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Challenge Caches Returning?

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Fallacious being the points you raised about why you don't like them that are more than mere preference. Things like:

 

"they get people to place caches to make the challenge easier to complete" how is that a problem? The problem arises only when people place caches that are problems themselves. So to use that as a reason to dislike the challenge concept goes beyond just "I don't like the ones that do this" (which is fine, we all have challenge styles we don't like, so more productive would be to discuss how improvements could be made to dissuade such styles).

You associate with that, "they get me to do things I wouldn't normally do / find caches I wouldn't normally find", which I don't see at all how that could be a reason not to like challenge caches.

 

Other complaints you (and others in various threads) have expressed often reach beyond "I don't like x-style-challenge cache" which is perfectly fine, into "I don't like challenge caches because...and am hoping they don't return".

Personally, I'm fine with people hoping they don't return, I'm just not fine when the reasoning isn't actually a universal problem. For me, those are the points I like to discuss.

 

If people can agree that there are aspects to challenge caches that are love-it/hate-it, personal preference depending on who you talk to, and that it's therefore not a reason to keep nor remove the concept from geocaching, then I think we'd all get along better in these threads :P

 

Based on the quotes above and your comments on them, I think we are talking at cross purposes.

 

The reasons I referred to are typical of those I've seen touted as reasons why challenge caches are needed and that's what is fallacious - we don't need challenge caches to do any of that stuff.

 

We could just agree that EVERYTHING in life comes down to personal preference and people might get along better as a result of that, but in the given context that does sound, to me at least, a lot like apathy and I don't think apathy achieves much, if anything at all.

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The reasons I referred to are typical of those I've seen touted as reasons why challenge caches are needed and that's what is fallacious - we don't need challenge caches to do any of that stuff.

Ok then I misunderstood what you were attempting to imply by using those quotes. So then, it sounds like for those two points, for arguments' sake, our only difference is seeing the glass half empty or half full.

* They may encourage people to place new caches: A] that can happen without challenge caches, or B] more caches is a good thing

* They get people doing things/going places they'd otherwise not: A] that can happen without challenge caches, or B] more reason to do new things is a good thing

 

I don't disagree with your view that all that can happen without challenge caches. I suppose I and others see the value added side as a reason to like challenge caches. No, they're not perfect, and the 'half full' side can of course be abused in various ways, but that's ultimately why there was a moratorium, to (hopefully) improve the system to weed out the issues clinging to those positive aspects of the challenge cache concept.

 

So personally, I love seeing more discussion about improvement, rather than criticism of the concept (implied by repeated sentiments like "I wouldn't be upset if they didn't return")

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The reasons I referred to are typical of those I've seen touted as reasons why challenge caches are needed and that's what is fallacious - we don't need challenge caches to do any of that stuff.

Ok then I misunderstood what you were attempting to imply by using those quotes. So then, it sounds like for those two points, for arguments' sake, our only difference is seeing the glass half empty or half full.

* They may encourage people to place new caches: A] that can happen without challenge caches, or B] more caches is a good thing

* They get people doing things/going places they'd otherwise not: A] that can happen without challenge caches, or B] more reason to do new things is a good thing

 

I don't disagree with your view that all that can happen without challenge caches. I suppose I and others see the value added side as a reason to like challenge caches. No, they're not perfect, and the 'half full' side can of course be abused in various ways, but that's ultimately why there was a moratorium, to (hopefully) improve the system to weed out the issues clinging to those positive aspects of the challenge cache concept.

 

So personally, I love seeing more discussion about improvement, rather than criticism of the concept (implied by repeated sentiments like "I wouldn't be upset if they didn't return")

 

I'm glad we agree on some things :)

 

And I'm all for discussion on improvement - of those things which add genuine value and whether that is, or could ever be, challenge caches, remains to be seen - but I'm won't be expectantly holding my breath.

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One of my favorite challenge was to find 75 caches with the word "eye" in the title. The point of the challenge wasn't for individual seekers to track down such caches: the challenge was for the community to put out enough "eye" caches so people could satisfy that challenge from local caches. By what right do you say there's something wrong with that?
Meh... To me, that kind of "challenge to the community to hide caches" sounds pretty much the same as breeder caches or "curse of the FTF" caches or challenge caches that require owning caches or the like.

 

One of the things I respect about Groundspeak is that they resist incentives for people to hide caches for arbitrary reasons like this, for any reasons other than the desire to own and maintain a cache for the long term.

 

+1

 

I see that aspect of challenge caches as a negative thing for the game. Loftier goals, then to provide a qualification for another cache, would be a more interesting contribution to the community as a whole.

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One of my favorite challenge was to find 75 caches with the word "eye" in the title. The point of the challenge wasn't for individual seekers to track down such caches: the challenge was for the community to put out enough "eye" caches so people could satisfy that challenge from local caches. By what right do you say there's something wrong with that?

Meh... To me, that kind of "challenge to the community to hide caches" sounds pretty much the same as breeder caches or "curse of the FTF" caches or challenge caches that require owning caches or the like.

I suppose it depends on the community. What actually happened was that people put out caches as good as any other, but just added the eye theme to the description and container. As far as I could tell, no one put out a cache they wouldn't have put out anyway.

 

Sure, those that were carrying around a sack of pill bottles anyway, and were running out of title ideas for their cache might be happy to throw an "eye" in to the title. But the guy taking a couple of weeks to build a cache and find a good location, I doubt he's going be less discerning about the title he gives his cache.

He may also not like that his cache is treated like just another point towards achieving the more important cache - the 'Highly Favorited Challenge' bison tube on a parking lot fence.

Edited by L0ne.R

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It's tough. I've done a few text-based challenge caches, and yeah it's easy then to look through 'candidates' merely for the text in their name rather than other merits to the hide. When I get around to finding them though, good ones (imo) still stand out from the rest. I suppose the issue is the context surrounding the time when you find a cache.

If I were out just finding caches for the fun of finding caches, I might appreciate CacheWithEye more than if my mind were focused on finding AllCachesWithEye. But in my experience, that only applies to the average caches; if a really great cache stands out from the rest, even though I'm only out looking for 'eye' caches, I'm still going to notice it and potentially award a favpoint.

 

In a way, it's sort of like... the signal still stands out from the noise, even with text-search challenges, but the threshold for appreciation drops a bit if only because your mind is set on something specific that doesn't directly relate to individual cache experience.

Of course that threshold may vary from cacher to cacher :P I know plenty of group-cachers who have no threshold even for high quality caches and merely log them because someone found it in the group, completely missing out on the actual hgih quality experience. But that's a whole other subject in another thread - even though the effect is the same in this context (challenge caches ~ group caching, no giving a chance to appreciate the CO's intended experience)

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The reasons I referred to are typical of those I've seen touted as reasons why challenge caches are needed and that's what is fallacious - we don't need challenge caches to do any of that stuff.

You might not need them to do those things, but I do. Naturally, my need isn't, by itself, an argument for challenge caches, but nor is an argument against them the fact that your superior intellect allows you to accomplish those things without a challenge cache as a reward.

 

And I'm all for discussion on improvement - of those things which add genuine value and whether that is, or could ever be, challenge caches, remains to be seen - but I'm won't be expectantly holding my breath.

Well, that's great. Challenge caches definitely add genuine value, so they're in. What? You don't think they have genuine value? Why do you think your opinion about them decides the matter?

 

Sure, those that were carrying around a sack of pill bottles anyway, and were running out of title ideas for their cache might be happy to throw an "eye" in to the title. But the guy taking a couple of weeks to build a cache and find a good location, I doubt he's going be less discerning about the title he gives his cache.

You'd be wrong. While it's true some people simply adopted the theme for caches they would have planted anyway -- there's no lack of ideas in my area, so I'm sure none of those people needed the theme because they had run out of their own ideas -- some of the caches were designed and constructed specifically for the challenge and received favorite points for all the right reasons.

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Looking forward to new challenge caches coming back in some form. I know some of my friends have talked about a few ideas for new ones. We will have to see what is looking on the horizon. Personally I think some challenges were great and some were lame, but I could say the same thing about many traditionals around here. Would rather see them around than not even if I have to suffer ignoring some I do not care for personally.

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One of my favorite challenge was to find 75 caches with the word "eye" in the title. The point of the challenge wasn't for individual seekers to track down such caches: the challenge was for the community to put out enough "eye" caches so people could satisfy that challenge from local caches. By what right do you say there's something wrong with that?

Meh... To me, that kind of "challenge to the community to hide caches" sounds pretty much the same as breeder caches or "curse of the FTF" caches or challenge caches that require owning caches or the like.

I suppose it depends on the community. What actually happened was that people put out caches as good as any other, but just added the eye theme to the description and container. As far as I could tell, no one put out a cache they wouldn't have put out anyway.

 

Did they really put out caches as good as any other? I strongly suspect that the number of "eye" caches placed after the challenge was created is significantly higher than the number of "eye" caches that existed before the challenge. That would leave me to believe that the primary motivation for those caches was to help people complete a challenge rather than to place a cache in an interesting location.

 

 

 

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The reasons I referred to are typical of those I've seen touted as reasons why challenge caches are needed and that's what is fallacious - we don't need challenge caches to do any of that stuff.

You might not need them to do those things, but I do. Naturally, my need isn't, by itself, an argument for challenge caches, but nor is an argument against them the fact that your superior intellect allows you to accomplish those things without a challenge cache as a reward.

 

Why do you need to do those things?

 

And I'm all for discussion on improvement - of those things which add genuine value and whether that is, or could ever be, challenge caches, remains to be seen - but I'm won't be expectantly holding my breath.

Well, that's great. Challenge caches definitely add genuine value, so they're in. What? You don't think they have genuine value? Why do you think your opinion about them decides the matter?

 

What genuine value do you think they add?

 

Nobody told me that my opinion did or didn't decide the matter - so I didn't think that. Or maybe I did think that - you seem to know better what I'm thinking than I do! :o

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Did they really put out caches as good as any other?

Yes, they really did. In fact, I'd say the eye caches were generally a little better than normal.

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Why do you need to do those things?

I need those things because I'm a slacker and won't be motivated to meet a challenge if there's not a cache to find at the end of it.

 

What genuine value do you think they add?

They are a variation to add spice to the game and motivate me to put more thought and effort into my geocaching.

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Why do you need to do those things?

I need those things because I'm a slacker and won't be motivated to meet a challenge if there's not a cache to find at the end of it.

 

There are plenty of caches to find at the end of any challenge you set for yourself - pick any one.

 

What genuine value do you think they add?

They are a variation to add spice to the game and motivate me to put more thought and effort into my geocaching.

 

Seems like an overly romanticised viewpoint to me. All the caches you will find in order to qualify for the challenge already exist (excepting of course those instances where caches are thrown out to make the challenge easier to achieve or thrown out by CO's who set the challenge specifically in the hope that more local caches will be thrown out as they've exhausted the local area for finds) - but one more cache at the end adds sufficient spice to render those other caches not worth your time or effort if that one at the end didn't exist?

 

Presumably if challenge caches don't come back you'll lack motivation and invest less thought and effort into your geocaching. How sad. You have my sympathy.

 

Personally I'd just carry on making the best of the myriad interesting experiences which are already out there ready to be discovered regardless of whether challenge caches exist or not.

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Seems like an overly romanticised viewpoint to me. All the caches you will find in order to qualify for the challenge already exist (excepting of course those instances where caches are thrown out to make the challenge easier to achieve or thrown out by CO's who set the challenge specifically in the hope that more local caches will be thrown out as they've exhausted the local area for finds) - but one more cache at the end adds sufficient spice to render those other caches not worth your time or effort if that one at the end didn't exist?

 

Presumably if challenge caches don't come back you'll lack motivation and invest less thought and effort into your geocaching. How sad. You have my sympathy.

 

 

Yes they already exist, but there's no way I would have (without knowing about the Jasmer challenge) had a great geocaching road trip with friends to specifically get Marooned in GA to complete my Jasmer. The challenge is what made me actually take the time to figure out how to get to the location to be able to go after the hide. If I weren't working on the Jasmer challenge, there's absolutely NO way I would have made the trip down for the cache on my own. Yes, I could have opted to do it on my own because it was already out there, but I wouldn't have been motivated to spend the money and the time necessary to actually get to Marooned. I would have seen it as a pipe dream; cool to do but out of my way and too much of a time suck and money investment when there are other similar caches (paddle to an island to find a cache) less than 20 miles from home.

 

That does NOT mean that I view all challenges (and their associated caches) as worth my time and effort. There are some silly ones out there that hold no interest unless I'm fortunate enough to already have completed them through the luck of my finds.

 

I've only done one personal challenge (without a challenge cache to motivate me, to my knowledge) and that was to get my D/T average to a 2/2. It changed the way I cache. Challenges changed the way I cache too. We have a Challenge of the Century series around the city and they MADE me try to find other types. Without the EC challenge, I would still be in single digits. I avoided them like the plague. Then, after about 50 more, I found that I enjoyed them more than the traditional caches I was going after. Now they're some of the first ones I load up when vacationing/traveling to a new area. Could I have done them on my own without the challenge? Absolutely, but here's the point, at least for me. I wasn't doing them on my own.

 

If challenges don't come back, I'll be a bit upset because they've introduced me to so many things that I was avoiding in my first year of caching. I won't be looking for specific caches for a challenge when I get ready to go on vacation, but I'll still filter out my caches based on the style of caching that I prefer, and that is based on, in large part, challenges. For me, they've been great. I'm the type of cacher I am right now because of challenge caches (and one personal challenge). Once again, that does NOT mean that I think ALL challenges are great. As with ANY type of cache, there are good ones and ones that are just ..... there to take up space.

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So personally, I love seeing more discussion about improvement, rather than criticism of the concept (implied by repeated sentiments like "I wouldn't be upset if they didn't return")
Yeah, that would be nice. Unfortunately, suggestions for changes that might reduce the workload for lackeys and for volunteer reviewers are often met with "No, any change will ruin them".

 

Which, as far as I can tell, is not an option.

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I really like challenge caches and would like to see them brought back with few limits. After you have been caching for a while, they add some interest to the game. The more offbeat, the better in my opinion, because the standard accepted challenges (like Fizzy or Jasmer) become old once they are completed. New and creative ones continue to make the game more interesting.

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Presumably if challenge caches don't come back you'll lack motivation and invest less thought and effort into your geocaching. How sad. You have my sympathy.

What are your favourite cache style? Ok let's take those away. Same effect. Literally. You're arguing that just because you can do other things means that you shouldn't have to enjoy what does exist, and it's somehow pitiable if when something you enjoy is taken away that you feel there is less to enjoy.

That's not an argument, you're pitting your opinion of something that exists against another opinion.

 

So personally, I love seeing more discussion about improvement, rather than criticism of the concept (implied by repeated sentiments like "I wouldn't be upset if they didn't return")
Yeah, that would be nice. Unfortunately, suggestions for changes that might reduce the workload for lackeys and for volunteer reviewers are often met with "No, any change will ruin them".

 

Which, as far as I can tell, is not an option.

Yep and that's the flipside I mentioned. Just as I don't like comments implying that because someone doesn't enjoy them as much that they shouldn't return, just because someone does enjoy them the way they are doesn't mean they don't need improvement. If they come back as they were, I wouldn't be upset, but I can see a few areas conceptually where improvements can be made. And any attempt to shut down discussion for improvement (either by their removal entirely or returning with no change) is argumentative and fruitless.

 

Also, if someone responds to a suggestion with "No, any change will ruin them" I'd ask on what reasoning do they make that claim? What will be ruined (for them) and why? And how can that be addressed? It usually means what they don't want changed is of value to them, so how could we take that into consideration?

 

Did they really put out caches as good as any other? I strongly suspect that the number of "eye" caches placed after the challenge was created is significantly higher than the number of "eye" caches that existed before the challenge. That would leave me to believe that the primary motivation for those caches was to help people complete a challenge rather than to place a cache in an interesting location.

I suppose whether they're "as good as any other" is entirely subjective. But I think there's just as much chance that someone may put out a random throwdown cache with "eye" in the title for the challenge as there is that someone already planning a quality cache might simply adjust the title to include "eye" in it. Who's to say? By dprovan's word, apparently in this case moreso the latter than the former. So, yay!

Edited by thebruce0

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Presumably if challenge caches don't come back you'll lack motivation and invest less thought and effort into your geocaching. How sad. You have my sympathy.

What are your favourite cache style? Ok let's take those away. Same effect. Literally. You're arguing that just because you can do other things means that you shouldn't have to enjoy what does exist, and it's somehow pitiable if when something you enjoy is taken away that you feel there is less to enjoy.

That's not an argument, you're pitting your opinion of something that exists against another opinion.

 

I usually find your communication very clear - thanks in part to its verbosity - although there is a point at which I struggle to absorb the sheer volume of information.

 

This time though I've read what you've written four times and I still can't grasp the meaning of it, although my gut feel is that it does seem like a jolly determined attempt to completely devalue my viewpoint.

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... you condescendingly "felt sad" and offered sympathy because dprovan felt that if challenge caches didn't return, you assumed he would lack motivation to go and do things that challenge cache motivated them to do, which they could still do without challenge caches.

 

I simply likened that to removing your favourite cache styles.

We enjoy what we enjoy and rightly so. Take that away, and we have less enjoyment, or else find other ways of enjoyment. So why is it worthy of 'sympathy' (in a way that implies your position is somehow more reasonable) if we feel a sense of loss to how we find our enjoyment?

 

You don't like challenge caches the way we do, that's fine. I'd have sympathy for you if a favourite aspect of geocaching for you were taken away, but I wouldn't advocate for its removal unless there was good reason, let alone condescend by "feeling sad and having sympathy". So, apart from the fact that it wouldn't bother you if they didn't come back, do you have good reason for them not to come back? Based on previous exchanges, I don't think you were trying to make that point.

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... you condescendingly "felt sad" and offered sympathy because dprovan felt that if challenge caches didn't return, you assumed he would lack motivation to go and do things that challenge cache motivated them to do, which they could still do without challenge caches.

 

I simply likened that to removing your favourite cache styles.

We enjoy what we enjoy and rightly so. Take that away, and we have less enjoyment, or else find other ways of enjoyment. So why is it worthy of 'sympathy' (in a way that implies your position is somehow more reasonable) if we feel a sense of loss to how we find our enjoyment?

 

You don't like challenge caches the way we do, that's fine. I'd have sympathy for you if a favourite aspect of geocaching for you were taken away, but I wouldn't advocate for its removal unless there was good reason, let alone condescend by "feeling sad and having sympathy". So, apart from the fact that it wouldn't bother you if they didn't come back, do you have good reason for them not to come back? Based on previous exchanges, I don't think you were trying to make that point.

 

Thanks - that clears things up a little - although I'm not sure who the collective we is - so I'll just respond to the points you make as your own :)

 

You're right - I made an assumption that because dprovan expressed that his motivation to meet a challenge was based solely on there being a dedicated challenge cache to sign at the end that he would therefore lack the motivation to challenge himself - caching-wise - if the dedicated challenge cache were not there. I find that sad. I felt that sympathy was a more appropriate response than try to suggest that he was wrong in some way / counter his reasoning. He knows best how he would feel and respond in said circumstances so who am I to argue?

 

So yes, I'd say my response was valid and appropriate - although whether it constitutes an opinion or an argument I'll leave you to decide. I'm not big on scemantics.

 

I don't think that in this thread I've advocated for the removal of challenge caches - although I have this odd feeling that a few people would like me to.

 

The very first post I made in this thread is basically what I think. Don't know what else to say :)

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Seems like an overly romanticised viewpoint to me.

Does being overly romanticized make my viewpoint invalid?

 

Unfortunately, suggestions for changes that might reduce the workload for lackeys and for volunteer reviewers are often met with "No, any change will ruin them".

The only suggestion I've heard is the one I've suggested time and time again: just don't allow appeals. That wouldn't ruin anything, at least not compared to the current practice of not allowing challenge caches at all, which is just another way of forbidding appeals, but with the unnecessary addition of automatically rejecting all challenge caches instead of just the ones the lackey or reviewer see as unreasonable.

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The only suggestion I've heard is the one I've suggested time and time again: just don't allow appeals. That wouldn't ruin anything, at least not compared to the current practice of not allowing challenge caches at all, which is just another way of forbidding appeals, but with the unnecessary addition of automatically rejecting all challenge caches instead of just the ones the lackey or reviewer see as unreasonable.

 

Oh there've been numerous other suggestions discussed in other threads ;)

As for appeals, I think the downside to denying them is that there's more community drama and complaints towards reviewers, which would probably come back to bite GS in the arse for ignoring it all :P

 

ETA: SwineFlew - go'way :P:omnomnom::wub:

Edited by thebruce0

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One of my favorite challenge was to find 75 caches with the word "eye" in the title. The point of the challenge wasn't for individual seekers to track down such caches: the challenge was for the community to put out enough "eye" caches so people could satisfy that challenge from local caches. By what right do you say there's something wrong with that?
Meh... To me, that kind of "challenge to the community to hide caches" sounds pretty much the same as breeder caches or "curse of the FTF" caches or challenge caches that require owning caches or the like.One of the things I respect about Groundspeak is that they resist incentives for people to hide caches for arbitrary reasons like this, for any reasons other than the desire to own and maintain a cache for the long term.

Nirad answered that question better than I could. Lame is lame. As for what right I have to express my opinion on geocaching matters, oh, let's see, ... the First Amendment, Forum guidelines, etc. I think the moratorium on challenges by Groundspeak speaks for itself. If you don't like it, then you should probably be directing it at people like whoever put out that 75-eye challenge and members like him for causing it.

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No, the moratorium on challenge caches doesn't speak for itself.

Ok well, actually it does, it just doesn't speak what you think it's speaking. It's speaking of conceptual issues that need tightening up, NOT they deserve to be removed entirely, otherwise they would have been removed entirely.

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Team Microdot - you sound like a self-motivated individual, great. Not everyone else is. And they don't need your symathy because they are different from you - I feel sad that you can't see that some others need outside motivation.

 

Myself, I'm half way inbetween. Some things I can think of to motivate me in my caching (more on this later), other times I need some 'help' coming up with ideas - which is why I like Challenge Caches. In general, I see them as others sharing their ideas for caching motivation (even those I have no interest in working on and sometimes think are silly). And, yes, having a cache at the end is a big motivator - without it (a 'solid' goal) there isn't the 'time limit' sense of I want to sign that log as soon as I can (which isn't real, I just work better with a deadline).

 

I've always like the older caches, finding those placed within the first year of caching or so. I was working (very slowly) toward getting those in Washington AC (Above California, as oppsed to DC). But when the Delorme Challenge (first Challenge Cache I knew about) made it's appearance in WA, I thought 'Hey, maybe the Oldest-in-the-State would make a good Challenge'. It took me a few years to finally get around to writing it up, but the Washington History Challenge motivated others to come up similar challenges (state and county).

Then I head about the Jasmer Challenge, it didn't cause me to find cache I normally don't find, but helped me focus on particular caches that I might have missed in glut that's out there. Seeing a Double Jasmer helped us plan our route for a big road trip we took to GeoWoodstock last year. And later, when we passed somewhat close by, I grabbed the third Aug 2000 - meaning I could qualify for a Triple Jasmer Challenge (which as far as I know, doesn't exist - but if they come back I might see if I could place one, but I'm not sure it would fly as there are only about 45 people who could qualify right now - those that have found the three Aug 2000 caches left in the US).

That challenge (triple jasmer) was my own, but came from other Challenge Caches. Another persomal challenge is getting the oldest cache in each state (I think I need 9 more) - no Challenge Cache exists that I know about, but they could exist without me having found them yet. This challenge came from the earlier Challenges. I'm not sure I'd have set that goal without the whole Challenge Cache idea.

So I think Challenge Cache do have intrinsic value, well, as much as any cache has intrinsic value.

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Oh there've been numerous other suggestions discussed in other threads ;)

I'll take your word for it, but all I remember are suggestions to make it harder to submit challenges that various people for various reasons thought were bad. I don't remember anything else that specifically addressed the review load, although, admittedly, that might be because I only consider a suggestion that actually reduces the load as a suggestion to reduce the load.

 

As for appeals, I think the downside to denying them is that there's more community drama and complaints towards reviewers, which would probably come back to bite GS in the arse for ignoring it all :P

No problem: allow appeals, then allow a lackey (one set up to take the fall) as the one that always rejects appeals. Or, heck, if you want to get fancy, assign that lackey to actually consider the appeals, but give them power to consider the appeal fairly, and either accept or reject it without further debate. OK, I suppose you could say that automatically creates "more drama", but I'm not sure reduction of drama on dubious challenge caches is a reasonable argument to defend the current practice of outright rejection of perfectly reasonable challenge caches.

 

No, the moratorium on challenge caches doesn't speak for itself.

Ok well, actually it does, it just doesn't speak what you think it's speaking. It's speaking of conceptual issues that need tightening up, NOT they deserve to be removed entirely, otherwise they would have been removed entirely.

Sorry, but I see no difference: the current situation says "no challenge caches" as clear as can be, and, honestly, suggests nothing to me that might imply something a slight as "tightening up".

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the current situation says "no challenge caches" as clear as can be,

 

"No new challenge caches"

 

In your area there are about 200 challenge caches within 50km. Quite a lot to keep many cachers challenged and motivated.

 

I get the feeling that a lot of the anxiety comes from the people who want to hide more challenge caches, and not so much from those finding challenge caches. I'm not seeing complaints about there not being enough challenge caches to find.

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Seems like an overly romanticised viewpoint to me.

Does being overly romanticized make my viewpoint invalid?

 

Not necessarily - but it does devalue it considerably.

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I get the feeling that a lot of the anxiety comes from the people who want to hide more challenge caches, and not so much from those finding challenge caches. I'm not seeing complaints about there not being enough challenge caches to find.

In a way I'm glad there haven't been new ones this year - I'm slowly working on knocking off the 700+ in Ontario alone, whether I ever get to them or not :P I'm loving it. But I'd love to see the concept return in some [improved] fashion.

Edited by thebruce0

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Team Microdot - you sound like a self-motivated individual, great. Not everyone else is. And they don't need your symathy because they are different from you - I feel sad that you can't see that some others need outside motivation.

 

I feel sad that you can't see that people's motivation comes from inside - not from outside.

 

...I grabbed the third Aug 2000 - meaning I could qualify for a Triple Jasmer Challenge (which as far as I know, doesn't exist...

...That challenge (triple jasmer) was my own... Another persomal challenge is getting the oldest cache in each state (I think I need 9 more) - no Challenge Cache exists that I know about

 

So you managed to set personal challenges and motivate yourself to complete them - in the absence of a dedicated challenge cache - which proves the point I've been making all along :)

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Seems like an overly romanticised viewpoint to me. All the caches you will find in order to qualify for the challenge already exist (excepting of course those instances where caches are thrown out to make the challenge easier to achieve or thrown out by CO's who set the challenge specifically in the hope that more local caches will be thrown out as they've exhausted the local area for finds) - but one more cache at the end adds sufficient spice to render those other caches not worth your time or effort if that one at the end didn't exist?

 

Presumably if challenge caches don't come back you'll lack motivation and invest less thought and effort into your geocaching. How sad. You have my sympathy.

 

 

Yes they already exist, but there's no way I would have (without knowing about the Jasmer challenge) had a great geocaching road trip with friends...

 

So you wouldn't have had a road trip? Or you wouldn't have had a road trip with friends? Or you would have had a road trip with/without friends but it wouldn't have been great - if you hadn't known about the Jasmer challenge?

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Team Microdot - you sound like a self-motivated individual, great. Not everyone else is. And they don't need your symathy because they are different from you - I feel sad that you can't see that some others need outside motivation.

 

I am amused by the turn the discussion has taken. I've seen the same argument technique that Team Microdot is using tried again and again in these forums. It probably has a name, but I just call it the "moralization" argument.

 

It goes like this: "I don't need any extra incentive to do X, therefore you shouldn't either. If you do, then you are weak and morally inferior to me."

 

Of course, it's never stated as plainly as I just did; the people who use this particular argument attempt to camouflage it, as it's pretty offensive.

 

And, of course, it is completely fallacious. We do geocaching because it is fun, not as an exercise in moral discipline. For many human activities, the incentives built into the activity are a large part of the fun.

 

Consider marathons. People could certainly run 26.2 miles by themselves. Why do they need the extra motivation of a race? With prizes, even?

 

Or how about spelling bees? Certainly people could test their own spelling prowess at home. Why do they need a formal contest? Isn't their own satisfaction with their spelling ability enough?

 

Let's use an example that is less about competition. Puzzle rooms are a good example. You go in with a group of people and try to escape before time runs out. Why does there have to be "time running out?" Why can't the group just enjoy the puzzle room at leisure?

 

Or how about mountain climbing? Why do people attempt Everest? It's not the nicest climb; there are many other peaks where the climb would be much more fun.

 

There are quite literally thousands of studies that show that humans enjoy and respond to incentives. The argument that we shouldn't "need" them is entirely irrelevant. It's human to enjoy them.

 

For challenge caches in particular, I enjoy the incentive of being able to log a cache that I could not otherwise have done without meeting the challenge. I pick my challenges according to what I like; the existence of challenges that I don't want to complete does not offend me at all.

 

The argument that I shouldn't need or enjoy incentives, however, offends me greatly.

Edited by fizzymagic

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The argument that I shouldn't need or enjoy incentives, however, offends me greatly.

 

Then I'm glad that's not the argument I've put forward :)

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The argument that I shouldn't need or enjoy incentives, however, offends me greatly.

 

Then I'm glad that's not the argument I've put forward :)

 

...

 

I feel sad that you can't see that people's motivation comes from inside - not from outside.

...

So you managed to set personal challenges and motivate yourself to complete them - in the absence of a dedicated challenge cache - which proves the point I've been making all along.

...

Presumably if challenge caches don't come back you'll lack motivation and invest less thought and effort into your geocaching. How sad. You have my sympathy.

You may not be putting forward an "argument" for removing challenge caches, but your implication by your opinions and presumptions of those who enjoy challenge caches imply that your position is superior. It's condescending and offensive.

Edited by thebruce0

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The argument that I shouldn't need or enjoy incentives, however, offends me greatly.

Then I'm glad that's not the argument I've put forward :)

 

Pretty weak try at backpedaling. Unfortunately, the argument I described is exactly the argument you have put forth. Unless you erase your previous posts, I am afraid, it is quite obvious.

 

Let's look at a representative post. You wrote to The Jester:

So you managed to set personal challenges and motivate yourself to complete them - in the absence of a dedicated challenge cache - which proves the point I've been making all along

 

In other words, you are claiming that people should not need the incentive of challenge caches.

 

Or are you now going to claim that you meant something entirely different?

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The argument that I shouldn't need or enjoy incentives, however, offends me greatly.

 

Then I'm glad that's not the argument I've put forward :)

 

...

 

I feel sad that you can't see that people's motivation comes from inside - not from outside.

...

So you managed to set personal challenges and motivate yourself to complete them - in the absence of a dedicated challenge cache - which proves the point I've been making all along.

...

Presumably if challenge caches don't come back you'll lack motivation and invest less thought and effort into your geocaching. How sad. You have my sympathy.

You may not be putting forward an "argument" for removing challenge caches, but your implication by your opinions and presumptions of those who enjoy challenge caches imply that your position is superior. It's condescending and offensive.

 

I'm not implying that my position is superior and nor is it my intention to be condescending or offensive - if you belive that to be true please use the available report button to report my posts to the moderators of this thread and I'll happily live with whatever action they deem necessary.

 

If you can avoid reading into my posts something which isn't there you will see that the one point I've made consistently is that people do not NEED challenge caches to achieve any / all of the objectives they claim to need them for. It's a fact - not a comment on their character in any way, shape or form and I'd appreciate it if you stopped trying to make out that it is.

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The argument that I shouldn't need or enjoy incentives, however, offends me greatly.

Then I'm glad that's not the argument I've put forward :)

 

Pretty weak try at backpedaling. Unfortunately, the argument I described is exactly the argument you have put forth. Unless you erase your previous posts, I am afraid, it is quite obvious.

 

Let's look at a representative post. You wrote to The Jester:

So you managed to set personal challenges and motivate yourself to complete them - in the absence of a dedicated challenge cache - which proves the point I've been making all along

 

In other words, you are claiming that people should not need the incentive of challenge caches.

 

Or are you now going to claim that you meant something entirely different?

 

Absolutely correct - I meant something entirely different.

 

There's really no need for the insults.

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If you can avoid reading into my posts something which isn't there you will see that the one point I've made consistently is that people do not NEED challenge caches to achieve any / all of the objectives they claim to need them for. It's a fact - not a comment on their character in any way, shape or form and I'd appreciate it if you stopped trying to make out that it is.

And no one has disagreed, of course all of that can be achieved without challenge caches. That's not the point, but you keep using it as some kind of rebuttle against people who enjoy challenge caches.

And if that's not your intent, then that's certainly how you're coming across.

Edited by thebruce0

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If you can avoid reading into my posts something which isn't there you will see that the one point I've made consistently is that people do not NEED challenge caches to achieve any / all of the objectives they claim to need them for. It's a fact - not a comment on their character in any way, shape or form and I'd appreciate it if you stopped trying to make out that it is.

And no one has disagreed, of course all of that can be achieved without challenge caches. That's not the point, but you keep using it as some kind of rebuttle against people who enjoy challenge caches.

And if that's not your intent, then that's certainly how you're coming across.

 

Some kind of rebuttal?

 

I am merely responding to posts which are directed at me by directly quoting what I've written.

 

Again - if you think I shouldn't be allowed to do that, if you think I'm out of line - please feel free to go ahead and report my posts.

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*headdesk*

Nope. Because I don't see anyone desiring to do something nearly that extreme.

So how about now we get back on topic.

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*headdesk*

Nope. Because I don't see anyone desiring to do something nearly that extreme.

So how about now we get back on topic.

 

I share your frustration.

 

Happy to get back on topic - please continue :)

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Seems like an overly romanticised viewpoint to me.

Does being overly romanticized make my viewpoint invalid?

Not necessarily - but it does devalue it considerably.

Could you provide a reference to support that claim?

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Puzzle rooms are a good example. You go in with a group of people and try to escape before time runs out. Why does there have to be "time running out?" Why can't the group just enjoy the puzzle room at leisure?
Usually because someone else has the puzzle room booked in advance for the next hour. And if they don't, then it's because you booked the last hour of the day, and the poor guy running it wants to go home as soon as your hour is up (or as soon as you escape, whichever comes first).

 

But back to the discussion of how to reduce the workload that challenge caches impose on lackeys and on volunteer reviewers, while preserving that essential je ne sais quoi that fans enjoy about challenge caches...

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Seems like an overly romanticised viewpoint to me.

Does being overly romanticized make my viewpoint invalid?

Not necessarily - but it does devalue it considerably.

Could you provide a reference to support that claim?

 

Used car sales springs to mind.

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But back to the discussion of how to reduce the workload that challenge caches impose on lackeys and on volunteer reviewers, while preserving that essential je ne sais quoi that fans enjoy about challenge caches...

 

Which is an impossible discussion to have, because The Frog hasn't told us why challenge caches impose a greater workload.

 

I suppose we could just wait for three weeks and see what happens when the one-year time limit on the moratorium expires. But where's the fun in that?

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Seems like an overly romanticised viewpoint to me.

Does being overly romanticized make my viewpoint invalid?

Not necessarily - but it does devalue it considerably.

Could you provide a reference to support that claim?

Used car sales springs to mind.

I don't see the relation. Are you equating overly romanticized with disingenuous? The negative aspects of used car sales involves getting someone else to do something the car salesman want them to do, and I can't imagine how you can see that in the advantages I listed for challenge caches.

 

Which is an impossible discussion to have, because The Frog hasn't told us why challenge caches impose a greater workload.

First of all, I don't think that's really true. The claim is that the workload comes from unending arguments and appeals over rejected proposals. I might be wrong, but I think someone on the inside once told us that arguments over whether the challenge requirements were met -- i.e., arguments between CO and seeker -- did not contribute significantly to the reviewer and lackey workload.

 

But regardless, my proposed solution amounts to "don't do the work", so it solves the problem regardless of what causes the load.

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Seems like an overly romanticised viewpoint to me.

Does being overly romanticized make my viewpoint invalid?

Not necessarily - but it does devalue it considerably.

Could you provide a reference to support that claim?

Used car sales springs to mind.

I don't see the relation. Are you equating overly romanticized with disingenuous? The negative aspects of used car sales involves getting someone else to do something the car salesman want them to do, and I can't imagine how you can see that in the advantages I listed for challenge caches.

 

I suppose overly romanticised could equate to disingenuous but I think I was referring more to the romance of viewing something through rose tinted spectacles. You asked for an example where a view was considerably devalued by being over romanticised and I gave you one. Negative aspects of used car sales include portraying the car as of greater value than its true worth. Other similar phrases might include exaggerating for effect and over egging the pudding.

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I suppose overly romanticised could equate to disingenuous but I think I was referring more to the romance of viewing something through rose tinted spectacles. You asked for an example where a view was considerably devalued by being over romanticised and I gave you one. Negative aspects of used car sales include portraying the car as of greater value than its true worth. Other similar phrases might include exaggerating for effect and over egging the pudding.

I didn't ask for examples. I asked for justification of the claim that my specific over romanticized viewpoint has less value than your viewpoint. Your example of used car sales and your alternative phrases all imply that I'm trying to convince you or someone else of my viewpoint, but I'm just pointing out that advantages I see. It does not matter to me or to my argument whether you agree they are advantages since all I have to show is that someone -- namely me -- sees value in challenge caches. Unless your position is that you are the only one qualified to judge whether something is valuable?

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