What is the proper way to submit this complicated cache?

[+ProudExMuggle]

I've never hidden my own cache but I've recently came up with an idea that I really want to implement but I'm not sure how it works in the app. Would it be considered a multi cache? A challenge cache? Both? It involves finding 5 caches that each lead you to a second 5 caches that each contain one digit of a code you need to unlock the final cache.

Basically it's this...
Cache 1 > cache 6 > Clue to unlock cache 11
Cache 2 > cache 7> Clue to unlock cache 11
Cache 3 > cache 8 > Clue to unlock cache 11
Cache 4 > cache 9 > Clue to unlock cache 11
Cache 5 > cache 10 > Clue to unlock cache 11

And the geographic location of caches 6-9 form a shape on our local map (that I'll provide and they'll mark as they find) leading to the actual location of cache 11.

It sounds like overkill but this entire set up is being based off a popular TV show and makes sense to it's fans.

If I log the outer 5 as multis and the center as a challenge cache I can see it working but I don't know if I can use specific cache finds to complete a challenge. 

How would you submit this? 

[+on4bam]

Looks like a typical 10 trad series with bonus unless you can only find cache 6-10 by finding 1-5 first. Then it's a series of 5 trads leading to 5 mysteries that lead to a bonus (mystery).

If cache 1-5 consist of more than 1 WP then those would be multi's of course (or mysteries if the location has to be solved first).

Since you only found 55 traditionals so far I suggest finding more (different types) first before trying to place some setup you haven't found first.

 

 

[+niraD]

15 minutes ago, on4bam said:

Looks like a typical 10 trad series with bonus unless you can only find cache 6-10 by finding 1-5 first. Then it's a series of 5 trads leading to 5 mysteries that lead to a bonus (mystery).

The design of 5 traditional caches (1-5) leading to 5 mystery/puzzle bonus caches (6-10) leading to a final mystery/puzzle bonus cache (11) does not work. The Help Center article on mystery/puzzle caches specifically says that clues for one bonus cache should not be placed in another bonus cache.

As described, I think there are two options. One is a single multi-cache with 11 stages: stages 1-5 lead to stages 6-10 respectively, and stages 6-10 together lead to the final stage 11.

Another option is 5 multi-caches (waypoint 1 leads to final 6, waypoint 2 leads to final 7, and so on), with a single myster/puzzle bonus cache (11) based on finding the final locations of all 5 multi-caches.

[+on4bam]

13 minutes ago, niraD said:

The design of 5 traditional caches (1-5) leading to 5 mystery/puzzle bonus caches (6-10) leading to a final mystery/puzzle bonus cache (11) does not work. The Help Center article on mystery/puzzle caches specifically says that clues for one bonus cache should not be placed in another bonus cache.

I've done a few like that. Series of multi's/Trads leading to a few bonuses ending in a extra bonus. But then again, I like more complex setups that require some effort

 

[+thebruce0]

Yeah that's "daisy chaining", and it's no longer allowed, afaik. In essence, you can have one cache require information that's hidden in one other cache, but as soon as you add another one, then you've made it so that you have to determine where information is hidden to determine where information is hidden to determine the location of the final.  They decided that one iteration is enough

Suggestions above are good (though sound complex) to still have 10 'stages' before you can find the final bonus cache.

It seems odd to say you can have to find 10 separate caches to gather 10 pieces of information for the final, but you can't find 10 separate caches in sequence where the last one contains the information for the final.  But the argument would be that the latter should be listed as a multi-cache.

We have an extensive and difficult puzzle pyramid series in Ontario which is a daisy chained mystery series like that. Find all the level 1 caches to locate the level 2 caches. The level 2 caches lead to the couple of level 3, which in turn provide the solution to the single final cache.  Those were published mid-2011. I don't think that setup would be allowed today.

[+ProudExMuggle]

Ok, thanks for the input. I'm absorbing all this but it's a lot of do's and don'ts to take in...  so it sounds like I might need to split these up a bit. The smallest I can make this is for 5 caches to contain clues to unlock the final one. But after checking the guidelines again it sounds like I'm yet again limited. Am I reading this right in that I can't do a challenge cache with the requirement being finding the original 5? 

[+thebruce0]

Correct, you can't require finding a list of specific geocaches. Any existing challenge that do this (eg, 'BINGO' style challenges) were published pre-moratorium and wouldn't be allowed now.

[+ProudExMuggle]

Ok, so here's the thing. This might be long.. 

A coworker is a huge Supernatural fan. And ever since I introduced her to the world of geocaching she has been wanting to do our own Supernatural themed caches so I've been binge watching this stuff and finally got to a point where I understand it enough to do something creative with it. 

At one point in the show there is a gate to hell that is eventually opened and its surrounded by a set of railroads in the shape of a star. The gates are dead center of the star in a graveyard.

Since demons were surrounding the area we thought it would be cool to do one cache at each point on the star and relate each one to one of the more iconic demons in the show. Each cache would also include one digit to the combination lock on the center cache (gates to hell) but in order to get the correct order for the combination you'd need to "connect the dots" to form the star in the correct order on a map that I provide in each cache. Also, the center cache will actually be in a graveyard... Sort of. Actually at the edge of the woods next to it so not offend anyone. I wanted to give it a bit of authenticity. 

So how do I pull this off and follow all these rules at the same time? How can 5 individual caches, spaced miles apart, be a part of a single mystery cache and follow every single one of these guidelines? My goal is to give this as much authenticity as possible. 

[Keystone]

Five caches leading to a single bonus cache is fine.  The design in your original post breaks the daisy chaining principle.

[+Touchstone]

27 minutes ago, ProudExMuggle said:

Ok, so here's the thing. This might be long.. 

A coworker is a huge Supernatural fan. And ever since I introduced her to the world of geocaching she has been wanting to do our own Supernatural themed caches so I've been binge watching this stuff and finally got to a point where I understand it enough to do something creative with it. 

At one point in the show there is a gate to hell that is eventually opened and its surrounded by a set of railroads in the shape of a star. The gates are dead center of the star in a graveyard.

Since demons were surrounding the area we thought it would be cool to do one cache at each point on the star and relate each one to one of the more iconic demons in the show. Each cache would also include one digit to the combination lock on the center cache (gates to hell) but in order to get the correct order for the combination you'd need to "connect the dots" to form the star in the correct order on a map that I provide in each cache. Also, the center cache will actually be in a graveyard... Sort of. Actually at the edge of the woods next to it so not offend anyone. I wanted to give it a bit of authenticity. 

So how do I pull this off and follow all these rules at the same time? How can 5 individual caches, spaced miles apart, be a part of a single mystery cache and follow every single one of these guidelines? My goal is to give this as much authenticity as possible. 

I think your concept will not work very well as a Bonus Cache, for the reasons Keystone mentioned above (i.e. no nesting bonus clues within other bonus caches).  My suggestion would be to arrange things as separate Puzzle Listings, with clues or solutions of one, used in subsequent Puzzles.  Doing it that way will not make the failure of one or more placements dependent on the others, since the dependent Listing pages would still be available after Archival, so that people can still derive the solutions.

[+ProudExMuggle]

1 hour ago, Keystone said:

Five caches leading to a single bonus cache is fine.  The design in your original post breaks the daisy chaining principle.

OK, awesome. I'll stick to the 5 + bonus. Unfortunately, now I've got another question that I haven't found answers to online. (I think I've read every available guideline pertaining to this by now.)

I know I can't reference other caches when doing a challenge cache, but what about the 5 traditional caches? Since they will all hold a clue to unlocking the bonus am I able to, for example, list the GC of caches 2-5 on the page of cache 1? 

Can I do the same on the Bonus cache page? I've seen this done on active caches but they've been active for a few years. I'm assuming the lack of specific information on this means I'm able to list them but I want to be sure... 

[+ProudExMuggle]

1 hour ago, Touchstone said:

I think your concept will not work very well as a Bonus Cache, for the reasons Keystone mentioned above (i.e. no nesting bonus clues within other bonus caches).  My suggestion would be to arrange things as separate Puzzle Listings, with clues or solutions of one, used in subsequent Puzzles.  Doing it that way will not make the failure of one or more placements dependent on the others, since the dependent Listing pages would still be available after Archival, so that people can still derive the solutions.

That's a good point. I've decided to stick with 5 and a bonus. In the case that one becomes archived I'll list the clue in the description of the remaining caches of the series. 

[Keystone]

Nothing in your design relates at all to the concept of a "challenge cache."

It's certainly fine, on a series of five traditional "clue" caches, to reference the other caches in the series, including the bonus cache (which is classified as a Mystery Cache).

You cannot require that a geocacher must log a find on each of the traditional caches in order to log an online find for the bonus cache. If I am walking through a park and stumble upon the bonus cache at random, I can log an online find after signing the logbook.

[+ProudExMuggle]

13 minutes ago, Keystone said:

Nothing in your design relates at all to the concept of a "challenge cache."

It's certainly fine, on a series of five traditional "clue" caches, to reference the other caches in the series, including the bonus cache (which is classified as a Mystery Cache).

You cannot require that a geocacher must log a find on each of the traditional caches in order to log an online find for the bonus cache. If I am walking through a park and stumble upon the bonus cache at random, I can log an online find after signing the logbook.

Well, I wouldn't be preventing them from logging the find in any way exept for the plan I have to place a lock on the bonus cache. Each of the 5 traditionals give you a single digit to the code. Is that breaking any rules? 

[Keystone]

50 minutes ago, ProudExMuggle said:

Each of the 5 traditionals give you a single digit to the code. Is that breaking any rules? 

This is a common design.  Keep in mind, with a combination lock cache, a finder can skip one of the caches and it would take them a maximum of ten tries at the bonus cache to enter the combination with the missing number.

[+ProudExMuggle]

48 minutes ago, Keystone said:

This is a common design.  Keep in mind, with a combination lock cache, a finder can skip one of the caches and it would take them a maximum of ten tries at the bonus cache to enter the combination with the missing number.

Eh, if they cheat that's on their conscious, not mine. Haha. Thank you for your help. I think I finally know what I'm doing now. 

[+JohnCNA]

16 hours ago, ProudExMuggle said:

Eh, if they cheat that's on their conscious, not mine. Haha. Thank you for your help. I think I finally know what I'm doing now. 

Also, be advised that the first 4 digits of your bonus cache will almost always be the same as the posted coordinates. So in reality, searchers will usually have to solve only the last 3 digits N&W of the bonus coordinates. You could overcome this by using a formula to account for more than 6 traditional caches. 

[+Gill & Tony]

How about  11 physical containers.   5 multi-caches each with posted coordinates at one of the points of the star and a physical container containing the coordinates for the second container - the final.  Each final has a log book and part of the coordinates of the bonus cache, a mystery, which has the 11th container and a log book.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

SInce the goal of the OP is to created a cache based on a theme (Supernatural) another option would be to make it a mystery unknown.  The cache listing could contain 5 puzzles based on the theme, each revealing a set of lat/long coordinates where one had to go to find a number (either a physical object placed there or an already existing number obvious at GZ).  Combine the five numbers to derive a set of coordinates for the final.