Females - Solo Caching, how to stay safe

[+flask]

 

Ok, you win, I promise to never ever protect you no matter what might happen. Ever.

BTW, exactly what makes a mushroom...."cool"?

 

when i am alone, i am my own protection. with friends, we have each other's backs. of course my friends tend to be reckless as well. they are strong and generous. they share what they have. they're the kind of people who'd come and pick you up in the middle of the night if you locked yourself out of the car.

 

they are smart, funny, and fierce.

 

lots of mushrooms are cool. some are cool because they're good to eat (yes, i also eat mushrooms i pick in the wild). today's mushroom was cool because it was not yet fully open and was taking on a kind of spherical form at the root of of a tree. it was some variety of polypore, meaning it has lots of little tubes on the bottom, instead of gills. bigger than a grapefruit, smaller than a basketball. the outer layer was velvety and spongy, and mustard-colored. the inside where broken, chlorine green.

 

i didn't bother to try to make an ID on it; i just poked it a little and went on my way. i was busy; i had stuff to go jump off of.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Ok, ok....I admit it, I was wrong. Not only could it get more halarious, it in fact did.

do you ever meet someone and know that they don't realize that they ARE the joke?

 

keep laughing, pal. we're laughing with at you.

 

your quaint little ideas about women and danger are, i suspect, somehow related to your avatar which somehow seems to stop just before it gets to what i assume are the little teeny bits.

 

no, seriously. most of the idiotic rhetoric about women being unprotected in "this day and age" (yikes! it's such a big, bad world out there!) comes not from women, but from men. really, boys, are you so afraid of what will happen if you have to re-examine your role as our protectors?

 

i can't speak for the rest of us over here in the girls' locker room, but i don't need protecting.

 

when you have been hit by lightning, run over by a truck, stalked by a predator, been covered with chemical burns, had anaphylaxis, strider reaction, stevens-johnson syndrome, been threatened by moose, lost on a firing range, descended a class V rapid in a two-man raft, gone over handlebars at 30 MPH AND you know how to spell "hilarious", you may speak to me about how much protection i need.

 

until such time, little man, you may keep laughing, but you may not come into my presence. i have no patience for such as you.

 

you can go over there and look for intruders. me, i'm too busy. i spent my afternoon watching out for loose gravel on the four-cross course. and i saw a really cool mushroom. and i managed not to run over a cute little snake. i talked to strangers. i changed clothes in a parking lot. i had a nap in a public building.

 

i go where i please. i will probably die young, but i'll have a really great time between now and then. my body will simply wear out long before some imaginary assailant gets me.

 

i am not afraid.

Flask, I feel that this is a truly wonderful and realistic -- and honest -- post; thank you for taking the time and care to write it! It is also humorous as all heck, as is true of most writing which comes from the Heart and from Spirit. Thank you. BTW, the amount of sexism -- as well as grandiose fear of being alive -- shown by a few posters here in this thread is TRULY amazing! Thank you again for being present on this forum and for taking the time to share your observations -- I appreciate it.

[+Team Cotati]

Ok, ok....I admit it, I was wrong. Not only could it get more halarious, it in fact did.

do you ever meet someone and know that they don't realize that they ARE the joke?

 

keep laughing, pal. we're laughing with at you.

 

your quaint little ideas about women and danger are, i suspect, somehow related to your avatar which somehow seems to stop just before it gets to what i assume are the little teeny bits.

 

no, seriously. most of the idiotic rhetoric about women being unprotected in "this day and age" (yikes! it's such a big, bad world out there!) comes not from women, but from men. really, boys, are you so afraid of what will happen if you have to re-examine your role as our protectors?

 

i can't speak for the rest of us over here in the girls' locker room, but i don't need protecting.

 

when you have been hit by lightning, run over by a truck, stalked by a predator, been covered with chemical burns, had anaphylaxis, strider reaction, stevens-johnson syndrome, been threatened by moose, lost on a firing range, descended a class V rapid in a two-man raft, gone over handlebars at 30 MPH AND you know how to spell "hilarious", you may speak to me about how much protection i need.

 

until such time, little man, you may keep laughing, but you may not come into my presence. i have no patience for such as you.

 

you can go over there and look for intruders. me, i'm too busy. i spent my afternoon watching out for loose gravel on the four-cross course. and i saw a really cool mushroom. and i managed not to run over a cute little snake. i talked to strangers. i changed clothes in a parking lot. i had a nap in a public building.

 

i go where i please. i will probably die young, but i'll have a really great time between now and then. my body will simply wear out long before some imaginary assailant gets me.

 

i am not afraid.

Flask, I feel that this is a truly wonderful and realistic -- and honest -- post; thank you for taking the time and care to write it! It is also humorous as all heck, as is true of most writing which comes from the Heart and from Spirit. Thank you. BTW, the amount of sexism -- as well as grandiose fear of being alive -- shown by a few posters here in this thread is TRULY amazing! Thank you again for being present on this forum and for taking the time to share your observations -- I appreciate it.

 

I appreciate it also. Thank you. You're sweet. And wonderful.

Edited August 27, 2007 by Team Cotati

[+Ambrosia]

I don't know why I keep coming into this thread.

[+zazth]

Hmmm Interesting.... My husband laughed all the way through this topic as he swears I am the protector of the house!

I have been known to change clothes in parking lots/garages. I often leave on solo cache runs, leave the cell phone in the car and tell no one where I am going other than I am caching. Why bother? I'll make it or I won't. Why spend time worrying about what MIGHT happen?

I've often been approached by strangers but rarely challenged. I've had worse things happen to me at the hands of family members than any stranger.

I'd rather spend time planning how I will spend my fortune when I hit the lottery than worry about all the bad things that could happen.

[+Redcap the Druid]

I always feel more comfortable with one of my three girls; my dog, my .45 revolver (sorry for the gun mention), or my wife. Any one of those three things increases my survivability immensely. My gun saved me from a grizzly in 2002 (a shot in the air stopped its charge and sent her running), my dog saved me from a cougar in 1997(she spotted it on the rocks above me and growled out a warning), and my wife has lovingly finished off a drunk for me in an alley

 

I do a lot of solo hiking in the Teton/Yellowstone ecosystem so wildlife is usually a bigger concern than humans, but I still feel wary when I encounter strangers. Often I will carry a walking stick when one of my three girls isn't present, and after the cougar incident I will never wear earphones again outside the safety of town.

 

I truly do feel for those of you in high crime areas. Don't get me wrong, it happens here in Idaho, but it does so EXTREMELY rarely. I have spent time in big cities and it helped me learn some street smarts, but out here it is easy to forget to watch your back when you leave the wilderness. Some interesting posts here, even the uber-macho ones

 

May all your caches be safe ones.

[+Team Cotati]

I always feel more comfortable with one of my three girls; my dog, my .45 revolver (sorry for the gun mention), or my wife. Any one of those three things increases my survivability immensely. My gun saved me from a grizzly in 2002 (a shot in the air stopped its charge and sent her running), my dog saved me from a cougar in 1997(she spotted it on the rocks above me and growled out a warning), and my wife has lovingly finished off a drunk for me in an alley

 

I do a lot of solo hiking in the Teton/Yellowstone ecosystem so wildlife is usually a bigger concern than humans, but I still feel wary when I encounter strangers. Often I will carry a walking stick when one of my three girls isn't present, and after the cougar incident I will never wear earphones again outside the safety of town.

 

I truly do feel for those of you in high crime areas. Don't get me wrong, it happens here in Idaho, but it does so EXTREMELY rarely. I have spent time in big cities and it helped me learn some street smarts, but out here it is easy to forget to watch your back when you leave the wilderness. Some interesting posts here, even the uber-macho ones

 

May all your caches be safe ones.

 

Perhaps I could introduce you to someone..............................

[+Mule Ears]

Been reluctant to post to this thread, as it almost immediately veered away from the OP's question into some bizarre stuff. And as for "sexist" lines of commentary, doesn't the title of the posting set the stage for that ("Females - Solo Caching, how to stay safe")?

 

Anyhow, an excellent read on the subject of avoiding trouble while living life is The Gift of Fear (Survival Signals that Protect Us from Violence). The irony of the title is that, if you follow the author's recommendations to trust your instincts, you'll experience less fear and anxiety. It's OK to be open, trusting, generous and compassionate, but when a person or situation makes the hairs on the back of your neck rise, it's time to pay attention. And maybe get out of Dodge. The advice is gender-neutral.

 

I'm a good-sized, fit alpha male who has no experience in hand-to-hand combat since my formative years. If a potential aggressor wants to compete in track-and-field, I've got him beat. Otherwise, I'm better off listening to my gut and giving trouble a wide berth. If it's unavoidable, I'm all in. But most trouble is supremely avoidable.

[+Renegade Knight]

Hmmm Interesting.... My husband laughed all the way through this topic as he swears I am the protector of the house!

I have been known to change clothes in parking lots/garages. I often leave on solo cache runs, leave the cell phone in the car and tell no one where I am going other than I am caching. Why bother? I'll make it or I won't. Why spend time worrying about what MIGHT happen?

I've often been approached by strangers but rarely challenged. I've had worse things happen to me at the hands of family members than any stranger.

I'd rather spend time planning how I will spend my fortune when I hit the lottery than worry about all the bad things that could happen.

 

You are right about one thing. Family members are much more likey to do harm. The rest just tells me how lucky you are. Mule Ears has the right idea. So many other posts completly miss the point and are clueless. It's not about living in fear.

 

 

Someone can walk down a street at night with money hanging out of their pockets, or they can walk down the street and keep the money discrete. Either way they can enjoy the night sounds, the stars, the smell of asphalt and the glow of neon. Which one is more likely to get them mugged? Why is it that some people insist that life is better somehow if they hang the money out? It's not better, less fearful or anything else except more stupid. Unless they need the rush of knowing they are "living on the edge". A lot of people do.

[+mertat]

Thank you Mule Ears for steering this back on track. I almost quit reading this thread because it did seem to degenerate into weirdness. And thanks for posting the book information – looks like something I’ll be buying soon.

 

Since I’m female and I mostly cache alone, I’ll go ahead and post how I approach my caching. First and foremost, as others have said, I always, always, always listen to my gut. If I’m uncomfortable, I abort the hunt.

 

I do carry pepper spray and make sure that it’s easily accessible. No sense in having it if it’s in my backpack where I can’t get to it in a hurry.

 

I also leave an itinerary at home and with a friend or relative. Since my caching style is rather fluid, I don’t necessarily hit all the caches on the list or in the order they are on the list. So I call my answering machine and leave a message detailing arrival time and cache name. When I’m done, I call and leave another message on my answering machine with my departure time and next cache I plan to do. The person I’ve left my itinerary with knows I do this. When I get home, that person gets a phone call.

 

Edited to add: In my caching area, we also have an "emergency caching phone number". This is someone who has volunteered to field calls and get appropriate help to you if you are in need. That number is programmed into my phone and is also part of the information included in my itinerary.

Edited August 27, 2007 by mertat

[+Team Cotati]

"Unless they need the rush of knowing they are "living on the edge". A most astute observation.

For example Mrs. Team Cotati aka My Sweetie Pie goes on a walk everyday during her lunch hour. Some sections of the path are semi-secluded. Sweetie Pie and I have discussed the wisdom of this at length. Sweetie Pie has convinced me that the 'big stick' that she carries offers sufficient deterent that I think that she is relatively safe. However I'd rather that she walk with a friend from work, but since none are interested, we have made the decision that the risk in this instance does not out weigh the reward of improved health from getting daily exercise. We do not "live in fear" as some would have you believe. We also do not live in fantasy land.

[+Team Cotati]

Unfortunately it is my belief that this: "I also leave an itinerary at home and with a friend or relative. Since my caching style is rather fluid, I don’t necessarily hit all the caches on the list or in the order they are on the list. So I call my answering machine and leave a message detailing arrival time and cache name. When I’m done, I call and leave another message on my answering machine with my departure time and next cache I plan to do. The person I’ve left my itinerary with knows I do this. When I get home, that person gets a phone call."

 

Realistically serves only one purpose: Aiding friends and local authorities 'after the fact'. That doesn't mean that it is a 'bad' idea though. It just means that it doesn't really offer any protection or deterrent. On the other hand, that pepper spray thing might actually give you valuable seconds to make an escape should that be necessary. Like you, Sweetie Pie always always always maintains an awareness of the surroundings so that she might react accordingly. She does not however behave as though she is some 'Bonic Woman'

Edited August 27, 2007 by Team Cotati

[+mertat]

Since I'm really more concerned about getting hurt and being unable to get back to my car, my itinerary method works just fine.

[+sbell111]

I suspect that the naked guy's world view is just different than the rest of ours because he either has been personally affected by violent crime or because his local area is especially crime-ridden.

 

If my wife told me that she was going to take a walk and I couldn't come, my response would be 'See you in a little while', but that's because we live in a somewhat crime-free town.

Edited August 27, 2007 by sbell111

[+Team Cotati]

"It's OK to be open, trusting, generous and compassionate, but when a person or situation makes the hairs on the back of your neck rise, it's time to pay attention. And maybe get out of Dodge. The advice is gender-neutral."

 

Most excellent advice. Thank you.

[+Team Cotati]

I suspect that the naked guy's world view is just different that the rest of ours because he either has been personally affected by violent crime or because his local area is especially crime-ridden.

 

If my wife told me that she was going to take a walk and I couldn't come, my response would be 'See you in a little while', but that's because we live in a somewhat crime-free town.

 

You'll be glad to know that neither of your assumptions are accurate. Don't ever leave your "somewhat" crime free town? Or when and if you ever do, you behave as if nothing is different? I think that type of behavior ought be the subject of a re-think or two.

Edited August 27, 2007 by Team Cotati

[+sbell111]

... or else he could possibly be just a tad overly paranoid maybe.

[+Team Cotati]

... or else he could possibly be just a tad overly paranoid maybe.

 

Three guesses for a quarter.

[+sbell111]

You'll be glad to know that neither of your assumptions are accurate. Don't ever leave your "somewhat" crime free town? Or when and if you ever do, you behave as if nothing is different?

I frequently travel all over the country and beyond, including, but not limited to NYC or LA. I don't necessarily shy away from any of the 'bad' areas of the towns I am in, but I'm smart about those visits. Also, my spidey sense is calibrated pretty well, in my opinion.

 

As far as your second question is concerned, I pretty much do behave the same no matter where in the world I am visiting. I pay attention to my surroundings. I remain prepared to defend myself. I listen to my spidey sense.

 

... or else he could possibly be just a tad overly paranoid maybe.

Three guesses for a quarter.

If you are trying to crack wise, you should make your references more clear. Vague snarkiness is typically ignored. Edited August 27, 2007 by sbell111

[+sbell111]

<Deleted duplicate post>

Edited August 27, 2007 by sbell111

[+Team Cotati]

You'll be glad to know that neither of your assumptions are accurate. Don't ever leave your "somewhat" crime free town? Or when and if you ever do, you behave as if nothing is different?

I frequently travel all over the country and beyond, including, but not limited to NYC or LA. I don't necessarily shy away from any of the 'bad' areas of the towns I am in, but I'm smart about those visits. Also, my spidey sense is calibrated pretty well, in my opinion.

 

As far as your second question is concerned, I pretty much do behave the same no matter where in the world I am visiting. I pay attention to my surroundings. I remain prepared to defend myself. I listen to my spidey sense.

 

Being just as vigilant and prepared for action when out for a leisurely stroll in "somewhat crime free USA" whereever that might be as you would be in South Central LA at 3AM changing a flat tire does after all make perfect sense to me. Please do not ignore me, that hurts my feelings.

Edited August 27, 2007 by Team Cotati

[+sbell111]

You'll be glad to know that neither of your assumptions are accurate. Don't ever leave your "somewhat" crime free town? Or when and if you ever do, you behave as if nothing is different?

I frequently travel all over the country and beyond, including, but not limited to NYC or LA. I don't necessarily shy away from any of the 'bad' areas of the towns I am in, but I'm smart about those visits. Also, my spidey sense is calibrated pretty well, in my opinion.

 

As far as your second question is concerned, I pretty much do behave the same no matter where in the world I am visiting. I pay attention to my surroundings. I remain prepared to defend myself. I listen to my spidey sense.

 

Being just as vigilant and prepared for action in "crime free USA" whereever that might be as you would be in South Central LA at 3AM changing a flat tire does after all make perfect sense to me.

Please reread my post. There's no such thing as 'crime-free'. Given that 'crime-free' doesn't exist, it makes sense to always be prepared for the worst, doesn't it?

 

Interestingly, the last time that I was in SC LA, it was about 3am. I didn't have a car, however. I was taking a walk.

[+Team Cotati]

You'll be glad to know that neither of your assumptions are accurate. Don't ever leave your "somewhat" crime free town? Or when and if you ever do, you behave as if nothing is different?

I frequently travel all over the country and beyond, including, but not limited to NYC or LA. I don't necessarily shy away from any of the 'bad' areas of the towns I am in, but I'm smart about those visits. Also, my spidey sense is calibrated pretty well, in my opinion.

 

As far as your second question is concerned, I pretty much do behave the same no matter where in the world I am visiting. I pay attention to my surroundings. I remain prepared to defend myself. I listen to my spidey sense.

 

Being just as vigilant and prepared for action in "crime free USA" whereever that might be as you would be in South Central LA at 3AM changing a flat tire does after all make perfect sense to me.

Please reread my post. There's no such thing as 'crime-free'. Given that 'crime-free' doesn't exist, it makes sense to always be prepared for the worst, doesn't it?

 

Interestingly, the last time that I was in SC LA, it was about 3am. I didn't have a car, however. I was taking a walk.

 

How about "somewhat"?

 

And no, it doesn't. Unless and until you have a realistic view of what "the worst" might in fact be.

To profer that realistically the likely hood of "the worst" outcomes in Somewhatville and South Central LA are even close to being equal only serves to demonstrate a significant fear of acknowledging the facts.

Edited August 27, 2007 by Team Cotati

[+sbell111]

You'll be glad to know that neither of your assumptions are accurate. Don't ever leave your "somewhat" crime free town? Or when and if you ever do, you behave as if nothing is different?

I frequently travel all over the country and beyond, including, but not limited to NYC or LA. I don't necessarily shy away from any of the 'bad' areas of the towns I am in, but I'm smart about those visits. Also, my spidey sense is calibrated pretty well, in my opinion.

 

As far as your second question is concerned, I pretty much do behave the same no matter where in the world I am visiting. I pay attention to my surroundings. I remain prepared to defend myself. I listen to my spidey sense.

Being just as vigilant and prepared for action in "crime free USA" whereever that might be as you would be in South Central LA at 3AM changing a flat tire does after all make perfect sense to me.

Please reread my post. There's no such thing as 'crime-free'. Given that 'crime-free' doesn't exist, it makes sense to always be prepared for the worst, doesn't it?

 

Interestingly, the last time that I was in SC LA, it was about 3am. I didn't have a car, however. I was taking a walk.

How about "somewhat"?

 

And no, it doesn't. Unless and until you have a realistic view of what "the worst" might in fact be.

Your post doesn't make sense, and I fear that we are dragging this thread too far off topic.

 

Suffice it to say that I believe that no matter who or where you are, you should always do the following:

• Pay attention to your surroundings
  
• Be prepared to defend yourself
  
• Listen to your 'spidey sense'
  

[+Team Cotati]

You'll be glad to know that neither of your assumptions are accurate. Don't ever leave your "somewhat" crime free town? Or when and if you ever do, you behave as if nothing is different?

I frequently travel all over the country and beyond, including, but not limited to NYC or LA. I don't necessarily shy away from any of the 'bad' areas of the towns I am in, but I'm smart about those visits. Also, my spidey sense is calibrated pretty well, in my opinion.

 

As far as your second question is concerned, I pretty much do behave the same no matter where in the world I am visiting. I pay attention to my surroundings. I remain prepared to defend myself. I listen to my spidey sense.

Being just as vigilant and prepared for action in "crime free USA" whereever that might be as you would be in South Central LA at 3AM changing a flat tire does after all make perfect sense to me.

Please reread my post. There's no such thing as 'crime-free'. Given that 'crime-free' doesn't exist, it makes sense to always be prepared for the worst, doesn't it?

 

Interestingly, the last time that I was in SC LA, it was about 3am. I didn't have a car, however. I was taking a walk.

How about "somewhat"?

 

And no, it doesn't. Unless and until you have a realistic view of what "the worst" might in fact be.

Your post doesn't make sense, and I fear that we are dragging this thread too far off topic.

 

Suffice it to say that I believe that no matter who or where you are, you should always do the following:

• Pay attention to your surroundings
  
• Be prepared to defend yourself
  
• Listen to your 'spidey sense'
  

 

"we"? And the extent to which you do those things ought to be very different. You know, to match the surroundings and the likelyhood of something actually happening.

 

However be assured of this: You have my full support and agreement as to the wisdom of sending YOUR Sweetie Pie out for a stroll in South Central at 3AM any time that you like. Go for it.

 

Trust me, MY Sweetie Pie won't be doing anything that foolhardy. Her "'spidey sense'" not withstanding.

 

Truth is my post makes too much sense.

Edited August 27, 2007 by Team Cotati

[+sbell111]

This is too ridiculous. I'm out.

[+Team Cotati]

Purrrr-fect.

[+Team Cotati]

Ok, ok....I admit it, I was wrong. Not only could it get more halarious, it in fact did.

do you ever meet someone and know that they don't realize that they ARE the joke?

 

keep laughing, pal. we're laughing with at you.

 

your quaint little ideas about women and danger are, i suspect, somehow related to your avatar which somehow seems to stop just before it gets to what i assume are the little teeny bits.

 

no, seriously. most of the idiotic rhetoric about women being unprotected in "this day and age" (yikes! it's such a big, bad world out there!) comes not from women, but from men. really, boys, are you so afraid of what will happen if you have to re-examine your role as our protectors?

 

i can't speak for the rest of us over here in the girls' locker room, but i don't need protecting.

 

when you have been hit by lightning, run over by a truck, stalked by a predator, been covered with chemical burns, had anaphylaxis, strider reaction, stevens-johnson syndrome, been threatened by moose, lost on a firing range, descended a class V rapid in a two-man raft, gone over handlebars at 30 MPH AND you know how to spell "hilarious", you may speak to me about how much protection i need.

 

until such time, little man, you may keep laughing, but you may not come into my presence. i have no patience for such as you.

 

you can go over there and look for intruders. me, i'm too busy. i spent my afternoon watching out for loose gravel on the four-cross course. and i saw a really cool mushroom. and i managed not to run over a cute little snake. i talked to strangers. i changed clothes in a parking lot. i had a nap in a public building.

 

i go where i please. i will probably die young, but i'll have a really great time between now and then. my body will simply wear out long before some imaginary assailant gets me.

 

i am not afraid.

Flask, I feel that this is a truly wonderful and realistic -- and honest -- post; thank you for taking the time and care to write it! It is also humorous as all heck, as is true of most writing which comes from the Heart and from Spirit. Thank you. BTW, the amount of sexism -- as well as grandiose fear of being alive -- shown by a few posters here in this thread is TRULY amazing! Thank you again for being present on this forum and for taking the time to share your observations -- I appreciate it.

 

The 'honesty' part, I agree with: "my friends tend to be reckless as well."

[+Mule Ears]

Thank you Mule Ears for steering this back on track. I almost quit reading this thread because it did seem to degenerate into weirdness. And thanks for posting the book information – looks like something I’ll be buying soon.

 

You'll enjoy the book. Not grim as the title suggests, but uplifting and even "empowering." I guess what motivated me to read it was that I noticed my personal space in public shrinking. I realized that glasses, baldness and a gray beard had changed the threat assessment that others assigned to me. Takes a little adjustment. If I live to be old and frail my threat status will sink still lower. Best to develop good habits of situational awareness now.

 

Regarding the earlier questionnaire--the homeless guy, teenager, biker dude, midnight knock--there are actually two opposed, stereotypical responses to each. One says, "I would fear those individuals based on my prejudice that they are dangerous." The other says, "I would refuse to fear those individuals precisely because they're victims of unjust prejudice." Both are wrong. The right answer is, "I'd evaluate the situation and rely on my senses, instincts and good judgement."

[+flask]

 

Regarding the earlier questionnaire--the homeless guy, teenager, biker dude, midnight knock--there are actually two opposed, stereotypical responses to each. One says, "I would fear those individuals based on my prejudice that they are dangerous." The other says, "I would refuse to fear those individuals precisely because they're victims of unjust prejudice." Both are wrong. The right answer is, "I'd evaluate the situation and rely on my senses, instincts and good judgement."

 

regarding the questionnaire: in four of the examples, i am the person being approached. in the other two, i am the host of the party and the sick woman with the wrecked car.

 

it is possible where i live to get mugged or beaten or killed. i don't choose to worry about it. when (and you will notice my use of the word "when") i have met people who intend to do me harm, i respond firmly and in a way that has caused then to turn and run. i don't know why you all seem to think my abridged biography is weird. i don't ride without a helmet. i don't climb without a harness.

 

if i had stayed off of that mountain, i wouldn't have been struck by lightning. if i'd stayed off the road i wouldn't have been run over. if i hadn't had a routine colonoscopy i wouldn't have needed that ambulance.

 

i don't blame the mountain, the road, or the colonoscopy. i do not believe i should have stayed home.

 

there is much about my world that is already dangerous and frightening. if i care to read the statistics, i should have been dead by now. the world isn't bigger or more dangerous than it used to be; we simply have access to more sensational information.

 

logging accidents. mine explosions. poisoned groundwater. cholera. black death. infant mortality. civil war. wildfires. accidental drownings. volcanoes.

 

i can't be bothered to be afraid. i feel sorry for people caught in the cultural panic. good news doen't sell ads. bicycle safety doesn't seem to translate smoothly into primetime TV. flip through your channels. how many shows do you see in any given hour about proper use of climbing gear? violent crime?

 

i walk alone, and in the dark. city or country. i talk to strangers. most of the time the people i meet are friendly and generous. good people are everywhere if you're looking for them. geocaching alone and unsuspicious is a gift.

 

you might be afraid to go with the little man on the bike, alone and unarmed. but i was standing beside him in late afternoon sunlight under a cobalt blue sky, looking out over the entire city of montreal. it is a saturday afternoon at four o'clock and all the church bells begin to ring. he motions to the trail below us, into the woods.

 

"do you want to see where it goes?" he says.

 

"YES! i want to see where it goes!"

 

i want to see where it goes.

 

i am not afraid.

[+Team Cotati]

 

Regarding the earlier questionnaire--the homeless guy, teenager, biker dude, midnight knock--there are actually two opposed, stereotypical responses to each. One says, "I would fear those individuals based on my prejudice that they are dangerous." The other says, "I would refuse to fear those individuals precisely because they're victims of unjust prejudice." Both are wrong. The right answer is, "I'd evaluate the situation and rely on my senses, instincts and good judgement."

 

regarding the questionnaire: in four of the examples, i am the person being approached. in the other two, i am the host of the party and the sick woman with the wrecked car.

 

it is possible where i live to get mugged or beaten or killed. i don't choose to worry about it. when (and you will notice my use of the word "when") i have met people who intend to do me harm, i respond firmly and in a way that has caused then to turn and run. i don't know why you all seem to think my abridged biography is weird. i don't ride without a helmet. i don't climb without a harness.

 

if i had stayed off of that mountain, i wouldn't have been struck by lightning. if i'd stayed off the road i wouldn't have been run over. if i hadn't had a routine colonoscopy i wouldn't have needed that ambulance.

 

i don't blame the mountain, the road, or the colonoscopy. i do not believe i should have stayed home.

 

there is much about my world that is already dangerous and frightening. if i care to read the statistics, i should have been dead by now. the world isn't bigger or more dangerous than it used to be; we simply have access to more sensational information.

 

logging accidents. mine explosions. poisoned groundwater. cholera. black death. infant mortality. civil war. wildfires. accidental drownings. volcanoes.

 

i can't be bothered to be afraid. i feel sorry for people caught in the cultural panic. good news doen't sell ads. bicycle safety doesn't seem to translate smoothly into primetime TV. flip through your channels. how many shows do you see in any given hour about proper use of climbing gear? violent crime?

 

i walk alone, and in the dark. city or country. i talk to strangers. most of the time the people i meet are friendly and generous. good people are everywhere if you're looking for them. geocaching alone and unsuspicious is a gift.

 

you might be afraid to go with the little man on the bike, alone and unarmed. but i was standing beside him in late afternoon sunlight under a cobalt blue sky, looking out over the entire city of montreal. it is a saturday afternoon at four o'clock and all the church bells begin to ring. he motions to the trail below us, into the woods.

 

"do you want to see where it goes?" he says.

 

"YES! i want to see where it goes!"

 

i want to see where it goes.

 

i am not afraid.

 

Superme being over all the universe-- freaking help me!! Criminnie, get over yourself already.

 

I surrender, you win. I bow to your acumen. Geez, what ever it takes. Hey Sweetie Pie!! Next time we are in LA, I'll drop you in South Central for some 'shopping'. I'll be back in a week or two.....you are on your own, don't bother me. See that bench over there? Call it home, here's a case of T-Bird and a dirty syringe. Cripes!!

Edited August 27, 2007 by Team Cotati

[+flask]

 

Superme being over all the universe-- freaking help me!! Criminnie, get over yourself already.

 

I surrender, you win. I bow to your acumen. Geez, what ever it takes. Hey Sweetie Pie!! Next time we are in LA, I'll drop you in South Central for some 'shopping'. I'll be back in a week or two.....you are on your own, don't bother me. See that bench over there? Call it home, here's a case of T-Bird and a dirty syringe. Cripes!!

 

i can't figger this out. are you talking to your wife, or to me? have you been nipping the t-bird?

[+mtn-man]

Been reluctant to post to this thread, as it almost immediately veered away from the OP's question into some bizarre stuff.

I've been tempted today to close this one and hope it can stay get back on track again. Some of you need to take your personal issues to PM please.

Edited August 27, 2007 by mtn-man

[+QuesterMark]

this is how baaaaad i really am:

 

i teach middle school music.

 

Hey. You have a link in your forum sig to a blog to which one must be invited.

 

I'd probably read it were I to be invited.

[+Mule Ears]

 

Regarding the earlier questionnaire--the homeless guy, teenager, biker dude, midnight knock--there are actually two opposed, stereotypical responses to each. One says, "I would fear those individuals based on my prejudice that they are dangerous." The other says, "I would refuse to fear those individuals precisely because they're victims of unjust prejudice." Both are wrong. The right answer is, "I'd evaluate the situation and rely on my senses, instincts and good judgement."

 

regarding the questionnaire: in four of the examples, i am the person being approached. in the other two, i am the host of the party and the sick woman with the wrecked car.

 

it is possible where i live to get mugged or beaten or killed. i don't choose to worry about it. when (and you will notice my use of the word "when") i have met people who intend to do me harm, i respond firmly and in a way that has caused then to turn and run. i don't know why you all seem to think my abridged biography is weird. i don't ride without a helmet. i don't climb without a harness.

 

if i had stayed off of that mountain, i wouldn't have been struck by lightning. if i'd stayed off the road i wouldn't have been run over. if i hadn't had a routine colonoscopy i wouldn't have needed that ambulance.

 

i don't blame the mountain, the road, or the colonoscopy. i do not believe i should have stayed home.

 

there is much about my world that is already dangerous and frightening. if i care to read the statistics, i should have been dead by now. the world isn't bigger or more dangerous than it used to be; we simply have access to more sensational information.

 

logging accidents. mine explosions. poisoned groundwater. cholera. black death. infant mortality. civil war. wildfires. accidental drownings. volcanoes.

 

i can't be bothered to be afraid. i feel sorry for people caught in the cultural panic. good news doen't sell ads. bicycle safety doesn't seem to translate smoothly into primetime TV. flip through your channels. how many shows do you see in any given hour about proper use of climbing gear? violent crime?

 

i walk alone, and in the dark. city or country. i talk to strangers. most of the time the people i meet are friendly and generous. good people are everywhere if you're looking for them. geocaching alone and unsuspicious is a gift.

 

you might be afraid to go with the little man on the bike, alone and unarmed. but i was standing beside him in late afternoon sunlight under a cobalt blue sky, looking out over the entire city of montreal. it is a saturday afternoon at four o'clock and all the church bells begin to ring. he motions to the trail below us, into the woods.

 

"do you want to see where it goes?" he says.

 

"YES! i want to see where it goes!"

 

i want to see where it goes.

 

i am not afraid.

 

If you had gotten a truly malevolent vibe off of any of the people you encountered in the situations you described, would you have ignored it? And, if so and something bad had developed, your plan was to (paraphrasing) 'respond firmly and make them turn and run?' Or is your philosophy more fatalistic (i.e., bad stuff happens, but it's not worth worrying about)?

 

Forgive me if I'm reading you wrong, but you seem to perceive a (false) dichotomy between your free-wheeling style and everyone else's fearful, hunkered-down existence. That may be true in some cases, but it's quite a broad generalization. The OP seemed to have a pretty positive attitude; she just wants to take reasonable precautions.

Edited August 27, 2007 by Mule Ears

[+Team Cotati]

 

Superme being over all the universe-- freaking help me!! Criminnie, get over yourself already.

 

I surrender, you win. I bow to your acumen. Geez, what ever it takes. Hey Sweetie Pie!! Next time we are in LA, I'll drop you in South Central for some 'shopping'. I'll be back in a week or two.....you are on your own, don't bother me. See that bench over there? Call it home, here's a case of T-Bird and a dirty syringe. Cripes!!

 

i can't figger this out. are you talking to your wife, or to me? have you been nipping the t-bird?

 

You: Supreme being over all the universe-- freaking help me!! Criminnie, get over yourself already.

 

I surrender, you win. I bow to your acumen. Geez, what ever it takes.

 

My wiffie, Sweetie Pie, who btw thinks that this stuff is roaringly hIlarious,... the rest.

[+zazth]

Ya know when you're yakking away on that cell phone to an oblivious machine would be the best time for the blood thirsty maniac you seem to be constantly worried about to strike! How aware of your surroundings are you when you are calling at every stop to alert said machine of your whereabouts in the event of your untimely demise? Or are you waiting to call while driving? Oh my, that is SO much safer! For you and the poor guy driving in the lane next to you or behind you or in front of you. NICE!

I'm active duty military and have spent time in a few foreign countries. I made a point of going down back alleys in every port we came too. Why? Because I wanted to see what these places are REALLY like, not the tourist fronts. I was never accosted or even given dirty looks despite my being an American, or more importantly a woman walking around in daylight without her head covered. Quite the opposite! I met many interesting people from different walks of life. I would not trade any of these experiences for the illusion of safety.

I don't walk around with money hanging out of my pockets. I am not oblivious to my surroundings. I make eye contact and maintain it which believe it or not seems to send those up to no good running! I consider myself to be an honest person and I live strictly by my own moral code. Not yours, nor any other male OR females, mine.

[+mertat]

Thank you Mule Ears for steering this back on track. I almost quit reading this thread because it did seem to degenerate into weirdness. And thanks for posting the book information – looks like something I’ll be buying soon.

 

You'll enjoy the book. Not grim as the title suggests, but uplifting and even "empowering." I guess what motivated me to read it was that I noticed my personal space in public shrinking. I realized that glasses, baldness and a gray beard had changed the threat assessment that others assigned to me. Takes a little adjustment. If I live to be old and frail my threat status will sink still lower. Best to develop good habits of situational awareness now.

 

 

I'm all for anything that helps me tap into my survival instinct.

 

I'm always interested in these type of threads when they start because I always hope that I can glean some good information or tips from others. Somehow, they always seem to degenerate into gun topics or whatever this one has devolved into

 

However, a couple of other things occurred to me that I do that I thought I'd pass along just in case someone like me is still reading this:

 

1) I know this probably seems simplistic but know how to change a tire - and make sure you actually have a usable spare in your car. I came back from a 6 mile hike one time to find a completely flat tire on my car. Funnily enough, on the whole hike I hadn't passed anyone and there was no one else parked in the lot I was in but as I'm in the middle of changing the tire (got the lug nuts off), I look up to see a fellow geocacher coming up the trail (he'd parked at the alternative parking lot after I'd passed by). While I was perfectly capable of changing that tire myself, he graciously offered to finish up for me and I gladly accepted.

 

2) I have an emergency car starter in my car. That way if my battery should die out in the middle of no where, I don't have to rely on my cell phone service working or the luck of someone coming along to jump off my car.

[+mertat]

Ya know when you're yakking away on that cell phone to an oblivious machine would be the best time for the blood thirsty maniac you seem to be constantly worried about to strike! How aware of your surroundings are you when you are calling at every stop to alert said machine of your whereabouts in the event of your untimely demise? Or are you waiting to call while driving? Oh my, that is SO much safer! For you and the poor guy driving in the lane next to you or behind you or in front of you. NICE!

 

Well, as I said before, I don't make these calls because I'm afraid of a blood thirsty maniac - I make them in case I get hurt on the trail. Yes, I'm careful but accidents still happen. And I always call from a parked car.

Edited August 27, 2007 by mertat

[+zazth]

Ya know when you're yakking away on that cell phone to an oblivious machine would be the best time for the blood thirsty maniac you seem to be constantly worried about to strike! How aware of your surroundings are you when you are calling at every stop to alert said machine of your whereabouts in the event of your untimely demise? Or are you waiting to call while driving? Oh my, that is SO much safer! For you and the poor guy driving in the lane next to you or behind you or in front of you. NICE!

 

Well, as I said before, I don't make these calls because I'm afraid of a blood thirsty maniac - I make them in case I get hurt on the trail. Yes, I'm careful but accidents still happen. And I always call from a parked car.

 

I like parked cars!

[+Team GeoBlast]

I also leave an itinerary at home and with a friend or relative. Since my caching style is rather fluid, I don’t necessarily hit all the caches on the list or in the order they are on the list. So I call my answering machine and leave a message detailing arrival time and cache name. When I’m done, I call and leave another message on my answering machine with my departure time and next cache I plan to do. The person I’ve left my itinerary with knows I do this. When I get home, that person gets a phone call.

 

I think technology is going to help make this more effective really soon. I think it is reasonable that most of us will have an internet enabled device that we carry with us in the near future. Look how effective it would be to track your whereabouts if you were logging a simple found it note and the time (of course you would go back and edit it later to include your story) on the cache page once you find it. So, all you would need to say is that you have gone caching and you will be logging your finds in real time.

 

If there's a concern that something has gone awry, you pull up the persons profile and you've got coordinates and the time visited.

[+Sioneva]

Thank you Mule Ears for steering this back on track. I almost quit reading this thread because it did seem to degenerate into weirdness. And thanks for posting the book information – looks like something I’ll be buying soon.

 

You'll enjoy the book. Not grim as the title suggests, but uplifting and even "empowering." I guess what motivated me to read it was that I noticed my personal space in public shrinking. I realized that glasses, baldness and a gray beard had changed the threat assessment that others assigned to me. Takes a little adjustment. If I live to be old and frail my threat status will sink still lower. Best to develop good habits of situational awareness now.

 

<snip>

 

 

I know I said I was done with this thread, but...

 

I read an excerpt from the book today on Amazon, and it intrigued me enough that I spent an hour after work standing in the aisle at a bookstore, skimming some sections, reading intently through others. Aside from a liberal, anti-gun viewpoint, the author has some solid, telling points on how to recognize danger, and why your instincts might be screaming a warning. It certainly has given me a lot of food for thought - thank you for recommending it! Unfortunately, it doesn't go into depth on what to do once you have recognized a threat, but I guess that's where common sense should kick in!

 

I don't say it'll be enough to make my change my solo-caching excursions, but I think I'll be better at judging social interaction in terms of good/bad. There's only been once in the last year or so that really lit off my 'get out of here NOW' instincts, and that was in an aisle at a Dollar Store, oddly enough, no anywhere out remote and isolated.

 

Thanks again.

[+flask]

 

If you had gotten a truly malevolent vibe off of any of the people you encountered in the situations you described, would you have ignored it? And, if so and something bad had developed, your plan was to (paraphrasing) 'respond firmly and make them turn and run?' Or is your philosophy more fatalistic (i.e., bad stuff happens, but it's not worth worrying about)?

 

Forgive me if I'm reading you wrong, but you seem to perceive a (false) dichotomy between your free-wheeling style and everyone else's fearful, hunkered-down existence. That may be true in some cases, but it's quite a broad generalization. The OP seemed to have a pretty positive attitude; she just wants to take reasonable precautions.

 

i have met and eaten breakfast with people who exude such a malevolent vibe as to chill your blood. it is not my plan to make attackers run; it's what has been my experience. you are correct about my philosophy, which is not to worry about it.

 

you are reading me wrong; i have no free-wheeling style. i am responding to the utter tripe (with deference to the beefcake who both declares me the winner AND rebuts me in the same breath; if anyone called me "the wiffie", he'd get his teeth handed back to him in an omelet.)

 

anyway, i'm responding very strongly to the notion that "females" caching alone "in this day and age" are looking for trouble. we are not. we are looking for ammo cans. everyone seems to have different ideas about what constitutes reasonable precautions. for some people it means simply being alert, and for some it means only going out with an armed male to accompany.

 

i don't enjoy danger particularly. i've had enough of it for one lifetime. when i took up geocaching alone for prolonged periods, it transformed me. it took me places where i had to rely heavily on the intent of the hider. it was a gigantic leap of Faith.

 

when i walk in the darkness, i go without a light. it's not just metaphor. it's not about being brave or good but about serious consideration for how i wish to interact with my world. geocaching brought me to this point. geocaching alone changed me forever.

 

as long as i keep seeing the hints of hidden festering sexism and alarmism, i'll keep telling you:

 

i am not afraid.

[+Mule Ears]

 

If you had gotten a truly malevolent vibe off of any of the people you encountered in the situations you described, would you have ignored it? And, if so and something bad had developed, your plan was to (paraphrasing) 'respond firmly and make them turn and run?' Or is your philosophy more fatalistic (i.e., bad stuff happens, but it's not worth worrying about)?

 

Forgive me if I'm reading you wrong, but you seem to perceive a (false) dichotomy between your free-wheeling style and everyone else's fearful, hunkered-down existence. That may be true in some cases, but it's quite a broad generalization. The OP seemed to have a pretty positive attitude; she just wants to take reasonable precautions.

 

i have met and eaten breakfast with people who exude such a malevolent vibe as to chill your blood. it is not my plan to make attackers run; it's what has been my experience. you are correct about my philosophy, which is not to worry about it.

 

you are reading me wrong; i have no free-wheeling style. i am responding to the utter tripe (with deference to the beefcake who both declares me the winner AND rebuts me in the same breath; if anyone called me "the wiffie", he'd get his teeth handed back to him in an omelet.)

 

anyway, i'm responding very strongly to the notion that "females" caching alone "in this day and age" are looking for trouble. we are not. we are looking for ammo cans. everyone seems to have different ideas about what constitutes reasonable precautions. for some people it means simply being alert, and for some it means only going out with an armed male to accompany.

 

i don't enjoy danger particularly. i've had enough of it for one lifetime. when i took up geocaching alone for prolonged periods, it transformed me. it took me places where i had to rely heavily on the intent of the hider. it was a gigantic leap of Faith.

 

when i walk in the darkness, i go without a light. it's not just metaphor. it's not about being brave or good but about serious consideration for how i wish to interact with my world. geocaching brought me to this point. geocaching alone changed me forever.

 

as long as i keep seeing the hints of hidden festering sexism and alarmism, i'll keep telling you:

 

i am not afraid.

 

That's the clarification I was seeking. Really nothing to say in response, except that you have no idea what might or might not alter the temperature of my blood in either direction (though you probably meant "your" generically, as is the common usage).

[+GeoScooter1]

(with deference to the beefcake who both declares me the winner AND rebuts me in the same breath;)

 

UH....he is not exactly what I would call a beefcake. His avatar might be..just as I could have an avatar of Angelina Jolie. Doesn't mean I look like that.

[+Mule Ears]

-snip-

 

However, a couple of other things occurred to me that I do that I thought I'd pass along just in case someone like me is still reading this:

 

1) I know this probably seems simplistic but know how to change a tire - and make sure you actually have a usable spare in your car. I came back from a 6 mile hike one time to find a completely flat tire on my car. Funnily enough, on the whole hike I hadn't passed anyone and there was no one else parked in the lot I was in but as I'm in the middle of changing the tire (got the lug nuts off), I look up to see a fellow geocacher coming up the trail (he'd parked at the alternative parking lot after I'd passed by). While I was perfectly capable of changing that tire myself, he graciously offered to finish up for me and I gladly accepted.

 

2) I have an emergency car starter in my car. That way if my battery should die out in the middle of no where, I don't have to rely on my cell phone service working or the luck of someone coming along to jump off my car.

 

Those are excellent suggestions for security and convenience. Rehearsing tire changing sounds like an anal-retentive, Hank-Hillian sort of thing, but it's a good idea. You'll probably discover that the toy jack included in the car's tool kit is barely adequate to do the job in your garage, much less on a muddy back road in the rain. And that the manufacturer has very specific ideas about where the jack engages the frame.

 

Volunteer roadside assistance: It's another way to meet interesting people.

 

I sometimes use the emergency-starter battery box to power my laptop as well. Saves drain on the vehicle battery and cycles the starter battery.

[+Mule Ears]

[i know I said I was done with this thread, but...

 

I read an excerpt from the book today on Amazon, and it intrigued me enough that I spent an hour after work standing in the aisle at a bookstore, skimming some sections, reading intently through others. Aside from a liberal, anti-gun viewpoint, the author has some solid, telling points on how to recognize danger, and why your instincts might be screaming a warning. It certainly has given me a lot of food for thought - thank you for recommending it! Unfortunately, it doesn't go into depth on what to do once you have recognized a threat, but I guess that's where common sense should kick in!

 

I don't say it'll be enough to make my change my solo-caching excursions, but I think I'll be better at judging social interaction in terms of good/bad. There's only been once in the last year or so that really lit off my 'get out of here NOW' instincts, and that was in an aisle at a Dollar Store, oddly enough, no anywhere out remote and isolated.

 

Thanks again.

 

You're welcome. That's an interesting observation about the book's bias. I'm a libertarian with little patience for that kind of thing, but I don't recall it interfering much with my enjoyment of the book. As far as the what-to-do aspect, if your instincts are good and you're listening to them, there's not much to do. You've foreseen a bad situation and left before it could develop. Should you be slightly slow in perceiving trouble, there are plenty of self-defense implements and techniques out there.

 

Another book with good information and inspirational themes for outdoors people is Deep Survival by Laurence Gonzales. The book's analyses of dire survival scenarios (plane crashes, lost hikers, storms at sea, etc.) include several gutsy heroines who embody the right mental attitude to find their way out of seemingly hopeless situations. It's a great 'guy' book, with wonderful imagery as when Gonzales describes a fighter pilot's struggle with panic as "a knife fight in a phone booth." But it's also a great 'gal' book in that it documents the value of wonder, curiosity and generosity in survival situations.

[+DammitNanet]

Apparently everyone has their own idea of how to keep herself (or his self) safe. Ultimately we should not cease to do what we love most because there is potential danger lurking around the corner. That can be anywhere; the woods, the city, a nice local park or school yard . . . You just never know. However, I refuse to give up loving what I do because of the "what if" factor.

 

When I cache it generally revolves around a hike in the woods. If I am going solo I leave my husband a copy of the map with the route highlighted. I am big into planning my hikes and cache routes for that reason alone.

 

I always have my cell phone and my dog. I keep pepper spray on a clip on the front of my pack so I can always get to it. I'm always aware of my surroundings. I don't feel the need to carry a knife, gun, etc., they would just weigh down my pack. Did I mention I always have the dog with me and she would defend me with her life. If something seems out of the ordinary and creeps me out, I may modify my hike. I've done this several times before and will probably do it many times in the future thanks to good planning. If I'm out for a longer hike, I may check in at home a few times. If I don't call Doug, he always calls me to check in.

 

I'm just not prepared to give up loving what I do because or even significantly change the way I do it.

[+flask]

 

That's the clarification I was seeking. Really nothing to say in response, except that you have no idea what might or might not alter the temperature of my blood in either direction (though you probably meant "your" generically, as is the common usage).

 

i did mean it generically, but if your blood isn't chilled when you look into the eyes of a seven-year-old who enjoys blood torture, you simply have no blood.

 

my most recent "breakfast with evil" was a woman who had was on her first day of release from a prison where she had done some hard time in solitary. she recounted her violent crimes as casually as you might recite what you had for lunch.

 

i am aware that harm may come from any direction, as only someone whose nose has been broken by a small child may attest. the only really frightening thing in that circumstance is how to protect the other children from a thing like that.

[+Renegade Knight]

Ya know when you're yakking away on that cell phone to an oblivious machine would be the best time for the blood thirsty maniac you seem to be constantly worried about to strike! How aware of your surroundings are you when you are calling at every stop to alert said machine of your whereabouts in the event of your untimely demise? Or are you waiting to call while driving? Oh my, that is SO much safer! For you and the poor guy driving in the lane next to you or behind you or in front of you. NICE!

 

Well, as I said before, I don't make these calls because I'm afraid of a blood thirsty maniac - I make them in case I get hurt on the trail. Yes, I'm careful but accidents still happen. And I always call from a parked car.

 

Your calls are fine and good information. I've slashed tires and ended up changing a flat at 105 degrees in the sun with no water since I sure as heck wasn't planning on a flat off a road that I didn't know I was going to be on. One more flat on the way out...and I'd be wishing I left a better itinerary at home.

 

Your method isn't broken.

 

Half this thread now sounds like some bad advice I got. "Why bother with dead bolts? If they want in they are going to break in?" I didn't respond. Later when I was out from under their thumb I installed dead bolts and my insurance company thanked me by giving me a lower premium. Must be something to the things after all even if "s*** happens anyway".