Virutal Caches in National Parks.

[+Eric K]

This is just a question to satisfy my curiosity. There was a local virtual cache in a National Park. However it has been archived. I asked the owner why but never got a response.

 

My question is I know caches are not allowed in National Parks but are Virtual Caches allowed in National Parks?

[+sbell111]

They can't tell us we can't come to a National Park just because we have a GPSr. Well, they probably can, but they haven't.

 

I think National Parks were why virts were created.

[+jonboy]

This tacks on to the other thread we had going, "Snake in the Grass". A virtual cache is nothing more than a set of coordinates posted on the internet. The last I heard, the National Park Service does not have authority over the internet. If this forum's administrator has been backing down to this unseemly presumption of authority, that is a grave error. This is not child pornography we are talking about here and the NPS are not on John Ashcroft's anti-terrorism team. If they think they have any legal authority to censor the internet, let them go to court. I doubt any court would even cede them legal standing. To allow ourselves to be browbeaten into surrendering our right of free speech sets a bad precedent. The NPS is facing a budget shortfall. Would picking a fight about nothing more than some satellite readings really be a wise expenditure of NPS resources? We should not seek to provoke park authorites, but neither should we surrender hard won principles in seeking to propitiate over reaching officials.

[+erik88l-r]

I think you're jumping to conclusions in assuming that a geocaching.com administrator would archive a virtual cache in a national park. That would be silly.

 

However, if someone makes a dozen virtual caches out of a string of common sights in a national park ( geyser here, a tree there, and so on) there would be an obvious hesitation in posting it. I don't think that is the sort of thing this thread is about though.

 

erik - geocaching.com adminion

[+MartyFouts]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jonboy:

This tacks on to the other thread we had going, "Snake in the Grass". A virtual cache is nothing more than a set of coordinates posted on the internet. The last I heard, the National Park Service does not have authority over the internet. If this forum's administrator has been backing down to this unseemly presumption of authority, that is a grave error. This is not child pornography we are talking about here and the NPS are not on John Ashcroft's anti-terrorism team. If they think they have any legal authority to censor the internet, let them go to court. I doubt any court would even cede them legal standing. To allow ourselves to be browbeaten into surrendering our right of free speech sets a bad precedent. The NPS is facing a budget shortfall. Would picking a fight about nothing more than some satellite readings really be a wise expenditure of NPS resources? We should not seek to provoke park authorites, but neither should we surrender hard won principles in seeking to propitiate over reaching officials.

---

 

A virtual cache may or may not be more than a set of coordinates, it might involve a puzzle or questions one has to answer.

 

Legitimate reasons for archiving a virtual cache in a national park would be that it required going off trail, into an off limits area, or otherwise encouraged inappropriate behavior in the park. Just as with any other virtual cache.

 

On the other hand, I know of no virtual cache that's been archived for those reasons. Could you point us at the cache in question?

[+Wander Lost]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eric K:

This is just a question to satisfy my curiosity. There was a local virtual cache in a National Park. However it has been archived. I asked the owner why but never got a response.

 

My question is I know caches are not allowed in National Parks but are Virtual Caches allowed in National Parks?

---

 

Can you provide a link to the cache? Maybe the owner archived it for some reason.

 

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people??

[+cactus8]

I have 2 virtual caches in National Park land. Both require email answers to my questions or their logs will be deleted. The Dead Man's Cache is in Joshua Tree National Park and the Tale of Two Signs cache is on the Colorado River on the Lake Mead National rec area. I've had nothing but positive logs for these caches!

[+cactus8]

I have 2 virtual caches in National Park land. Both require email answers to my questions or their logs will be deleted. The Dead Man's Cache is in Joshua Tree National Park and the Tale of Two Signs cache is on the Colorado River on the Lake Mead National rec area. I've had nothing but positive logs for these caches!

[+OzzieSan]

I think Virutal Parks in National Caches would be ok.

 

Sorry I had a moment of temporary insanity...

 

[+OzzieSan]

I think Virutal Parks in National Caches would be ok.

 

Sorry I had a moment of temporary insanity...

 

[+seneca]

I think that most of the rational concerns (not necessarily reasonable or legitimate concerns) that NPS has with respect to physical geocaches would also apply to virtual caches (trail blazing, disturbing fragile ecosystems etc.) Of course they will never be able to enforce restrictions on virtual geocaching (and if they try they will have some fairly serious constitutional issues on their hands. ) However, Jeremy & Co. can (on this site) regulate virtual caches (as they do). If NPS were willing to negotiate (with Jeremy & Co.) a policy to permit physical caches in National Parks, then perhaps it would be wise for Jeremy to agree to enforce a similar policy regarding virtual caches. It might just be the currency we need to negotiate the right to have physical caches in National Parks. Just a thought.

 

You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)

[+briansnat]

There are no laws (yet), that proscribe the publishing of virtual caches anywhere. This is simply a 1st Amendment issue. There are apparently some land managers who think differently. To quote Thomas Jefferson.. "They will not take away my freedoms, but if they take away my cache, can I at least keep my GPS receiver? Please?"

 

I was just being silly with the above, however it's just a matter of time before we'll have to appear in some court, somewhere, to defend our sport. I'm sure Jeremy and Groundspeak realize this and they dread the day. When it does happen, I'd hope we all stick together and provide Jeremy with the resources to keep our sport alive

 

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

[+Eric K]

By the way, gee nobody picked up on I spelled virtual wrong! :-)

 

Anyway here is the cache:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=29219

[+georgeandmary]

How dare you ask someone to count planks. What if terrorists find out?

 

george

 

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

[Night Tracker]

Thats kind of an inside joke ,George.

If I hadn't read the new virtual cache on highway 108, I woudn't have known what the heck you were talking about.TIC

[+Whidbey Walk]

Reed this post for an explanation, as well as my thoughts on this subject.

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~whidbeywalk/

[+seneca]

Whidbey Walk , I agree totally with you ... on the issue of "asking permission" there is a huge difference between placing a physical cache and posting the coordinates of a virtual one. I find it hard to believe that anyone would think otherwise.

 

You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)

[+briansnat]

This looks like an excellent virtual cache. Its a shame that it's been deactivated because some power hungry park manager on a whopper of an ego trip, decided to stomp on the cache owner's 1st Amendment rights. I would hope he would reactivate this out of principle.

 

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

[+raouljan]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrianSnat:

This looks like an excellent virtual cache. Its a shame that it's been deactivated because some power hungry park manager on a whopper of an ego trip, decided to stomp on the cache owner's 1st Amendment rights. I would hope he would reactivate this out of principle.

 

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

---

 

I am confused...

I saw nothing that said that this was removed because of a "power hungry park ranger".

I really like the A+B bit to get the final coords. Very creative - and looks like a bit of work.

 

So... why was this cache archived?

[+embra]

Most virtuals are within the normal use restrictions of park visitors (Marty noted some possible causes for exceptions). It seems reasonable to me to go ahead without asking park personnel. This strikes me as one of those situations wherein if you ask representatives of a beaurocracy a question and they don't have authority to say yes, they almost have to say no. CYA.

 

It sounds like the owner of the cache in question has longer-range goals in terms of having a working relationship with this park's supervisors...that may merit a strategic decision to cooperate with their request to withdraw the cache for the time being.

 

I'm in the middle of assembling a multi-virtual on a nearby national park. I am making a good-faith effort to construct it in such a manner that the NPS should have no cause for concern. Not being aware of any need to bother them with this, I don't plan to ask them or tell them about it.

 

max

Just visiting this planet

[+briansnat]

I believe it was disabled at the request of the park authorities.

 

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

[+SherwoodForest]

As the 'owner' of the 'cache' in question, I suppose I should chime in on this.

 

First, let me apologize to Eric K for not getting back to him sooner. I had thought I had replied to him, but in the mess of replying to people about why I'd 'disabled' (*not archived*) the Oak Hill Virtual.

 

Embra was mostly right. It is mainly a good-will gesture on my part towards the CVNP (Cuyahoga Valley National Park). There was (I think) so ill will this past spring when CVNP found several caches placed in the park yadda yadda...

 

So, after first going with the, don't ask don't tell principle, I went ahead and posted the cache. And then the guilt got the better of me, and I started tracking down who I needed to contact at the park to get 'permission' for the cache.

 

Finally, I got a hold of the head ranger for the park, who was actually quite supportive of the idea of it (as I explained to him what I wanted to do, and how the cache was set-up). Unfortunately, he was not in the position to be able to authorize the cache, and asked me to 'remove' the 'cache' until such time as I could submit a written proposal to the park superintendent about what I would like to place, etc.

 

Upon talking to the ranger, I decided to 'play nice' with their request, and temporarily disabled the cache.

 

I've been busy, and a little dejected in spirit at having had to archive it, and just haven't finished the proposal, though I hope to have something to them soon so that we geocachers and the CVNP can build a foundation to work with.

 

So why did I feel guilty? Guess that comes with volunteering with a local park district. I can see and agree with many of their concerns, and as much as I may hate having to go through the political rigamarole of submitting this, i think it is in the best interest to proceed cautiously forward, and when they give my 'cache' the OK, presumably future CVNP virtuals will be able to be approved much more quickly.

 

"You will kneel before her in her altar in the trees" - Tara MacLean, Let Her Feel The Rain