National Wildlife Refuges Have Banned Caches?

[+Milbank]

I can not get this cache approved because it's in a National Wildlife Refuge.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...3b-4c4d1c1b53ed

 

First off this is nothing about approver that looked at it " mtn-man"

I understand he is just doing his job and he does it very well.

I would like to thank for the great job he does, thanks.

 

I should have done some more research before I did the 3 mile hike (twice) to place this cache.

 

I guess being that there were two other caches in the same refuge I did not think that there would be any problems with placing it there.

 

Here are the other two in the same area, same refuge.

I know the owner and I know they did not ask anyone special about placing them in the refuge.

 

Bigstone Wildlife area

 

Auto tour Hiking trail

 

I just don't see how the other could have gotten approved but not the cache I place.

 

I understand it's no ones fault but my own as I should have done my own research and not been looking at the other two approved caches that were place in the refuge.

 

So will the other caches in the refuge now get archived?

I don't want to see them archived as if they are then I will feel I have done more harm then good trying to place a cache?

 

Yet if the other two don't get archived I will be even more confused at why my cache is not getting aproved?

 

I have emailed the other owns of the two caches to see what they had to say about it.

 

I would just leave it untill I had time to get it, but it's full of good stuff like a jeep tb, 3 laker game pieces and a number of other items.

So I feel like I must get it ASAP.

I really wish I would not have to, but it's not looking good.

 

I had no idea how heavy a full ammo can could get after carring it 1.5 miles.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

 

Thanks,

[+Renegade Knight]

Who's a local cacher familiar with the area? That would be who I ask to find out the story with the refuge.

 

Those cache could have been placed before the ban, and that particular refuge may have not had an issue with them to begin with. Or that refuge does allow them.

 

There are a lot of things that could be going on.

[Keystone]

The agency responsible for managing National Wildlife Refuges is the US Fish & Wildlife Service, which is part of the Department of the Interior just like the National Park Service is. This agency banned the placement of geocaches in wildlife refuges in November, 2003. See this forum thread for complete details. The forum thread was pinned at the top of the Geocaching Topics forum for several months, in order to alert everyone to the ban.

 

Of course, an old forum thread is not very useful for someone who has just recently joined in our hobby. So, the National Wildlife Refuge ban is also noted in the "off limits" section of the Geocache Listing Requirements/ Guidelines. I encourage all geocachers to read the guidelines carefully before placing a cache.

 

As for those other caches, you will see that they were both hidden prior to the ban's announcement. Geocaching.com does not actively search out and archive caches hidden in areas that later announce a ban, instead leaving it up to the land manager and the cache owner to determine how to proceed. If, however, the land manager brings a particular cache to the website's attention, the cache may be disabled or archived and the correspondence will be forwarded to the cache owner. I am guessing that no complaints have been received concerning the other two caches that you linked us to.

 

But, now that the listing service is on notice of a ban on geocaches, the reviewers are instructed not to list any new cache that pops up in the banned area. An exception can be made, as always, if the geocacher is able to demonstrate that they have obtained permission despite the national ban. Typically we ask that this permission be in writing (i.e., an e-mail) for everyone's protection. If you would like to approach the manager of this wildlife refuge, good luck!

[+Milbank]

Who's a local cacher familiar with the area?

 

Not really sure what your asking, but I have emailed the owners of the other caches in the refuge asking them about it.

 

Those cache could have been placed before the ban, and that particular refuge may have not had an issue with them to begin with. Or that refuge does allow them.

 

So if they were placed before the ban does that mean the refuge lets them stay or does that mean geocaching does not have a problem with them?

 

It would be great if this particular refuge does not have a problem with them, but if that's the case I would think that the appovers would already have this information.

 

How can I tell who approved the other two caches in the refuge?

Edited August 1, 2004 by Milbank

[+Milbank]

An exception can be made, as always, if the geocacher is able to demonstrate that they have obtained permission despite the national ban. Typically we ask that this permission be in writing (i.e., an e-mail) for everyone's protection. If you would like to approach the manager of this wildlife refuge, good luck!

 

Ok, I'm willing to give it a try.

I'm open to any and all idea's of how It would be best to go about approaching the manager of the refuge.

 

Thanks,

[Keystone]

It would be great if this particular refuge does not have a problem with them, but if that's the case I would think that the appovers would already have this information.

I think that's unrealistic. The Geocaching.com volunteers are talented but we are not mind readers. The presence of a couple of caches in a wildlife refuge doesn't necessarily mean that the land manager doesn't have a problem with them. They may just not know about them, they may be cool with it, or they may be hopping mad and are getting ready to send an officer out on Monday to confiscate them. It is really up to the cache owner in the first instance to obtain adequate permission for their cache. With hundreds of wildlife refuges scattered across the country, it is impracticable for Geocaching.com to survey each local refuge to see if they allow caching. More likely, such contact would result in the removal of even more caches.

 

How can I tell who approved the other two caches in the refuge?

It really doesn't matter. You should work with either mtn-man (who covers Minnesota and is backup for the Dakotas) or Electric Mouse (who covers the Dakotas).

[Keystone]

Ok, I'm willing to give it a try.

Bear in mind that one possible consequence of approaching the manager of the refuge might be that the other two caches will be removed. You need to be prepared to deal with that.

[+Milbank]

I think that's unrealistic. The Geocaching.com volunteers are talented but we are not mind readers.

 

You are correct, sorry.

I was thinking maybe it would be on file or something, not sure what I was really thinking.

 

Bear in mind that one possible consequence of approaching the manager of the refuge might be that the other two caches will be removed.

 

I was just thinking about that.

I'm thinking I will go and get the cache, then look for someplace else to hide it.

 

Thanks for all your input and time.

I'm still very new to geocaching and as you can see I have a lot to learn.

 

Thanks again,

Edited August 1, 2004 by Milbank

[+Milbank]

Could I turn this into a Virtual Cache?

 

I really like the area I placed the cache and I would love for other to see the area as well.

 

Just looking for some idea's to get other geocachers into that area of the refuge.

[+Thot]

Bear in mind that one possible consequence of approaching the manager of the refuge might be that the other two caches will be removed.

 

I was just thinking about that.

I'm thinking I will go and get the cache, then look for someplace else to hide it.

I don't see why there'd be much risk to the other caches if you just discussed the possibility of placing yours and said nothing about the existing ones.

Edited August 1, 2004 by Thot

[+Renegade Knight]

Milbank: KA has you covered and in good detail on the issues and options.

 

What I meant by a local, was someone who might know of the local variations. A pominent local or one who has been around a long time tends to accumulate this kind of information. They may know the local refuge does allow caches, or that they allowed the two but no more and so on. The local refuge manager may be an avid cacher and is willing to run a blind eye until it's called to his attention by his superiors. You never know.

 

This information isn't something you can really expect an approver who covers a region to know. Of course if mtn-man tracks this and I suspet he will, he will know next time the situation and will act accordingly.

[+IV_Warrior]

I don't see why there'd be any risk to the other caches if you just discussed the possibility of placing yours and said nothing about the existing ones.

Well, if the land manager has never heard of geocaching, and you go in asking permission to place a cache on "his" land, he just might go search gc.com and realize there are already caches placed, without permission. He then sends an e-mail to TBTB asking that these caches be archived, and they're gone.

[+Thot]

I don't see why there'd be much risk to the other caches if you just discussed the possibility of placing yours and said nothing about the existing ones.

Well, if the land manager has never heard of geocaching, and you go in asking permission to place a cache on "his" land, he just might go search gc.com and realize there are already caches placed, without permission.

That's possible, but the risk seems fairly low. If a recent policy statement has been issued then he probably already knows about geocaching. If Milbank doesn't give him an education about the web support he wouldn't know anymore about gc.com than he did before. "There's this game I play with others where I hide a container of harmless novelty items, then tell others the Lat/Lon and they try to find it and trade items with me. Here's my container of stuff. I wondered if it would be alright for me to hide it over by the bend in the brohau stream"

[+Milbank]

This information isn't something you can really expect an approver who covers a region to know. Of course if mtn-man tracks this and I suspet he will, he will know next time the situation and will act accordingly.

 

Your are correct, mtn-man and all the others do a great job.

 

That's possible, but the risk seems fairly low.

 

What ever the risk is I'm not willing to risk the other cache getting archived.

I will remove the ammo can and find another spot to hide it.

[+ironman114]

good move Milbank. I have read threads where someone causes a cache to have to be removed and lots of people were upset at that person.

[+welch]

Those cache could have been placed before the ban, and that particular refuge may have not had an issue with them to begin with. Or that refuge does allow them.

 

So if they were placed before the ban does that mean the refuge lets them stay or does that mean geocaching does not have a problem with them?

 

It would be great if this particular refuge does not have a problem with them, but if that's the case I would think that the appovers would already have this information.

 

How can I tell who approved the other two caches in the refuge?

Grandfathered means that gc.com knows they violate new guidelines it has set for itself, but since they were 'legal' at the time, they will let them live out a normal cache life. Or at least thats the general idea of it. It has nothing to do with the refudge, because at anytime the refudge can get the listing archived/cache requested removed, like normal.

 

LOL

 

You can't, you might try emailing the owners and ask (its listed at the bottom of your own cache pages. But as KA says, it doesn't matter.

[Neos2]

I realize that I am pretty new at geocaching, but when I look at Terraserver Maps of the two caches, they both seem to be just (barely) outside the edge of the Wildlife Preserve, and in legitimate spots to place a cache.

Of course, you live near there and those maps I pulled up might be old and not show the full extent of the refuge, so I could be wrong.

 

URLs to the caches up close:

 

http://www.yvanovich.com/geocaching/index....=500&height=500

 

http://www.yvanovich.com/geocaching/index....=500&height=500

 

Could your cache be placed in a similar area? It looks like there is a lot of nice ground near there that would be suitable for placement, yet outside the banned areas.

Edited August 1, 2004 by Neos2

[+Milbank]

I realize that I am pretty new at geocaching, but when I look at Terraserver Maps of the two caches, they both seem to be just (barely) outside the edge of the Wildlife Preserve, and in legitimate spots to place a cache.

Of course, you live near there and those maps I pulled up might be old and not show the full extent of the refuge, so I could be wrong.

 

 

Yep, your wrong.

They are well within the refuge.

 

Could your cache be placed in a similar area? It looks like there is a lot of nice ground near there that would be suitable for placement, yet outside the banned areas.

 

The world is my playground, I can find some other place to hide them

 

I learned something new this weekend, so not all is lost.

 

After all this is just fun and games, right....

 

I'm still having a ton of fun.

Edited August 1, 2004 by Milbank

[+Alan2]

Could I turn this into a Virtual Cache?

 

I really like the area I placed the cache and I would love for other to see the area as well.

 

Just looking for some idea's to get other geocachers into that area of the refuge.

I've suggested the idea of virtuals as other have too in parks that don't allow containers. If any place should allow virtuals, this is it. It'll open these great areas to geocaching. But I haven't heard geocaching.com's take on this.

 

Keystone?

 

Alan

[+BAMBOOZLE]

There was a lot written several months ago regarding fine and penalties for leaving caches in wildlife preserves.....I contacted mtn-man and he agreed it was a good idea to remove the 5 - caches I had placed in south Louisiana so I did.