Cache Guidelines.

June 5, 2002

Hi Peeps.

Just to keep you up to date.

A Cache Guidelines page will be hitting Geocaching.com in the very near future. Although it is basically US specific, once it is up then we can see about making a UK specific page based on the Geocaching.com page.

It clears up quite a bit of confusion but doesn't take into account our National Parks, Forestry Commision or National Trust land. This will have to be delt with by UK.

As a thread is already running on the subject of authorisation requirement from groups as mentioned above, right to roam does not imply the right to plant.

Anyways.. Keep a lookout for the Guidelines. First to find the page can place a link on this thread.

Happy cacheing

Moss de Boss... Sorta

1.2k · June 5, 2002

How appropriate you started this thread as I was about to mention a related item.

I thought about planting a cache on an English Heritage site but decided to ask their permission first. I pointed out that it would not be on the actual archealogical site itself but nearby adjacent to a footpath.

Take note of their reply....................

Dear Mr Howard

Thank you for your e-mail about placing a Geocache at Old Gorhambury.

I regret that we will not give permission for this. While the placing of the cache itself might not do any significant damage to the site it might be seen as an encouragement to others to deposit items in archaeologically sensitive areas . This is something that we cannot condone because of the likely damage that it would cause. You should be aware that it is an offence to disturb any Scheduled Ancient Monument (including Old Gorhambury) without formal permission from the Secretary of State for Culture Media and Sport.

You should also be aware that although the ruins of Old Gorhambury are in the care of English Heritage, the site is owned by the Gorhambury Estate. Indeed the footpath to the site is not a public path but is only open by permission of the Estate. You would therefore require the permission of the Estate to bury the Geocache anywhere along the line of the path.

You should also note that much of the area around Gorhambuy and St Albans is either scheduled as ancient monuments or is otherwise archaeologically sensitive and we would not wish to encourage any unnecessary disturbance.

Yours sincerely.......etc

June 5, 2002

OK.. Add English Heritage to the list!!!!

Moss de Boss... Sorta

1k · June 5, 2002

Sounds like they have a chip on there shoulder to me.

I dont see the problem in platning it. But they do have a point...the sooner this guidelines page is up the better in my opinion.

Its like getting planning permission from the council to build, except in a slightly different form of a geocache.

Pid

Watch out its a Golfcourse... (Team Dan + Pid)

June 5, 2002

It isn't a chip on there shoulder.. They are legaly bound to protect the site.. That simple..

Here is the Guidelaines.

http://www.geocaching.com/articles/requirements.asp

Moss de Boss... Sorta

June 5, 2002

I can see EH point of view, but have they fully understood what geocaching is about? The bit that says:

"You would therefore require the permission of the Estate to bury the Geocache anywhere along the line of the path"

suggests that they think caches are buried underground - somehing that would definitely be a bad thing around sites of archaelogical interest.

-----------------

el10t

mobilis in mobili

1.2k · June 5, 2002

I did give a pretty comprehensive description of Geocaching and suggested that the cache would be placed under a tree stump or under stones etc. I also suggested they looked at www.geocaching.com so there shouldn't have been any confusion (but you never know!)

June 5, 2002

Going back to the thread which I started last month, How many of you have contacted the Countryside agency and ordered infomation sheets? its costs you nothing and you can gain a lot from their fact sheets, I could also ask my local NFU. secretary as to what they have on offer at the moment with regard to what you can and cant do on not only on public footpaths but in the countryside as a whole, I know that doing anything on Common land is out of the question apart from walking across any public footpaths on it unless you have commoners rights, and then you need to have a least a cow or two sheep to practice the rights bestowed upon you , a lot of people are of the opionion that they can walk anywhere on common land , but thats not so, common land still has an owner and not always has public rights of way , rights of access to those that have commoners rights to cross and re-cross , sometimes apply only, so give this site a try for info , as I said earlier , it costs you nowt info here

June 5, 2002

A problem with asking anything of committee run concerns is that it is far easier for them to say no than to raise the question. Your question probably got no further than the secretary's desk. Anyone with little knowledge of geocaching might imagine hoards of people tramping across the area, digging holes and generally disturbing the place, and to refuse permission is the easy option. I know you cannot generalise, but my experience of committees is that if there is the slightest possibility of a problem the vote will always be "no".

1.2k · June 5, 2002

I think we are in danger of getting a bit too "heavy" here. After all what are we doing? Hiding a harmless plastic or metal box under tree stumps, rocks etc.

There's no major construction work, no pollution, no crowds of people. Even in the most densely "cached" areas we are talking about no more than 1 box in an area of several square miles.

I would suggest that rather than trying to get specific permission we continue as we have done up to now and follow one simple rule "Be Sensible".

I've found 90 caches now and I can't think of an instance where I've thought "this shouldn't be here".

June 6, 2002

quote:
I would suggest that rather than trying to get specific permission we continue as we have done up to now and follow one simple rule "Be Sensible".

I agree with that. Most (all?) land in this country belongs to someone and there is a lot of "not on my land" attitude. When you try to explain that the cache will be "just off the footpath", that is when the problem crops up. Most landowners put up with paths, "just off" is not so acceptable.

June 6, 2002

I ordered some of the countryside Agency leaflets, the were waiting for me when I arrived home yesterday,I haven't had a good look yet. I got CCP450 ,CA02,CA65,CA66. Will probably post something after I have had a good read..

June 6, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by naffita:
Most (all?) land in this country belongs to someone and there is a lot of "not on my land" attitude. When you try to explain that the cache will be "just off the footpath", that is when the problem crops up. Most landowners put up with paths, "just off" is not so acceptable.

I did a cache recently that was about 150ft off a footpath through farm land. I was uneasy at the time about it. The farmer was in the field spraying weeds and I waited about an hour for him to leave before I went after the box.

This was the cache in question:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=18577

Anybody else that has done it feel the same? Or not?

Alex.

1k · June 6, 2002

Ive looked at the cache guidelines page and I think it definatly meets the "Be sensible" theory.

If you are going to ask for permission to plant a cache in a certain place I feel that this is far more sensible than placing a cache in a sensible place that you havent asked about.....

I think a section on the cache guidelines page about Microcaches and Surprizes would be beneficial...Im assuming its not finished yet though.

Regards

Pid

Watch out its a Golfcourse... (Team Dan + Pid)

June 6, 2002

If we are required to ask permission to plant a cache on all land that will be off public footpaths even by 2 yards, as that is the distance you are only allowed to move off a public footpath unless there is an obstacle in the way and you have to move furhter of the pre defined route, then all of the caches placed in England that have not been given permission to be placed, are in breach of civil law trespass, and would have to be removed, I never obtained permission to hide any of mine apart from one, so I may have to archive mine and remove them, Sitting with a copy of country law , faxed to me today states persons who enter land without permission and who do not have a legal right to be there , Thats land without a defined right of way are committing a trespass , remember that trespass is a civil matter and notices that say Trespassers will be prosecuted have no legal standing and that trespassing is not a criminal offence , a trespasser cannot be prosecuted under criminal law, Remember that I am quoting from an official doc , not words of my own, after seeking advice from a legal team member of the Nfu , I think it may be best for me to hide caches in my own garden and ln my own fields only.

whoever brought this permission thing up may have started the end of caching as we know it. A way round this is probably for us all to chip in and hire a Barrister to give us good advice, £400 per hour is about the going rate ,

Just found where this started, Forestry commission

1k · June 6, 2002

I think highering a barrister is a tad on the scepticle side.

I don't think the law would actually do anything about it? do you?

I think a case could be had though, if it were to go to court Im sure we could all fork out a small sum to pay the court fees. Afterall.....Its all for the best corse i the world.

Pid

Watch out its a Golfcourse... (Team Dan + Pid)

June 6, 2002

Not sure all this worrying is necisary although i can understand the point. If caches are placed blatently on private land thats up to the planter and they should accept the consequences if anyone complained. Its our own choice as to which caches we go for, no one can force us into anything. Think we should all remember this is supposed to be for fun and it will only be the end for the hobby when people start getting too serious about it.

Dan Wilson (Team Dan and Pid)

June 6, 2002

http://www.counties.co.uk/counties/right_to_roam.html

There are some interesting things contained in this document.

Having the right to walk over someone's land and having the right to leave a tupperware box on that land could be seen as two different things.

What impact does this have?

Excepted activities

While most activities carried out on foot, like walking, sightseeing, bird watching, picnicking, climbing and running, will be allowed on access land, the new access rights will not entitle visitors to:

* take part in organised games or commercial activities

-

1.2k · June 7, 2002

I go back to my original point. Let's be sensible.

We are in danger of talking ourselves out of existence here. If we spend our time worrying about guidelines, legislation, byelaws, regulations and all the other parerphanalia of the legal profession we will never plant another cache.

I don't know about anyone else but I'm planning 5 more caches and I'm damned if I'm going to lose sleep about whether they're legal in the strictest sense of the law. I'm sure as hell I'm going make sure that I consider the realistic impact they are going to make on the local environment but that's all I've done on all my previous caches.

I suggest we stop trying to act as amateur lawyers and stick to what we have been doing up to now - enjoying a harmless (even pointless!) hobby which interferes with no-one unconnected with it. After all, there are not that many pastimes that don't interfere with somebody.

June 7, 2002

Word's well written Hornet, I get annoyed at people who start these threads, war mongers, or t perhaps to get a flame war started, I reply to them with a load of crap, then they might get the message and clear off , so lets all get back to what we like doing and the way we have been doing it , we havn't caused a problem for anyone, the only thing that I dont like to see is cache's hidden in stone walls , this is where Land owners like myself get vexed when people start to pull walls to bits

Have a good Caching week-end ,and I hope the weather is good to us,Nige up Norf

June 7, 2002

Firstly, I am not a lawyer, which is my way of saying you can't sue me if anything I say below turns out to be horribly wrong.

Northumbrian's comments about tresspassing are totally on the ball. Tresspassers cannot be prosecuted, they can only be sued. Even then they can only be sued for the damage that they do. So you have to ask yourself "how much damage is caused by me leaving this plastic box under this bush?" It's not your responsibility if cache seekers later trash the area looking for it - there are plenty of warnings about respecting the environment all over the web site.

The trouble is that when you describe geocaching to the average landowner they will have visions of hordes of people digging up their land all over the place. We know that this is not reality. Let's be honest, the very existence of a path implies serious environmental damage by hordes of people. Geocaching has a tiny impact on the environment compared with many other open air pursuits.

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

June 7, 2002

quote:
The trouble is that when you describe geocaching to the average landowner they will have visions of hordes of people digging up their land all over the place. We know that this is not reality. Let's be honest, the very existence of a path implies serious environmental damage by hordes of people. Geocaching has a tiny impact on the environment compared with many other open air pursuits.

Also see my earlier post. The small impact geocaching has on any area will not cause a problem, if we are sensible, if we treat the site as it should be treated, if we carry on as we have so far. But try and explain to someone whose interest is wholly for the site that perhaps one or two people a week may stray off the path and they will more often refuse than allow permission. We may find ourselves very short of places to hide caches. If we do what some may see as the "right" thing we may well end up shooting ourselves in the foot.

June 7, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by naffita:

If we do what some may see as the "right" thing we may well end up shooting ourselves in the foot.[/quote

I think that this would happen, so why not carry on as we have done , and if there are any complaints, then we could work on how to rectify the problem, Perhaps we could do as Dylan and chris did when they painted the cache boxes green , to make them more enviromently friendly, There are perhaps other things that we could do to show people that we are a caring type of person, when it comes to wandering in the country or wherever . As yet has anyone had a complaint made , if so let us all know , and maybe we can get ourselves a good set of (STICK TO rules), that we must for the sake of the hobby , and this would be something that( ALL) cachers that wish to participate in our great pastime adhere to , I did once state in a thread , that I did not want to be governed by rules, But I think this issue is a bit different, I stopped in tonight just to write this, SO my local's profits will be well down, Nige

June 7, 2002

But we have to be aware of what is happening in the US.

The whole of the National Parks Department has banned geocaching. A gut reaction from a few "suits" who haven't bothered to find out what geocaching is all about and probably haven't set foot in a park for years.

But the threat is there. The last thing we need is to get on the wrong side of the likes of the Forestry Commission or the NT who own/administer great chunks of the open land in the UK.

I would have thought that it would be a good idea to try and strike an agreement with these bodies, sooner rather than later and the best way of doing this is to set some self imposed guidelines about where caches can be placed and where they can't. I know of caches in the UK that are not only on private land but are buried and need a trowel to find them. This can't be good.

If we don't self-regulated then we could find large tracts of the countryside that we cannot place caches in. That would do no one any good.

Alex.

June 7, 2002

Has anyone given thought to 'letterboxing' which has been going on for years?

How do the letterboxers get on, have they recieved permisson from anyone ? I doubt it. The New Forest has (I am told) about 400 of them and if the Forestry Commission was to ban caching, then they would have to ban letterboxing too.

If you feel that placing any particular cache needs permission, perhaps it would be a good idea to refer to letterboxing when asking. The reason for this is that I believe the letterboxers are seen as 'serious walkers with a very healthy regard for the environment' (the equivalent of a countryside geek ?) while the lesser known Geocachers could be seen as the "Boy Racer" type using a little yellow device with go-faster-stripes on it. In visiting more than 150 caches we have never thought 'this cache should not be here'. Most/all cachers are responsible people, As an example, Novaforesta has temporarily archived New Forest Debutante because of ground nesting birds.

Because of it's sensitivity, we sought permission before we placed a cache at the 'Danebury Iron Age Hill Fort'. We spoke to the head of archaology for that area, he agreed and even gave us some paperwork. But we did introduce the subject using letterboxing and explained that NO geocacher would disturb the ground.

Tim & June (Winchester)

To cache, or not to cache. That is the question !

Oh to hell with the work.

June 8, 2002

On the note about letterboxing, as an old letterboxer, the last boxes I visited was in 1992 but I have dug out the Dartmoor listing for that year. Which has a staggering total of 14,834 listed boxes. With Dartmoor being a National Park, and letterboxing is a well-accepted sport my feelings mirror Tim and Junes comments. Just because geocaching uses GPS devices and not just maps and compasses this does not make us irresponsible, I am sure that all cachers obey the country code and act in a responsible manner when placing caches and searching for hidden treasures.

DJH

1k · June 9, 2002

I was going to start a new thread but didn't really see the need to....

Could sopmeone please explain to be what letterboxing is??? Im really confused.

Regards

Pid xxx

Watch out its a Golfcourse... (Team Dan + Pid)

June 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Pid:
Could sopmeone please explain to be what letterboxing is??? Im really confused.

Never done Letterboxing but as I understand it :

I guess it could be seen as the predecessor of Geocaching where a small container is hidden somewhere and the coordinates established using those map and compass thingys. The container usually contains a rubber stamp to stamp a logbook which you carry with you. I believe the coordinates are not generally available to all and sundry, as is the case with Geocaching and there are no "swaps".

If I am wrong I am happy to be corrected.

Question to DJH or any other Letterboxers

Can you tell us if permission has ever been required for Letterboxing. If not, then a precedant has been established and we should follow that. Also, besides Dartmoor and The New Forest, where else is Letterboxing done ?

I think we Geocachers need to express more loudly that we are not a bunch of kids racing around in Ford Escorts tearing up the countryside.

By the way, the comments in my last post (re Geeks and Boy Racers) were not intended to offend, hope they didn't.

Tim & June (Winchester)

To cache, or not to cache. That is the question !

Oh to hell with the work.

June 10, 2002

Letterboxing started on Dartmoor in the middle of the 19th century. In 1854, James Perrott of Chagford set up a small cairn at Cranmere Pool on north Dartmoor; in it he put a glass jar where visitors who had ventured to this lonely, bleak spot could leave their visiting cards.

Further letterboxes were established at Taw Marsh (1894), Ducks Pool (1938), Fur Tor (1951) and Crow Tor (1962). To reach any of these locations represented and still represents a significant achievement.

The popularity of letter boxing has since grown. The last 20 years in particular have seen a great increase in the number of letterboxes on Dartmoor and in the number of people taking part. Letterboxes are now often placed in much more accessible locations, closer to the road and to car parks.

I think we should now try and make some form of presentation to our National Park/Forestry Commision/English heritage organisations with a view to getting official recognition of this hobby.

As you can see Letterboxong started over 150 years ago, and all that has happened is that new technology has advanced it to our level. Our level being you need some co-ordinates.

Rumour has it that there are 50 letterboxes/square mile of Dartmour. It is so established that the OS show several on their 1:50000 & 1:25000 maps.

What are folks views on getting some form of official recognition from at least the Forestry Commision and the National Parks as they administer great tracts of land.

I would much prefer to get them on our side rather than have a blanket "Not in our parks" as has Happend in the US..

Moss de Boss... Sorta

1.4k · June 10, 2002

I think we should try to get offical recognition (selling ourselves as a branch of/variant on letterboxing). After all Letterboxing was here before the national parks and the forestry comission.

I've always explained what we do in terms of letterboxing and never come accross any opposition - confusion yes, opposition No.

Chris

"We're not lost - we just don't know where we are"

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

June 10, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Chris n Maria:

...I've always explained what we do in terms of letterboxing and never come accross any opposition - confusion yes, opposition No.

I think that is a fine idea, I think it needs some careful thought, maybe we have some clever mind benders (advertising guru's) in our midst that can think through this and it may be also be worthwhile discussing or even meeting with letterboxing fellows and strike up a dialogue or two... just some thoughts

Might need the sanction of Jeremy but one of the Mods can approach him about that I suppose.

Or did we ought to just drop them into conversations as a means of acreditation by association? (personally I dont think thats right)

June 10, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Moss Trooper:

I think we should now try and make some form of presentation to our National Park/Forestry Commision/English heritage organisations with a view to getting official recognition of this hobby.

I think this is a bad idea, as they'll probably just want to ban it. Why stir things up, when nobody has complained?

The recommended text included in each geocache states that the owner will be happy to remove it if it turns out to be in a bad place.

Just my £0.02p worth...

June 10, 2002

Whilst most cachers may believe there is possibly no great concern at the moment about caches being placed without permission, my worry is that with the current rate of growth of cache placements (5 fold in one year?) by next year there could be several thousand caches in the UK.

When it comes to the sudden attention any one of the major land owners that there are several hundred caches on their land without request or permission, it is quite likely that their knee jerk reaction will be to take immediate action to have them removed.

Not only would this devastate Geocaching in the UK it would be a seriously bad PR excersise for the sport and may also be an invitation for other landowners to follow in step.

Surely it is time to bite the bullet and make the approaches, sticking our heads in the sand will only work for so long.

Should it be decided to approach landowners... there is then the problem of who will contact them. There is no official body for the sport in the UK. In fact the sport is a collection of people who (in general) hide behind obscure annoynmous usernames... not exactly an ideal negotiating team!

Chris More

On a seperate, but not unrelated point.. I prefer the term 'placing a cache' to 'planting a cache', it describes the action in less dramatic terms.

June 16, 2002

Geocaching has already appeared in several articles and on the BBC, and given the increasing numbers of participants we can expect more landowners to become aware.

It's better to proactively request support when the numbers are low than retrospectively plead our case when the numbers are large. We won't be in such a good position again.

I'm writing this in Washington where I've spent ages trying to find a good location to plant a cache which isn't banned by the Parks Service. The result is that caches end up in less interesting locations (unless they're virtual) - not my idea of Geocaching.

Dave & Nicky

June 17, 2002

I believe the Letterboxers on Dartmoor have a society, and I certainly think that having a UK Geocaching Society would be a good move. As well as providing us with a single voice to talk to other organisations, it also provides a UK point of contact for people to talk to about cache removal and so on.

Whilst there are a few UK geocachers who put full contact details in their caches, most, through reasons of privacy, do not. Having a UK Geocaching society there can be an address and phone number, which would get over that problem. Peoples privacy is preserved, but at the same time you are openly giving contact details to people who might want caches moved or removed.

Regards,

Richard

June 17, 2002

Can I sugest that it might be prudent to get the powers that be in geocaching.com involved, if only to get their blessing before we start to form splinter groups

June 17, 2002

If there were a standard template for a requesting placement of a cache containing all the right wording, that might help.

Also if the Carlton TV article is suitable, and is made available as an AVI or MPG that could be downloaded (I Know it will probably be 60-100 MB as an avi, but could be chopped up downloaded and reconstituted ). It could be burnt onto a CD and sent along as a bit of a promo..

June 18, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Monz:
Can I sugest that it might be prudent to get the powers that be in geocaching.com involved, if only to get their blessing before we start to form splinter groups

Indeed, wasn't suggesting that we split off from here, I was thinking more in terms of a UK based organistation that is closely associated with Geocaching in the US. Maintaining the worldwide geocaching community is important, however for the previously discussed problems of dealing with UK landowners and organisations such as the National Trust, Forestry Commision etc I believe a formal UK based organisation would be taken more seriously than individuals making single requests, or representations from Geocaching.com or Grounded Inc in the US.

Richard

1.4k · June 20, 2002

In a bored moment I've dropped a mail to the only address I could find for letterboxing to see if they have any interest in working with us.

I'll let you know if we get a reply.

Chris

"We're not lost - we just don't know where we are"

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

June 21, 2002

Not leaving caches in/on land with 'difficult' landowners.

Whilst out walking in the North York Moors National Park last weekend, I had some difficultly finding a footpath which had been all but erased. The landowner then appeared and asked me what I was doing (the implication being 'go et of my land'). I pointed out I was attempting to follow a footpath which he had blocked with fences, and he told me the path no longer exisited as there was another one 1/2 a mile away. I was indignated at the sly tactics he used to try and make me think I was in the wrong following a footpath. The next day I phoned the park access officer and got a copy of the definitive map, and filed a complaint. They will attempt to way mark the path and investigate the blockage. It would seem the landowner is North Yorks own version of that charming Van Hogestraten chap, who delights in annoying ramblers when not in jail or being chummy with Robert Mugabe.

To cut a long story short: Putting a cache on any of this persons land would be a mistake as it would provide further evidense of walkers irresponsibility for this guy to use in his battles over access. And I dare say the caches might end up disapearing to the same place as t the waymarkings.

Although I have to say I'm sorely tempted to put a cache nearby on NT land in such a way that people would have to access it via the footpath he has attempted to close ;-) A sort of NYM Dare cache.

*******************************************************

Don't mention the mushrooms

*******************************************************

June 27, 2002

I've recently planted a cache at Hardwick hall in derbyshire (not a plug) as it is on private land i was thinking weather or not it is ok to be there . i've only just got an e-mail about the new guide lines and had already planted the cache i'm seriously considering unplanting it now .

What do you all think , should i shouldn't i ?

Has there been any instances where a land owner has complained after finding it there ?

1k · June 27, 2002

I say move it to the nearest bit of public land mate.

The private land thing is a big issue and now people now it is on private land no one will go.

Pid

Watch out its a Golfcourse... (Team Dan + Pid)

June 27, 2002

Even if a cache is placed at the side of a public footpath you are still placing it on PRIVATE LAND.....

Like Hornet says 'Just Be sensible about where it's placed'

1k · June 27, 2002

Yes being sensible is the best route to take, I have done unsensible caches in the past which I have thought to be incorrect. If you place it on private/public land make sure you plant it with respect to the other walkers etc..

then there will be no cause for concern

As they say the wise words of the Hornet will always prevail.....hang on I thought it was meant to be the Owl that was the Wise one hehe

Watch out its a Golfcourse... (Team Dan + Pid)

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