Permission To Cache...

[+hometeachin]

Who do you go to to get permission to hide a cache on public land? There is a lot of state and federal land in Arizona that would be awesome for caching, but I don't know how to go about asking permission. Also, the urban caches...do you ask the store owner if it is in the parking lot or landscaping of the establishment?

 

Thanks!

Jenn in AZ

[+Renegade Knight]

Arizona has state trust lands that allow geocaching but you have to pay a yearly fee to use the lands. Most western states have state trust lands, but Arizona feels the need to charge for access.

 

The BLM allows geocaching on it's lands as does the forest service (some Wilderness areas don't). You have an Arizona users group that could help fill you in on any rules that parks may or may not have.

[+Marcie/Eric]

Talk to your local approver if you have a site in mind. My approver answered about 4 questions of mine in one wisdom-filled sentence.

[+Team Dromomania]

Is there a form letter or a sample letter for asking for permissions from some land stewarts? If so, just point your finger and I'll head there. Thanks in advance.

[+WARedBear]

Also, the urban caches...do you ask the store owner if it is in the parking lot or landscaping of the establishment?

 

Thanks!

Jenn in AZ

Yes, you need to get the owners permission if you are going to place it on private property. We have a town close by (don't want to give it away) with no caches. I e-mailed the tourist board, explained to them geocaching, gave them web addresses to cities that promote geocaching by having a page dedicated to showing the caches in their area, and explained what I wanted to do. The idea was presented at a city meeting and I received permission to cache their city. Boy...that was easy... I went this way because of where I want to place the caches. I haven't read the cache hiding policy lately but I think it states that if the area is open to the public...like a parking lot (not promoting a parking lot cache in anyway ) then it is okay to place it there.

[+Criminal]

Who do you go to to get permission to hide a cache on public land?  There is a lot of state and federal land in Arizona that would be awesome for caching, but I don't know how to go about asking permission.  Also, the urban caches...do you ask the store owner if it is in the parking lot or landscaping of the establishment?

 

Thanks!

Jenn in AZ

The information in your profile is a bit thin, so it's tough to tell where you live. It looks like you cache in CO mostly though.

 

Why would you ask permission? Do you ask permission to throw a frisbee there?

Do you ask permission to use the park's outhouse?

 

Do a search on "permission", it comes up a lot and is a topic of much derision

Edited June 22, 2005 by Criminal

[+fly46]

Criminal. I can't believe you just said that.

 

Let me repeat myself. Most places public land usage policy allows for people to come on the land, do their thing, and then take all of their stuff with them when they go. Geocaching requires you to go on land not owned by you and leave a container behind.

 

With that said, many places have certain regulations regarding caching... For instance, Metro parks here in Nashville will allow you to place caches anywhere within reason (endangered plants, near the nests/burroughs/etc of endangered animals are no-nos, etc) and they ask that you check your cache once a month to verify that there's not a geo-trail forming to get the cache. In comparason, land owned by the Army corp of engineers was given blanket permission for geocaching after the first person asked and now we don't have to ask anymore to place caches there.

 

There are many reasons why it's good to ask. Some cities require certain notification of caches. Besides, if you permission and people know that you have a cache out somewhere, it's much less likely to result in the bomb squad.

[+Renegade Knight]

Criminal. I can't believe you just said that.

 

Let me repeat myself. Most places public land usage policy allows for people to come on the land, do their thing, and then take all of their stuff with them when they go. Geocaching requires you to go on land not owned by you and leave a container behind....

Geocaching is harmless. In the rare case it's not is fixed quicly and easily.

 

Many parks have no policy on geocaching and don't want' to to have one. Those that do want one will develop one. For public lands I'm with Criminal. Unless they have decided to complicate their lives by creating a policiy for a harmless land use activity there is no need for us to complicate their lives by bothering them for permission.

 

There are many park activites that leave litter behind. They are not banned or regulated. Geocaching has less impact than that and we tend to clean up behind them. Also all geocaches are temporary as are all other items people bring to a park. The sole exception that I'm aware of is the Original Tribute cache since that's a monument.

[+Thot]

There are many park activites that leave litter behind.  They are not banned or regulated. 

This is not a challenge or a “Huh, prove that” remark. I’m really curious.

 

What are some examples of permitted park activities that leave litter behind which isn’t in trash containers or doesn’t degrade/deteriorate in a fairly short time?

 

I’m having a mental block. I can’t think of any.

[+hometeachin]

Talk to your local approver if you have a site in mind. My approver answered about 4 questions of mine in one wisdom-filled sentence.

What's a local approver? I haven't seen this yet.

 

Thanks,

[+hometeachin]

Arizona has state trust lands that allow geocaching but you have to pay a yearly fee to use the lands. Most western states have state trust lands, but Arizona feels the need to charge for access.

 

The BLM allows geocaching on it's lands as does the forest service (some Wilderness areas don't). You have an Arizona users group that could help fill you in on any rules that parks may or may not have.

Thanks! I will have to look into the usage fee--I am assuming it is different than the $5.00 fee we have to pay for daily use.

 

I will look for the AZ users group, too. I have been a member of gc for a while, but just got my GPS and started caching not long ago, so I am a newbie still. I was naive to think this was the only caching website available!!

 

Thanks again!

[+hometeachin]

Yes, you need to get the owners permission if you are going to place it on private property. We have a town close by (don't want to give it away) with no caches. I e-mailed the tourist board, explained to them geocaching, gave them web addresses to cities that promote geocaching by having a page dedicated to showing the caches in their area, and explained what I wanted to do. The idea was presented at a city meeting and I received permission to cache their city. Boy...that was easy... I went this way because of where I want to place the caches. I haven't read the cache hiding policy lately but I think it states that if the area is open to the public...like a parking lot (not promoting a parking lot cache in anyway ) then it is okay to place it there.

I did know you had to get permission from owners for private property placement, but I didn't phrase the question properly. I suppose I should ask the people that have placed them, I suppose. I was wondering if you should go into the establishment and talk to the manager or would a letter to the owner be more appropriate?

 

As to the blanket city approval--great!!

 

Thanks,

[+WARedBear]

Talk to your local approver if you have a site in mind. My approver answered about 4 questions of mine in one wisdom-filled sentence.

What's a local approver? I haven't seen this yet.

 

Thanks,

The volunteer cachers who approve the caches in your area. You can look at the bottom of the cache pages in your area to see who they are.

[+hometeachin]

The information in your profile is a bit thin, so it's tough to tell where you live. It looks like you cache in CO mostly though.

 

Why would you ask permission? Do you ask permission to throw a frisbee there?

Do you ask permission to use the park's outhouse?

 

Do a search on "permission", it comes up a lot and is a topic of much derision

Sorry about the profile--I have added a bit more, now. I cached on a road trip through Colorado.

 

I ask permission because I want to follow the rules--I've always been that way--good marks on "plays well with others" and "follows directions" on my grade school report card, too. Anyway, I want to have all of my t's crossed if anyone should question me for placement of a cache.

 

And sorry if I brought something up that is controversial. Didn't mean to.

 

Thanks,

[+WARedBear]

[quote I did know you had to get permission from owners for private property placement, but I didn't phrase the question properly. I suppose I should ask the people that have placed them, I suppose. I was wondering if you should go into the establishment and talk to the manager or would a letter to the owner be more appropriate?

 

As to the blanket city approval--great!!

 

Thanks,

This comes from the tutorial on "Hiding Your First Cache"

 

"Will it be on private or public land? - If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there! If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules. You will be in violation of federal regulation by placing a cache in any area administered by the National Park Service (US). The National Park regulations are intended to protect the fragile environment, and historical and cultural areas found in the parks."

[+hometeachin]

The volunteer cachers who approve the caches in your area. You can look at the bottom of the cache pages in your area to see who they are.

 

Thanks! I will!

[+WARedBear]

The volunteer cachers who approve the caches in your area. You can look at the bottom of the cache pages in your area to see who they are.

 

Thanks! I will!

Correction....look on the bottom of the cache pages you have placed. I thought it was on all cache pages but it is not...

 

Sorry about that.

[+Criminal]

Criminal. I can't believe you just said that.

 

Let me repeat myself. Most places public land usage policy allows for people to come on the land, do their thing, and then take all of their stuff with them when they go. Geocaching requires you to go on land not owned by you and leave a container behind.

 

With that said, many places have certain regulations regarding caching... For instance, Metro parks here in Nashville will allow you to place caches anywhere within reason (endangered plants, near the nests/burroughs/etc of endangered animals are no-nos, etc) and they ask that you check your cache once a month to verify that there's not a geo-trail forming to get the cache. In comparason, land owned by the Army corp of engineers was given blanket permission for geocaching after the first person asked and now we don't have to ask anymore to place caches there.

 

There are many reasons why it's good to ask. Some cities require certain notification of caches. Besides, if you permission and people know that you have a cache out somewhere, it's much less likely to result in the bomb squad.

You should believe it. I won’t ask, ever.

 

I'm not interested in "most places", just the ones where I play. I am not aware of any prohibition here in WA except the NPS. State parks, city parks, land of unknown ownership, and NFS land are all open.

 

I will never ask permission to do anything that is not specifically forbidden, geocaching or not.

[+GibsonCRG]

I'm not interested in "most places" ... [snip] ... land of unknown ownership [is] open. 

I'm truly interested about what constitutes "land of unknown ownership." It seems like a catch-all for any land that isn't fenced with a "private - no trespassing" sign every 50', if you choose to look at it that way. So, do consider that anything with no obvious signs to simply be "open," or do you make some effort to determine if a given area is private or public?

 

I realize this can be looked at as a "I'd rather ask for forgiveness than permission" sort of argument, but after reading the "credo" of geocaching.com, it feels like they are asking geocachers to come down solidly on the "get permission" side of that question when things are not obvious.

 

..Chris..

[+briansnat]

will never ask permission to do anything that is not specifically forbidden, geocaching or not.

 

I'm with Criminal on this. I have a fundimental problem with the idea of begging my government for permission to do something that is legal and relatively harmless.

[+Criminal]

I'm truly interested about what constitutes "land of unknown ownership." It seems like a catch-all for any land that isn't fenced with a "private - no trespassing" sign every 50', if you choose to look at it that way. So, do consider that anything with no obvious signs to simply be "open," or do you make some effort to determine if a given area is private or public?

 

I realize this can be looked at as a "I'd rather ask for forgiveness than permission" sort of argument, but after reading the "credo" of geocaching.com, it feels like they are asking geocachers to come down solidly on the "get permission" side of that question when things are not obvious.

 

..Chris..

I will always make a good faith effort to determine the owner of a parcel of land. My first cache is on the beach, just at the high water line. Who owns it? I don't know or care. It's been there long enough I think I have some easement rights now.

 

Another permission thread here.

[+GibsonCRG]

Another permission thread here.

Good heavens - I actually took the time to read that prior thread (well, about 75% of it). This issue has certainly been thrashed to death in the past. Valid points (as well as some very thinly stretched logic) on both sides, and as the sport's popularity increases (along with the impacts of the players on the land) I'm sure the dynamic between "permission" and "forgiveness" will continue to evolve.

 

It's still a blast to play the game; I'll have to wrestle with the issues of placement after I get a bit more experience and go for placing my first cache.

 

..Chris..

[+Renegade Knight]

There are many park activites that leave litter behind.  They are not banned or regulated. 

This is not a challenge or a “Huh, prove that” remark. I’m really curious.

 

What are some examples of permitted park activities that leave litter behind which isn’t in trash containers or doesn’t degrade/deteriorate in a fairly short time?

 

I’m having a mental block. I can’t think of any.

First littering is not allowed. We both know that. But walk through any park and look around... Take dogs for example....

 

When I was around for when they set up the Boise River Festiaval and some events in Sun Valley I was amazed that the means they used to set up the buildings was very large stakes that would be pounded into the ground or asphalt. The city would have to come back later with a landscaping crew to fix broken sprinkler pipes and plug the holes in the asphalt. Events had a direct cost to the city.

 

True not many activites intensionaly leave behind items as a function of what they do like geocaching does with a hidden container. However by comparison geocaching is more harmless than many allowed activites.

 

Oh, do they really get al the eggs on easter egg hunts?

[+briansnat]

What are some examples of permitted park activities that leave litter behind which isn’t in trash containers or doesn’t degrade/deteriorate in a fairly short time?

 

 

Judging from all the tree stands in varying stages of decay that I find in the woods, along with empty shotgun shells, I'd have to say hunting.

Edited June 23, 2005 by briansnat

[+briansnat]

Is there a form letter or a sample letter for asking for permissions from some land stewarts?  If so, just point your finger and I'll head there.  Thanks in advance.

I put this one together a while a go and some people liked it:

 

Dear _______:

 

I'm writing to request permission to place a geocache in _______. If you are

not familiar with the term geocache, it's the focal point of a sport called geocaching.

Geocaching entails a person hiding a small container (the geocache), usually

containing a log book and trinkets, then using a Global Positioning System receiver

(GPSr) to mark the longititude and latitude of the geocache. The coordinates are

then published on the Internet to allow others to find it.

 

Geocaching is a fun, family oriented activity that has the benefit of getting

people outdoors and introducing them to areas of historic, natural, or scenic interest.

 

Managers of many parks and nature preserves have determined that geocaching is a

beneficial, low impact activity and encourage the sport on their lands. They see the

additional visitors and increased exposure that geocaching brings as a plus.

Similarly, geocachers often discover exciting new places through the sport,

while getting exercise and gaining an appreciation for these areas.

 

I believe that ________ is one of the special places that would be of interest

to geocachers and would like to explore the possibility of my placing a

geocache there. Please contact me at_________ to discuss this.

 

Thank You,

 

[+Team Cotati]

I don't recgonize any of the posters on this topic as approvers, are there any?

[+Team Dromomania]

Thank you for that sample letter. That will make a good base for what I wanted to say in my letter to a private land stewart. I figure the worst they could say was NO.

[cinnamongirl]

briansnat, great letter. Shall I be the first to request that this thread be pinned so others can easily find this invaluable tool? Otherwise, to TPTB: please include a link to this letter in the appropriate area of the FAQ.

 

Thanks a whole bunch! I've copied it into Notepad and will keep it on file for the eventual time I wish to place my first cache.

 

Gosh, you guys are great!

[+Team Dromomania]

Just a thought. Although most public places will allow geocaches, some parks will not allow anything which is for profit. My guess is that Premium Member caches would be excluded from these areas since one must pay to become a member. Has this been brought up before?

[+Criminal]

I still like my letter more:

 

 

Dear ______________

 

I intend to place a geocache in _________ park. As per applicable rules, I am requesting permission for this placement. Please don’t construe “requesting” to imply that I believe I need your permission. The Frisbee players, kite flyers, picnickers, and jungle-gymers do not request your permission to engage in their respective activities, so it should be obvious where I stand on this issue. I won’t mention that the teenage copulaters, dope smokers, and fudgepackers do not request permission to use the park for their activities either. Insofar as my “request” is concerned, please accept that it is merely a formality and that I will place the geocache regardless of your objections, if any.

 

It should be noted though, that geocachers are generally a great bunch of folks. We routinely clean up trash in the parks and on the trails as we make our way to and from the cache. Additionally, we dilute the population of undesirables by introducing good, law abiding citizens into the parks, myself notwithstanding.

 

Please understand that I make this nonsensical request with the best intentions. I would never pick the lock on the storage shed and let the air out of all the basketballs in retribution just because you remove my cache container, but know that I could.

 

V/R

 

Criminal (Charter Throbbing Member)

[+Team Cotati]

Just a thought. Although most public places will allow geocaches, some parks will not allow anything which is for profit. My guess is that Premium Member caches would be excluded from these areas since one must pay to become a member. Has this been brought up before?

How is it that the cache owner makes a profit from their cache placement?

[+tozainamboku]

Just a thought. Although most public places will allow geocaches, some parks will not allow anything which is for profit. My guess is that Premium Member caches would be excluded from these areas since one must pay to become a member. Has this been brought up before?

I've heard of cases where in order to get permission a cache was made into a members only cache as this would reduce the number of visits and supposedly would limit visits to more experienced geocachers that would know better than to damage foliage when searching for the cache.

[+Team Dromomania]

Just a thought.  Although most public places will allow geocaches, some parks will not allow anything which is for profit.  My guess is that Premium Member caches would be excluded from these areas since one must pay to become a member.  Has this been brought up before?

I've heard of cases where in order to get permission a cache was made into a members only cache as this would reduce the number of visits and supposedly would limit visits to more experienced geocachers that would know better than to damage foliage when searching for the cache.

That's a very valid reason and I've used the same reasoning on other post. And as far as profit - the owner gets none but payment must be made for the membership so a profit is made by the listing agent. My point was that some areas won't allow caching if it is "for profit".

 

If this has never come up before then I assume it really isn't an issue.

[+briansnat]

My point was that some areas won't allow caching if it is "for profit".

 

Most activities result in someone making a profit. Those hiking boots? Rachlie made a chunk of change. Birder? You paid someone for those binoculars. Hunter? Browning raked in some bucks.

 

Geocaching, per se, is not a for profit activity. Of course a certain listing service does make a profit from it, but don't confuse Geocaching.com with geocaching.

[+halffast]

Im not going to do that again...I just wanted to print out the page so I had Both briansnat & Criminals Forms So I could send briansnat in and if they said no I could send in Criminals next but ended up with 17 pages .I know next time to just write it down.Both are good forms.

[Rockaria]

I was geocaching in a 7,000 acre MA state reservation today, and before I started I was talking to one of the park rangers. She was well aware that several caches had been hidden in the reservation, but not one cache owner had approached them to get permission first. Her concern was for people going off the trails. That was the main thing. She said that it has gotten so bad that some areas had trails that weren't even "official," because people just made their own shortcuts and over time, presto - a new trail had been created. NOT GOOD!! In her view, over time this will have a severely negative impact on the vegetation. In one of the posts describing one person's "find" that I was reading after I got home, sure enough - one person said "I parked the car and just followed the GPS, I went right through the woods and found the cache." It's people like this that will destroy a pristine area over time, and that is what the rangers are most upset about. I saw several signs today that said "Please stay on the trails!" So, if people don't ask permission about where to place a cache, this is why it upsets the rangers - people just bushwack unnecessarily. If the hider had approached the ranger in the first place, and asked "where can I place this cache so it doesn't have a negative impact on the park?" then they would be much happier. I don't think this will have much impact on a lot of areas (city parks with lots of open space, playgrounds, urban areas of course), but I urge anyone placing a cache in a large state forest or park to get permission from the ranger first!!

[+Isonzo Karst]

Rockaria, rangers can't give permission for cache placement. They are at the bottom of the bureaucratic food chain. If you're going to ask permission ask at the appropriate level, which will be at HQ from the park/forest manager. BTW, I'm with Criminal on this one: ie. I never initiate contact with a public land manager - however if a policy is in place, I comply.

[+briansnat]

That was the main thing. She said that it has gotten so bad that some areas had trails that weren't even "official," because people just made their own shortcuts and over time, presto - a new trail had been created. NOT GOOD!! In her view, over time this will have a severely negative impact on the vegetation.

 

Many rangers are just ill informed about geocaching. Many of these "trails" that they say were caused by geocachers were game trails or social trails that were there before the cache. Most geocachers take the path of least resistance when traveling into the brush and this is often an existing trail, official or not. It may look to the casual observer like the cache caused the trail, when in fact the trail is the reason the cache is there.

 

Second, in many areas the more remote caches, ones deep in these parks and forests often don't get a heck of a lot of visitors. A handful over the course of a year. Park rangers have visions of hordes of people visiting these caches every weekend and that simply isn't true in most cases.

 

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but in my close to 500 cache hunts, I've seen very few caches that had impact beyond a few broken branches and maybe a decaying stump that had been pulled apart.

 

Bushwacking per se isn't a bad thing. Hunters, wildlife photographers, orienteers and birdwatchers all do it. The problem occurs when the use is concentrated and trails develop.

 

Its been my experience that caches close to trails cause far more problems that ones placed far off the trail. If a cache is close to a trail, use is concentrated as people tend to turn off in pretty much the same spot and follow the same route. If the cache is far enough from a trail the impact is spread out over a much wider area and it has time to recover. Still, if a park has a "stay on the trail" rule, then stay on the trail.

Edited October 1, 2005 by briansnat

[+Frodo13]

She said that it has gotten so bad that some areas had trails that weren't even "official," because people just made their own shortcuts and over time, presto - a new trail had been created. NOT GOOD!!

I agree that it is difficult to know whom to ask, but the local badge carrier, IMHO, is not the one.

 

With the comment on use of public land...

 

So at what time and to what authority did all of the trails in all of the parks in all of the states become "Official" was there a national trail freeze day I missed? Trails were created by people who wanted to get from here to there, where ever there was - a waterfall, a creek, a mountain, etc. If we hermitically seal off all of the parks so no new trails can be made, no new litter dropped, no single branch snapped off it would be better than our current system? The extreme is putting all the animals in zoo to protect them from themselves. Parks are for people, as well as animals - heck we are animals. I realize this is the extreme but its happening in lots of places where people are unsure, uninformed, unimaginative with regards to public land use. Those three words are very important, each one of them Public – Land – Use. I am getting off the small box now.

Edited October 1, 2005 by Frodo13

[Rockaria]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm still very new to all of this - I've only been doing it for about 5 or 6 weeks now, but if the Ranger I spoke to yesterday, who was very nice, said that nobody had asked for permission to place a cache in their 7,000 acre Reserve, don't you think that she'd be aware of some "higher up" in the Park System giving permission or being asked? In other words, she made it sound as if nobody had approached anyone in the system whatsoever, and I thought that was rule #1 when placing a cache! GET PERMISSION.

 

If there is "red tape" involved, or the possibility of somebody in the park system denying a request, well then I would think that it might not be a good place to put a cache. Shouldn't we be respectful of the rangers? The one I spoke to yesterday was fully aware of geocaching, she said a member of her staff was an avid geocacher, so I'm sure that they know what goes on. She knew that thousands of people weren't out there every day doing it in her park. She went on to say that it's a double-edged sword. It's great because it gets people (like me) out into the parks, but that lots of idiots do trample over saplings and over time erosion can occur in delicate areas. These are things that some people might not even realize - to them it's just a "walk through the woods," or a "shortcut." And yes - of course it's not just geocachers out there - birdwatchers, kids drinking beer, etc. But if we can all be aware of the rules a bit more, maybe we'd all be better off in the long run?

[+Team Neos]

Rockaria,

I would advise that you take a few minutes to send private emails to the cache owners and the local reviewer to let them know that there are concerns about the cache placement permissions in the park--just be careful how you do it --You don't want to sound like you are trying to tell the cache owners how to manage their hides, or like you are just angry because you couldn't find a cache because it didn't have a hint-Just stick to the facts (You went to the park, talked to the ranger, she said this and that).

 

I read through the logs on the two you found and the one that you did not find in the park and it looks like those are some nice hides. Some of them date back far enough in time that geocaching wasn't really very popular when they were placed, and no one had really considered the need to ask permission to place caches in public parks yet. One had 123 visits in the almost five years that it has been there. Most of the people who say that they bushwacked to the cache were obvious newbies with just a handful of caches to theor credit, so perhaps the wording on the pages about staying on the trails does need to be stronger, or maybe the cache owners will want to include a trail map with the cache info, etc. That is the kind of proactive action that the cache owners could take to keep the rangers and the caching community at peace with each other.

 

There obviously aren't any real problems with the hides, and they have drawn many people to the park. The ranger obviously knew about the perks of having caches on park property. But if they are starting to be concerned, it is time that some experienced geocaching group talks to the park managers to work out a policy before the park managers do decide that they have to create an official policy. Is there a local geocaching group that is active about getting together in your area? Or a long time cacher--or even a reviewer?

 

I say this because my area lost 50 nice hides in a great hiking park earlier this year. I would hate to see that happen in your area, too.

[+robert]

Rockaria, rangers can't give permission for cache placement. They are at the bottom of the bureaucratic food chain. If you're going to ask permission ask at the appropriate level, which will be at HQ from the park/forest manager.

In Maryland State Parks, the Ranger is the one to ask... (s)he is also the one who manages the park.

[+Criminal]

...I thought that was rule #1 when placing a cache! GET PERMISSION.

 

You thought wrong. The first rule of geocaching is finding an interesting location. There is no 'requirement' to get permission unless the park has published a policy to the contrary. If MA has a policy requiring permission, get it, if they do not, don't.

 

...it has gotten so bad that some areas had trails that weren't even "official," because people just made their own shortcuts and over time, presto - a new trail had been created. NOT GOOD!! In her view, over time this will have a severely negative impact on the vegetation...

 

When the park service begins terminating the wildlife that has, to date, refused all orders to walk only on the trails, I'll worry about where my fat foot lands. I find this ‘selective enforcement’ disturbing.

 

...but I urge anyone placing a cache in a large state forest or park to get permission from the ranger first!!

 

I urge the opposite (unless there is a published policy). Use common sense, the same degree of common sense that would help you find your way out of a shopping bag were someone to put one over your head, and your cache hide should be fine.

[Rockaria]

Criminal - I just copied and pasted this from the geocaching.com "Hiding Your First Geocache" page: http://www.geocaching.com/about/hiding.aspx

 

Will it be on private or public land? If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules.

 

So which is it? Are we supposed to ignore the managing agency, or follow the geocaching.com advice? Nobody seems to be on the same page in these forums, it's very confusing. I hate to sound like a dweeb, but seriously - why should we just blatantly go against the wishes of both the geocaching.com web site AND a Park Ranger? Just so we can continue to cache away to our heart's content? Seems a bit selfish. Again, I'm still very new to all of this but it seems like we can compromise - it's not like the rangers are the "bad guys," are they?

[+Criminal]

My problem with asking permission where there is no published policy is this; if the person you contact does not know about geocaching, does not know if there even is a policy, or is simply too damnn lazy to find out, they will give the default answer, which is no. Then the onus is on you to either disregard their blithering idiocy, or go over their head. If you place the cache with care it will not likely cause any problems.

 

There have been reports of officials who didn’t want to know either way, they would actually prefer not to be asked or told anything about geocaches.

 

If you can throw a frisbee there, or engage in other common park type activities without prior permission, it has long been my policy (yes, I have a few policies of my own) that geocaching is not a concern.

 

…why should we just blatantly go against the wishes of both the geocaching.com web site AND a Park Ranger…

 

The GCing policy as I understand it is this: If permission is required, get it. This leaves it up to you to interpolate if that permission is actually required or not. If there is no policy, then no permission is required.

 

…it's not like the rangers are the "bad guys," are they?

 

No, they are not the bad guys, but they are gubbermint employees. They are also low rung on the ladder. They DO NOT make policy, they only enforce previously enacted policy. If there is no policy, there is nothing to enforce.

Edited October 2, 2005 by Criminal

[fangirlbob]

In my little newbie attemt to find out who to ask if I can place my first cache in a lovely state park, or if I needed to at all, I went to Michigan's state website and entered "geocache" into the search box. Presto!, one and only one hit- the form for non-event state land use. Geocache is acctually listed on the form as one of the choices for type of use. Tried the same thing with the rail-trails, no hits on the search, but I know there are some on them, so I won't bother with permision there I guess. I love it here on the fence.

[+the hermit crabs]

In my little newbie attemt to find out who to ask if I can place my first cache in a lovely state park, or if I needed to at all, I went to Michigan's state website and entered "geocache" into the search box.  Presto!, one and only one hit- the form for non-event state land use.  Geocache is acctually listed on the form as one of the choices for type of use.  Tried the same thing with the rail-trails, no hits on the search, but I know there are some on them, so I won't bother with permision there I guess.  I love it here on the fence. 

You might be interested in this forum thread, which discusses the Michigan State Parks & Recreation Bureau Geocaching Policy.

 

The MiGO page also has some information about hiding caches in Michigan state parks.

[+briansnat]

There have been reports of officials who didn’t want to know either way, they would actually prefer not to be asked or told anything about geocaches

 

This is true. There are many park managers who are familiar with geocaching and

let it go on with a wink and a nod. By doing this, they are giving it their tacit approval.

 

But if you approach them and demand offical sanction for your cache, that changes things. Now there has to be a policy and too often you ain't going to like the policy.

 

It was a well meaning geocacher who asked permission that led to a geocaching policy in NY state parks. It went on for years there and the rangers knew about it. Most were cool with it. Now that there is a policy things have changed and not for the better.

[+Isonzo Karst]

Rockaria, I'll second what briansnat said - here are two examples. A couple of years ago a cacher approached the largest land manager in west central Florida about their geocaching policy. There were numerous caches on their properties already. When asked about policy they decided they needed to promulgate one. In the interim they contacted GC.com and asked that no new caches be listed. The policy formulation took just over two years. The policy was identical to existing GC.com cache requirements with a permit to be pulled - it looks like a mortgage app, runs to 30+ pages. Costs the geocacher nothing, has to cost the taxpayers plenty. It's intimidating enough that exactly 3 permits have been pulled since Jan 05.

 

Example 2 - a cacher decided to contact 2 different parks about their geocaching policy. One said, we don't have a policy, we know there are caches in the parks, please follow the park rules (huzzah) the other said - we don't allow geocaching. Now there are a lot of caches in the "we don't allow geocaching" parks. Was the cacher who asked prepared to follow up? Ask higher up, seek a meeting? do anything besides publish this apparent policy on the local boards? NOPE. Now the local cache reviewer is in a bind - ignore the possibility that land manager really doesn't want caches in the parks - or follow up himself (like he has time, or lives anywhere nearby).

 

If you're gonna ask, please be prepared to follow up! And if someone says no (or yes) ask yourself, is this actually the person with the authority to make this decision? Personally, as a taxpayer, I'd say YOU have the authority to make use of public lands.

[+Artemis]

Who do you go to to get permission to hide a cache on public land? There is a lot of state and federal land in Arizona that would be awesome for caching, but I don't know how to go about asking permission. Also, the urban caches...do you ask the store owner if it is in the parking lot or landscaping of the establishment?

 

Thanks!

Jenn in AZ

In Arizona you can place a geocache on most BLM land as long as you get there permission first. Anything left behind for more then 72 hours without the permission of the BLM office is litter and you can be fined for it.

 

Wilderness areas in Arizona can be maintained by BLM, State, or National agencies and it will depend on who maintains it as to the cache rules.

 

Maricopa County Parks and Recreation require permission to place a cache within any park they maintain.

 

Tribal land, Indian lands, are off limits. Without permission from the tribe, a geocache cannot be listed.

 

Military property is off limits without express permission from the Commanding officer.

 

National Park service land is off limits.

 

State trust land, managed by the State trust office, allows geocaching with a permit. The permit is not for geocaching, it is to use the land for many different reasons. Hunting, Off road travel, fishing, camping ect. You can get a state trust permit in either Phoenix or in Tucson. The fee is $15 per year for an individual permit or $20 per year for a family license.

 

Hope this helps, feel free to contact me anytime.

 

Artemis

Volunteer cache reviewer, Arizona.