Can A Cache Be Called Geocache?

[+º]

Can a Cache be called a Geocache if using a GPSr isn't helpful at all?

 

I'm not talking about caches which can be found without GPSr if you're clever enough - I'm talking about caches where you can leave your GPSr at home since it isn't usefull at all.

e.g. if you need some radio-equipment to find a cache and none part of the cache can be found through coordinates, is it still a geocache?

 

There's a thread in a German speaking forum about this topic. So what do you think?

 

Sorry if this is a double-post but I didn't find anything in the history/faqs

[+eddthejailer]

i have seen some in my area where the coord take you to a parking lot ez to find without gps and then you have to download topo maps and trail maps to go 2 1/2 miles from coords to geet to the cache.

[+Divine]

Some, if not many, caches I've seen are basically like that: The cache is hidden in a (well known) place where you just have to find it in the area, and GPSr doesn't necessarily help you at all. For example, the cache is hidden in a cave that is marked on area maps and mentioned in the tourist information center and brochures and is generally a known attraction in the area. So it's very easy to find the way to the cave entrance even without a GPSr, and once you're inside the cave, you can't use it without the satellite coverage, and you have to find the cache with hints only. The only part of the hunt where you can use your GPSr is the way to the cave entrance, but as described above, it's piece of cake to find the way there without it too. Some examples of such caches, some of which I've found. And all of them were great!

 

Well, are they geocaches after all? In my opinion, sure. Even if you can easily find the site without a GPSr, the hider still provides coordinates there, the place has coordinates.

 

(What I don't consider geocaches are those couch potato 'caches', which are merely riddles or puzzles that have nothing to do with going to some coordinates. But I guess that's not the topic here. I also don't think locationless caches are geocaches per se, and I don't hunt them at all, but that's even more off topic.)

[+Brianslost]

If you hide the cache. Someone will try to find it. GPSr or not.

[+SixDogTeam]

Yes, they are geocaches. but they are not GPSrcaches.

[+Divine]

Also Letterbox Hybrids allow you to leave your GPSr home. They're still geocaches.

[+The Navigatorz]

If you go to the gc.com FAQ page, they don't call them geocaches. GC.com calls them caches. A cache is a container that holds at the minimum, a logbook. Some larger caches may contain trade items.

 

So it doesn't seem to matter how the cache is found, (gps or not), that determines whether or not its called a "cache".

 

GC.com also allows variations of the game. Further down the FAQ page, they define "Offset" caches, where the coordinates take you to a historical marker, benchmark, or I suppose even a parking lot, where you gather information to continue the hunt for the cache. So by that variation, you might need your gps to find the first location, but then you can turn the gpsr off to continue and locate the final cache location. (Sounds like a puzzle multi).

[+Mopar]

Also Letterbox Hybrids allow you to leave your GPSr home. They're still geocaches.

The only way letterbox hybrids should let you leave the GPS at home is if you go look them up on a letterboxing website. The geocaching.com listing is still supposed to have the coords for the cache.

[+Divine]

Also Letterbox Hybrids allow you to leave your GPSr home. They're still geocaches.

The only way letterbox hybrids should let you leave the GPS at home is if you go look them up on a letterboxing website. The geocaching.com listing is still supposed to have the coords for the cache.

Umm...the only? No rule forbids to have the letterbox hints on the cache description page, does it? For example, this letterbox hybrid has both the coords and the hints. You can leave your GPSr at home and go search it.

[OuttaHand]

The need of a GPSr is definitely not a requirement of a cache. I've found two that did not require one at all.

One was a virtual. I had all the info I needed before I left the computer. A few Google searches and I had all the answers needed to verify the cache. (We still went to the site 'cause it sounded interesting)

The other was a real cache in a business. I know -- commercial caches are not allowed. But this one is quite unique in its theme, etc. I put the coords in a mapping program, found the likely commercial enterprise, and visited. The coords were never entered into my GPS. By the way--- that was my 100th cache and it was one of the most fun we've done.

So the NEED of a GPSr is definitely NOT a prerequisite to it being a good, or allowed, cache.

[+Team Perks]

There's a clickable, enlargeable map on every cache page. If I look at the map, and then read the description and the clues carefully, I can often find it without a GPSr. In fact, sometimes it's an added challenge.

 

Over the weekend I found a virtual cache while driving by at 50 mph...No geocache there, and I didn't even need to use a GPSr, but I still got the smiley!

[Pipanella]

I found my very first cache without a GPSr. I just looked at the map, was familiar with the cemetery, and knew there were only so many places it could be hidden. It's a very well-kept cemetery, currently in use, with very few trees and bushes. The map showed me the general area in the cemetery where the cache was located, and with the hint, I had it figured out before I even got there. Took me just a couple of minutes to find what the hint said, and from there it was just a few seconds and I located it.

[+Markwell]

If I put out a cache page with the coordinates and step-by-step instructions...

 

Start at the parking lot behind JFK High School.  At the northeast corner of the Tennis Courts (east side of the campus), you'll find a trailhead.  Follow the path until you find the orange sign.  Turn off the path to the right (south) and walk 50 feet into the brush.  You'll find an orange box at the base of the only pine tree around for 400 feet

 

Can I get Geocaching.com to list a difficulty of ?

 

Is that still a Geocache? Yes. There are coordinates. Is it a fun Geocache? Probably not the best...

Edited September 9, 2004 by Markwell

[+º]

Some of you didn't get it:

What I meant were caches which you can't find with a GPSr even if you want to. I know that a lot of of caches can be found without a GPSr but if you want to you can use for most of them your GPSr at least for a part of the way.

 

Got it?

 

So do you still think that caches where you can't use a GPSr at all (beside finding the parking lot) should be listed on gc.com?

[+Renegade Knight]

Caching is a growing sport. While it might be nice to think you always need a GPS I think there is room for a version where you can't use one if you wanted too.

 

Some people argue that a virtual isn't a cache because it doesn't have a box at the end of the hunt. Yet how geochers implement them makes them into a viable cache type different from waypoint.org and other sites.

 

So, is the radio station newshow cache a cache? I don't know but it was worth a try. Eventually something might take off and there will be a cache type that has enough elements of geocaching but makes your GPS dead weight.

 

The clues for my puzzle cache are the kind where your GPS is worthless. Maybe it will be a popular cache, maybe not. But it was worth a shot.

[+littleamerica]

So do you still think that caches where you can't use a GPSr at all (beside finding the parking lot) should be listed on gc.com?

There's kind of a continuum between caches where reception is poor at the cache site and caches where the GPS is useless altogether. Those are hairs I'm not eager to split.

 

I suppose it would be sensible to enforce a kind of purity regarding the need to use a GPS, but I don't think that's possible with the current review/approve structure.

[MOCKBA]

Yeah. For starters, ban night caches, which guide you to the location with the help of a flashlight or a blacklight. Then anything which requires compass navigation. The list of creative ideas to be supressed goes on.

[+Renegade Knight]

Cache purity? Now I wonder which is the purest cache form of them all? Where's the Jesse Owens cache when you need him?

[cezanne]

So do you still think that caches where you can't use a GPSr at all (beside finding the parking lot) should be listed on gc.com?

Quite a lot of arguments in favor of a positive answer to your question have been brought up in the German speaking subforum. You decided for some unknown reason to ignore those arguments.

 

There are many caches where a GPSr is not needed or is of no use at all expect that you might be able to reach some form of starting coordinates with it. Most of the caches belonging to this type I am aware of are nice caches that receive many positive logs.

 

What about caches in well-known caves where the starting coordinates are the coordinates of the entrance of the cave which can much more easily be found by following some sign posts than by using the GPSr (often the reception in such areas is almost non-existent)?

 

What about caches in very public places where the hider does not want the cachers to run around with the GPSr because this receives too much attention. (I already mentioned the example of the cache Platform 9 3/4 in the thread in German - note that the starting coordinates of that cache are not the coordinates of the cache, but just of the train station which is much easier to find without GPSr.)

 

What about caches in areas where the hider wishes the cachers to mind their steps (for safety reasons or for ecological reasons) and thus does not want the cachers to use their GPSr? (In such cases sometimes coordinates are given, but accompanied by a description and/or photographs and the request not to use the GPSr.)

 

What about caches in gorges where there exists no GPS-reception?

 

What about caches in urban areas with very narrow streets? You could switch on your GPS there, but typically it is useless and you are far better off with a map.

 

There are many other forms of caches where a GPSr is not helpful/meaningful which many cachers would miss a lot if they did not exist. Geocache for means that there exists a cache and that coordinates are involved, but not that I necessarily need a GPSr to access the coordinates.

 

I cannot understand which advantage it brings to you to limit the caches on gc.com to a very narrow concept. Does it increase your fun? You are still free to select the caches you want to find and you want to hide. I cannot find a single line of text on gc.com that excludes the cache types I mentioned above.

 

Would you prefer caches where some artificial stages are added? One could take, for example, a cache in a narrow street and additionally add coordinates of a place some 100 meters apart where the GPS-r is much better and which can be much more easily found with a street map. Even you would be forced to refer to such caches as caches since it will be very hard for you to distinguish caches where some form of reception exists in the target area and where this is not the case. Similar problems arise in most of the cases I listed above.

 

 

Cezanne

Edited September 9, 2004 by cezanne

[Pantalaimon]

Warning: I haven't read the above posts.

 

I once tried to submit a Web Cam cache that I wanted the finder to have general coordinate to, but then find their own way to the spot on location by using the pictures on the web that the web cam had taken.

 

It was denied because the coordinates weren't spot on for the pictures.

 

Given more time, I can relate this to your question.

[+wimseyguy]

I'm just waiting for Waldenruns to add his thought to this thread!

I agree somewhat with what is being said here, night caches, caves, hidden inside a library (with permission of course) are all good. I'm less supportive of the so-called couch potato caches though.

[cezanne]

I'm less supportive of the so-called couch potato caches though.

To clarify, I do not regard couch potato caches as caches, but the current discussion started due to a cache (hidden recently in Germany) which has not the faintest similarity to a couch potato cache.

 

Cezanne

[CoyoteRed]

We ran into something like this before.

 

If I'm reading the question right, it's a hunt that uses no coordinates what-so-ever. With no coordinates to plug into the GPS then the unit is useless in taking you to the endgame.

 

A hunt like this might be:

The above coordinates are only to reference Mytown, South Carolina, and is not the starting point. Find the courthouse. In front of the courthouse on the sidewalk is a broken brick. Face the street sign for 1st and Main, and 75' from the broken brick towards the street sign you will find the container under a bush.

See, no coordinates used in the hunt itself. The coordinates discribe Mytown, SC and could just as easily not be used.

 

I submitted a "pure" letterbox that was worded similar to the above example and it was not approved. It was explained to me that the hunt had to have coordinates incorporated somehow.

 

It's not that you have to use GPS unit to find the cache. It's that the hunt somehow incorporates coordinates that a GPS unit can use.

 

I'm sure there are real world examples of hunts that have no coordinates to hunt the cache, but that is no guarantee that yours would be approved if all else is equal.

 

Short answer: no.

 

Hope this helps.

[+Divine]

I once tried to submit a Web Cam cache that I wanted the finder to have general coordinate to, but then find their own way to the spot on location by using the pictures on the web that the web cam had taken.

 

It was denied because the coordinates weren't spot on for the pictures.

Weird. I'm not a biggest fan of webcam 'caches' at all, yet I have had my picture taken couple of times. Some of those were exactly like you described:

 

The given coordinates are not for the camera, but they will guide you very close to it.

The given coordinates are not for the camera, but they will guide you to the area seen through the camera.

The given coordinates are not for the camera, but for the market place. When you find the camera, you have to make a phone call to a friend and ask him or her to download and save your picture

Etc.

[cezanne]

If I'm reading the question right, it's a hunt that uses no coordinates what-so-ever. With no coordinates to plug into the GPS then the unit is useless in taking you to the endgame.

There are coordinates involved and these are non artificial ones, but many places are much more conveniently to find without GPSr. Have a look at my examples.

 

Here is another one: Caches in indoor facilities. Take for example, Bookworm Wanted. Of course, you can use you GPSr to go to the library, but that is not the typical way one would do it. For the real hunt, the GPSr is useless.

The same is true for caches where the coordinates are the coordinates of the starting point or a parking lot nearby and then the remaining hunt will typically done without GPSr (read my posting above for a listing of possible reasons).

 

By the way, the original poster does not want to submit a cache where a GPSr is not useful. He is complaining somehow about the cache of someone else that has been approved.

 

Cezanne

[+º]

By the way, the original poster does not want to submit a cache where a GPSr is not useful. He is complaining somehow about the cache of someone else that has been approved.

I'm asking for an opinion and state mine - that's different from complaining

[cezanne]

I'm asking for an opinion and state mine - that's different from complaining

I am aware of the difference.

I wrote, however, complained somehow. Moreover, I was not referring to your statements in this subforum. Some of the formulations you used in another forum come very close to at least a soft form of a complaint.

 

The fact that you decided to ignore the posters in the German speaking subforum and to post in another German speaking geocaching forum instead (one specifically for Germany) is a further indication that your main interest does not seem to be to discuss about different opinions.

 

Let me ask again: Is none of the examples I brought up above a geocache in your opinion? Where is the borderline according to your opinion?

 

Cezanne

[+º]

ok here we go:

 

What about caches in well-known caves where the starting coordinates are the coordinates of the entrance of the cave which can much more easily be found by following some sign posts than by using the GPSr (often the reception in such areas is almost non-existent)?

Someone at least tried to give coordinates - there's not a description like "Find the cave named XY and find the cache inside". In my eyes it's a geocache

 

What about caches in very public places where the hider does not want the cachers to run around with the GPSr because this receives too much attention. (I already mentioned the example of the cache Platform 9 3/4 in the thread in German - note that the starting coordinates of that cache are not the coordinates of the cache, but just of the train station which is much easier to find without GPSr.)

So did I get this right? To find the cache you have to follow some clues because the coordinates are useless? In my eyes it's a Letterbox (which might be listet on gc.com as it)

 

What about caches in areas where the hider wishes the cachers to mind their steps (for safety reasons or for ecological reasons) and thus does not want the cachers to use their GPSr? (In such cases sometimes coordinates are given, but accompanied by a description and/or photographs and the request not to use the GPSr.)

Well coordinates are given - you might use your GPSr even it's dangerous. In my eyes it's a geocache

 

What about caches in gorges where there exists no GPS-reception?

 

What about caches in urban areas with very narrow  streets? You could switch on your GPS there, but typically it is useless and you are far better off with a map.

If you want to you can use your GPSr - other things might be better to find the cache but theoretical you can find it with your GPSr as well. In my eyes it's a geocache.

 

Geocache for means that there exists a cache and that coordinates are involved, but not that I necessarily need a GPSr to access the coordinates.

That's the point - if the given coordinates are only the parking lot (or something like that) which can be found with every map and from there on you have to follow clues, some other technical device or whatever but not a GPSr I wouldn't call it Geocaching. There might be exception like above where other things like maps are used but also here coordinates are part of the game.

 

The german discussion startet about a specific cache where you have to take a bearing to the cache with some radio-equippment. Yes there is a cache but there are no coordinates except the place where to start. In my eyes this cache crossed the line between geocache and not geocache - although it's a great idea and very good technical solution... but that's only my opinion.

[+Divine]

Geocache for means that there exists a cache and that coordinates are involved, but not that I necessarily need a GPSr to access the coordinates.

That's the point - if the given coordinates are only the parking lot (or something like that) which can be found with every map and from there on you have to follow clues, some other technical device or whatever but not a GPSr I wouldn't call it Geocaching. There might be exception like above where other things like maps are used but also here coordinates are part of the game.

 

The german discussion startet about a specific cache where you have to take a bearing to the cache with some radio-equippment. Yes there is a cache but there are no coordinates except the place where to start. In my eyes this cache crossed the line between geocache and not geocache - although it's a great idea and very good technical solution... but that's only my opinion.

So, basically you wouldn't consider night caches as geocaches? In many cases the coordinates are given, granted, but the starting point can often be found with maps or indtructions given by the hider. Then the rest of the hunt is to use a techincal device, a flashlight in this case, until you find the box.

 

For example this cache has instructions how to get to the starting point. It's in different town than I live in, but I checked in the phone book map of that town where the given address is, and drove straight there without using GPSr (the coords to the starting place are given there too, of course) and the rest was flailing around with a flashlight until I found the cache. It's one of the best geocaches I've found. Oh yes, I think it's a geocache.

[cezanne]

So did I get this right? To find the cache you have to follow some clues because the coordinates are useless? In my eyes it's a Letterbox (which might be listet on gc.com as it)

 

You certainly have to follow the clues for finding the Platform 9 3/4 cache, in very much the same way as you have to do for caches in caves where you cannot simply make an exhaustive search. The coordinates are not useless, but they are just the coordinates of a very well known train station - the cache is hidden in this area and the hunt can start at the given coordinates. After reaching this starting point, the GPSr is useless in any case, that's true as there are no further coordinates. My remark regarding the coordinates reflected the fact that the cache is classified as traditional one while you would regard it as multi cache.

 

Where is the borderline against caches in caves, gorges etc? There you also do not have the coordinates of the cache and need the clues in the description.

 

As your letterbox classification is regarded: A film canister can never be a letterbox (there is no room for the stamp etc). Please read the instructions about letterboxes first before stating that a micro cache of the type of Platform 9 3/4 is a letterbox.

 

What about caches in gorges where there exists no GPS-reception?

 

What about caches in urban areas with very narrow  streets? You could switch on your GPS there, but typically it is useless and you are far better off with a map.

If you want to you can use your GPSr - other things might be better to find the cache but theoretical you can find it with your GPSr as well. In my eyes it's a geocache.

 

But if there exists no reception (such places do exist), you can just hold the GPSr in your hands and cannot use it in the normal way!

You can also turn on your GPSr in a library, but can we call this "using the GPSr"?

 

That's the point - if the given coordinates are only the parking lot (or something like that) which can be found with every map and from there on you have to follow clues, some other technical device or whatever but not a GPSr I wouldn't call it Geocaching.

 

Many traditional caches I found, can be found with every map, and that way is even often the most convenient one. Try, for example, to navigate with a GPS in the narrow lanes in the centre of certain towns or villages.

 

The german discussion startet about a specific cache where you have to take a bearing to the cache with some radio-equippment. Yes there is a cache but there are no coordinates except the place where to start. In my eyes this cache crossed the line between geocache and not geocache - although it's a great idea and very good technical solution... but that's only my opinion.

 

I got your point, but there are so many other caches where you only have coordinates of the place where to start.

Many offset caches are of that type as well. For example, go to tower XY (at a place which typically can be found with every map!) and then look for a large fir and go from there 100 meters into the direction in which you can see a large group of rocks.

 

I ask again: Where is the borderline? How many sites do you need to have a home for all the different kind of ideas related to searching for cache boxes?

 

Cezanne

Edited September 10, 2004 by cezanne

[+º]

At this cache you walk from reflector to recflector without any coordinates? Strange - the nightcaches I know have reflectors but every reflector can be seen from specific coordinates which you get at the previous reflector ...

 

In order to answer your question - I wouldn't call it a geocache although it is fun (which applies for a lot of activities).

[cezanne]

At this cache you walk from reflector to recflector without any coordinates? Strange - the nightcaches I know have reflectors but every reflector can be seen from specific coordinates which you get at the previous reflector ...

So it seems that you require for a geocache which involves several stages that one needs to use the GPSr at all stages? A very restrictive concept.

 

I often enjoy caches where not all stages are to found by coordinates and by using the GPSr more than very classical ones.

 

BTW: Where else should caches as the one Divine mentioned be listed? They are certainly not letterboxes. Also no cistes. Is it a good idea to have a separate web page for each small variation?

Edited September 10, 2004 by cezanne

[+Divine]

At this cache you walk from reflector to recflector without any coordinates? Strange - the nightcaches I know have reflectors but every reflector can be seen from specific coordinates which you get at the previous reflector ...

Strange, everyone of the three night/reflector cacher I've found were just going from reflector to reflector. Only the starting point was given as coordinates. Maybe this is a cultural/area based difference?

 

In order to answer your question - I wouldn't call it a geocache although it is fun (which applies for a lot of activities).

I would. The specific one I mentioned had these instructions to find the starting point even without a GPSr, but the other two were exactly the same, except that it's unlikely to be able pinpoint the exact starting point without a GPSr. The coordinates weren't involved in the reflector phase in any of these caches.

 

So, according to your view, two of these caches are geocaches, and one is not. And the reason for that certain one is that the hider told where the starting point is. Nah, it's too complicated to start separating geocaches from other activities such close to them only for a slight difference in the description.

[CoyoteRed]

The german discussion startet about a specific cache where you have to take a bearing to the cache with some radio-equippment. Yes there is a cache but there are no coordinates except the place where to start.

If the place to take the bearing is what your are referring to as the start and is defined with coordinates and then you figure out a bearing somehow and follow that for a certain distance, then I'd have to say that it can be called a geocache.

 

This, IMHO, is a classic offset. You are taken to a certain point and then are told to go a certain distance in a certain direction.

 

While not trying to put words in any approvers' mouths, I think the issue is not whether you can find a spot with a map. It's whether the hunt uses coordinates to describe a portion of the hunt--be it the first stage, the final, or any or none inbetween.

[CoyoteRed]

As your letterbox classification is regarded: A film canister can never be a letterbox (there is no room for the stamp etc).

I've got a film cannister with a custom stamp and scroll log on my desk that I'm going to use as a letterbox.

 

When I queried LbNA about size I was told of boxes that were in strips tins and smaller!

[cezanne]

While not trying to put words in any approvers' mouths, I think the issue is not whether you can find a spot with a map. It's whether the hunt uses coordinates to describe a portion of the hunt--be it the first stage, the final, or any or none inbetween.

It seems that teamguzbach.org is of the opinion that a cache where coordinates are only given for the first point and where this first point can also be found with a map, are no geocaches.

 

I agree with you that coordinates should be involved. The examples I mentioned Platform 9 3/4, Grazer Urwald, Bookworm Wanted etc all involve coordinates.

 

Cezanne

[cezanne]

I've got a film cannister with a custom stamp and scroll log on my desk that I'm going to use as a letterbox.

At least I have not sees such small stamps here, and I would never take the pain to acquire a stamp and ink pad (or even several stamps of different sizes) for myself just to be able to hunt for something which I regard as geocache anyway.

 

Moreover, there exists no reasonable site for letterboxing in continental Europe, but this is only a side remark. I would not wish to use 100 sites, one for each different type of cache idea.

 

Cezanne

[CoyoteRed]

Moreover, there exists no reasonable site for letterboxing in continental Europe, but this is only a side remark. I would not wish to use 100 sites, one for each different type of cache idea.

Part of the fun for us is letterboxes have a much wider latitude (no pun intended) for clues than geocaches as pretty much anything goes.

 

Plus, it seems much more likely to find clues in other letterboxes than you would find coordinates to a geocache in another cache.

 

It's too bad there isn't a good central place to find letterbox clues in Europe. I know a lot of clues here are still on personal sites and are just linked from a central place.

[+BlackBrownDog]

We recently had a cache hidden in our area, with only parking coords given (GCKFYG). It is listed as a Unknown Cache (? symbol), and IMHO I think that's fair enough. If someone doesn't care to search for such a hide, this should clue them in, and they can avoid the sans-GPS hunts!