"Excessive" publicity

[+jeremyp]

I was going to reply to a post from Huga about publicity on another thread, but it got locked for unrelated reasons, so I'm posting on a new thread instead.

 

There is a viewpoint that publicity for geocaching is bad because it'll attract the attention of "unsavoury" people namely those that think it is more fun to trash geocaches than to take part in the sport constructively.

 

I do not think that trashing will be a serious problem for some time - if ever.

 

Firstly, you need a GPS receiver to do it systematically. The odd cache is going to be discovered by accident and vandalised every now and again. That's the luck of the draw. How many vandals are seriously going to buy a GPS receiver just to trash caches? Surely it's cheaper just to go for phone boxes?

 

The second problem with systematically trashing caches is that it takes a lot of effort. Each time I go out caching I spend maybe an hour researching and route planning to decide what to do. Then I'm out driving around in my car for the best part of a day and walking an average of about three or four miles. All this to find and log three or four caches. I really don't think that the average small minded vandal mentality is going to have the kind of patience you need to do all that.

 

Finally, I get very uncomfortable about the idea that caching should always be a small exclusive club. Considering that only a year and a week ago I was outside the club (darn it: forgot about my anniversary!), I find it distasteful that I should seek to deny this sport to other people.

 

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

[Moss Trooper]

Yer mean to say that my moment of fame was fer nowt.. "Oh!!! flippin eck" (cleaned up version)

 

I spent time on the phone, money and miles setting up a cache fer Computer Active to promote the hobby so all could enjoy..

 

Jeremyp's comment of "unsavoury" people namely those that think it is more fun to trash geocaches than to take part in the sport constructively" is true.

 

Fer a start.. who would spend 120 quid.. and at times hours thrashing around in scrub just to upset the apple cart.. not many me thinks.

 

The more folks we can get interested the better fer the sport/hobby as a whole..

 

Moss de Boss... Sorta

[MCL]

Although I can see both sides here I am inclined to agree with Huga on this one. I think we have to be careful for the following three reasons:

 

1- We don't know how often at present our caches are discovered by accident, if the discoverers don't fill in the log book. It may be the case that they are found quite often (by people with dogs out walking for example), but because we are relatively unknown, people tend to leave them be after reading the info inside the box. If we were much better known, I can imagine the scenario whereby finders do one of three things "for a laugh"...(i) leave it be, (ii) move it to a new location ("ahh lets see what their wonderful GPS units make of THIS..haha") or (iii) trash it or remove it completely

 

I suspect that (ii) might be a higher probability than the other two because to the finder, moving it would not in theor eyes be doing any damage, but of course to us its as good as trashed. This option kinda slips in under the guilty-conscience radar.

 

2- It takes a GPS unit for a cacher to find his prize. But what if you have a few thousand pairs of eyes in the area and no GPS? I think it would be quite likely that one of them would eventually stumble on one. Especially if they were the sorts of people who often inhabit woods and fields and publiuc park areas....like teenagers. I remember well the late 80s craze for the VW car badges that swept through the teenage population following the wearing of one by the Beastie Boys. All it takes is for us to be well known enough for the sport to be featured in Eastenders or something, and the subplot being about some yobs who trash one (a throwaway line in a soap is a masively powerful thing) and suddenly every teenager of like mind will want to do the same. This is dangerous exposure and I don't think we want it just yet.

 

3- It strikes me that a new sport could be created by people who don't like us being "big" and "successful" and "in the media". Some loony could decide that the new sport of "geosnatching" is a fun game. You buy a GPS, and then set about - with your mates in competition - destroying as many caches as you can. Of course there is a balance here since the more get destroyed, the fewer there are for everyone else. But hey, after a bit the sport can evolve in a new direction, the "how fast can we pounce on a new cache" idea. Eventually, even further down the road, geocachers cotton onto this and stop planting caches. Once all the remaining caches are discovered, BOTH sports will die. Now you may ask youself who would do that? do people go about acting in ways that ruin their own futures as well as that of others? Has this sort of thing happened before? Well, lets ask a friendly historian why there are no trees on Easter Island (OK there may be *now* after reintroduction in recent years)? Lets talk about the Dodo. Or even Cod fishing in the North Sea. Lets talk about global warming if you like, although some scientists are not fully convinced yet.

 

Get the picture?

 

No, at the present lets keep growth to steady, sustainable levels, and not try and grow to far and too fast. Otherwise i think we will end up regretting it. We need to develop, in years to come, ways of "policing" the cache sites if the sport is going to have tens of thousands of followers in the future. I don't have any ideas as to how this might be done, I am just saying we will need to work on it if the sport is to grow to huge numbers.

 

Having said all that, I am open to persuasion on the whole topic!

 

No trees were harmed during the production of this posting, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced....

[+Nia]

I can also see both sides of this

However I tend towards MCL and Huga.

 

My reasoning is that I feel (rightly or wrongly) that geocaching in the UK has a maximum sustainable number of geocachers.

 

The faster you bring people into the sport the sooner we will reach this number.

 

Also;

 

Geocaching needs people who can stick to the rules, without being policed.

Every geocache I have found has included a 'stashnote' and has been placed within the guidelines, with increasing numbers we will get more people who believe that they do not need to follow the rules (there has been at least 1 in the past).

 

On the other side, we have introduced a few local children and some friends to geocaching. So I guess we are hypocrites.......or maybe still undecided

 

Tech-no notice

[+Pharisee]

This looks like a thread that could run for some time as I suspect that opinions will be pretty divided. So I’m going to add my two-penny worth now.

Like most of you, I guess, I came to into Geocaching (I should say Geocaching came to me) by word of mouth. A mate at work mentioned it in passing, it sounded interesting and here I am. It complimented my other serious interest perfectly. That other interest being fishing for pike. If you’ll hang in there with me for a few moments, you’ll see where this is leading.

Some years ago, pike fishing in Scotland (apart from on Loch Lomond) was almost unheard of. Salmon and trout being considered the only quarry worth pursuing. Then a small group of anglers, looking for somewhere away from the over-crowded waters of England and Ireland, turned their attention to the more remote lochs on the Scottish west coast. They found them to be full of big pike!! They kept what they’d found to themselves and for a few years they enjoyed superb sport in wild, unspoilt countryside. However, word of this pike fishing paradise gradually got out and eventually reached the ears of one or two of the sports Big Names. The next week these guys were on the front page of every fishing paper in the country with photographs of the big pike they’d caught in the lochs that they’d discovered!! You can guess what happened next… just about every pike angler in the country was crashing about in the Scottish undergrowth looking for these big pike. As bank access to these lochs is mostly private and somewhat limited, it became so bad that people were actually queuing up, for days sometimes, waiting for the piece of bank they wanted to fish to become vacant. Pike aren’t stupid and those that survived being caught every few days or so moved away from these areas. The result… the quality of the fishing deteriorated rapidly but strangely, that didn’t stop more and more people from coming. What was unspoilt countryside is now no longer unspoiled, there’s the usual litter, the seemingly inevitable environmental damage and a number of alienated landowners and estate managers.

I’m not suggesting that frequently opened caches will get up and move away but their hiding places will inevitably suffer and become more obvious. Personally, I don’t want to form part of an orderly queue in the nearest car park and wait my turn to walk down the well-trodden path to a cache.

I’ve told friends and relations about my new pass-time, as I’m sure you all have and that’s good but as the number of people enjoying our pass-time grows so the number of potential geocachers grows (maybe exponentially, Jeremyp?).

My opinion, for what it’s worth… I seriously think that any major publicity for geocaching can only have a detrimental effect on what is by its very nature a somewhat secretive pursuit. Let’s spread the good word by all means but please, can we keep it off the front page of The Sun.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty. To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

Sorry about the edits... I seem to have disleksik fingers today !!

[This message was edited by The Pharisee on November 19, 2002 at 04:17 AM.]

 

[This message was edited by The Pharisee on November 19, 2002 at 04:20 AM.]

[+SimonG]

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Pharisee:

Pike aren’t stupid and those that survived being caught every few days or so moved away from these areas.

---

So the more anglers there were, the less pike there were... but with geocaching it's the other way around.

 

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B hejn oia i filmn mip rhffhvbem, dck B acjqna bekh ie iffnpvip iea fhgk obx. - Nxh Zobfbzg

[+Huga]

Not true.

Not everyone has the time or inclination to set caches. yes, there will always be some of the new cachers who will set caches, but I reckon that if it becomes more public, the new cachers will be more finders than hiders (a la Pike fishing...kinda), and there will be a lower cache-to-cacher ratio.

 

And that'll be bad. I remember being at West Kennett LongBarrow cache...I had to wait for someone to leave the cache so I could then 'find' it, and as I was leaving, another guy turned up and said "oooh, is that where the cache is?". Orderly queues in carparks? Not me.

 

--

**Mother is the name of God on the lips of all children**

[+Pharisee]

quote:

---

Originally posted by SimonG:

So the more anglers there were, the less pike there were... but with geocaching it's the other way around.

---

 

Well... possibly!! but to use the same comparison, I would much rather spend all day hunting (and hopefully catching) one big pike than spend all day catching a lot of little ones. The same goes for geocaching. Although I'm new to the game, I know I would get more satisfaction from finding one hard cache than I would from driving around and doing half a dozen easy ones. In both games, for me it's quality rather than quantity. I don't play the numbers game.

The more poeple that start looking for caches, the more people there will be that want to place them. I'm pretty sure a lot of them would be pushed under a covenient hedge, a few yards from the nearest car park but I suspect I'm getting my threads crossed a bit here. There is already a current discussion on the virtues, or otherwise, of *Harder Caches*

The relatively few caches that I've found, I've enjoyed finding and the rewards have generally been good. I've traded stuff and tried to put back stuff of at least an equal quality for the next finder. If you follow any of the American threads, you'll be aware of the discontent there is with caches that get filled up with broken toys from McDonalds. It would be a shame if that happened here and I suspect it would if the game was to widely publicised. There are too many poeple that will take all and leave nothing. Sorry if that sounds cynical... I've been around long enough to have my faith in human nature tempered with reality.

 

John

 

**************************************************

 

To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty. To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

[+Team Minim]

Could members only caches be the answer?

that way you can publicise to all, the open tourist class of cache and save the real GPS anorak stuff for the real GPS anoraks.

I know there's a body of opinion either way, but I wonder if this way why members only caches were invented?

 

Shares in Tupperware? Be a Geocacher!

[+SimonG]

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Pharisee:

I know I would get more satisfaction from finding one hard cache than I would from driving around and doing half a dozen easy ones.

---

But harder caches get fewer finds anyway, so they're less likely to suffer from over-visitation. In fact, planting more challenging caches is probably a great way to keep away the 'hoi polloi'. And if you make them 'members only' too, I don't think the problem will ever arise.

 

______________________________________________________________________________________

B hejn oia i filmn mip rhffhvbem, dck B acjqna bekh ie iffnpvip iea fhgk obx. - Nxh Zobfbzg

[+The Northumbrian]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Team Minim:

Could members only caches be the answer?

that way you can publicise to all, the open tourist class of cache and save the real GPS anorak stuff for the real GPS anoraks.

I know there's a body of opinion either way, but I wonder if this way why members only caches were invented?

 

Shares in Tupperware? Be a Geocacher!

---

 

Please put me right if this comment is wrong.

If we had members only caches, that is to say that EVERYBODY who wants to find a cache will have to pay their subs first before they can see a cache displayed, If this is right then any newcomers will will not have the chance to find a few and then if they like the sport, pay the subs. which is very reasonable for what we get.

I like to see newcomers to the sport and get great enjoyment from reading the logs they post.

I did notice a part of the site which alows you , if you wish to make any of your caches mebers only

If we ever had a problem in an area that caches are getting trashed, then for a trial period they could be made members only . I think that trashers would not want to travel out of the way just find some to trash in another county, they would get sick before we did, and at the same time find it an expensive hobby going around trashing caches, just my views and open to debate.

 

Been busy for a couple of days and come back on the forum to find hell on , and we all know why

I may contact the UN inspectors over it

Nige

[+Pharisee]

quote:

---

But harder caches get fewer finds anyway, so they're less likely to suffer from over-visitation. In fact, planting more challenging caches is probably a great way to keep away the 'hoi polloi'. And if you make them 'members only' too, I don't think the problem will ever arise.

---

 

I suspect that you're right. Guess I'll have to fork out some wedge and become a Charter Member. Can't get any fun for free these days, can you? (That was a rhetorical question... i don't want to know... )

 

To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty. To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

[Team Tate]

These debates go on and on.

 

1) If people want to Geocache - let them! The MORE the merrier as far as I am concerned.

 

2) If people want to trash caches - they will - there is nothing we can do about it. Just follow the guidelines when hiding your cache (no people around, remote areas, etc.) are make it as hard as possible.

 

3) Stop bickering. Enough of the 'he said/she said' mentality. Reading these forums is like a trip back to my old school playground.

 

Team Tate

 

Remember - if it's moving, it's not dead...

[Seifer]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Team Tate:

These debates go on and on.

 

1) If people want to Geocache - let them! The MORE the merrier as far as I am concerned.

 

2) If people want to trash caches - they will - there is nothing we can do about it. Just follow the guidelines when hiding your cache (no people around, remote areas, etc.) are make it as hard as possible.

 

3) Stop bickering. Enough of the 'he said/she said' mentality. Reading these forums is like a trip back to my old school playground.

 

Team Tate

 

Remember - if it's moving, it's not dead...

---

 

Here Here

 

Michael aka 1/2 of Team Blitz

 

Wqablz-xqxw tdqml kwfwm twjowcl di klelqklqok ejw hepw gt dm lbw ktdl!

 

26 27.75 34.2(recuring) 41.09275 480.048 55.027777777(carrys on!) 62.01749271

[+Kouros]

Of course, the following is only my opinion...

 

For any sport, there is always someone who tries to "win" by acting unsportsmanlike.

 

In Geocaching, there is no emphasis on the Win, and so people could, in my opinion, be attempted to subvert this by spoiling the fun for others.

 

Geocaching is very simple...

 

Try to be uncommercial (we've already dealt with this... I'll stay well away from it)

 

Be covert (draw attention to yourself, and people will investigate the cache. Obviously, some will be kind, and perhaps even take up the sport - but some will think it amusing to trash the cache).

 

Have fun!

 

There's nothing else required... But I do think my current sig sums up caching nicely.

 

It seems to me, that as long as people use their common sense, it doesn't matter who knows about caching, because those who would want to spoil the sport haven't got direct access to it, without coming across a cache by accident; as other have pointed out, who would buy a GPS, and go on a cache hunt just to wreck a cache? Not many, I'd wager.

 

Look forward to meeting you all at the next meet.

 

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

[+Pharisee]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Team Tate:

These debates go on and on.

---

 

Yes, Team Tate… that’s the whole point of having a discussion forum !! It’s probable that this topic has been discussed before but as new people are coming into geocaching all the time (part of the topic under discussion) then that’s what WILL happen. Newcomers have every right to discuss topics that are of concern to them even if there have been earlier threads on the subject. If the subject bores you, you’re not obliged to read the postings.

 

quote:

---

1) If people want to Geocache - let them! The MORE the merrier as far as I am concerned.

---

 

I don’t think anyone has suggested stopping them… The subject under discussion is whether geocaching should be actively publicised.

 

quote:

---

2) If people want to trash caches - they will - there is nothing we can do about it. Just follow the guidelines when hiding your cache (no people around, remote areas, etc.) are make it as hard as possible.

---

 

Of course they will. Every society has its share of mindless morons. Do we really want to make it easier for them?

 

quote:

---

3) Stop bickering. Enough of the 'he said/she said' mentality. Reading these forums is like a trip back to my old school playground.

---

 

Would you care to elucidate on that? Having just looked back through the postings, all I’ve found is a number of geocachers having a good-natured discussion on the pro’s and con’s of publicity. Bickering… I don’t think so. As for the 'he said/she said mentality'… sorry, Team Tate, I haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about. I can find nothing in the preceeding postings on this thread that could possibly give rise to such a comment.

 

John

 

.................................................

 

To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty. To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

[+dylanhayes]

I'll probably get flamed for this but I don't think casual trashing is actually a bad thing in the long run.

 

I have had a cache trashed and was very fustrated by it, so I know how annoying it is from the point of view of the hider and the seeker. But

inevitably caches are going to vanish for various reasons, some due to foraging animals, or the landowner discovering the cache (how many caches have the express permission of the landowner?), or event natural causes like flooding. And of course some will be discovered by morons who will steal bits and scatter the rest. But at the same time new caches carry on being added (In fact my impression is that the number of *caches* has risen faster than the number of *cachers*). This means the cache 'population' of the UK is changing all the time which helps keep the activity challenging. After all some areas of the UK are pretty saturated with caches which tends to discourage the placing of new caches in the same area. If you happen to be a cacher in that area once you have done all the local caches you will have to travel further to find new caches or do something else, but if some old caches disappear and new one come along it means you can still do some caching locally.

 

Granted, if somebody was systematically destroying caches in a well planned attack then it would be a bad thing, although unless somebody was persuing a personal vendetta I doubt they would go to that sort of effort and expense just to remove some plastic boxes. Even then I don't think it would do as much damage to geocaching as allowing the activity to wither and die as the novelty wears off and existing cachers become less active cachers without being replaced by new eager cachers.

 

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Don't mention the mushrooms

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[+Team Minim]

I suspect there is some kind of ecological rule akin to simon Gs "reverse pike analogy".

If there are too many public caches in an area then should some be members only, if there are not enough caches in an area, do not allow members only ones, Where there are too many geocachers encourage caches to be members only.

I'm not sure of the details but like Dylan I think the turnover of caches through whatever process, predators or time limits would be useful.

It sounds like a headache to administer, but I suspect that is what might evolve if numbers of caches and cachers continue to grow.

Of course the biggest threat to caching is not the sport itsself but the idea that we are "littering" the countryside with non biodegradable material might seem apealing to a daft politician

 

Shares in Tupperware? Be a Geocacher!

[+jeremyp]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Team Minim:

I suspect there is some kind of ecological rule akin to simon Gs "reverse pike analogy".

If there are too many public caches in an area then should some be members only, if there are not enough caches in an area, do not allow members only ones, Where there are too many geocachers encourage caches to be members only.

---

 

The only problem with this idea is who decides how many "too many" is. I suspect there are as many different opinions as therer are cachers.

 

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

[+Team Minim]

A formula based on population density, cache density, number of cachers in the area,

I'd leave it to the mathematicians to sort out.

That way it would be infinity before we got an answer

 

Shares in Tupperware? Be a Geocacher!

[MCL]

Incidentally, calling yourselves Team Minim and saying you hold on twice as long implies of course that the rest of us are all crotchety...

 

No trees were harmed during the production of this posting, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced....

[+Team Minim]

I hope no one's quavering after that joke, we all need time to breve!

 

Shares in Tupperware? Be a Geocacher!

[MCL]

Team minim, if you think you are going to stave off any more puns I can bass around this subject, then I think you will have to cringe at these two more, and hope I don't try for the treble!

 

Other punsters take note!

 

No trees were harmed during the production of this posting, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced....

[+washboy]

What a decidedly dotty duo!

 

You're both obviously sharp witted and I should declare this a tie but I suspect your humour is only accidental (though, please note, I don't mean that as a slur). So, I have no choice but to join this off-beat ensemble and up the tempo. Do you mind if I become the third triplet and take up the baton?

 

However, we must remember that this kind of humour leaves most people flat. They have no ear for a finely tuned pun. It's scores very low on their joke scale.

 

Maybe we should give it a rest, eh? I don't mean to bar further improvisation but I suggest we compose ourselves and refrain from further wordplay. I fear there might only be a short interval before the moderators slide in and accuse us of being off-key. And just in time. Signature bears are one thing - but signature tunes?!!

 

I do hope I don't have to repeat myself. Maybe we need a coda conduct about this type of thing?

 

=====

There's no such thing as a free lunchbox!

 

[This message was edited by washboy on November 24, 2002 at 07:39 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by washboy on November 24, 2002 at 07:43 PM.]

[+Team Minim]

I applaud the master of the musical pun.

how you managed to Ravel those musical terms Bach to Bach in one paragraph is a mystery, I just can't Handel it!

A true disney production not even Walton a good day could beethoven that!

 

Shares in Tupperware? Be a Geocacher!

[+jeremyp]

Oh no I can't take any more of this. It's not punny any more. In the words of Edmund Blackadder in a telegram to Charlie Chaplin: "Please, please stop"

 

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

[+Chris n Maria]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeremyp:

Oh no I can't take any more of this. It's not punny any more. In the words of Edmund Blackadder in a telegram to Charlie Chaplin: "Please, please stop"

 

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

 

Yes it's time for a General Pause so that we can all take a Brever

 

Chris

Bear rescues a speciality!

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

[Ben Pid]

LoL.....Yesssss very bitty..

 

I am no wood with these ere puns.

 

Anyway, Back to caching speak everyone!

 

I think publicity is a good thing because the more the merrier but please please not onthe front page of the sun. But I wouldnt mind us being on page 3 hehe.

 

Pid

 

Ben Piddington http://www.buckscaching.co.uk