GW1VRW Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 After going on holiday to Corfu from the UK, (only 2 sites on the island), we planned to activate a VIRTUAL site at a place of historic interest, I won't put the date, but it's more than 500 years B.C. This location is in a very picturesque area, which is visited by many visitors to the island, the area is an abandoned village which as the locals left the houses were just abandonded, they left their furnature and houshold objects in place. What more do you need? There are 2 Tavernas open in the village for local Greek food and hospitality, the homes are open to look into and see how folks lived for the past 2000 years, there are 2 Churches that are used on Festival Days, in another Church you can still see the wall paintings that must be 2000 years old at least. This Virt. Cache was put foward and was NOT approved as "it did not come up to the standards for a Virtual Cache" !!!!!!!!!!!!! What the heck is needed to get cachers into another country and see local history? Are cache sites that are of historic interest not required any more, there are cachers out there who ARE intersted in historis sites. The point I am trying to make is; how can someone the other side of the world say that a site is not up to standard, when he has not visited the site or checked into it's history ???????????????? Can anyone shed some light on this? GW1VRW. Colin King. S.Wales UK Quote Link to comment
Radman Forever Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Caches are approved by local approvers. They aren't usually approved by someone far away unless the area doesn't have enough caches to have a local approver. Quote Link to comment
+The Leprechauns Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 If folks are so fond of abandoning things in this area, why can't a physical cache be left someplace in a discreetly hidden fashion? Also, the rest of us are subject to the listing rules which include a rule about hiding a cache while you are on holiday. Why is it that you are exempt from that? I am sure that the reason your cache was archived from someone "from the other side of the world" is because there aren't enough geocaches in Greece to justify having a reviewer based in Greece. You ought to know that the UK has its own reviewers. There are several others in areas of Europe where geocaching is becoming more and more popular. Quote Link to comment
+garri Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Acording to the guidelines: Typically, the cache “hider” creates a virtual cache at a location where physical caches are not permitted You have to let the aprover know that you can't place a phisical cache instead of a virtual, cache recipients are a priority in geocaching. are you on vacancy. Althought it is a virtual cache You have to prove you can maintenance it. What happens if the misterious object dissapears? What is the unique object that geocachers have to answer and must be in this physical location to know the answer. You have to ask for an answer that people can't find in Google or books. They have to prove they were there. Quote Link to comment
+mtn-man Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Be aware that the guidelines also say: Placing caches on vacation or outside of your normal caching area is unacceptable and these caches may not be approved. As the cache owner you are obligated to be in a position to manage your caches, and caches placed on vacation require someone else to maintain them for you. It is not uncommon for areas to be cleared, trails to be blocked or closed, objects used for virtual or multi-caches to be moved or removed, etc. You must be able to react to negative cache logs and investigate the location quickly. Please be responsible. This guideline applies to all types of caches including virtual caches. I was particularly struck by this comment: What the heck is needed to get cachers into another country and see local history? If the area is historic enough, I would think the historic value of the area would be enough to get people to visit the location. I don't look to see if there are geocaches in an area to see if it is worth taking a vacation there. I look for the historic or scenic value of the area. If there are geocaches there then that is just an added plus. I cannot imagine that geocachers would go to Greece to visit a virtual cache and would only try to squeeze in the Parthenon if they had time for it. Quote Link to comment
+SixDogTeam Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Just follow the rules, and don't complain here. Quote Link to comment
ju66l3r Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 SixDog, this is the second thread in which you've basically said "stop complaining about your cache listing denial". I ask you to do 2 things then, in the future: 1) Don't read a thread that says "cache" "approve" or "denied" in the subject. You're more often than not going to be disappointed by the fact that someone is complaining again. 2) Read the portion of the guidelines where complaining in the forums is suggested as a means of remediation for your cache being turned down. Here, I'll quote it for you... If, after exchanging emails with the approver, you still feel your cache has been misjudged, feel free to post a message in the General Forums to see what the geocaching community thinks. If the majority believes that it should be posted, then Groundspeak administrators and approvers may review the listing and your cache may be unarchived. I would love to see a Markwell where this has worked in the past. I'm sure it will be difficult if at all possible to find, but the fact remains that the guidelines suggest coming here and complaining to seek popular opinion on your cache. Quote Link to comment
+The Leprechauns Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 I would love to see a Markwell where this has worked in the past. I'm sure it will be difficult if at all possible to find, but the fact remains that the guidelines suggest coming here and complaining to seek popular opinion on your cache. Ask and ye shall receive. Quote Link to comment
+bons Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 On reading the other thread what struck me were the things not said and not even implied. Here are some things he didn't say: What more do you need? What the heck ...how can someone the other side of the world say that a site is not up to standard, when he has not visited the site or checked into it's history ???????????????? Here are some more things he definately didn't say: if you were working for me I would fire you! I can do a better ,quicker job than you easily This is pathetic!!! I love and support this sport,perhaps you do not!!! I fully believe that the approvers are willing to work with the cachers. However, until the above markwell I was convinced that people who complained in the forum were not willing to work with the approvers. I'm really glad it was posted. Maybe someone will read it and rephrase their next reply to the approvers in a more productive fashion. Quote Link to comment
+Harrald Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 <<SNIP>> but the fact remains that the guidelines suggest coming here and complaining to seek popular opinion on your cache. Funny, I read and re-read the guidelines....I didn't see anything recommending that you "Complain" in the forums. Maybe you could quote that passage for us and provide a link? Quote Link to comment
+The Leprechauns Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 (edited) bons, I am glad you found that link to be helpful. I agree with you, the owner of that scuba cache was very patient and he communicated his points very well. That is why it immediately sprang to mind when ju66l3r stated that it would be difficult or impossible to find an example. It took me 3 minutes with a search on "scuba." For a more recent example of a happy ending, see Bad Andy's new webcam cache that was approved after being discussed here just a couple of days ago. I can search for more links, but you get the point. Good arguments win based on the facts and the clarity with which the position is expressed. When your facts suck, you are more likely to resort to personal attacks against whomever archived your cache submission. Edited to add another link. Edited June 11, 2004 by The Leprechauns Quote Link to comment
+woof n lulu Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 Placing Caches on Vacation / Beyond Your Maintainable Distance Placing caches on vacation or outside of your normal caching area is unacceptable and these caches may not be approved. As the cache owner you are obligated to be in a position to manage your caches, and caches placed on vacation require someone else to maintain them for you. It is not uncommon for areas to be cleared, trails to be blocked or closed, objects used for virtual or multi-caches to be moved or removed, etc. You must be able to react to negative cache logs and investigate the location quickly. Please be responsible. This guideline applies to all types of caches including virtual caches. Quote Link to comment
ju66l3r Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 Funny, I read and re-read the guidelines....I didn't see anything recommending that you "Complain" in the forums. Maybe you could quote that passage for us and provide a link? Check above for the part I quoted...Here it comes again..."...if you feel misjudged, then post a message...". Last time I checked the dictionary, it said that "to complain" was "express discontent, grief, dissatisfaction"...you know, if we're going to start putting quotation marks around our words. Now, on to more important issues. Leprechauns, unfortunately, the link you provided was another situation where if the rules had been followed from the beginning (e-mail for approval of a potentially commercial cache) then the posting would probably have not been necessary. Regardless of that fact, what I am looking for is when an argument of popularity actually reversed the decisions of the approvers. The SCUBA cache was not overly popular and its reversal was not due to a groundswell of support, but an administrative exception to the commercial cache guideline. BadAndy's cache was another compromise/discussion with the approver by e-mail not a result of everyone's opinions. What I'm hoping to see is a cache posting where the thread started with "can you believe this??" and the rest of it goes as "OMGWTFBBQ!! They are insane not to approve your cache!!"..and the last post in the thread is "I was the approver, and now that I see everyone wanted this cache, I will un-archive it and finish your approval process"....not the normal approval process as outlined by talking to the approver by e-mail first or e-mailing Groundspeak about a commercial cache (although the SCUBA one is about as close as I've ever seen to what I'm looking for, thanks). Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 ...bons, I am glad you found that link to be helpful. I agree with you, the owner of that scuba cache was very patient and he communicated his points very well. That is why it immediately sprang to mind when ju66l3r stated that it would be difficult or impossible to find an example. It took me 3 minutes with a search on "scuba.".. Bothe the SCUBA cache and Webcam fit the rules as they are with no streching. The threads served to show the site the light so to speak. The SCUBA magic was three posts in. "The park is non profit" which as I understand it means "non commercial" And the webcam cache gives a good pic as required per the newer webcam rules. That just wasn't as evident as Bad Andy and I (since I was kicking the tires on that webcam) thought. Now lets see you do your magic on a virtual (and tell use how many ones were never approved when you do a search on "virtual") Quote Link to comment
+The Leprechauns Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 It's 1:15 a.m. Should I sleep, or wade through 250 threads about denied virtual caches? Hmmmmmm I'll get back to you on that zzzzzzzzzzzz Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 It's 1:15 a.m. Should I sleep, or wade through 250 threads about denied virtual caches? Hmmmmmm I'll get back to you on that zzzzzzzzzzzz I knew you were smart! Quote Link to comment
+Harrald Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 <<SNIP>>. Check above for the part I quoted...Here it comes again..."...if you feel misjudged, then post a message...". <<SNIP>> So as I understand this you feel that this means to complain. I read it as asking others for an opinion. This is just a difference in our attitudes. Nuff said. Quote Link to comment
GW1VRW Posted June 14, 2004 Author Share Posted June 14, 2004 I am very surprised at the attitudes and replys that have been posted on this thread and others, don't forget folks this IS a HOBBY, and different people have different interests. I thought I was going by the guidelines, read the first paragraph, first sentance "These are listing guidelines only" "In order to ensure a prompt response when responding to an archival note please click on the Approver’s profile from the cache page and e-mail the approver through Geocaching.com." I have e-mailed the approver, to appeal, but am STILL waiting a reply. "Virtual Cache Maintenance Guidelines Although the virtual cache is not something you physically maintain, you must maintain your virtual cache's web page and respond to inquiries and periodically check the location. You should also return to the Geocaching.com web site at least once a month to show you are still active" This is no problem as I intend to visit the location at least twice a year to see what more historic items they have discovered. 2. A virtual cache must be novel, of interest to other players, and have a special historic, community or geocaching quality that sets it apart from everyday subjects. Since the reward for a virtual cache is the location, the location should “WOW” the prospective finder. I think the RENAGADE KNIGHT had it right in another thread, Part of geocaching is about getting out and seeing what there is to see. Virtuals fit that. Part of geoaching is about how to respond to not being able to find a box (because the NPS banned them). Virtuals fit that. Part of geoaching is about fun. Virtuals fit that as much as a lame urban micro does. Part of geoaching is using your GPS. Virtuals fit that. Part of geocaching ls the "Log" and telling your adventure. Virtuals fit that. Part of geoaching is about the numbers, yours, others, your next find, etc. Virtuals fit that. Part of geoaching is about finding something hidden, or at least not so obviouse. Virtuals do fit that even if what you seek isn't a box. Virtuals are accepted as caches, just as are webcams, multi caches and the like. That acceptace is all they need. Waypoint.org isn't virtual caching. Geocaching.com is. You tell me what the difference is and then you have answered your own question. Sorry if I've stamped on peoples toes and rattled a few cages, but please don't forget it is ONLY a hobby, and what some folks think are next best thing to sliced bread, others are not at all interested in. Quote Link to comment
+Criminal Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 2. A virtual cache must be novel, of interest to other players, and have a special historic, community or geocaching quality that sets it apart from everyday subjects. Since the reward for a virtual cache is the location, the location should “WOW” the prospective finder. Wow, by those guidelines, I can think of several geocacher's butts that would qualify. As one who doesn't log virts, I would really love to log some of those. Maybe that isn't the best word..... Quote Link to comment
+Mopar Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 (edited) I am very surprised at the attitudes and replys that have been posted on this thread and others, don't forget folks this IS a HOBBY, and different people have different interests.I thought I was going by the guidelines, read the first paragraph, first sentance "These are listing guidelines only" "In order to ensure a prompt response when responding to an archival note please click on the Approver’s profile from the cache page and e-mail the approver through Geocaching.com." I have e-mailed the approver, to appeal, but am STILL waiting a reply. "Virtual Cache Maintenance Guidelines Although the virtual cache is not something you physically maintain, you must maintain your virtual cache's web page and respond to inquiries and periodically check the location. You should also return to the Geocaching.com web site at least once a month to show you are still active" This is no problem as I intend to visit the location at least twice a year to see what more historic items they have discovered. 2. A virtual cache must be novel, of interest to other players, and have a special historic, community or geocaching quality that sets it apart from everyday subjects. Since the reward for a virtual cache is the location, the location should “WOW” the prospective finder. I think the RENAGADE KNIGHT had it right in another thread, Part of geocaching is about getting out and seeing what there is to see. Virtuals fit that. Part of geoaching is about how to respond to not being able to find a box (because the NPS banned them). Virtuals fit that. Part of geoaching is about fun. Virtuals fit that as much as a lame urban micro does. Part of geoaching is using your GPS. Virtuals fit that. Part of geocaching ls the "Log" and telling your adventure. Virtuals fit that. Part of geoaching is about the numbers, yours, others, your next find, etc. Virtuals fit that. Part of geoaching is about finding something hidden, or at least not so obviouse. Virtuals do fit that even if what you seek isn't a box. Virtuals are accepted as caches, just as are webcams, multi caches and the like. That acceptace is all they need. Waypoint.org isn't virtual caching. Geocaching.com is. You tell me what the difference is and then you have answered your own question. Sorry if I've stamped on peoples toes and rattled a few cages, but please don't forget it is ONLY a hobby, and what some folks think are next best thing to sliced bread, others are not at all interested in. Ok, so if my new cache meets SOME of the guidelines, it should be approved? I mean, sure it's disquised as a few sticks of dynomite with a clock attached, and I hid it next to a natural gas refinery, but it has a log book, and it's .1 miles away, so it should be approved! please don't forget it is ONLY a hobby, and what some folks think are next best thing to sliced bread, others are not at all interested in. Words to live by, not just type. If the admins and owners of this particular website aren't interested in listing your geocache, move on. It's just a game. It's just a website. There are other games, and other websites. Edited June 14, 2004 by Mopar Quote Link to comment
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