days I've done one, maybe two per day. 25000 finds? That, and five bucks will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. But if that is what you're into, go for it!

 

I guess micros do have their place, especially in more urban areas. I live in a very rural area, in the Allegheny Highlands of PA. For me, it IS about the "treasure hunt", and enjoying the outdoors. This week on the Today Show, when a guest explained geocaching to Merideth Viera as using a GPSr to find a "hidden treasure" box of stuff to trade, she exclaimed "Wow! That's so cool!" If the guest would have told her that it was usung a GPSr to find a rolled up scrap of paper to sign, I doubt her reaction would have been the same. I don't personally have anything against micros, the people who set them, or those that like to find them. And I will probably do one from time to time. Just like crime dramas... They're not really my cup of tea, but if there's nothing else on, I may watch one once in a while.

[+sbell111]

... This week on the Today Show, when a guest explained geocaching to Merideth Viera as using a GPSr to find a "hidden treasure" box of stuff to trade, she exclaimed "Wow! That's so cool!" If the guest would have told her that it was usung a GPSr to find a rolled up scrap of paper to sign, I doubt her reaction would have been the same. ...

It's totally fine that you don't care for micros. I am certainly not trying to invalidate your opinion. That being said, you wouldn't have to ever mention that you don't care for micros because your animosity towards them are clear. I have no doubt that if you explained looking for micros to someone who knew nothing about the game that the person would think it was stupid. However, I bet that the same person would likely have a different reaction if that aspect of the game was described by someone who enjoys micros.

[+Team Cotati]

... This week on the Today Show, when a guest explained geocaching to Merideth Viera as using a GPSr to find a "hidden treasure" box of stuff to trade, she exclaimed "Wow! That's so cool!" If the guest would have told her that it was usung a GPSr to find a rolled up scrap of paper to sign, I doubt her reaction would have been the same. ...

It's totally fine that you don't care for micros. I am certainly not trying to invalidate your opinion. That being said, you wouldn't have to ever mention that you don't care for micros because your animosity towards them are clear. I have no doubt that if you explained looking for micros to someone who knew nothing about the game that the person would think it was stupid. However, I bet that the same person would likely have a different reaction if that aspect of the game was described by someone who enjoys micros.

 

Not if they are told the whole truth, they won't.

[Mushtang]

... This week on the Today Show, when a guest explained geocaching to Merideth Viera as using a GPSr to find a "hidden treasure" box of stuff to trade, she exclaimed "Wow! That's so cool!" If the guest would have told her that it was usung a GPSr to find a rolled up scrap of paper to sign, I doubt her reaction would have been the same. ...

It's totally fine that you don't care for micros. I am certainly not trying to invalidate your opinion. That being said, you wouldn't have to ever mention that you don't care for micros because your animosity towards them are clear. I have no doubt that if you explained looking for micros to someone who knew nothing about the game that the person would think it was stupid. However, I bet that the same person would likely have a different reaction if that aspect of the game was described by someone who enjoys micros.

 

Not if they are told the whole truth, they won't.

What would you consider the "whole truth"?

[+geowizerd]

... This week on the Today Show, when a guest explained geocaching to Merideth Viera as using a GPSr to find a "hidden treasure" box of stuff to trade, she exclaimed "Wow! That's so cool!" If the guest would have told her that it was usung a GPSr to find a rolled up scrap of paper to sign, I doubt her reaction would have been the same. ...

It's totally fine that you don't care for micros. I am certainly not trying to invalidate your opinion. That being said, you wouldn't have to ever mention that you don't care for micros because your animosity towards them are clear. I have no doubt that if you explained looking for micros to someone who knew nothing about the game that the person would think it was stupid. However, I bet that the same person would likely have a different reaction if that aspect of the game was described by someone who enjoys micros.

 

I don't have the least bit of animosity towards them. Do I find them boring? Yes. Do I find them unsatisfying? Yep. But go back to my TV analogy; crime dramas aren't my cup of tea in that department, but I don't have "anamosity' toward them. I don't want to see them all taken off the air. They are perfectly good entertainment for many people who like them, I'm just not one of them. Same with micros. I'm not suggesting that they all be removed, or that people be stopped from placing them. Seems like that may be the sentiment of a few people here, but not me. I understand (or have come to understand) there are many here that really enjoy them, and that's great. But taking offense with someone just because they don't like the same things as you is just plain lunacy.

 

Happy caching, no matter what kind you enjoy! BTW, when there is a pile of snow in the woods over the winter, I just may hit a few myself to pass the time. Who knows, maybe I'll become a convert!

[+sbell111]

... This week on the Today Show, when a guest explained geocaching to Merideth Viera as using a GPSr to find a "hidden treasure" box of stuff to trade, she exclaimed "Wow! That's so cool!" If the guest would have told her that it was usung a GPSr to find a rolled up scrap of paper to sign, I doubt her reaction would have been the same. ...

It's totally fine that you don't care for micros. I am certainly not trying to invalidate your opinion. That being said, you wouldn't have to ever mention that you don't care for micros because your animosity towards them are clear. I have no doubt that if you explained looking for micros to someone who knew nothing about the game that the person would think it was stupid. However, I bet that the same person would likely have a different reaction if that aspect of the game was described by someone who enjoys micros.

Not if they are told the whole truth, they won't.

What would you consider the "whole truth"?

I would consider the whole truth to be when someone doesn't troll a thread with comments that are found to be disingenuous, not explain oneself once this apparent trolling is pointed out, and to later return to the thread as if nothing happened. Edited December 14, 2007 by sbell111

[+ReadyOrNot]

Do I find micros boring? How's this for an answer: I find boring micros boring.. I find good micros good and excellent micros excellent.

 

If you read this thread, you'll find some exciting news. A way for geocachers to give caches "Awards". Best dressed, etc. etc. and then be able to search for caches based on those awards. Gone will be the days of filtering out all micros because 85% of them are lame. We will be able to find the "GOOD" ones based on merit, not based on cache profiling (which is illegal in most states by the way).

 

This is truely a happy day for geocaching.

[+fairyhoney]

I like micros

[+9Key]

... This week on the Today Show, when a guest explained geocaching to Merideth Viera as using a GPSr to find a "hidden treasure" box of stuff to trade, she exclaimed "Wow! That's so cool!" If the guest would have told her that it was usung a GPSr to find a rolled up scrap of paper to sign, I doubt her reaction would have been the same. ...

It's totally fine that you don't care for micros. I am certainly not trying to invalidate your opinion. That being said, you wouldn't have to ever mention that you don't care for micros because your animosity towards them are clear. I have no doubt that if you explained looking for micros to someone who knew nothing about the game that the person would think it was stupid. However, I bet that the same person would likely have a different reaction if that aspect of the game was described by someone who enjoys micros.

Not if they are told the whole truth, they won't.

What would you consider the "whole truth"?

I would consider the whole truth to be when someone doesn't troll a thread with comments that are found to be disingenouos, not explain oneself once this apparent trolling is pointed out, and to later return to the thread as if nothing happened.

Zing~!

[+Team Cotati]

I like micros

 

I don't like micros.

[+Footpower]

I do like the idea of bringing back virtuals.

 

Micros can be OK if they are not in high muggle areas.

 

I really do not like nano type of caches.

[+Team Cotati]

I do like the idea of bringing back virtuals.

 

Micros can be OK if they are not in high muggle areas.

 

I really do not like nano type of caches.

 

I totally agree. However "being in high muggle" areas is only one of the things wrong with micros.

And trust me, "boring" doesn't even make my list.

[+Footpower]

Most of the time I find micros irritating and driving me crazy!

Edited December 14, 2007 by CampDavid

[+sgtbill572]

I think the environment should decide the cache size. I have hidden in NYC and need micros to work. Obviously some people like micros because I have over 100 finds in 6 months on one cache. Many peolpe have said it is their only find in the country. But if you have acres of woodland (instead of high muggle corners) make it woth the while to go to. The standard shouldn't be the size but the effort.(Urban hiding is hard)

[+Confucius' Cat]

... This week on the Today Show, when a guest explained geocaching to Merideth Viera as using a GPSr to find a "hidden treasure" box of stuff to trade, she exclaimed "Wow! That's so cool!" If the guest would have told her that it was usung a GPSr to find a rolled up scrap of paper to sign, I doubt her reaction would have been the same. ...

It's totally fine that you don't care for micros. I am certainly not trying to invalidate your opinion. That being said, you wouldn't have to ever mention that you don't care for micros because your animosity towards them are clear. I have no doubt that if you explained looking for micros to someone who knew nothing about the game that the person would think it was stupid. However, I bet that the same person would likely have a different reaction if that aspect of the game was described by someone who enjoys micros.

Exactly!

 

What would you consider the "whole truth"?

The "whole truth" IMO is *talking to the proverbial TV anchor*:

 

Reporter: "Do you always find cool stuff in the caches?"

 

Cacher: "Really, the trading thing isn't all that important. Actually the 'treasure' is seldom really worth anything... a lot of times it is just Dollar store toys, or sliced golf balls, or even acorns and pine cones that previous finders have picked up off the ground. In my opinion, the real value of the 'treasure' is when I find something unusual that I can use in a scrapbook or a collection to remember the day. Trading is more exciting to the kids though. They like to trade even if it is just 'junk'."

 

Reporter: "So why would you want to hunt 'treasure' that is pretty much worthless? You are an adult, couldn't you just go to the dollar store and buy junk toys if you want them?"

 

Cacher: "I really like a challenging hunt. I, like many in the sport, like to hide and seek things that are hidden in unique ways, some of which are in plain sight where thousands of people pass by without noticing."

 

"For these folks, there doesn't need to be anything to trade. The goal for them is simply to sign a piece of paper to prove they found it and put it back like it was without giving away the game."

 

"These are typically called 'micros' because they are usually very small. I have found many of these and I particularly like this part of the game because it is interesting to see how someone can hide something so well, and then how good I am at finding what the general public (sometimes literally) walks right over without noticing."

 

"I have found some that have been hidden right on the 'public square' for several years. It is always so cool to see how many people have found it and yet it remains there despite all the comings and goings over the years."

 

"Then too, sometimes the hike and the view are so great, or there is something so interesting at the cache location that I don't even care what kind of box is there. I sign the log in gratitude for the person who found the place and thought it was so worthy of my attention that he put a cache there so i could find it- the view that is... It really wouldn't matter to me if there wasn't even a paper to sign.

 

Reporter: "How easy are these caches to find?"

 

Cacher: "It all depends. Some are real easy and some are HORRIBLY difficult. That is what i like about some micros... sometimes they are hidden so well that even a veteran cacher like myself will have to come back again and again and look till I'm ready to 'pull my hair out', then I finally find it and do the 'doh, I could have had a V8 head slap!' when it was 'right there' all along- in the LAST place I would look (lol)"

 

Reporter: "So I guess there is something in this sport for everyone then?"

 

Cacher: "That's right. There are trading caches for those who like to trade. there are simple caches for those who just enjoy getting out and finding another cache to increase their find count. There are caches that lead the seeker to really cool places. There are caches that are hidden in plain sight. There are caches for beginners. There are caches that are hidden so well that they challenge even the most experienced cachers.

 

It is all in how you "spin" it. A person who likes something gives a great review, a person who does not will give a crap review. So it goes.

[+KBI]

Basically, micros have their place, but should be placed with some thought, not just put out because it is what you have or just because you can.

I hold myself to that standard as a hider, but I do not hold other hiders to that standard. I’m not so sure I can explain why, other than to fall back on my libertarian/fairness/tolerance principles and say that it's not my place to tell others what benign behavior they should or should not be allowed to enjoy.

I'm down with that.

One should always hold oneself to a higher standard than he holds others.

 

I would particularly note that your "policy" is only valid IMO with the affirmation of the bold text.

 

If one can express a valid reason how placing a micro adversely effects others besides their simple personal disdain thereof, then a valid case for their discontinuance could be made.

 

As it is however, the issue IS only one of opinion. Verily, this thread is by its OP definition nothing more than a forum of personal opinion. As such, all opinions are equally acceptable (even though they may not make a lick of sense), regardless of any factual or logical fallacies or inconsistencies inherent in the opinion.

 

So if someone wants to have a disingenuous opinion, the same libertarian/fairness/tolerance principles should be applied to their opinion as well.

 

Or is that too liberal?

Not at all. I fully concur with your analysis.

 

As you point out: in order to be postable one's opinion needn't be defendable; it need only be type-able.

 

I enjoy wacky opinions in much the same way I enjoy kitschy caches. Each opinion, just like each cache, is worth something. No opinion or cache is completely worthless – at the very least it can always serve as a bad example.

[+KBI]

It is all in how you "spin" it. A person who likes something gives a great review, a person who does not will give a crap review. So it goes.

Well done – excellent! I really enjoyed reading that post, CC!