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When to delete a log...


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quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:

Go take photos of all the caches that he won't let you log. Photos showing where they are hidden, email him a copy, and then tell him you will post the photos off where the caches are to nullify the hunts.

 

He'll either have to archive the caches or let everyone and anyone in the area have easy access to his caches.

 

george

 

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

http://img.Groundspeak.com/track/5867_200.gif


 

--

 

Ummm... icon_wink.gif And just what is wrong with the MacOS, System X, perchance?

 

Humorous regards,

Firefishe

 

P.S. A URL for the *explanation* of this opinyun would be excellent icon_wink.gif

 

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From BrianSnat Quote:

??????????

 

Does it happen to be JoeGPS? ...

 

I've met JoGPS at the last Middle Tennessee Geocachers meeting about a month ago, and he's a VERY pleasant, good natured, mature, and likeable fellow. I don't think it's him, I can't see that coming from him.

 

JoGPS does generally require that you correctly answer a number of questions on his caches to get credit for them.

 

I don't know if that's the issue, or even the other cacher, but I hope that it ends well for sbell111.

 

sbell111, You may use my Salvo's Reserve Y2K cache for a surrogate if you wish, just state what's happening and that you have permission from me.(zipcode 38128)

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Check the zip for Franklin, TN and it's pretty obvious who it is, although he did miss a couple logs.

 

That was extremely petty and mean spirited. I don't know anyway to remedy the situation but I would be very ticked off.

 

I don't recommend any form of retaliation, that won't solve anything and could just lead to an escalation of the problem. Ignore him, and don't hunt anymore of his caches. If someone offers a proxy cache to log your numbers take the offer and move on.

 

Rusty...IMHO

 

Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page

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Perhaps we should e-mail a link to this discussion to Mr Joe. If we're getting the full story here, then what he is doing is petty and childish

and totally out of synch with the spirit of our sport.

 

Sbell111, if you want to use any of my caches as a "proxy", feel free to do so. I have 27, so that should help keep your counts in order. On the other hand I know it's annoying to have to page through caches you already found when searching for new caches. I don't know how that can be addressed.

 

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

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Once again I lept before I looked, when I posted my previous reply about a dozen responses up on this string.

 

Being the father of a large army of squabbling children, the paternal side of me also came forth, offering sbell111 a opportunity to use one of my sites as a surrogate. It was a sincere and well meant gesture.

 

Initially my first (knee-jerk) reaction to brainsnat's putting a name to the deleter was one of caution. Unless he really knew who it was, he shouldn't have posted it. As it turns out (to my surprise) he is correct. I spoke with JoGPS last night.

 

But before this goes any further, allow me to state this. There are indeed TWO sides to this issue. After hearing them, I really can't fault JoGPS for his reasons. I will not disclose those reasons here, but I can say that if placed in a similar situation, I would be reasonably and understandably upset as well ...as would every poster on this channel.

 

We've all heard from sbell111 that he was wronged by his cache postings being deleted. BUT the one fact that he hasn't mentioned... we haven't heard from sbell111 is what originally sparked JoGPS.

 

I believe that it is important that when telling one side of a problem, that it is important to tell the whole side so that the entire equation can be concidered when appealing for public opinion as he has done.

 

Hopefully this will be resolved soon through arbitration locally in thier area.

 

I'm sure that Steve is meaning well, and that he is a great person, and I hope to get a chance to meet and cache with him Sunday. (Hey, I offered him a surrogate ...so he can't be all bad! icon_biggrin.gif)

 

I also firmly stand by my originally stated opinions that Joe is a great person to know. He's very generous, and people oriented. He couldn't be as successful in his work as he is otherwise.

 

The Range Safety Officer reports all clear. icon_biggrin.gif

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Once again I lept before I looked, when I posted my previous reply about a dozen responses up on this string.

 

Being the father of a large army of squabbling children, the paternal side of me also came forth, offering sbell111 a opportunity to use one of my sites as a surrogate. It was a sincere and well meant gesture.

 

Initially my first (knee-jerk) reaction to brainsnat's putting a name to the deleter was one of caution. Unless he really knew who it was, he shouldn't have posted it. As it turns out (to my surprise) he is correct. I spoke with JoGPS last night.

 

But before this goes any further, allow me to state this. There are indeed TWO sides to this issue. After hearing them, I really can't fault JoGPS for his reasons. I will not disclose those reasons here, but I can say that if placed in a similar situation, I would be reasonably and understandably upset as well ...as would every poster on this channel.

 

We've all heard from sbell111 that he was wronged by his cache postings being deleted. BUT the one fact that he hasn't mentioned... we haven't heard from sbell111 is what originally sparked JoGPS.

 

I believe that it is important that when telling one side of a problem, that it is important to tell the whole side so that the entire equation can be concidered when appealing for public opinion as he has done.

 

Hopefully this will be resolved soon through arbitration locally in thier area.

 

I'm sure that Steve is meaning well, and that he is a great person, and I hope to get a chance to meet and cache with him Sunday. (Hey, I offered him a surrogate ...so he can't be all bad! icon_biggrin.gif)

 

I also firmly stand by my originally stated opinions that Joe is a great person to know. He's very generous, and people oriented. He couldn't be as successful in his work as he is otherwise.

 

The Range Safety Officer reports all clear. icon_biggrin.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Salvo:

But before this goes any further, allow me to state this. There are indeed TWO sides to this issue. After hearing them, I really can't fault JoGPS for his reasons.

 

...

 

we haven't heard from sbell111 is what originally sparked JoGPS.


 

Golly, I would like to know what his reasons are. My understanding of the 'sparking' of this issue goes back a number of months. One day, I was going to take a little caching trip out of town. In my preparation, I took a last look at the cache pages on-line so I wouldn’t search for one that was missing. The last log on one of these (I don’t remember the name of it. It was Rockettown, Rocketman, something like that, I think.) was a found log from JoGPS. The log stated that the cache was missing. I had met JoGPS a number of times and he seemed like a pretty good guy, so I shot him a friendly email. I explained that I noticed the log and thought that it might be an error. I figured that if it was an error, he would want to correct it so the cache stayed on his ‘nearest’ list. He replied with an angry email asking me if I was the ‘Cache Police’. I replied with an email trying to diffuse the situation, explaining that I was just trying to help him out and didn’t mean to step on his toes.

 

Ever since, I have had nothing but grief from him. He has sent me many menacing emails, he has talked about me consistently to other cachers, he has recruited other cachers to send me bogus and bullying emails. I believe that he removed my cache ‘Great Caesar’s Ghost cipher’. I believe this because it was found and checked by me on one day. The next day, an email was received from JoGPS suggesting that I should check on my cache and laughing. On the way home from work the following day, I checked on it. It was missing. A little too coincidental, I think. Finally, he began repeatedly deleting my ‘find’ logs.

 

The simple fact is, I could care less if he likes me or not. I tried to be friendly with him and it blew up in my face. I’m not asking to be his bud, I only expect him to leave me alone. I am basically a solitary cacher. I enjoy this activity because it gives me a chance to get away and be by myself. I expect him to treat me and my logs the same way any cacher would expect to be treated.

 

As for local arbitration, I have requested assistance from the local club and nothing has come of it.

 

If there are any doubts as to my honor and actions, please check the other caches that I have logged or hidden and postings made within the forums. I have always treated other cachers with respect. My finds are all appropriate. You will note that I started this thread to elicit advice from my peers regarding a problem I am having. I purposefully avoided giving out the individuals name in this thread because I did not want to damage his character in any way. JoGPS, on the other hand, has taken every opportunity to attack my character and I am more than tired of it. I have no idea what he has been telling other people about how this started, but I believe that I have only withheld information that would damage him.

 

In my opinion, the appropriate resolution to this problem is for no cacher to delete appropriate logs. I appreciate the offer to post ‘substitution’ find logs, but I don’t think that resolves the issue. First, it leaves many found caches on my ‘nearest’ list. Second, it removes caches from my list that I may want to hunt one day. I do from time to time travel and hunt caches out-of-state.

 

Salvo, please understand that while I have quoted you above, this posting is not necessarily directed at you and should not be considered a personal attack in any way. Sorry for the rant.

 

[This message was edited by sbell111 on August 22, 2002 at 01:03 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Salvo:

After hearing them, I really can't fault JoGPS for his reasons. I will not disclose those reasons here...


 

Salvo, this really doesn't help matters - particularly your own credibility. If you know something, and want to shed some light on the subject, then share it with us. If you have promissed to keep the specific information confidential, then we would all be better off without you saying anything.

 

You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)

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quote:
Originally posted by Belleterre:

I read the thread you refer to sbell and I'm totally amazed a what some consider a find. It reminds me of Clinton wanting a definition of 'is'. How many rules do we really need when 'find' should be a pretty easy word to understand?


 

Here is a situation that happened to me of logging a find when I didn't "find it".

Decator,AL Drop Dead- Alpha cache (maybe beta?). The cache was not there. Owner went and the cache was not there. He (with his permision) let me log it as a virtual find. I was in the right place and we both knew it. He quickly replaced the cache and it was 2 (or so) weeks before I made back down that far again, I went and made my "find offical" and signed the log book.

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quote:
Originally posted by Belleterre:

I read the thread you refer to sbell and I'm totally amazed a what some consider a find. It reminds me of Clinton wanting a definition of 'is'. How many rules do we really need when 'find' should be a pretty easy word to understand?


 

I agree whole heartedly on that. If you dont find the cache then how can it be a find? This has been discussed in other threads and some people just play different.

 

But getting back to the topic at hand,,,, there is still no logical reason why sbells logs are deleted by him. JoGPS doesnt like him, so what! Sbell found some of his caches so the finds should be counted!!!

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I have deleted only one log on one of my caches. It was a web cam cache on Hilton Head at the Salty dog café. The cache page clearly says.

 

“For a valid find you will need to post a valid picture of you or your group from the web cam.”

 

Unlike most web cam caches, the Salty Dog’s web cam takes, and saves a picture every minute so when you return home you can look up your picture by the date, and time you were there and save it. Rather than having to call a friend at home to log on and save the picture for you. This is and the instructions for retrieving your pictures are included in the cache page. Mostly an on your honor sort of thing since there is no log book to go back and check and I have no way of knowing if its really their pictures.

 

Here is the cache

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=21220

 

Well early this month someone posted a “find” on it claiming they had found the web cam but no one was at home to get the picture. I sent them an email explaining how to log a valid find and how to retrieve their picture from the Salty dog website. 2 weeks later I had not received a reply to my email and the “find” was

still imageless, so I deleted the log. If there were a way to edit it to a “note” I would have.

 

I have also encrypted peoples logs for including the spoiler information in their logs.

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Everyone makes "editing" mistakes. To each his own. Let your conscience be your guide.

 

How many of you log a miss? We do when ever we don't find one. It's only fair. Obviously the point of logging your find is to "keep score", sorta speak.

 

Any time we don't find one, we log it as such.

 

Upinyachit

icon_smile.gif

 

Our feet go where the caches are! feet.gif

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Everyone makes "editing" mistakes. To each his own. Let your conscience be your guide.

 

How many of you log a miss? We do when ever we don't find one. It's only fair. Obviously the point of logging your find is to "keep score", sorta speak.

 

Any time we don't find one, we log it as such.

 

Upinyachit

icon_smile.gif

 

Our feet go where the caches are! feet.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by upinyachit:

How many of you log a miss? We do when ever we don't find one. It's only fair. Obviously the point of logging your find is to "keep score", sorta speak.


 

I log misses, although I do have certain criteria. For example, I logged a miss recently at the Palisades cache. I was in the right area, but was too exhausted from heat and lack of water to reach the cache.

 

Basically if a cache is obtainable from where I'm standing with my GPS, and I either can't find it or I'm too exhausted to continue on to it, I log it as a miss.

 

snazzsig.jpg

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Sorry to not have responded sooner sbell111. I was travelling to DC on 8/21, and I spent a good part of the afternoon hiking the DC area from a pont just south of the Pentagon then over the Jefferson Bridge to the Jefferson Memorial. icon_cool.gif

 

I then hit a number of caches along the southern expanse of 'The MALL' (the open expanse of memorials between the Congress Building and the Lincoln Memorial). At the end of my trek, the GPS reported a distance covered of just over 13 miles on foot. My dogs were barkin' last night! icon_biggrin.gif This is probably my last opportunity to hit these caches due to AT&T downsizing. icon_frown.gif

 

No offense taken on quoting me. I hope you guys are able to work this out just before the local cacher meeting in Nashville.

 

I'll be there too, if there are no further health issues with my youngest Daughter.

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Sorry to not have responded sooner sbell111. I was travelling to DC on 8/21, and I spent a good part of the afternoon hiking the DC area from a pont just south of the Pentagon then over the Jefferson Bridge to the Jefferson Memorial. icon_cool.gif

 

I then hit a number of caches along the southern expanse of 'The MALL' (the open expanse of memorials between the Congress Building and the Lincoln Memorial). At the end of my trek, the GPS reported a distance covered of just over 13 miles on foot. My dogs were barkin' last night! icon_biggrin.gif This is probably my last opportunity to hit these caches due to AT&T downsizing. icon_frown.gif

 

No offense taken on quoting me. I hope you guys are able to work this out just before the local cacher meeting in Nashville.

 

I'll be there too, if there are no further health issues with my youngest Daughter.

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My credibility is something that those who know of me or have have needed to interact with me is a point of non-consideration. Whenever I have ever committed to a course of action or even taken a stance on an issue. I will always hold the fidelity of my belief and course.

 

I've received a couple of emails from a few who are wondering why I'm holding my position. Well, I feel I certainly couldn't be reputable if I readily or easily changed my stance due to mass opinion.

 

Nor will I betray any trust or confidentiality by disclosing particular details from both parties. Especially when it will really not make the difference. Both parties can arbitrate this with the local group meeting, and it can be resolved.

 

Sincerely, haven't we all had one of those moments when we haven't put forth our best public face? (What I call National Geographic Moments).

I'm sure that this will be resolved without a lot of mass discussion.

 

Now to really get back on subject...

As for me, I haven't had a need yet to delete anyone's logs. But if I ever would have to, I'll send a note to the offender when I do it, to specifically tell him why I felt it was necessary that I had to.

 

As many have said, it's ONLY a game! icon_biggrin.gif

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My credibility is something that those who know of me or have have needed to interact with me is a point of non-consideration. Whenever I have ever committed to a course of action or even taken a stance on an issue. I will always hold the fidelity of my belief and course.

 

I've received a couple of emails from a few who are wondering why I'm holding my position. Well, I feel I certainly couldn't be reputable if I readily or easily changed my stance due to mass opinion.

 

Nor will I betray any trust or confidentiality by disclosing particular details from both parties. Especially when it will really not make the difference. Both parties can arbitrate this with the local group meeting, and it can be resolved.

 

Sincerely, haven't we all had one of those moments when we haven't put forth our best public face? (What I call National Geographic Moments).

I'm sure that this will be resolved without a lot of mass discussion.

 

Now to really get back on subject...

As for me, I haven't had a need yet to delete anyone's logs. But if I ever would have to, I'll send a note to the offender when I do it, to specifically tell him why I felt it was necessary that I had to.

 

As many have said, it's ONLY a game! icon_biggrin.gif

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I had hoped sbell would get the message I've been consistently

sending. Since he insists on airing this in public, he's gotten

this forum whipped into a frenzy. Now that my mailbox is being

littered with hate mail, I suppose I need to discuss it here.

 

But first, shame on all the forum readers that suggested sbell "kick

his butt", "TP his house", "strike back", "plunder his caches" and other

silly things. Kudos to those of you that suspected that there might be

two sides to any issue issue. I just wish that more of you realized that

not everyone likes to air things quite as publicly as sbell does. Since

there are two sides to anything and forum groupies insist on pushing this,

here's the other. We have a history of friction, but there was only

one thing that lead to his permanent banishment from my caches.

 

His one physical cache in the area a few months ago disappeared. (It was

in a highly visible area, so this wasn't a huge shock to many of us.)

You immediately posted a note on the page proclaiming I had stolen it.

Many people watch that list and saw you call me a thief. You then edited

the note to not call me out by name, but then hounded and harrassed the

local club demanding they take "action" on this. The officers of the

club didn't want to get involved, but you kept kept getting louder

and more annoying to the point of frightening them. (They held their

ground.) Since that time, you've taken every potshot you can at me as

publicly as you can.

 

Since I really don't like being called a thief, I studied my options that

would not make my mama turn in her grave. (That precluded the "butt-kicking"

and "TP his house" style of many here in the forums.) Since

you were obviously not having fun at my caches and since we weren't playing

nicely together we should stop playing. We should each take our toys

and play with others. I deleted my find from your cache and then deleted

your finds from mine. Calling me a thief and then scoring finds based

on my work just isn't the way it works.

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I'm glad that you finally checked in with your side. Many of your defenders here describe you as an easygoing and decent person. You may well have a legit beef with Sbell111, but even after hearing your side, it appears that you are holding a childish grudge by deleting his legitimate finds. I've never met you, but personally I don't think an "easygoing" and "decent" person would be so petty. I'd say go TP his house and leave his

legit finds be.

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quote:
Originally posted by jogps:

I had hoped sbell would get the message I've been consistently

sending. Since he insists on airing this in public, he's gotten

this forum whipped into a frenzy.


 

Actually, I aired my issue in public, but avoided identifying you personally.

 

quote:

His one physical cache in the area a few months ago disappeared. (It was

in a highly visible area, so this wasn't a huge shock to many of us.)

You immediately posted a note on the page proclaiming I had stolen it.


 

The cache, while in a public park was (is) very well concealed. A review of the cache page will show that many of the experienced cachers who arrive at the final location have difficulty locating it. It should also be noted that I accused you of removing my cache because you sent me an email that all but copped to it. In your email, you wrote, 'Hows your cache? Heeee Heee Hee'. I had done cache maintenance less than a day before, but somehow you already knew there was a problem.

 

quote:
Since that time, you've taken every potshot you can at me as publicly as you can.


 

Again, I have gone out of my way to not take potshots at you. I contacted three people regarding your inappropriate actions, The President of the local club, an Admin, and Jeremy. In fact, you have been the one to trash me at every opportunity.

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quote:
Originally posted by sbell111:

Actually, I aired my issue in public, but avoided identifying you personally.


 

You didn't avoid it very well. My copy of the watch notice from your note on the cache definitely had you calling him by name. You were also pretty careful to leave a precise trail of crumbs in this thread for others to discover the identity, so I just can't nominate you for heroism on preserving the hypothetical nature of this discussion.

 

quote:
The cache, while in a public park was (is) very well concealed.

 

I know where the cache was. (Caesar was something like my sixth find ever and my first "no find".) Yes, the location of the box itself is well concealed. But are you honestly maintaining that a cacher that's found the box would be well concealed while fetching it and logging up? I hope not; it'd be hard to log it with a potential audience of under 20 people at any time during daylight hours.

 

quote:
I accused you of removing my cache because you sent me an email that all but copped to it. In your email, you wrote, 'Hows your cache? Heeee Heee Hee'. I had done cache maintenance less than a day before, but somehow you already knew there was a problem.

 

I don't much care what you think of Joe, but I'm suprised you apparently think he's an idiot. Even if Joe was nuts enough to take your box (and I don't believe for a minute he is - what would he gain by it?) would he brag about it in email to you? Sorry, that just doesn't make sense. Besides, Email to an individual isn't that difficult to forge.

 

quote:
I contacted three people regarding your inappropriate actions, The President of the local club, an Admin, and Jeremy.

 

The local club (I'm an officer) checked the charter and could find nothing about feud negotations and thus declined involvement. Would you like to say in the groups how many times we had to decline your requests?

 

Apparently you think so little of JoGPS as to publicly call him a thief, but still want to hunt caches he's placed and then act suprised when he's offended.

 

I don't get it.

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quote:
Originally posted by robertlipe:

You didn't avoid it very well. My copy of the watch notice from your note on the cache definitely had you calling him by name.


 

You're absolutely right. When I found out that he removed my cache, I was upset and 'outed' him on my cache page. This note was up for about two hours before I removed his name. I think its interesting that JoGPS had my cache on his watch list when he had logged it several months prior. This is especially disconcerting since he had not made it a secret that he disliked me. Oh yeah, then there's the issue of the cache disappearing and his email laughing about it.

 

quote:

I know where the cache was. (Caesar was something like my sixth find ever and my first "no find".) Yes, the location of the box itself is well concealed. But are you honestly maintaining that a cacher that's found the box would be well concealed while fetching it and logging up? I hope not; it'd be hard to log it with a potential audience of under 20 people at any time during daylight hours.


 

This is why I caution people to be careful when logging this cache. I also contacted the last finder to inquire as to whether someone could have seen the transaction.

 

quote:
I'm suprised you apparently think he's an idiot. Even if Joe was nuts enough to take your box (and I don't believe for a minute he is - what would he gain by it?) would he brag about it in email to you? Sorry, that just doesn't make sense. Besides, Email to an individual isn't that difficult to forge.

 

I think JoGPS thinks so much of himself that he thinks he can get away with anything. I agree that emails can be forged, but that doesn't mean that all emails have been forged.

 

quote:
The local club (I'm an officer) checked the charter and could find nothing about feud negotations and thus declined involvement. Would you like to say in the groups how many times we had to decline your requests?

 

The club did not decline my requests, it ignored them. Its not the same thing. It should probably also be noted that JoGPS is also an officer of the club. Forgive me, but just because you want to stick up for your friend, doesn't make him a stellar guy.

 

quote:
Apparently you think so little of JoGPS as to publicly call him a thief, but still want to hunt caches he's placed and then act suprised when he's offended.

 

I don't get it.


 

Its not so complicated. I refuse to let JoGPS dictate whether I have the right to play the game in the same manner as everyone else. If I let him have his way, it means that it is OK for him to bully me. That is not going to happen.

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