xcrossroadsx2000 Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 I was leaning towards a Garmin 60cs but I've seen a number of posts saying Magellan units are better under cover. I'd like a color display and the electronic compass and barometer are pluses, but doesn't make much sense if I can't get signal under trees, where I spend alot of time in the Catskills in NY. Would consider Lowrance or other units, would like a color display and detailed topo software where I can build maps, enter waypoints and create my own maps. Good local streets and autorouting are a plus, but must get signal in the woods. Thanks in advance for any feedback. Quote Link to comment
robertlipe Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 At this moment, I have a Platinum and 60CS at my desk. My desk is obviously in a house (brick) and not in the woods, so it's not really answering your question, but it may give you some indication. The Plat has a lock on six birds and I've never seen it lose lock here. The 60CS loses lock about 4/5 times an hour and brings up a menu suggesting we just give up and turn off the receiver circuit. At this moment, it has 3 birds in sight which is resulting in an 80 ft EPE and a 2D lock, but I know it's only a matter of time before it loses again. With that said, it's the first Garmin that I've seen do even that well at my desk... I'm considering writing up a shoot-out of those two units. They're each very good at some things. Quote Link to comment
Neo_Geo Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 The Garmin 60 series uses the same antenna (quad helix) as the Magellans. The difference between the two is in the firmware. Magellans trick you into thinking that they have a signal (based on your last known movements and projecting those movements forward in time). Garmins are truthful and will tell you right away when it's lost its signal. I'd rather know the truth and get my GPSr in a better position to acquire satellites rather than have the device tell me where IT THINKS it is! THIS THREAD starts out discussing upgrading a GPS V's memory, but toward the end discusses Magellan's autorouting abilities with DirectRoute. Go with the Garmin 60 - you'll be glad you did. Quote Link to comment
+EScout Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 I think the general statement made by Neo_Geo about Magellans "thinking they have a signal" is wrong. Here is my experience, and you tell me yours. I recently took a 20 mile ocean ferry trip. Inside the cabin, I turned on my Legend and Meridian. At no time during the trip did the Legend get more than 2 satellites and never got a position reading. The Meridian showed at least 4 satellites and mostly 5 to 7 satellites, and for the entire trip the heading, bearing, and speed were consistent and what they should be. (I have made this trip many times and the boat goes the same direction and speed each time.) Arriving at the dock, at a previously entered waypoint, the Meridian showed us pulling right up to it. My conclusion is that the Meridiian has better antenna or a more sensitive receiver or both, compared to the Legend. Comparing it to another GPSr which also has a quadrifiler helix antenna, one can make comparisons on the receivers. Since Roberlipe is stationary in his house, and the Meridian is receiving more satellites, it must have a better receiver than the 60C. No projecting from a "last position" here, it is reading more satellites, and reporting a fixed position, when the Garmin will not even report this. You might also connect the GPSrs to a computer and use a NMEA monitor in a program such as "Visual GPS"..... Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 (edited) It's one thing to look at the birds the magellan is tracking and know when they have a lock or not and how much of one they have. However, when they do lose lock they don't tell you and keep on averaging your movement faking it as you go. You have to change settings for them to tell you when they lose lock. Edit: That's my experience with a sport track pro. Edited August 1, 2004 by Renegade Knight Quote Link to comment
+shunra Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 (edited) I turned on my Legend and Meridian. Since the Legend has a very different antenna from Gatmin 60 (and 76) series, your comparison is irrelevant to Neo_Geo's observation, and does not indicate that it would be 'wrong'. Edited August 1, 2004 by Shunra Quote Link to comment
dampeoples Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 It's not going to be the unit that shines in heavy cover, it's going to be the antenna, regardless of who makes it. Quote Link to comment
+EScout Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 Renegade Knight: When my Meridian loses its lock on satellites, it tells me. It does not report a position fix when it is not receiving at least 3 sats. Therefore no faking. Dampeoples: Some radio receivers are more sensitive than others. This would be evident if they are using the same antenna. Of course some receivers have more generous signal strength meters also. (I have seen both in years of playing with ham radios...on the same antenna.) But if one GPSr is receiving more satellites, and reporting an accurate location, and the other cannot receive the minimum to report a location, the first is better. Robertlipe's observation proves the Meridan works better in heavy cover such as under a roof. One can argue that the Meridian's firmware just processes lower received signals, but then you would have to conclude that it is able to process and use these signals better. Quote Link to comment
+TotemLake Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 The Garmin 60 series uses the same antenna (quad helix) as the Magellans. The difference between the two is in the firmware. Magellans trick you into thinking that they have a signal (based on your last known movements and projecting those movements forward in time). If that were true, then the signal bars on the satellite page indicating signal strength would be gone indicating a loss of signal. I think this "rumor" was put out by Garmin detractors determined not to admit that Magellans hold a lock better under tree cover than their Garmin counterparts. Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 Renegade Knight:When my Meridian loses its lock on satellites, it tells me. It does not report a position fix when it is not receiving at least 3 sats. Therefore no faking.... Since my only experience with Magellan is the Sport Track Pro I don't know if the default setting is different from the Meridian. I do know though that until the settings were changed it would estimate your postion when it didn't have a lock. Once it was changed it seemed about the same as my GPS V for lock vs. no lock etc. Since firmware has similarities, you probably could set your Meridian to estimate it's position when it looses a lock. This function has come in handy once while caching when we walked up to the base of a cliff where bad reception was the rule of the day. The magellan said "it's 20' ahead" with complete confidance. My garmin said "I can't get a lock boss". The cache was 20' ahead on top of the cliff. Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 The Garmin 60 series uses the same antenna (quad helix) as the Magellans. The difference between the two is in the firmware. Magellans trick you into thinking that they have a signal (based on your last known movements and projecting those movements forward in time). If that were true, then the signal bars on the satellite page indicating signal strength would be gone indicating a loss of signal. I think this "rumor" was put out by Garmin detractors determined not to admit that Magellans hold a lock better under tree cover than their Garmin counterparts. Totem Lake: It's not a rumor. Where Night Stalker and I first noticed this was when we both had conflicting information from our GPSs telling us different directions to a cache. We were on a winding mountain road in tree cover and my GPS was beeping like R2D2 from signal loss. His was telling us one direction, where mine (a GPS V) when it did have lock was saying something different. Finally during one of those moments he checked his satalite page and flat out had no lock, but the GPS was still giving a direction and bearing to the cache like it did have one. That's when he did some digging and changed his settings so that it would not estimate postion. On a straight path this is no big deal. On a winding mountain road with a lot of interestion this was a very big deal. That has nothing to do with what roberlipe has commented on which is a fair observation. Quote Link to comment
+Night Stalker Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 I can state that Renegade Knight stated what happened in our comparison correctly, what he left out was that I had to change my Magellan back to its original settings because I was getting tired of it beeping all the time. I did not realize until then how often I was actually losing a signal. I don't want anyone to think that I am bad mouthing the Magellan, because I think it is an awesome device and has led me to over 400 finds to date. Quote Link to comment
vr12 Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 I have my doubts about getting any signal in house trough the brick walls. the only way to get signal in a house is through the window, in that case position of the recievers have to be exactly the same to make any comparison. Quote Link to comment
+Night Stalker Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 I tested my new 60CS against my older SporTrak Pro in my house. This is not a brick house, but a 2 story. I found that neither would get a lock while in the bottom story, but in an upper story room the Garmin got a lock with 7 satellites while the Magellan could not find any. I am not sure why this was so, but Renegade Knight brought his GPS V over and got similar results. Quote Link to comment
peter Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 the only way to get signal in a house is through the window, in that case position of the recievers have to be exactly the same to make any comparison. No, many building materials are transparent to GPS and other microwave signals, but anything with a metallic film (like many insulating blankets) or significant water content will block them. I get pretty good reception from the top floor of our house even when away from windows but don't usually get reception from the ground floor. Although the frequencies aren't quite the same, a useful test of whether a given material will absorb GPS signals is to check it in a microwave oven - if it heats up then it'll be likely to block the signals. I did an impromptu test of a couple Meridians (Gold and Plat) along with my Garmin eMap (patch antenna) inside a store at a point not in view of any windows and at least 100' from the nearest one. All three units performed similarly with reception of 3 to 6 satellites and fluctuating between 2D and 3D lock when positioned optimally (eMap flat, Meridians vertical). None of the units got a lock when positioned incorrectly. Quote Link to comment
+TotemLake Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 It's not a rumor. etc... ==edited for brevity== Fair enough. I do check my position every 15 minutes, and at the same time look at the satellite page because of what has been said about faking the signal. I have seen averaging cause problems in that respect, but when the MeriPlat loses signal, flat out the arrow goes to the sand hourglass. I'm on default settings and have been since fwv 4.06, and 5.12. In the same vein, I have noted on a recent group hike during a camping event, where the Garmins were losing lock, I would have a minimum of 4 birds locked in. I think one time I was actually down to 3, but that was momentary whereas the 60c's were just showing pretty colors. There was also another hike where Moun10Bike and I compared notes with his 60c and my MeriPlat, and we both had erratic and loss of signal in the same location, with 45 deg angled horizons and the satellites all lined up in a straight line. I think what bothers me about the fake signal argument, is the Garmin users always fall back to this when comparing notes. I've learned a long time ago to trust my Meridian. The "fake" signal has not come into play. Averaging, on the other hand has. It tends to slow down the reduction of distance when standing still to ground zero when you know you are in the specified area. I have noticed Garmins are a lot quicker to do that than my Meridian. Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 (edited) I tested my new 60CS against my older SporTrak Pro in my house. This is not a brick house, but a 2 story. I found that neither would get a lock while in the bottom story, but in an upper story room the Garmin got a lock with 7 satellites while the Magellan could not find any. I am not sure why this was so, but Renegade Knight brought his GPS V over and got similar results. I had a similar lock as the Garmin 60CS with my GPS V. The 60 had one more satellite it could find and get a lock on, and the bars indicated a stronger lock on most of the satellites, so the edge did go the the 60CS. What was really interesting was that the satellite pages on each GPS had a couple of different satellites showing. Most of them were the same number, but a couple showed upon the V that were not on the 60 and vice versa. That was strange. Edit: If it's not the typo's its the spelling... Edited August 2, 2004 by Renegade Knight Quote Link to comment
+TotemLake Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I've seen that and have wondered why as well. Quote Link to comment
+BAMBOOZLE Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Get a Magellan Platinum ( I don't think to add what is called color is worth the extra money ) I have used a Garmin but the Magellan has been superior under tree cover....we've been under cover for over 8 hours and never lost a lock............my wife and I both use one and I'm about to order another for a spare........get a 128 or 256 card to download your maps to, an automotive power adapter, Mapsend Software, a belt holster, and you're ready to go. Quote Link to comment
vr12 Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I honestly think GPS units with the same type of antenna are identical in terms of sensitivity. Quote Link to comment
+hwyman Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I honestly think you shouldn't confuse having the same type of something with having the same thing. Quote Link to comment
+as77 Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I have used a Garmin but the Magellan has been superior under tree cover.... "a Garmin" is a bit too general here. Several things prevent me from buying a Meridian Platinum: the size (bulky, heavy, it's the biggest, heaviest handheld unit on the market), the undesirable "overshooting" behavior and the fact that the electronic compass is always on, instead of being on only below a certain speed limit. I think the 60cs is a better unit overall and I believe its performance under heavy tree cover is similar to the Meridian (not much worse anyway). Quote Link to comment
vr12 Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I honestly think you shouldn't confuse having the same type of something with having the same thing. Well, people shouldn't confuse eTrex series with 60CS on the first place. 60CS and MeriPlat in my opinion have identical sensitivity. Quote Link to comment
+TotemLake Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I have used a Garmin but the Magellan has been superior under tree cover.... "a Garmin" is a bit too general here. Several things prevent me from buying a Meridian Platinum: the size (bulky, heavy, it's the biggest, heaviest handheld unit on the market), the undesirable "overshooting" behavior and the fact that the electronic compass is always on, instead of being on only below a certain speed limit. I think the 60cs is a better unit overall and I believe its performance under heavy tree cover is similar to the Meridian (not much worse anyway). The electronic compass can be disabled if that's really a problem with you. But then, why buy the feature if you're not going to use it? Quote Link to comment
+as77 Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 No, I don't want to disable the compass. But I only want to use it while standing still or at low speed. The Garmin automatically switches it but the Magellan does not. Quote Link to comment
+EScout Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 60CS and MeriPlat in my opinion have identical sensitivity I honestly think GPS units with the same type of antenna are identical in terms of sensitivity. I think what we are looking for here is evidence or testing, not opinion. ALSO, ALL QUADRIFILAR HELIX ANTENNAS ARE NOT EQUAL. They can be constructed with vastly different gain patterns. This means that some can have more or less gain lower to the horizon compared to overhead. Quad Helix antennas The existence of a ground plane under the antenna can also make a big difference. Look up the Eggbeater II for another circularly polarized satellite antenna. Quote Link to comment
vr12 Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 (edited) 60CS and MeriPlat in my opinion have identical sensitivity I honestly think GPS units with the same type of antenna are identical in terms of sensitivity. I think what we are looking for here is evidence or testing, not opinion. ALSO, ALL QUADRIFILAR HELIX ANTENNAS ARE NOT EQUAL. They can be constructed with vastly different gain patterns. This means that some can have more or less gain lower to the horizon compared to overhead. Quad Helix antennas The existence of a ground plane under the antenna can also make a big difference. Look up the Eggbeater II for another circularly polarized satellite antenna. Yes, we need evidence/test, but not like the one you provided/conducted. Edited August 6, 2004 by vr12 Quote Link to comment
+Night Stalker Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 Renegade Knight and I have made several test. Our conclusions were that once I had my SporTrak Pro set up the same as his GPS V. (So that mine would give me a signal when I lost signal). I found them to be pretty much equal. The other test was between my SporTrak Pro and my new 60CS. This was not intentional but when they were both turned on in my house next to each other the Garmin got a lock while my Magellan did not. In other areas I think the SporTrak Pro is superior because it seems to update more often while my 60 will jump around because of lag. This can be very disconcerting while looking for a cache. This is more than made up for by the 60's auto-routing feature which is just fabulous. I can't even begin to count how much time I have wasted trying to figure out how to get within walking distance of a cache in the past. Quote Link to comment
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