Suggested attribute: Negative "Special tool required" = Special tool not needed

[+Ragnemalm]

I realized that there is no negative attribute to "special tool required". Why is that omitted?

I would definitely use it a lot. It is well known that amazing gadget caches are often damaged by "special tools", screwdrivers in particular but also wrenches and pliers. Also, objects near caches are taken apart, sometimes with destructive results. We can't forbid people to being screwdrivers and wrenches, but they cause much harm.

It would help to simply check an attribute, hinting that no tools are needed, telling people to try without. We know that not all people check out the attributes, but for those who do, it can be a valuable hint.

So, again, why is there no negative version of "special tool required"?

[+NLBokkie]

I agree. That would be a very useful attribute

[Blue Square Thing]

Wouldn't this simply apply to >99% of all caches?

 

In that case, it seems sensible to only have a positive attribute.

[+JL_HSTRE]

1 hour ago, Blue Square Thing said:

Wouldn't this simply apply to >99% of all caches?

 

So would "Tree Climbing Not Required" yet it's an option. 

[+HoochDog]

1 hour ago, Blue Square Thing said:

Wouldn't this simply apply to >99% of all caches?

 

In that case, it seems sensible to only have a positive attribute.

99% of all caches in my area aren’t “not available in winter”.  But if one wasn’t available in winter, I’d sure like to see that attribute so I don’t waste my time. 
Most caches aren’t gadget caches or complex containers, but for the ones that are, a negative attribute could be useful. 

[+cerberus1]

7 hours ago, Ragnemalm said:

I realized that there is no negative attribute to "special tool required". Why is that omitted?

I would definitely use it a lot. It is well known that amazing gadget caches are often damaged by "special tools", screwdrivers in particular but also wrenches and pliers. Also, objects near caches are taken apart, sometimes with destructive results. We can't forbid people to being screwdrivers and wrenches, but they cause much harm.

It would help to simply check an attribute, hinting that no tools are needed, telling people to try without. We know that not all people check out the attributes, but for those who do, it can be a valuable hint.

So, again, why is there no negative version of "special tool required"?

 

Why would someone need to mention that you don't need anything special to find the cache ?    

If people damaging "gadgets" is an issue, and mention in a cache description isn't making a difference, an attribute won't mean anything either.

I sure wouldn't be telling people to "try without",  as "if that doesn't work..." is the next step...   

I carry some sort of a multi tool every single day.    None of the "tools" you mention are special.

 

 

[+cerberus1]

4 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

So would "Tree Climbing Not Required" yet it's an option. 

 

We see the "tree climbing not required" as a helpful hint that you don't need to lug climbing gear.    

 - But often we find it means the cache can be accessed with your hiking stick (or a "pole").

[+cerberus1]

4 hours ago, HoochDog said:

99% of all caches in my area aren’t “not available in winter”.  But if one wasn’t available in winter, I’d sure like to see that attribute so I don’t waste my time. 
Most caches aren’t gadget caches or complex containers, but for the ones that are, a negative attribute could be useful. 

 

Good thing we're talking about the "special tool" attribute then, huh ?  

[+dprovan]

I can see a tool-not-required attribute being useful. What I can't see is why GS would go to the trouble of forbidding it. If a CO thinks it makes sense, why not let him use it?

 

[+Ragnemalm]

On 11/7/2020 at 6:13 PM, cerberus1 said:

Why would someone need to mention that you don't need anything special to find the cache ?    

If people damaging "gadgets" is an issue, and mention in a cache description isn't making a difference, an attribute won't mean anything either.

I sure wouldn't be telling people to "try without",  as "if that doesn't work..." is the next step...   

I carry some sort of a multi tool every single day.    None of the "tools" you mention are special.

 

I can mention at least two cases on our own caches where it would have helped to know beforehand that you don't need tools, and plenty more on other COs. Just the other day, I was fortunate enough to have a cacher mentioning that he had seen something suspicious and thought he would need to come back with tools - which could render the whole construction useless. Fortunately, I could stop him and tell him that no tools were needed.

 

On a mega event, before the cache publications at the end, we were explicitly instructed that we needed to bring screwdrivers. Those screwdrivers that have damaged caches for me in the past! I didn't like to hear that. And indeed, there were damaged caches out there.

 

If this attribute doesn't matter since people don't check attributes, then no attributes are worth anything.

 

With a negative attribute, you get three cases:

 

Positive: You need tools for this cache.

None: This is a simple cache so it is obvious that you don't need any so it isn't stated.

Negative: Please do NOT use tools on this cache.

 

That sounds like how attributes are supposed to work. Just like tree cimbing, either it is, or it obviously isn't, or it is important to inform you that it isn't. The attributes are added when they give some valid information.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Ragnemalm

[+cerberus1]

26 minutes ago, Ragnemalm said:

I can mention at least two cases on our own caches where it would have helped to know beforehand that you don't need tools, and plenty more on other COs. Just the other day, I was fortunate enough to have a cacher mentioning that he had seen something suspicious and thought he would need to come back with tools - which could render the whole construction useless. Fortunately, I could stop him and tell him that no tools were needed.

On a mega event, before the cache publications at the end, we were explicitly instructed that we needed to bring screwdrivers. Those screwdrivers that have damaged cahes for me in the past! I didn't like to hear that. And indeed, there were damaged caches out there.

 

If this attribute doesn't matter since people don't check attributes, then no attributes are worth anything.

With a negative attribute, you get three cases:

Positive: You need tools for this cache.

None: This is a simple cache so it is obvouls that you don't need any so it isn't stated.

Negative: Please do NOT use tools on this cache.

 

That sounds like how attribues are supposed to work. Just like tree cimbing, either it is, or it obviously isn't, or it is important to inform you that it isn't. The attributes are added when they give some valid information.

 

This is a common sense/morals issue, that won't be solved with an attribute.

"Special tools not required" would merely say that none are needed.   A non-"special" tool would be any of the others you mentioned earlier.   

"Please do not use tools" should be in bold on the cache page if someone's seeing this issue...

 

 I mentioned "Do not screw things into the tree" in bold on a cache page, and I can see marks in it.

 -  There's no mention/attribute that will keep the creep who needs that "smiley" at whatever cost from dismantling your "gadget"...  

 

In tree climbing,  you either need to bring equipment/come prepared to climb, or you don't, and not the same...    

[+barefootjeff]

5 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

Why would someone need to mention that you don't need anything special to find the cache ?    

 

It's probably a bit like the Not a Difficult Climb attribute. The vast majority of caches aren't difficult climbs but I've seen this attribute used (and used it on some of mine) when the cache is in a location where someone might be tempted to do some difficult climbing (like down the side of a cliff) but that's not needed to access the cache.

[+thebruce0]

Yeah the negative attribute are often used as instructive rather than descriptive. Not a tree climb around here typically means do not climb the tree, moreso than "you don't need to climb the tree".  I can easily see No special tool required being used to mean do not use a tool to access this cache (all needed is at the cache).

[+NYPaddleCacher]

On 11/7/2020 at 12:19 PM, cerberus1 said:

 

We see the "tree climbing not required" as a helpful hint that you don't need to lug climbing gear.    

 - But often we find it means the cache can be accessed with your hiking stick (or a "pole").

 

Or simply that the cache isn't in a tree.   I've seen some seriously damaged trees while searching for a cache that was hidden on the ground.  

Edited November 8, 2020 by NYPaddleCacher