GPS-less geocache

[+The_Jumping_Pig]

I recently wanted to place a geocache in which you had to guess where a picture was taken, in the point of view of the geocache, so finders would have to try to find out where it was taken and match the photo up to a hiding spot (now-archived GCADVN5 for those who are wondering). This was rejected by my reviewer, saying,

"I don't think that your cache meets the following section of the [Geocache Hiding Guidelines]{http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx?expand=1#coordinates): "GPS usage is an essential element of hiding and seeking caches. For at least part of the search, the cache must require finders to navigate with a GPS-enabled device to specific coordinates necessary to finding the cache." This issue is easy to fix. Either (a) use the picture clue to lead finders to a container at that spot, which then has GPS coordinates for another container a reasonable distance away, or (b) use information from the picture clue spot (counting things, reading numbers from a sign) to plug into a formula that yields coordinates for a container that is located with a GPS."

 

After a bit more back-and-forth, the reviewer did not allow me to post my cache without making changes like adding another container/stage. They said

"Hello, and thanks for your note. Yes, I disagree with your reasoning. The reasoning I explained in my prior note aligns with instructional guidance given by Geocaching HQ to the Community Volunteer Reviewers in October 2008 and followed ever since for this cache design [mystery cache]. You are welcome to appeal to Geocaching HQ and ask them to overturn 15 years of precedent, but I think it would be faster to follow one of the suggested fixes that I gave to you. Both of those options are also in the guidance document that Reviewers use to determine compliance with the "adequate GPS use" requirements of the Geocache Hiding Guidelines. Put another way, what would I do with my GPS after I got out of the car? What coordinates would I plug into my GPS? If the answer is "none," then the design does not incorporate sufficient GPS usage."

 

However, I on a recent road trip, I discovered multiple caches in Erie, Pennsylvania that had the exact same type of GPS-free puzzle such as GC4NNPW and multiple others, posted in 2013. 

 

I am wondering what the difference is between their cache and mine, or if one of the reviewers did something incorrectly. Honestly, I don't mind changing my cache type too much, and I don't think its worth doing an appeal or anything, but as a relatively new cacher I'm interested about these types of caches.

 

Thank you!

[+papu66]

I'm not sure I understood correctly, but assuming it was a mystery and has a checker for coordinates I don't see what is the problem. There's plenty of mysteries where you have to locate the place to match a photo. If you have a checker for coordinates that then implies that the cache is intended to be found with gps. 

If someone is able to find the cache by just looking at photo that does not disqualify the cache nor the find. 

[+egroeg]

8 hours ago, The_Jumping_Pig said:

 

I am wondering what the difference is between their cache and mine, or if one of the reviewers did something incorrectly. Honestly, I don't mind changing my cache type too much, and I don't think its worth doing an appeal or anything, but as a relatively new cacher I'm interested about these types of caches.

 

As I read the cache description, the CO is offering TWO ways to find the cache.  He has hidden the coordinates somewhere on the cache page (thus satisfying the required use of GPS), or you can attempt to find it from the photo alone.  How you choose to find it is up to you, but you can find the cache with the use of a GPS, meeting the reviewer's requirement.

[geoawareUSA9]

10 hours ago, The_Jumping_Pig said:

I on a recent road trip, I discovered multiple caches in Erie, Pennsylvania that had the exact same type of GPS-free puzzle such as GC4NNPW and multiple others, posted in 2013. 

 

I am wondering what the difference is between their cache and mine

 

Well, first of all, guidelines can change, and reviewers can make mistakes. Which is why the guidelines state that prior cache hides should not be viewed as precedent.

 

But, like @egroeg, I see at least one difference that directly relates to the issue your reviewer identified.

 

GC4NNPW can be done with a GPSr or by figuring out where the photo was taken, as evident on the cache page:

 

Quote

There are TWO ways to find this cache:

1. Find and decipher the coordinates hidden on this page or............

2. The more fun option would be to figure out exactly where I was standing when I snapped this photo!

 

(emphasis added)

 

Your unpublished cache (which, for the record, only you and reviewers can see) lacks that option. The only thing you provided that is related to coordinates is to let people know that the cache is 1 mile from the posted coordinates. That's not sufficient use of GPS technology, so your reviewer rightfully pushed back.

 

For future submissions of this type, if you add an option where GPS can be used, or otherwise incorporate GPS usage into your puzzle as your reviewer suggested, you'll be fine.

[+peter-tvm]

One way that should suffice the GPS need is to ha checker where something from the location of the photographer is entered. 

Like a number from an electrical cabinet och a word from a sign. The checker then gives the coordinates for the final. That can be hundreds of meters away or only 5 meters.

[+MNTA]

Honestly I have enjoyed the caches of this type and unfortunately for you they were both older caches placed before the rules changed, I like the option of asking for an object that the pictures were taken from entered into a checker. Say "Bench" or "Stop sign". The coordinates can still be the same vantage point and you look underneath the bench for the container. You may get a few extra favorite points from folks that thought it was a clever trick.

[+dealfarms1]

A while back I submitted a similar "point of view' cache and it was rejected for insufficient use of GPS (I think that is fairly close to how it was worded).  As was explained to me at the time; yes, there are caches of this type, this type of cache was an older type, and no new ones of this type were being allowed due to a rule change.  The reviewer suggested that I incorporate a projection step into the setup of the cache.  Since part of my goal for the cache was to get visitors to read a historical marker about the POW camp where the cache is located, this approach worked well.  The cache is GCA4RCR.

[+Bear and Ragged]

One of the 'other guidelines' is no precedent.

In other words, just because a cache was published previously, it doesn't mean a similar cache will be published now.