A friendly nudge regarding Travel Bug ettiquette

[Moun10Bike]

I hope that this doesn't come off as a rant, as we've had more than enough of that in this forum lately.

 

I've noticed a trend among local geocachers lately of taking multiple Travel Bugs out of caches without putting any back in in exchange. This seems to me to be, well...tacky.

 

I have no issue with someone taking a single Travel Bug without having one to exchange, and I have no issue with someone taking 10 as long as they have several to put back in. But to take 2 and leave none? That's just greedy. Leave one for those who come after you.

 

[+Nurse Dave]

Never seen a cache with more than 1, but yes, this sounds rude.

 

---Real men cache in shorts.

[+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite]

I've never considered that I should replace a TB with a TB. I just pick them up and move them along. But I also just take one out of a cache at a time figuring that someone else might want to take one.

 

The TB thing has lost it's appeal with me. I have had a bug just disappear and others stagnate for months. I ended up turning my last TB into a Pizza bash thing which is fun. Whomever draws it at our pizza event gets to pick the spot for the next pizza deal.

 

One of my caches had 4 TB's in it and someone removed all 4 without ever logging them. That bites. When you read the cache it appears that all 4 are still in there.

 

OK moun10bike, I promise to never take all 10 TB's from a cache.

 

I hear voices.....and they don't like you!

[+The Minnesota Cajuns]

I definitely agree with this. I don't see the need to trade 1 TB for 1 TB since the real goal is to get them moving along, but if there are 4 in there and you take them all, you aren't giving anyone else a chance to experience passing along a TB and are pretty much being selfish. Sure, you have the right to do what you want, but just try to be considerate.

 

I for one have not ever found a TB in a cache, so I definitely cannot say I am burned out on them and in fact it would be nice to find one one of these days.

[John E Cache]

Some people like to handle travel bugs. Sometimes the only reason they go to a cache is to pick up a bug. In consideration for these people, I try to log a bug I have picked very quickly. If I am a long way from home I try to leave another bug so they can at least pick up a bug even if it wasn't the one they were after.

[skydiver]

I guess it depends a lot on the cache location and it's traffic, but I have to say I disagree with you pretty much entirely.

If I'm visiting a cache that has 10 bugs, and I can help all ten with their goals, then I'll do so. If I can only help 8, then I'll leave the other 2. Travel Bugs are a completely different game, and are not trade items. They have a mission and should be take by anyone willing ot help with that mission.

I certianly don't understand what would be greedy about taking multiple travel bugs. Does the taker get something special that I don't know about? A gift certificate to Applebees or something?

And how does a che get 10 bugs in it in the first place? Likely because lots of people have been dropping off bugs and not taking any because they can't help any of them with their goals (which is exactly what they should be doing).

I guess, when I think of travel bug ettiquette, I think more along the lines of the bugs OWNER. Don't keep the bugs for more than a couple weeks, don't put the bug in a cache that only get a couple visitors a year, etc. etc. As an owner of multiple bugs, I want responsible geocachers to take my bugs to move them along ... and I really don't care if they took 50 other travel bugs from that same cache, and I doubt the 49 other bugs owners would care either. Greedy to me is someone who thinks bugs should sit dormant in a cache waiting so that everyone gets the chance to find their fair share of bugs. Hogwash! If the bugs keep moving (even in herds) that's totally fine by me.

 

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"We never seek things for themselves -- what we seek is the very seeking of things."

Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)

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[Moun10Bike]

Skydiver, I would accept your reasoning if Travel Bugs were indeed all about the bug owner and not the bug finder. But that's not the case. There is a reward for the bug finder/mover. Finding and moving bugs is a fun accessory to cache hunting. They are an incentive to get people to a cache, which is why the Pocket Queries and GPX viewers have options to sort on caches containing Bugs. To say otherwise is rather disingenuous.

 

Also, to make the argument that the only reason that multiple Travel Bugs will be in a cache is "likely because lots of people have been dropping off bugs and not taking any" is a red herring. Certainly, if Bugs are stacking up over time in a cache and stalling in their travels, then there is good reason to get them moving. But in my experience, this rarely happens. Bugs don't stack up over time; they do quite the opposite. In fact, the situations that I was addressing in my initial post are those where the cache owner plants a new cache, usually in a harder-than-average location, and puts in multiple bugs in it in an effort to attract multiple finders. What I've seen happening is the first finder taking all of the Bugs.

 

You're right, Travel Bugs are different from standard trade items. But I still don't believe that an "all mine" attitude toward them is the right one.

 

[skydiver]

Just re-read Moun10bike's post, and realized he was taking more issue with not exchanging bugs as opposed to taking multiple. Sorry, I'm sick right now, and my brain isn't working as fast as it should.

 

However, I still completely disagree. Travel Bugs aren't trade items. People should take as many bugs as they can help (and only the bugs they can help), and should try to put bugs they've found in caches that get the bugs closer to their goals. Period. Any implied 'rule' that says you're supposed to trade travel bugs, under any circumstances, goes against the whole point of travel bugs.

 

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"We never seek things for themselves -- what we seek is the very seeking of things."

Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)

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[skydiver]

And as I was writinging my last post, Moun10bike slipped in onder the radar...

 

quote:

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Originally posted by Moun10Bike:

Skydiver, I would accept your reasoning if Travel Bugs were indeed all about the bug owner and not the bug finder. But that's not the case. There _is_ a reward for the bug finder/mover. Finding and moving bugs is a fun accessory to cache hunting.

---

 

Yes, they are a fun accessory to cache hunting, but just like you don't have a RIGHT to find the cache (maybe it's too hard for you), you also don't have a RIGHT to find a bug there, (you snooze, you loose).

 

quote:

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Originally posted by Moun10Bike:

Also, to make the argument that the only reason that multiple Travel Bugs will be in a cache is "likely because lots of people have been dropping off bugs and not taking any" is a red herring. Certainly, if Bugs are stacking up over time in a cache and stalling in their travels, then there is good reason to get them moving.

---

 

That was just an example, based on my previous misunderstanding of what you were taking issue with.

 

quote:

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Originally posted by Moun10Bike:

In fact, the situations that I was addressing in my initial post are those where the cache owner plants a new cache, usually in a harder-than-average location, and puts in multiple bugs in it in an effort to attract multiple finders. What I've seen happening is the first finder taking all of the Bugs.

---

 

If the owner of the new cache also owns all of the bugs that they put in it ... and specifies on the cache page to please only take one bug. Then yes, I totally agree with you. You're absolutely right in that scenario.

BUT, if someone used one of MY bugs as bait for a very difficult cache they placed, knowing that my bug may sit there for quite a while waiting for someone to take it, that would piss me off I can't say how much. Bugs should only be placed in caches that help them with their goals, not handicap them in favor of helping a new cache get a few early finders.

 

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"We never seek things for themselves -- what we seek is the very seeking of things."

Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)

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[Moun10Bike]

I think that we are actually more in agreement on this issue than would first appear. We've just been assuming different scenarios and arguing about various exceptions and extremes. I am virtually 100% on board with the situations you give in your last post.

 

My intent with this thread was simply to get people to think about what they are doing with Bugs. If your actions are not ones that you would want done with your own Bugs, or not what you would want to have done by someone logging the cache before you, please reconsider those actions.

 

[+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite]

One of my travel bugs bogged down for months. What was going on is a cacher was collecting tons of bugs so he could move them to hawaii when he got there. It drove me nuts. I would have loved for someone to have come along and grabbed every bug in the cache he installed them in just so mine would get moving again.

 

Anyway I'm proabably as off topic as an average Oregone log. I'm heading up to Edmonds in WA in March. We'll do some diving and hopefully grab a handful of caches while we are visiting. Won't have time to do any long hikes I'm sure but hopefully we'll enjoy what we get. Last time we just did some park caches and they were all great. You guys have some very nice city parks in that area.

 

I hear voices.....and they don't like you!

[+Renegade Knight]

I'm guilty of that remark...Which reminds me, I'll get them back in circulatoin this weekend.

 

Wherever you go there you are.

[Moun10Bike]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lazyboy & Mitey Mite:

 

I'm heading up to Edmonds in WA in March. We'll do some diving and hopefully grab a handful of caches while we are visiting.

---

 

Hey, if you're coming up to do some scuba diving, there's a brand new scuba cache in Tacoma that might be right up your alley!

 

[+RvrRnr]

As a relative beginner to caching I have really enjoyed the different posts containing conversations on traditions in caching. This one was very helpful. I have been hesitant to pick up Travel Bugs because I was not sure of exactly how to handle them. My first find was December 1st, a GeoCoin, placed in the “Coin a Phrase” by Moun10Bike. I returned the coin to circulation within a couple days in the "Plante's Ferry" cache. I kind of goofed up the logging of that one but it worked out in the end. So I see that it goes both ways, some say if you don’t have a TB, don’t take a bug you find in a cache, and others say take a TB if you can help it on its way. My thought has been take a TB only if you can move it toward the goal stated by the cacher who originated the Bug. Does this apply to GoeCoins? There are no goals for a coin are there?

[Moun10Bike]

quote:

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Originally posted by RvrRnr:

 

So I see that it goes both ways, some say if you don’t have a TB, don’t take a bug you find in a cache, and others say take a TB if you can help it on its way.

---

 

To clarify my own position, I think it is fine to take a bug if you don't have one to exchange; my issue is just taking more than your fair share of multiple bugs from a single cache (the definition of "fair share" being open to debate as we've seen here). I also believe that if you do take a Bug, you should be willing to help it toward its goal.

 

quote:

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Originally posted by RvrRnr:

 

My thought has been take a TB only if you can move it toward the goal stated by the cacher who originated the Bug. Does this apply to GoeCoins? There are no goals for a coin are there?

---

 

It depends on the coins. Some, like my own Moun10Bike Geocoins, have no specific goals until they reach 2000 miles of travel; then I ask that they keep moving (less than 2000 miles and I don't mind if people keep them). Other coins, like the Canadian Geocoins, have no specific stated goals, although I believe that the unstated goal of simply moving is then implied. When in doubt, email the person who put the coin in circulation.

 

[skydiver]

I agree with Moun10bike. Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

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"We never seek things for themselves -- what we seek is the very seeking of things."

Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)

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[+The Minnesota Cajuns]

I would definitely agree with taking all 10 travel bugs if the cache does not receive high traffic. It is definitely the goal of travel bugs to get them off to their destinations and if a cache rarely receives visitors, it owuld be in the best interest of the TB owner to have someone take them all. I also would have no problem if say all 10 TBs were supposed to go to Alaska and the person who found them was going to Alaska next week.

 

My problem would be if person came and took all 10 from a regularly visited cache that would have no problems getting the visitors necessary to move all 10. Again, taking all 10 would be greedy in this case. I saw skydiver ponder if there was some great reward for moving TBs. Well, think about why you're doing it. You are doing it because you enjoy it. Why take all of the the enjoyment when you can allow others to do the same thing? Skydiver did make some good points in regards to giving examples of why it would be okay to take all 10.

[+EraSeek]

I agree with Moun10Bike's original statement. Even if the bugs are in a tough to get to cache, or headed for the same destination, if you get to the cache others can too, and it is not proper to grab more than one at a time. I agree that trading for travel bugs should NOT be required, as how the object is to keep them moving. But to mass grab and mass move...well, why not just FedEx them all to begin with!

 

I have a BUG cache WHAT A WONDERFUL WORLD and have placed a statement on the page that moving bugs is the object, so there is no need to trade. However, keeping SOME bugs in the cache has been a problem, and so as a result of this disscussion, I have added a note to not take more than one at a time.

 

Which brings up another issue. Gathering and holding other's bugs is as bad as grabbing 10 at once. You are robbing the bug owners and those who would have their chance to log and move a bug. If you start a bug hotel cache, and make it so you must trade bug for bug, then please stock it with your own bugs. As a matter of fact, even that senerio will end up imprisoning other's bugs, so I would encourage dropping the trade requirement and living with the fact the cache will get depleted every now and then.

 

My vote: grab one bug at a time, give others a chance at the fun too, no need to trade, keep them moving one by one, cache by cache.

 

[skydiver]

quote:

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Originally posted by EraSeek:

Even if the bugs are in a tough to get to cache, or headed for the same destination, if you get to the cache others can too, and it is not proper to grab more than one at a time.

---

 

IF all the bugs are owned by the cache placer, then yes. Or IF, for some strange reason, all the bugs have some strange goal that indicates they would WANT to hang out for ages in that difficult cache, then yes.

But otherwise, no. Just because I can get to a difficult cache, doesn't mean many more people will follow soon.

I hit a cache this summer with a friend where we were the first finders after the cache had been out (with a bug) for over a year. Thankfuly, the bug was owned by the cache owner, so I didn't worry about the bug being stuck there for over a year. So far, there have been no new finders since we were there, and won't likely be any until late spring. If the cache owner had put a bunch of other peoples bugs in the cache to be held hostage, you can bet I would have taken EVERY ONE of them, and wouldn't have felt the least but guilty about it.

 

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"We never seek things for themselves -- what we seek is the very seeking of things."

Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)

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[+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite]

quote:

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Hey, if you're coming up to do some scuba diving, there's a brand new scuba cache in Tacoma that might be right up your alley!

---

 

Yes we'll try for that one. I have never dove at this spot but we'll give her a shot. Thanks.

 

Al

 

I hear voices.....and they don't like you!

[+EraSeek]

quote:

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Originally posted by skydiver:

 

If the cache owner had put a bunch of other peoples bugs in the cache to be held hostage, you can bet I would have taken EVERY ONE of them, and wouldn't have felt the least but guilty about it.

 

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This is where we agree...''a bunch of other peoples bugs ''. That would be obvious baiting at others expense, and wrong!

 

Anytime you take a handfull of other people's bugs and place them in your cache...well, I see a problem there.

 

However, I see no reason to delineate one cache from another in terms of which is too difficult and which is not, to place a bug in it. Travel bugs are made to pass though caches and there is a wide variety of difficulties out there.

 

If you wish, you can put on the bug's page ''please place me in easy caches only''.

I have one that wishes to go to the difficult to get to caches Bear Bell Bug.

 

[skydiver]

quote:

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Originally posted by EraSeek:

However, I see no reason to delineate one cache from another in terms of which is too difficult and which is not, to place a bug in it. Travel bugs are made to pass though caches and there is a wide variety of difficulties out there.

 

If you wish, you can put on the bug's page ''please place me in easy caches only''.

I have one that wishes to go to the difficult to get to caches

---

 

But this is where we disagree.

 

Yes, travel bugs are made to pass through caches. And placing one in a cache that isn't likely to get another visitor for several months handicaps that bugs ability to pass through other caches.

The fact that a bug would rather travel to 5 different easy caches (gradually getting closer to it's goal in the process), instead of be stuck in 1 hard cache, should be understood without saying. The exception is bugs that want to go to hard caches, and THOSE are the bugs that should have the disclaimer stating what types of caches they want to go to (as yours does).

I also have a bug that wants to go to more difficult caches. But as for the rest of my bugs, just because I don't state in the bugs page that I'd prefer them to only go to easy caches, doesn't mean I'm ok with any of them being stuck on top of a mountain for 6 months.

 

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"We never seek things for themselves -- what we seek is the very seeking of things."

Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)

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[+Seth!]

I think that the discussion here (as it has evolved) is about at very unlikely scenario. "Ten Travel Bugs in a difficult, seldom visited cache" is not really worth the discussion.

 

What is, I believe, more common is the "three Travel Bugs in an oft used or new geocache." In this case, I think taking all of the bugs is not very polite. I, for one, really enjoy finding Travel Bugs and if the previous finder cleaned out more than one and didn't leave any, I'm bummed.

 

But if it that unlikely 5/5 volcano island cache and there are 10 TB's in it, then I guess I might take them all.

 

MY pet peeve is TB's that get taken but not logged out of the geocache for days and days (or simply never). If a TB shows up as being in a cache, and it's not there when I go to find it, I'm very annoyed. Unless it was just grabbed that day, then it's just disappointing.

 

Seth!

 

[+Logscaler and Red]

To me this coin has heads on both sides.

 

I have taken and placed bugs into caches to try to attract cachers to go to them.

 

I have also had to go get some of them back and move them along, bummer.

 

I have collected several bugs to install into a new cache I put out, But it was close to town and the bugs moved real fast.

 

I have also went to caches and grabbed bugs out that have sit for a spell.

 

I have collected bugs from several caches on one trip to work or back and dropped them off the next weekend as far from the last place as I could get. I even moved one back to its starting point as it had stalled out.

 

I have taken bugs and not traded.

 

I have taken bugs and traded.

 

I also get ticked when someone takes a bug out and does not log its movement.

 

NOW:

 

What happens to Skydivers scene about moving a bug along to a destination when it has none?

 

What happens if you get to a cache and it has an unlisted bug in it and you have no idea as to where it is heading? Leave it or take it?

 

I would not take all the bugs from any multi bug cache, whether I can help them out or not. Someone else might be after the cache for a bug to trade out.

 

And as Lazyboy: for stagnate bugs, put out an appeal for someone to make a special trip to go get it and move it, Like the person who put it where it is, assuming someone has not taken it and not logged it yet. I have taken major loops - sometimes several hundred miles out of my way - in my travel just to move a bug or check a cache for the owner.

 

How long is too long for a bug to sit?

 

How long is too long to hang onto a bug?

 

End Rant.

 

TTFRN, logscaler.

[+Zzzoey & illDRIVEuNav]

Along these same lines... we don't pick up more than one bug from a cache, but then I don't think we have ever encountered that. Often there are missing bugs that show up on the cache page...

 

We enjoy trying to help travel bugs along, and take goofy pictures of them for the bug owners enjoyment. I know the point of the tag and the logging in to the travel bug page is to find out it's goal, but we have found that the bugs we have "hatched" that we included their goal WITH them... physically.. as in an attached tag or inside a ziplock baggie with the bug.. those bugs seem to move faster and in a much more, dare I say.. direct route toward their goal. I understand that this is entirely up to the bug owner, but I appreciate when I pick up a bug... knowing where it is going. Often we don't have fresh cache pages that show the travel bugs we will come across. Without knowing the goals, we have been guilty of grabbing bugs and returning them to where they came from, or moving them in the opposite direction of where they are going. I actually followed a thread earlier on this where Seth! had a special tag, and I have tried to do something like that with all my newest travel bugs.

 

The more information the cacher is armed with, the better.. in my honest opinion.