Closed Gate(s)

[+shaker962]

We recently attempted a FTF (gcwgad) the end of the road came to a stop in a farmers yard.The appearent way to the cache was either through a closed gate or it seemed you could bypass the gate by going through a planted field . We did not feel comfortable doing either. Now i know we could have simply gone to the farm house and asked but as low impact cachers we do not feel right doing that. We think that the house people might not like to be asked over and over about a nearby cache. we think that might give caching a bad name with the locals. same with going throught closed gates

So heres an idea that we think might work. Not sure if its been suggested before so ill ask and see what replies i get?

During the depression i believe the hobos used to put marks at the entrances to houses that were friendly to hobos . So the next hobo along that road would know that this house might give them a place to sleep or meal

 

So in a case like this one where theres only one "natural" entrance to the cache . Maybe the first cacher could go ask at the house and if its ok to go through the gate maybe the first cacher could put a small geocaching sticker in the right most part of the gate to let others know its ok to use this gate without repeatedly asking at the house?

and im just using this gate as an example? it could be andything like a trail that appears to be private or even have a no trespassing sign?

 

so what do you all think ... can we use HOBO marks for special circumstances ?

thanks shaker962

[+wiseye]

I think that info should be supplied on the cache page, please don't deface private property with marks or stickers, however small. That will not win us any friends.

[CoyoteRed]

so what do you all think ... can we use HOBO marks for special circumstances ?

 

That would be up to the cache owner and the property owner. I think both would have to approve of this.

 

There are plenty of low impact ways of marking an entrance. A tag with the G+ symbol would be a good place to start. If stickers aren't frowned upon then a sticker from the GC store or a vinyl G+ that we sell are good choices. (We use one in one of our caches. Plus, we've been thinking about selling a 9 pack of 1" stickers to be more discreet than the 3" ones. )

 

Then if this scheme catches on when you come across such a signal you know it's safe to proceed.

[+shaker962]

so what do you all think ... can we use HOBO marks for special circumstances ?

 

That would be up to the cache owner and the property owner. I think both would have to approve of this.

 

There are plenty of low impact ways of marking an entrance. A tag with the G+ symbol would be a good place to start. If stickers aren't frowned upon then a sticker from the GC store or a vinyl G+ that we sell are good choices. (We use one in one of our caches. Plus, we've been thinking about selling a 9 pack of 1" stickers to be more discreet than the 3" ones. )

 

Then if this scheme catches on when you come across such a signal you know it's safe to proceed.

 

thas exactly what i was thinking of ,,,with permission and low impact . i know this situation might not be normal i was just looking for an acceptable way to solve it without impacting the nearby farm house ,

thansk shaker962

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

We recently attempted a FTF (gcwgad) the end of the road came to a stop in a farmers yard.The appearent way to the cache was either through a closed gate or it seemed you could bypass the gate by going through a planted field . We did not feel comfortable doing either. Now i know we could have simply gone to the farm house and asked but as low impact cachers we do not feel right doing that. We think that the house people might not like to be asked over and over about a nearby cache. we think that might give caching a bad name with the locals. same with going throught closed gates

So heres an idea that we think might work. Not sure if its been suggested before so ill ask and see what replies i get?

During the depression i believe the hobos used to put marks at the entrances to houses that were friendly to hobos . So the next hobo along that road would know that this house might give them a place to sleep or meal

 

So in a case like this one where theres only one "natural" entrance to the cache . Maybe the first cacher could go ask at the house and if its ok to go through the gate maybe the first cacher could put a small geocaching sticker in the right most part of the gate to let others know its ok to use this gate without repeatedly asking at the house?

and im just using this gate as an example? it could be andything like a trail that appears to be private or even have a no trespassing sign?

 

so what do you all think ... can we use HOBO marks for special circumstances ?

thanks shaker962

Faulty idea. Any such sticker (or mark, which I do not advise, due to permanence) could easily be placed by an unscrupulous cacher even in the absence of permission (to pass thru gate to access the land) by the landowner, and then would entice geocachers to trespass. I personally believe that if a gate is involved, then a clear and explicit statement of that fact must be made on the cache listing page, along with the statement (as appropriate) that permission has been granted by the landowner to pass thru the gate, and to be sure to close it afterward. I would even reomend disclosing the name of the landowner so that if anyone is stopped they may refer to the cache listing page in order to cite the name of the person who gave permission.

[CoyoteRed]

Faulty idea. Any such sticker (or mark, which I do not advise, due to permanence) could easily be placed by an unscrupulous cacher even in the absence of permission (to pass thru gate to access the land) by the landowner, and then would entice geocachers to trespass. I personally believe that if a gate is involved, then a clear and explicit statement of that fact must be made on the cache listing page, along with the statement (as appropriate) that permission has been granted by the landowner to pass thru the gate, and to be sure to close it afterward. I would even reomend disclosing the name of the landowner so that if anyone is stopped they may refer to the cache listing page in order to cite the name of the person who gave permission.

 

An unscrupulous cacher can do all sorts of things today. I wouldn't worry too much about that aspect. If you find such a cache log an SBA. No different than placing a cache behind a No Trespassing sign.

 

If the gate is big deal then I wouldn't even make the cache a traditional as too many folks don't read the descriptions in the first place.

 

As for listing the person giving permission that is only if they are completely comfortable with it.

 

Actually, I'm seeing more advantages to it than disadvantages.

[+Team Cotati]

Is this level of complexity really warranted? Placing a cache that important?

[+Prime Suspect]

As others have said, this info belongs on the cache page. There's no need for some complex system of signs and stickers.

[Clan Riffster]

Placing a cache that important?

Geocaching is not a matter of life or death. It's way more important than that.

OK, back on topic;

I think in general, a cache requiring special circumstances should be detailed in the cache page. Laws differ across the country, but in Florida, crossing a gate or walking a cultivated field are both grounds for being arrested for trespassing. No signs needed. Hopefully there's a different route to take to the cache you sought.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

...I think in general, a cache requiring special circumstances should be detailed in the cache page. Laws differ across the country, but in Florida, crossing a gate or walking a cultivated field are both grounds for being arrested for trespassing. No signs needed. Hopefully there's a different route to take to the cache you sought.

Yes, although trespassing laws do vary from state to state in the USA, I believe that in every state the laws read that, among other actions, entering cultivated fields and passing thru a closed gate in a fence constitutes trespassing. Again, if you really must place this cache, then I recommend extensive and clear notes on the cache listing page about how to deal with the gate (incl. permissions, etc.), and also I would recommend a cache type of "?" to encourage all seekers to read the cache listng page.

[Luckless]

Did you try sending an email to the cache owner to see what they had to say? (Bear in mind they may not have permission to use the field to get to the cache.)

[+Munin]

Sometimes the closest road isn't the best approach. Let me toss out a theory based on clicking around some online info and see how it flies...

 

Most of the online map links make it look like the cache is near the end of Countryman Rd. Based on the Google satellite maps, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you were trying to come in from this direction when you encountered the gate and farmland - in the sat view that area looks like it's been cultivated.

 

However, looking at the Geocaching.com Maps link on the cache page I notice there's a railroad shown passing near the cache. Hmmmm...

 

 

And looking at the Google Maps for that location and selecting hybrid mode, there cache sure looks to be close to some sort of slash running WSW to ENE (consistent with a railroad), and near the south edge of a pond (possibly consistent with the "Erin's Picnic Spot" cache name). But the resolution is too poor to get too much confidence from this.

 

 

Now I don't happen to have any Candian Topo maps sitting around my house, but hopping over to Garmin's site I used the preview mode with their Topo Canada, and with a fair bit of panning and zooming I ended up here:

 

 

This also suggests that there is (or rather was) a railroad running through the area, roughly along the lines of what the GC.com map shows. And it hugs Drag Lake's southern shore pretty closely, which is consistent with the slash on the Google Map satellite view of the cache location, and again could be consistent with the "picnic spot" name.

 

Since the railroad is marked as abandoned on the topo map, is it possible that it's been converted over to a hiking and/or biking path? Flipping back to the regular Google Map road view and panning around, it looks like the railroad might cross Reavie Ln to the east and Douglas Rd to the west (both off of Crookston Rd / 38). Perhaps there's a trailhead and parking at either/both of these locations where one might access the railroad/path/whatever-it-is-nowadays to get to the cache without the need to cross any farmland.

 

Anyways, just something to consider.

[+martinell]

I got "lost" once - the cache appeared to be just 1/2 mile ahead on a farmers property through closed fences and signs saying "There is nothing worth dying for up here."

 

After a closer look at the map I realized that a public road went through a public hunting area just behind his place. Retreived the cache with no problem after that.

[+shaker962]

update ,,, the abandoned railway is the way to go here

when looking up this cache i imported the waypoint into streets and trips ,,which naturally gave me the nearest road approach to the cache ,, and did not show the ex-railway .But i am sure that this road approach will be used by others and they will be faced by the same gate as we were . i have emailed the cache owner and suggested that they update the listing .

im still going to ponder more on this as i think in some cases the idea may have merit .If your doing the cache blind (no printout or no PDA,maybe the batteries on your pda go poopie lol )

the gate and field were enought to stop us but some might have pushed on?

this question was just in the interest of keeping caching a positive thing for the neighbours

thanks for the replies ,,shaker962

[+1stimestar]

All the more reason to look at the cache pages and actually read what the cache owners have to say.

[+Mary&Dave]

One of my caches is very difficult to find without going through private property if you're searching with just a GPS or a map. It's on a publicly accessible, but unlabelled trail in a nearby park. While someone could park illegally and cut through a couple backyards to get to it, I wanted to make sure they did not. The answer? I gave exact directions on how to get to the cache site. So far, everyone who has visited my cache has taken the correct trail.

 

I think you did the right thing by asking the cache owner to put a little more info on the page - at the very least, a "you do not have to go through a gate" note. If you were one of the first to find, he or she may not have even considered that access route. In general, unless a cache page specifically says that trespassing through private property is required (and permitted by the property owner), you can probably safely assume you're going the wrong way.

[+briansnat]

As others have said, this info belongs on the cache page. There's no need for some complex system of signs and stickers.

 

Agreed. If there is permission to cross private property it should be noted on the page.

 

Also, as Munin pointed out, the most obvious access point might not be the right one. In cases like this I either publish recommended parking coordinates, or make it a multi to ensure searchers come in from the proper direction.

[+wiseye]

Good Job Munin! Enlightening to say the least!

[+sbell111]

I have two thoughts about this issue. 1) If a cache is placed so one must enter property that is obviously private, an appropriate note should be in the cache description. 2) If the most obvious routes would require crossing private property but the cache is accessible through other means, no note is required. Finding legal access is part of the fun, in my opinion.

[+Allen_L]

Finding legal access is part of the fun, in my opinion.

Exactly.

[+Audion64]

I have two thoughts about this issue. 1) If a cache is placed so one must enter property that is obviously private, an appropriate note should be in the cache description. 2) If the most obvious routes would require crossing private property but the cache is accessible through other means, no note is required. Finding legal access is part of the fun, in my opinion.

 

And as long as we continue to try to educate cachers that finding the legal access is not only part of the fun but also the right thing to do if we don't want to give caching a bad name to the local authorities. There are many a cacher out there who will have no qualms taking the short illegal path rather than get back in the car and come in from the right direction... and, unfortunately, their actions reflect quite loudly to the general public about caching as a whole.

 

Remember folks, the things you choose to do don't affect just you! Don't screw it up for the rest of us who just want to continue to play the game in a legal manner.

Edited June 11, 2006 by Audion

[+sbell111]

I have two thoughts about this issue. 1) If a cache is placed so one must enter property that is obviously private, an appropriate note should be in the cache description. 2) If the most obvious routes would require crossing private property but the cache is accessible through other means, no note is required. Finding legal access is part of the fun, in my opinion.

And as long as we continue to try to educate cachers that finding the legal access is not only part of the fun but also the right thing to do if we don't want to give caching a bad name to the local authorities. ...

This sounds like a good idea on its face, but do we really want to be responsible for telling cachers not to do every illegal thing they can do? Should I put a note on my cache pages explaining to cachers that they should not drink and drive on the way to one of my caches?

 

I think we can assume that two things are true. 1) People know that trespassing is illegal. 2) If these people are aware of the law and not willing to comply, they have no reason to comply with my requests.

[+Audion64]

I have two thoughts about this issue. 1) If a cache is placed so one must enter property that is obviously private, an appropriate note should be in the cache description. 2) If the most obvious routes would require crossing private property but the cache is accessible through other means, no note is required. Finding legal access is part of the fun, in my opinion.

And as long as we continue to try to educate cachers that finding the legal access is not only part of the fun but also the right thing to do if we don't want to give caching a bad name to the local authorities. ...

This sounds like a good idea on its face, but do we really want to be responsible for telling cachers not to do every illegal thing they can do? Should I put a note on my cache pages explaining to cachers that they should not drink and drive on the way to one of my caches?

 

I think we can assume that two things are true. 1) People know that trespassing is illegal. 2) If these people are aware of the law and not willing to comply, they have no reason to comply with my requests.

 

I guess what I meant by 'educate' is akin to the 'education' our parents gave us when we were not behaving as we should be.

 

No, I don't think it necessary to remind people to not cross private property on the cache page. Things like that should be what most people would call, 'common sense'. Unfortunately, it appears lately that too many people don't have any. Either that or they are just rude, inconsiderate, self-centered and only give a carp about numero uno.

 

What I meant, is that when someone posts a log like, "Well, it was late and the park gates were closed cause the park closed at sundown so we cut thru the cornfield to the west instead.'..... someone needs to call them on the carpet right then and there and give them a stern reminder that it's exactly THOSE kinds of activities that are the things that get caching severely regulated or banned in areas altogether. My response might be something along the lines of 'It's idiots like you that are slowly ruining caching for the rest of us.' And I'd have no qualms about saying it. It might very well have zero effect... but hopefully a little peer pressure and public ridicule will get them to realize that their actions are screwing us over in the long run.

[+Renegade Knight]

I have two thoughts about this issue. 1) If a cache is placed so one must enter property that is obviously private, an appropriate note should be in the cache description. 2) If the most obvious routes would require crossing private property but the cache is accessible through other means, no note is required. Finding legal access is part of the fun, in my opinion.

Ditto:

[+Mary&Dave]

If the most obvious routes would require crossing private property but the cache is accessible through other means, no note is required. Finding legal access is part of the fun, in my opinion.

 

Having to search for the correct (legal) access route to the cache site can most definitely be fun. But it's also nice to have a note on the cache page indicating that this route exists.

 

Here's a note from a local cache:

 

"The difficulty getting to this cache is due to an issue of accessibility. It is not necessary to trespass or climb fences or do any of those illegal, unethical sorts of things. Please, please, please; don't."

 

That quick note eliminated a lot of frustration when the coordinates seemed to always point into private property.