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Yerocrg

Owning A Benchmark?

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I would like to collect benchmarks. However, I am not sure of where I can get them. First, I know you can't just order them or buy them. Should I ask a surveyor if he has any? What are the circumstances to ask permission to remove a benchmark? ;)

 

 

Yerocrg

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Sure can order then or buy them. The cache is they are not really anything more than a brass disk until a Surveyor stamps the info on them and places them. (Or vice versa)

 

If you really want to collect them, be in the right place at the right time. When construction comes through and tears them out, if you ask the right person they may let you take the old ones.

 

Sources to go to. The City Engineer, The County Surveyor, The State DOT, etc.

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I meant I want to collect used benchmarks, you know, with all of the history, "This benchmark was on the south-east corner of the building were so-and-so". So the town engineer should have some?

 

Yerocrg

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Where I was going with that is that to get them you have to get them when they are "destroyed". Normaly they are destroyed due to construction of roadways, strips malls, renovatoins etc. Once removed their location is worthless and another one will be set to replace it.

 

To collect them you will need a nose for when and where construction is going on and you will want to be in the know with the surveyors who will be working on the project. The one replacing the benchmark is the best source. The catch 22 is that if they collect them, they are going to claim first dibs.

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I would like to collect benchmarks. However, I am not sure of where I can get them. First, I know you can't just order them or buy them. Should I ask a surveyor if he has any? What are the circumstances to ask permission to remove a benchmark? ;)

 

 

Yerocrg

You cannot remove a Bench Mark. Find something else to collect as these are very costly to replace and not for someone to collect. You would be a thief, nothing more.

 

These are the result of very costly survey work some dating back to the 1800's. They are valuable resource to the public at large.

 

There are criminal penalty's for disturbing them as with any other public or private property.

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If you want to make your own (I did ;) ), check out Berntsen. They make the real thing. Of course what it sounds like you want is one that has some history behind it and such. This wouldn't be the case with one that you ordered. But given the options, I think it is the next best thing.

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I am very fortunate to have a brother in the highway construction industry all of his life. To make along story short after explaining to him about benchmarking Xmas before last he showed me a bucket full of them, the they had removed over the years for road improvements. He had simply collected them over the years. The engineers, and surveyors on the job site never knew what to do with them either so he kept them.

 

A lot of them were local, or state marks not in the NGS data base or on Geocaching.com list. I have gone to the geocaching.com site and reported them as destroyed .for those that he has.

 

He has no plans to turn loose of any of them he can remember why each one was removed, and yes he likes the history to.

 

It does happen , whether legal or not who knows state surveyors were overseeing each job site ……………. JOE

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I echo Mike's (elcamino's) sentiment but to clear up any confusion as to what he meant, If you come across one of these monuments in it's original position, as placed by Geodetic Surveying Crews, it is where it needs to be and is illegal to remove them. Please do not disturb it. While it does say $250 for the fine on many discs, I have heard of instances of it costing the modern day equivalent of reaccomplishing the work, and that can exceed $200/hr and several days time. They could also just fine more for the fun of it.

 

Yes these Monuments do sometimes become disturbed during the many processes of construction but that is Happenstance. More the exception than the rule. Just as many are located and protected as well. More important than the exceptions to this rule, is the rule. All the digging we need to do is just to expose the Brass disc at the top of the monument, if buried. No further digging is required. If there is said to be an underground mark with the station, trust that the monumenting surveyor put one there, and know that if the surface mark is in place, so goes the underground one. In any case, Please leave them as you find them.

 

Thanks, Rob

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I would like to collect benchmarks. However, I am not sure of where I can get them. First, I know you can't just order them or buy them. Should I ask a surveyor if he has any? What are the circumstances to ask permission to remove a benchmark? :rolleyes:

 

 

Yerocrg

You cannot remove a Bench Mark. Find something else to collect as these are very costly to replace and not for someone to collect. You would be a thief, nothing more.

 

These are the result of very costly survey work some dating back to the 1800's. They are valuable resource to the public at large.

 

There are criminal penalty's for disturbing them as with any other public or private property.

I meant collecting them legally

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Hi,

 

It wouldn't have the history of an old benchmark, but check out this page for a cool idea on placing a benchmark of your own and tracking visitors to it.

 

nfa-jamie

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A little late for the holiday season, but you can order custom-stamped benchmark disks from Berntsen's online catalogue for gift-giving or ego gratification.

 

For example, if I understand their pricing correctly, you could order item RBH4325BR 3 1/4” Domed cap for 1/2” Rebar (Bronze) for $22.15 + $30 stamping fee. (Stamping charge waived for orders of 12 or more).

 

The catalogue also features souvenir items (replica of mile high disk, for example), tools, and other goodies. Worth browsing.

 

-ArtMan-

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Thanks for the suggestions, NFA and ArtMan. I may try placing a custom benchmark. Would I submit it as a cache? :huh:

 

Yerocrg

Edited by Yerocrg

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Thanks for the suggestions, NFA and ArtMan. I may try placing a custom benchmark. Would I submit it as a cache? :huh:

 

Yerocrg

GPS-Fun.com sells the benchmarks and has a logging feature built into the site. The benchmarks cost $9 apiece, and we've already given a number away, and sold a couple (see this page) for details.

 

nfa-jamie

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NFA:

Are any of the GPS-Fun Benchmarks placed? I could not find any on the map. How can you set/place these?

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I would like to collect benchmarks. However, I am not sure of where I can get them. First, I know you can't just order them or buy them. Should I ask a surveyor if he has any? What are the circumstances to ask permission to remove a benchmark? B)

 

 

Yerocrg

You cannot remove a Bench Mark. Find something else to collect as these are very costly to replace and not for someone to collect. You would be a thief, nothing more.

 

These are the result of very costly survey work some dating back to the 1800's. They are valuable resource to the public at large.

 

There are criminal penalty's for disturbing them as with any other public or private property.

good lord...lighten up.

 

Yero...see my thread entitled "My newest aquisition". It' usually a matter of happen stance, finding them in the process of being destroyed, and then calling the surveyors office, like i did.

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4leafclover,

I have read your thread. That's what gave me the idea. I registered on the Ohio forum thing just to read that thread, but it wasn't there. B)

 

Yerocrg

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4leafclover,

I have read your thread. That's what gave me the idea. I registered on the Ohio forum thing just to read that thread, but it wasn't there. :smile:

 

Yerocrg

Here's the link on the OKIC forums for what you're looking for. It's in the "Off Topic" OKIC forum B)

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NFA:

Are any of the GPS-Fun Benchmarks placed? I could not find any on the map. How can you set/place these?

Hi,

 

None of them are placed yet...we have 6 "benchmarks" of the gps community who have agreed to place them , and a couple of orders.

 

The benchmarks ship with instruction on placing them, both the physical process and picking a location (along with a caution to obey all laws when placing them).

 

nfa-jamie

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I meant collecting them legally

One of the ideas I have been kicking around here at NGS is to give out old destroyed marks that are sent back to us to geocachers who have submitted corrections and recoveries to the database. I won't lie, is not about to happen tomorrow... but I am working on it.

 

-Casey-

 

p.s. Never remove a mark from the ground. Ever. There are people here at NGS who are wary of the benchmark hunting because they are afraid it encourages people to steal the monuments. I don't agree with these people, but they do exist.

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4leaf,

 

Before you take exception with anyone for what was said, please let me give you a little background.

 

As a Surveyor I have seen a LOT of Vandalism to Survey Markers in My career. elcamano is a surveyor who has likely seen more than I as he is retired and I am still at it.

 

His response was not meant to be reactionary and neither was mine. He was not attempting to be insensitive either. But he and I have both seen hours and hours of our work wiped out by those who seemingly have nothing better to do. I am not saying, nor implying that this case is a similar case at all, but it is instructive to remember that many many people do read the forums and if they ever wondered about this concept, now they know. Survey markers when taken as a whole are fragile objects and some are more so than others. A good bit of our work is about protecting and preserving them, and so it goes.

 

When taken in context of this question, the question did leave a lot to the imagination before it became fleshed out a bit better, later in the thread. A Surveyor who has seen more than one illegal benchmark collector in their time will naturally respond in such a way to caution anyone to not disturb the survey markers. From our perspective it is not light, it is thousands of dollars worth of many man hours of work, and then it is gone, possibly adding difficulty to our jobs as well as other ramifications. Imagine a multi million dollar study being conducted on the basis of some specific Survey Monuments and during the procees, or after, one of the stations which was a basis for the study is taken. This does happen. You might be surprised, some people in the world do dig them up, or remove the disc from the monument, and in so doing are not doing anyone any favors. You just haven't lived until you see a survey station being worn as Jewelry. I have. Of course I am sure it is more disheartening to a surveyor, but if you see the logo emblem which is missing off your car around someone's neck, you would likely get the same feel. As an alternative example, None of us would be very happy to look out and find that someone has obliterated our mailbox with pumpkins, or run it over with a car. Yet the work and costs of replacing the mailbox is far much less than the replacement of a survey monument. Ultimately nothing is for free.

 

In the simplest possible terms. These are not meant to be collected, and when someone finds that they can obtain one for themselves, it is an exception to the rule, not the rule. I thank those who DO go to the trouble and channels to make sure it is ok to remove them, as that is the right thing to do.

 

Yes this is not the case this time, but the fact is, this sort of thing does happen. I meant no offense and I am sure elcamino meant none either.

 

Thanks for understanding,

 

Rob

Edited by evenfall

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None of them are placed yet...we have 6 "benchmarks" of the gps community who have agreed to place them , and a couple of orders.

 

The benchmarks ship with instruction on placing them, both the physical process and picking a location (along with a caution to obey all laws when placing them).

 

nfa-jamie

 

 

Thanks for the info. Sounds interesting.

 

There is a benchmark nearby that can be considered available. It is attached to a block of concrete at the base of a cliff, in the surf. It may have fallen from the cliff top years ago since this cliff is crumbling. A cache placer found it and mentioned it. When he posted a photo, it is extremely damaged from rollling around in the surf hitting rocks....A disk with the same yar of 1936 and marked RE2177 is DY2861. See my comments on my July 4 log.

4eb03ef5-49ef-474c-bf44-312fc7ec41bf.jpg

 

GCJV0K

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just mentioning that "find something else to collect" seems a bit harsh, when it was specifically stated that he wanted them legally. jmo...no big deal.

any way...I spent an hour and a half in our local surveyors office yesterday afternoon, and came away with a wealth of info regarding the placement of them in Cincinnati.

 

I also am on record as wanting any that come to the office as being destroyed (hence...a legal means of collecting them.... :D ).

Edited by 4leafclover

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What do you mean "can be considered available"? If you've followed this discussion, you know that a mark is never available for the taking without permission, no matter what condition you find it in.

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Not to beat a dead horse, but simply put:

 

Rule #1 Survey Markers are not to be construed as collectable.

 

Please do not disturb them.

 

Rule #2, Sometimes there are exceptions to the rule, but if in doubt, Please refer to rule #1.

 

Thanks,

 

Rob

Edited by evenfall

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What do you mean "can be considered available"?

 

Its not in any data base, under salt water half the time, not attached. Probably as available as the ones the guy has in a box somewhere. I have no plans to take it, and I don't think anyone would go to the trouble...its a long hike down a steep cliff....and you have to go at low tide.

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>>not in any data base

 

There are lots of government agencies with data bases that aren't on the web.

 

In this case the disk belongs to Los Angeles Co. If anybody wants to pursue the story, they should start by double-checking the coordinates in the NGS list for nearby active and destroyed marks. If no hits there, contact the LA Co. engineering department to tell them what you found.

 

Its designation seems to be SAN PEDRO HILLS ??4 in the same series as DY2861. I am straining to read the lettering in the picture. If so, it doesn't seem to be one that was included in the NGS data base, and that wouldn't be surprising at all since there are thousands to zillions of marks that weren't worked up for NGS purposes, but do serve purposes for somebody else.

 

I think the RE2177 is the license number of the Registered Engineer who set the marks, and appears both on DY2861 and the one near the water.

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Hi,

 

It wouldn't have the history of an old benchmark, but check out this page for a cool idea on placing a benchmark of your own and tracking visitors to it.

 

nfa-jamie

Wow. That's amazing.

For the last two years I was toying with getting a whole bunch of disks made that said something like "Fox Was Here: xxxx http://www.findfox.com" where xxx was a code. You went to the little site, type in the code, and pull up a blog of like, when I was there, or something. :ph34r:

 

Me.

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I've been out to the GPS-Fun Website several times and it appears to me that the only link that works is the Pay-Pal link. It seems like a fun concept but I'm not really sure the site is ready for "prime time".

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I've been out to the GPS-Fun Website several times and it appears to me that the only link that works is the Pay-Pal link. It seems like a fun concept but I'm not really sure the site is ready for "prime time".

Hi,

 

They all work fine...check your browser... :)

 

The benchmarks are a tiny part of the site, and as none have been placed yet, they are not yet loggable...but all of the GPS-recreation links are totally active, and that is what the site is mainly about.

 

Explore it for yourself, and please don't buy anything...just check out all of the cool links to help you explore the world of GPS recreation!

 

The site is non-commercial with the exception of the benchmark program which sell benchmarks for just enough to cover our expenses (nobody's making out with this site, I promise!!!)

 

nfa-jamie

Edited by NFA

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