Mod Wars

1.1k · November 28, 2003

Funny, I (HAD) an unbiased opinion about the MOD WARS. But after opening a topic and asking in a nuetral fashion that everyone "Cool Out" for the sake of the sport in general I had my Topic CLOSED!!!!!!!!!!! Now I really feel censored...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Although I am NEW to the sport I do PAY DUES and do Feel as though I atleast Contribute and have a stake in the future of the sport. Funny, I don't feel as though I am viewed this way by the mods.

This is VERY, VERY SAD TO ME.

3.9k · November 28, 2003

You did have an unbiased opinion. Actually it was very similar to an opinion I had earlier in the day, yours was just a little more tame. I have to say that thread was not nearly as bad as some of the others and probably did not need to be closed IMO. I wouldn't take it personal. I think everyones a bit jumpy today/tonight. Don't freak out now, your initial attitude was the correct one and I commend you on that. Diplomacy always wins.

2.3k · November 28, 2003

If you will look at your closed thread you will see that the thread had gotten out of control. This was no fault of your own. When that happens there times when the decision is made to close a thread. It is unfortunate when a thread gets hijacked like that . Again it was not your fault and you did nothing wrong.

1.1k · November 28, 2003

Perhaps but after 1. Being patient and 2. Playing peace keeper and 3. Being patient

I feel...well...kind of crapped on by Groundspeak...this Hollier than thou Our way or the highway thing has me kinda upset.

Perhaps I should sleep on it? Gonna take a few days away from this. Hopefully things resolve themselves and my feathers become unruffled.

Edited November 28, 2003 by Johnnie Stalkers

2.3k · November 28, 2003

Perhaps you should.

You got caught in the cross fire

Sorry

3.9k · November 28, 2003

I hate to keep talking about it but I just read that thread like 4 times and I don't see where it got out of control. Other threads? Absolutely! I think Jeremy just wanted to put a stop on the whole thing, good, bad or indifferent for tonight. Maybe that's not such a bad thing. Johnny, I think your thread ended up being the unfortunate thread where Jeremy decided to step in a say his peace. I'm still not sure if I agree with it being locked but like I said, I don't think you should take it personal. CO or Jeremy, does that sound even remotely acurate or do I just need to go to sleep now? After all it is almost 2:30 in NY.

3.8k · November 28, 2003

starting a thread about moderation is like starting a thread about cache pirates. it's best to not talk about it, and it'll go away and/or resolve itself or evolve into something that people can live with.

November 28, 2003

After reading through most of all the posts (at least I think) that have been going on about this for the past day or so I think the reasons behind some of this are pretty obvious.

I think some people are just basically fed up with how this site is run, the arrogance and egotism sometimes shown by TPTB, the lack of response to requests from the customer base, the outright lies that have been told by TPTB and well, you can fill in the blank here. I think much of this was brought to a head by what in some cases was a very heavy hand (which I don’t think anybody can really deny) by some mods to close or delete threads.

Like just about any other group of people this one can be divided into three groups. Those that think TPTB are some kind of gods that can do no wrong and worship at the feet of them. Those that generally don’t care one way or the other, like some things, hate some things but will just shrug their shoulders and keep moving forward (I think by far the largest group). The third are the ones that will never be happy or see a wrong and have to question or fight it. Once they sink their teeth into something they will not let go.

Take the first and third group out of the mix because you know what is driving them. I think we have seen a number of people that would normally be in the middle group feel the need to shift to the third group recently. If I were TPTB I would have to take notice of that shift.

So in many cases I have to lay the blame squarely at the feet of TPTB. They are the ones that created this Catcher in the Rye by way of Animal Farm environment.

1.3k · November 28, 2003

One thing that I have noticed that may be adding fuel to fire is the fact that moderators have been participating in the conversations. True, they are individuals and have a right to be heard, but they gave up that right when they became a moderator. It is a simple perception of conflict of interest. Notice the word perception. What is real is not always important as what is perceived as real. Personally I view arguing with a moderator is a losing battle. They are in a place of power and no one can be sure that they are not abusing it. Once again, perception. Kind of like a bouncer at a bar. If they control the situation objectively, then the situation can be resolved. By participating they only add fuel to the fire because of the perception they are using their voice over another voice that they can silence.

Edited November 28, 2003 by Keith Watson

21.9k · November 28, 2003

Keith Watson's points are well taken and, in fact, are being considered as we develop the Code of Conduct for the volunteers who review caches and moderate the forums. We are already attempting to operate under some self-imposed guidelines. The guidelines will strike an appropriate balance between the volunteer's right to express a personal opinion, and their duties and powers as a forum moderator. The next step is to write them down and share them with the community. Stay tuned.

2.3k · November 28, 2003

True, they are individuals and have a right to be heard, but they gave up that right when they became a moderator.

Which way is it, then?

Just because they are moderators doesn't mean they can't contribute to a discussion. That's like saying, "Oh Jeremy owns the place, so his ideas are slanted and we don't want to hear them". That doesn't make sense. Everyone can contribute to a discussion in one way or another, moderator or not. It's good to get different point of views on a subject, otherwise; why even bother to discuss it?

3k · November 28, 2003

I like to think I try to keep my mod duties seperate from my personal opinions which is not always easy. If I am actively participating in a discussion then you won't see me try to moderate it anymore than I would if I wasn't a moderator. Believe it or not before I came a mod I would try and get threads back on topic and such, which worked sometimes.

I've been a geocacher first and am very active in geocaching in our local community and here so if it ever comes down to a "you can't have personal opinions and moderate these forums" then I think I would give the big ol CYA. Contributing is more important to me even though I feel a great sense of giving back.

I'm a mod in our local group MiGO and these types of issues don't come up nor do we have the same issues that you see here. Probably just a pure member numbers thing.

So anyway, I think its possible to do both and everyone can get a long harmoniously.

1.3k · November 28, 2003

The problem is the potential for abuse. Even though the intentions of a moderator are good, the result may be the perception of abuse. When contests are run, friends, employees and relatives are usually excluded. Why? Because they want to make sure no one cries foul. Jeremy is the one person I would expect to see talking here. It is his site. No matter what anybody says, what he says is the most binding in issues that deal with the site. A moderator is an impartial adjudicator here strictly to enforce the rules that Jeremy has laid out.

Moderators, and any one else that performs duties at the site should fell free to join in discussions provided the discussion does not involve things in which their actions may be questioned. Conflict of interest rules are not only put in place to prevent questionable actions, but also to prevent the perception of a questionable action. Don’t think of it as holding the moderators back, but helping them from unknowingly do something to cause someone else from misinterpreting.

Groundspeak defiantly needs a well defined could of conduct and mission statement well displayed for all to understand.

Edited November 28, 2003 by Keith Watson

November 28, 2003

How many times have we hear this phrase “The problem is the potential for abuse”

Here we go again over what might be……………JOE

2.1k · November 28, 2003

I agree in part to Keith Watson's post. I think it all matters in the fact that sometimes respect is loss for the moderators when they are in the mix of it. It's very difficult to be in an authoritarian role and be everyones friend. You should try to keep business and pleasure seperate.

2.3k · November 29, 2003

In the real world (and I use the term lightly) we have judges and arbitrators whose role it is to objectively evaluate what they hear and decide on whether to take action and what level of action is appropriate for the situation.

Most of the time the system works. Occasionally it breaks down. The moderators have a similar function and (as with humans) they will occasionally faulter and make a mistake. If we want perfect objectivity, then put it in the hands of the machines. I find that solution distasteful and so we have to put our trust in the moderators to do the right thing but realize that they may occasionaly screw up.

2.7k · November 29, 2003

Oh great!

Trust the "real world" judges.

Think about the nonsense decisions THEY have made in recent decades (and recent DAYS)!

I guess I'm on the border line of group #3.

Part of me says "It's only a stupid internet forum and doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the real world and is only a simple way for me to waste more of my precious time that God has given me so little of."

Another part of me says, "Freedom of speech is a RIGHT that my forefathers died for and it is a VERY PRECIOUS right and that giving it up, even in such an insignificant venue as a stupid internet forum is a "slap-in-the-face" to George and Patrick and Benjamin and those thousands of others that must be turning in their graves at jet turbine speeds when they see what WE have done with what THEY gave us."

At least I thank God I'll never be in group #1! <edit> Can't believe I said "never"- should be "May God grant me the grace that I never join group #1" </edit>

But all this is a waste of time. I NEED to be spending my "free" time trying to get the BMV and the insurance industry straightened out.

But then who is the patron saint of lost causes anyhow?

Edited November 29, 2003 by ChurchCampDave

24.7k · November 30, 2003

Mods are fine. They should not post as mods other than to moderate. If they want to express an opinion, put on your indivudual hat (the one the other mods don't know about) and join the fray. If you then get modded oh well. Join the club.

1.5k · November 30, 2003

Looks like I wandered back into the forum a few days too late, eh?

I keep seeing posts where everyone is reacting about what people said, but I haven't managed to find many of the posts where the people were actually SAYING what everyone reacted about.

There is far too much catching up for me to do, and I don't wanna waste time reading the fights... but from a few threads I gathered that some people think that paying members are better than non-paying.

Well, I was a paying member for a while... although I'm not currently paying. I've purchased several travel bugs, and I think I might have gotten some stickers or something... and I've hidden many good (imho) caches, but most of them have been archived since then.

So, what does that make me? Good guy or bad guy?

Oh, and I'm a big supporter of Covert Geocaching. That should get me a few points, eh?

EDIT: sleepy-induced typos

Edited November 30, 2003 by Rubbertoe

20.7k · November 30, 2003

Wow, Rubbertoe, you wrote exactly what I was thinking. I haven't been in the forums much lately and I am way out of step. IMO, there is much more whining and bickering than there used to be.

Maybe I'll just hang out with the newbies in the 'Getting Started' area for a while...

24.7k · November 30, 2003

Oh, and I'm a big supporter of Covert Geocaching. That should get me a few points, eh?

If the only evidence you leave is logs that's the perfect cache search.

If you don't even log then that defeats the purpose of why we all place caches.

1.4k · November 30, 2003

...it's best to not talk about it, and it'll go away...

Really? Is this how folks think? And the disappointed ones that voice their opinion get trashed and called children.

3.9k · November 30, 2003

...it's best to not talk about it, and it'll go away...

Really? Is this how folks think? And the disappointed ones that voice their opinion get trashed and called children.

I haven't seen anyone trashed or called a child. Maybe you could point me to a thread?

The Moderators are doing a good job overall. Sometimes they are quick to pull the trigger...maybe. Over the past few days there have been a great improvement in the fourms. I haven't seen one negative inflammatory remark in two days. They must be doing something right.

El Diablo

1.4k · November 30, 2003

...it's best to not talk about it, and it'll go away...

Really? Is this how folks think? And the disappointed ones that voice their opinion get trashed and called children.

I haven't seen anyone trashed or called a child. Maybe you could point me to a thread?

The Moderators are doing a good job overall. Sometimes they are quick to pull the trigger...maybe. Over the past few days there have been a great improvement in the forums. I haven't seen one negative inflammatory remark in two days. They must be doing something right.

El Diablo

Thread where I was suspended for disagreeing with Jeremy. I am sure this will do it again but here you go. I don't think anything I said was over the top enough for a suspension when I see posts where people really flame someone and nothing is done about it.

Other posters in that thread used asterisked profanity and just had theirs posts edited. I got suspended because it was Jeremy I was talking to. A little hypocritical I think.

Edited November 30, 2003 by Chris&Cindy

3.9k · December 1, 2003

We are trying to turn these fourms back into a positive experince. When I say "We" I'm not talking about the Admins, or the Moderators, but we the Geocaching community. The vast majority of us have had enough of the fourm wars.

Please feel free to contact me by email and I'll be more than happy to discuss this with you.

El Diablo

1.3k · December 1, 2003

This forum is the first online forum I have ever participated in. When I first began to read threads in here, I was delighted to see all of the information and ideas. I was also shocked to read a post openly criticising Jeremy, and Groundspeak. After a while, you just become numb to it, I guess. What kind of example are such posts setting for new members? I was speaking to another cacher last night, he never logs online, and doesn't spend much time reading the forums. He was as suprised as I was at the audacity of some of the forum members. Criticising Groundspeak is like looking the proverbial gift horse in the mouth. All of this is free! The forums, the cache pages, the coordinates, everything. Even the most bitter, cynical, sour old cachers in here would be lost without the resources made available on this site. As much as they complain, they would really miss it.

1.3k · December 1, 2003

Actually not all is free. There are momber only caches that you have to pay to play.

3.9k · December 1, 2003

Actually not all is free. There are momber only caches that you have to pay to play.

You know what Keith, I'll bet if you email the owners of the MOC caches they will give you the coords and they will disable the MOC so you can log it. Most people that have MOC caches do it to keep it from being plundered.

El Diablo

1.4k · December 1, 2003

Bloencustoms wrote:
All of this is free! The forums, the cache pages, the coordinates, everything.

This is true and most are grateful for these things. But you forgot to mention the free insults and free disrespect to those (ankle-biters?!?) who express their opinions or concerns about the game that are not necessarily those of the owners of this site. But you're right, no one should complain about anything.

*****

1.3k · December 1, 2003

I tell you what, some people even complain about the birthday and Christmas gifts they recieve.

1.4k · December 1, 2003

I tell you what, some people even complain about the birthday and Christmas gifts they recieve.

You are complaining, you are just doing it for the other side of the coin. You can't make everyone happy I agree with that because if you do then it is a fake happiness. But when people get flamed by the people you are defending just for making a suggestion or speaking your mind then things are different.

1.3k · December 1, 2003

In none of my posts to this thread have I complained about anything. I have made statements of my opinion, statements of fact, and asked a question.

1.4k · December 1, 2003

I tell you what, some people even complain about the birthday and Christmas gifts they recieve.

To me this appears as a complaint.

As for stateing your opinion that is what I am trying to save at this site. It is getting to the point where the new folks can't say anything without getting edited, or suspended for being non geocaching related while the mods involve themselves in dialogs about Bill Murry movies, which have nothing to do with goecaching at all. A little lop sided I think.

It is almost like the Geofarts get away with the stuff and the "newbies" pay for the same conduct.

2.3k · December 2, 2003

I tell you what, some people even complain about the birthday and Christmas gifts they recieve.

To me this appears as a complaint.

As for stateing your opinion that is what I am trying to save at this site. It is getting to the point where the new folks can't say anything without getting edited, or suspended for being non geocaching related while the mods involve themselves in dialogs about Bill Murry movies, which have nothing to do with goecaching at all. A little lop sided I think.

It is almost like the Geofarts get away with the stuff and the "newbies" pay for the same conduct.

I am pretty sure the thread you mentioned is mine. I think it has as much to do with geocaching as any on here, certainly some of the threads that have been locked. I was trying to remind EVERYONE that it the end this past time is supoosed to be FUN, and with all the BS going on sometimes it is a lot less fun. If the satellites that enable us to do our thing fell out of the sky tonite, the world WILL go on, if GC.com folded next week the world WILL go on, hence my thread is a reminder that maybe sometimes we ALL just need to LIGHTEN UP!

Flame On!

Cache On!

1.3k · December 2, 2003

Eh, what can you do?

1.1k · December 2, 2003

ok..took a time out and I feel this topic has served its purpose and is no longer really contributing anything positive by being here for the noobs to read. Thank you all for your thoughts on this matter. I would very much like to see the issues that started this whole mess resolved and all involved in a big group hug. Lets move on and get back to the real purpose of this site.....why are we here again? Oh yea, that AWESOME thing called geocaching!

21.9k · December 2, 2003

After discussing this with another moderator, we agree that the thread has run its course and are treating the topic originator's last post as a request to close this topic. We would like to thank those community members who offered constructive suggestions as this will help guide us in our moderator duties. Closing this topic.

Mod Wars

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