Finding and logging

[+FshngGC]

I generally do not sign the logs in microcaches that are incredibly small, due to the fact that it tends to be difficult if not impossible for me. Does the fact that I did not sign the log disqualify me from calling them a "find"?

There a caches that have been located but have been impossible to open either due to the fact that they have been damaged or due to the fact that I am unable to figure out a puzzle that would open them. At what point is it legitimate to enter the cache as a 'find"?

Edited March 29, 2012 by FshngGC

[+SwineFlew]

The Guideline said the log book needs to be signed or the CO could or will delete your logs.

[+StarBrand]

Caches that are a puzzle box really need to be figured out and opened or you haven't really made the find IMHO.

 

I've never seen a container that was damaged in such a way that it could not be opened to find the log.

 

However, if you have a physical issue (disability) of some kind that restricts you from opening/handling a tiny container - I think that is one of the very rare exceptions to needing the physical log signed.

Edited March 29, 2012 by StarBrand

[+tozainamboku]

The Guideline said the log book needs to be signed or the CO could or will delete your logs.

Not what the guidelines say.The guidelines do ask the cache owner to delete online log that appear to be bogus, without actually defining what that is; and elsewhere indicate that the cache owner can't create additional requirements for an online found log beyond signing the log (with the exception of challenge caches). That seems to imply that cache owners are allowed to delete logs if the logbook isn't signed.

 

Of course the issue about when an owner can or should delete logs is often debated. The reality is that most cache owners either don't care or will except reasonable alternatives to signing the log.

[+FshngGC]

Caches that are a puzzle box really need to be figured out and opened or you haven't really made the find IMHO.

 

I've never seen a container that was damaged in such a way that it could not be opened to find the log.

 

However, if you have a physical issue (disability) of some kind that restricts you from opening/handling a tiny container - I think that is one of the very rare exceptions to needing the physical log signed.

 

I have no trouble removing the logs from microcaches but I have a difficult time replacing it (and it seems that others have had the same problem). However the true problem is actually doing the logging in the smallest ones which are at best about 1/8" wide. A quarter inch or better is no problem.

 

The cache that brought the second question out was an ammunition can that I had to apply a great deal of force to open. I did open it and signed the log but it made me wonder where I would have stood if it had been completely impossible.

[+jellis]

On ones like nanos, initials are fine.

[+OZ2CPU]

>Does the fact that I did not sign the log disqualify me from calling them a "find"?

 

YES

take a picture, for own use if later any debate about it,

or give the CO a good cause for why he should accept your find and online log as found,

when you did not sign the log.

ALL caches got a log, it must be signed, and it must be maintained,

so it is not your problem you use a bit of space in the log, infact that is a part of the whole idea,

cache owners LOVE to maintain their caches and give them new clean logs,

else they should not take the job as CO.

 

--

be carefull about your log, or it could very easy be seen in the

did not find it = found it

section of this forum :-)

Edited March 29, 2012 by OZ2CPU

[+barddzen]

The Guideline said the log book needs to be signed or the CO could or will delete your logs.

 

The guide doesn't say anything of the sort, there is no "needs" to sign anything. If I get to GZ, find the cache and the log is soaked and unsignable, I'm logging the find.

 

There should be some tag for CO to mark cache if the CO "requires" a log entry or not to validate a find, otherwise, it's honor system.

[+The A-Team]

The Guideline said the log book needs to be signed or the CO could or will delete your logs.

 

The guide doesn't say anything of the sort, there is no "needs" to sign anything. If I get to GZ, find the cache and the log is soaked and unsignable, I'm logging the find.

 

The guideline says:

Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed.

The guidelines also say:

Owner is responsible for geocache page upkeep. As the owner of your geocache listing, your responsibility includes quality control of all posts to the cache page. Delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off-topic or otherwise inappropriate.

 

Therefore, if your signature isn't in the log, there is the chance your log could be deleted, and Groundspeak may not necessarily back you up if your log does get deleted. Groundspeak only guarantees your online log if the physical log was signed.

 

There should be some tag for CO to mark cache if the CO "requires" a log entry or not to validate a find, otherwise, it's honor system.

I think it's generally understood that all cache owners (except the handful that allow armchair logs) require that you sign the log. That's one of the core pillars of geocaching. The part that varies is whether the cache owner ever compares the physical and online logs. If they don't, then they're working with the honour system. Those that do are very much in the minority.

 

To be on the safe side, you should always have some proof that you've found a cache. The best proof is to sign the log. If that isn't possible for whatever reason, you should find some other way to prove to the cache owner that you did indeed find it. If it's an evil, well-cammoed, or cleverly hidden cache, you might be able to give them a detailed description of how it's hidden that only a finder would be able to provide. If there isn't anything too notable about it, take a picture of the cache and/or its log with some identifiable features in view. If you ever log a find, but weren't able to sign the log, make sure you say so in your online log and state that you can provide further proof if requested. If you do any of this, Groundspeak will very likely reinstate your log if the cache owner deletes it.

[+barddzen]

The Guideline said the log book needs to be signed or the CO could or will delete your logs.

 

The guide doesn't say anything of the sort, there is no "needs" to sign anything. If I get to GZ, find the cache and the log is soaked and unsignable, I'm logging the find.

 

The guideline says:

Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed.

The guidelines also say:

Owner is responsible for geocache page upkeep. As the owner of your geocache listing, your responsibility includes quality control of all posts to the cache page. Delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off-topic or otherwise inappropriate.

 

Therefore, if your signature isn't in the log, there is the chance your log could be deleted, and Groundspeak may not necessarily back you up if your log does get deleted. Groundspeak only guarantees your online log if the physical log was signed.

 

There should be some tag for CO to mark cache if the CO "requires" a log entry or not to validate a find, otherwise, it's honor system.

I think it's generally understood that all cache owners (except the handful that allow armchair logs) require that you sign the log. That's one of the core pillars of geocaching. The part that varies is whether the cache owner ever compares the physical and online logs. If they don't, then they're working with the honour system. Those that do are very much in the minority.

 

To be on the safe side, you should always have some proof that you've found a cache. The best proof is to sign the log. If that isn't possible for whatever reason, you should find some other way to prove to the cache owner that you did indeed find it. If it's an evil, well-cammoed, or cleverly hidden cache, you might be able to give them a detailed description of how it's hidden that only a finder would be able to provide. If there isn't anything too notable about it, take a picture of the cache and/or its log with some identifiable features in view. If you ever log a find, but weren't able to sign the log, make sure you say so in your online log and state that you can provide further proof if requested. If you do any of this, Groundspeak will very likely reinstate your log if the cache owner deletes it.

 

Thanks for the clarification, I guess I'm just hacked off because the CO didn't contact me at all before deleting my find, worse, they removed it based on what someone else posted. I have pics and other evidence to backup the find if needed, but wasn't even give the chance to prove it.

 

If the CO is going to be that hard lined on log signing, they need to put that in the ache description.

[+tozainamboku]

The Guideline said the log book needs to be signed or the CO could or will delete your logs.

 

The guide doesn't say anything of the sort, there is no "needs" to sign anything. If I get to GZ, find the cache and the log is soaked and unsignable, I'm logging the find.

 

The guideline says:

Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed.

The guidelines also say:

Owner is responsible for geocache page upkeep. As the owner of your geocache listing, your responsibility includes quality control of all posts to the cache page. Delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off-topic or otherwise inappropriate.

 

Therefore, if your signature isn't in the log, there is the chance your log could be deleted, and Groundspeak may not necessarily back you up if your log does get deleted. Groundspeak only guarantees your online log if the physical log was signed.

 

There should be some tag for CO to mark cache if the CO "requires" a log entry or not to validate a find, otherwise, it's honor system.

I think it's generally understood that all cache owners (except the handful that allow armchair logs) require that you sign the log. That's one of the core pillars of geocaching. The part that varies is whether the cache owner ever compares the physical and online logs. If they don't, then they're working with the honour system. Those that do are very much in the minority.

 

To be on the safe side, you should always have some proof that you've found a cache. The best proof is to sign the log. If that isn't possible for whatever reason, you should find some other way to prove to the cache owner that you did indeed find it. If it's an evil, well-cammoed, or cleverly hidden cache, you might be able to give them a detailed description of how it's hidden that only a finder would be able to provide. If there isn't anything too notable about it, take a picture of the cache and/or its log with some identifiable features in view. If you ever log a find, but weren't able to sign the log, make sure you say so in your online log and state that you can provide further proof if requested. If you do any of this, Groundspeak will very likely reinstate your log if the cache owner deletes it.

 

Thanks for the clarification, I guess I'm just hacked off because the CO didn't contact me at all before deleting my find, worse, they removed it based on what someone else posted. I have pics and other evidence to backup the find if needed, but wasn't even give the chance to prove it.

 

If the CO is going to be that hard lined on log signing, they need to put that in the ache description.

The reality is that there are no rules or guideline saying you must sign the log in order to claim a find. The sections of the guidelines quoted by The A-Team are more of restriction on when cache owners may delete logs. These guidelines have developed over time in response to a number of issues. What they do allow is for cache owners to delete log that are bogus, counterfeit, off-topic, or otherwise inappropriate. At one point in time, cache owners could create addtional requirements to log a find online. Now only certain geocaching related challenges are allowed and other requirements can no longer be enforced. The wording of the guideline is that physical caches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed [regardless of any additional requirement that a cache owner may have posted on the cache page]; cache owners were told to stop enforcing any additional requirements they had.

 

It has long been accepted that when you find a geocache you should sign the physical logbook (if at all possible). Signing the logbook provides verification that you found the cache - both to you as the finder and to others who come later.

 

Where I disagree with The A-Team is the statement "I think it's generally understood that all cache owners (except the handful that allow armchair logs) require that you sign the log." The truth is that the overwhelming majority of cache owners are reasonable about online logs. They understand that there are times where the physical log cannot be signed. They even accept that sometimes a cacher forgets a pen or perhaps was so excited to find the cache that they forgot to sign. The overwhelming majority of geocache owners would not delete your found log if you found a wet mushy log that you couldn't sign.

 

There's no prize, no leaderboard, and no trophy, so there's no reason to get your knickers in a twist over trivialities like not signing a log book. Sure there have been cases of someone sitting at home in an armchair posting logs for caches they have never been to. Since these generally are pretty obvious these logs get deleted by many cache owners. Generally, these accounts get reported to Groundspeak and are banned. These are not the same as someone who occasionally forget a pencil.

 

I almost like the idea of requiring the few cache owners who insist on deleting online finds when the physical log was not signed to mark the cache page some way. I think a big scarlet letter P would be appropriate. I doubt this will happen though.

[+The A-Team]

Where I disagree with The A-Team is the statement "I think it's generally understood that all cache owners (except the handful that allow armchair logs) require that you sign the log." The truth is that the overwhelming majority of cache owners are reasonable about online logs. They understand that there are times where the physical log cannot be signed. They even accept that sometimes a cacher forgets a pen or perhaps was so excited to find the cache that they forgot to sign. The overwhelming majority of geocache owners would not delete your found log if you found a wet mushy log that you couldn't sign.

I'll re-quote myself with one change of wording that should make my meaning more clear:

I think it's generally understood that all cache owners (except the handful that allow armchair logs) require expect that you sign the log.

What I should have said is that most cache owners expect the log to be signed. The whole point of geocaching is to find the container and record your visit. Most are understanding enough to allow finds when there are extenuating circumstances and the log can't be signed. The few that will be rigid about requiring a one-to-one matching of the logs, with no exceptions, are very few.

 

I could have worded my previous post better, but we actually agree on this point.

[+Shop99er]

The Guideline said the log book needs to be signed or the CO could or will delete your logs.

 

The guide doesn't say anything of the sort, there is no "needs" to sign anything. If I get to GZ, find the cache and the log is soaked and unsignable, I'm logging the find.

 

The guideline says:

Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed.

The guidelines also say:

Owner is responsible for geocache page upkeep. As the owner of your geocache listing, your responsibility includes quality control of all posts to the cache page. Delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off-topic or otherwise inappropriate.

 

Therefore, if your signature isn't in the log, there is the chance your log could be deleted, and Groundspeak may not necessarily back you up if your log does get deleted. Groundspeak only guarantees your online log if the physical log was signed.

 

There should be some tag for CO to mark cache if the CO "requires" a log entry or not to validate a find, otherwise, it's honor system.

I think it's generally understood that all cache owners (except the handful that allow armchair logs) require that you sign the log. That's one of the core pillars of geocaching. The part that varies is whether the cache owner ever compares the physical and online logs. If they don't, then they're working with the honour system. Those that do are very much in the minority.

 

To be on the safe side, you should always have some proof that you've found a cache. The best proof is to sign the log. If that isn't possible for whatever reason, you should find some other way to prove to the cache owner that you did indeed find it. If it's an evil, well-cammoed, or cleverly hidden cache, you might be able to give them a detailed description of how it's hidden that only a finder would be able to provide. If there isn't anything too notable about it, take a picture of the cache and/or its log with some identifiable features in view. If you ever log a find, but weren't able to sign the log, make sure you say so in your online log and state that you can provide further proof if requested. If you do any of this, Groundspeak will very likely reinstate your log if the cache owner deletes it.

 

Thanks for the clarification, I guess I'm just hacked off because the CO didn't contact me at all before deleting my find, worse, they removed it based on what someone else posted. I have pics and other evidence to backup the find if needed, but wasn't even give the chance to prove it.

 

If the CO is going to be that hard lined on log signing, they need to put that in the ache description.

The reality is that there are no rules or guideline saying you must sign the log in order to claim a find. The sections of the guidelines quoted by The A-Team are more of restriction on when cache owners may delete logs. These guidelines have developed over time in response to a number of issues. What they do allow is for cache owners to delete log that are bogus, counterfeit, off-topic, or otherwise inappropriate. At one point in time, cache owners could create addtional requirements to log a find online. Now only certain geocaching related challenges are allowed and other requirements can no longer be enforced. The wording of the guideline is that physical caches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed [regardless of any additional requirement that a cache owner may have posted on the cache page]; cache owners were told to stop enforcing any additional requirements they had.

 

It has long been accepted that when you find a geocache you should sign the physical logbook (if at all possible). Signing the logbook provides verification that you found the cache - both to you as the finder and to others who come later.

 

Where I disagree with The A-Team is the statement "I think it's generally understood that all cache owners (except the handful that allow armchair logs) require that you sign the log." The truth is that the overwhelming majority of cache owners are reasonable about online logs. They understand that there are times where the physical log cannot be signed. They even accept that sometimes a cacher forgets a pen or perhaps was so excited to find the cache that they forgot to sign. The overwhelming majority of geocache owners would not delete your found log if you found a wet mushy log that you couldn't sign.

 

There's no prize, no leaderboard, and no trophy, so there's no reason to get your knickers in a twist over trivialities like not signing a log book. Sure there have been cases of someone sitting at home in an armchair posting logs for caches they have never been to. Since these generally are pretty obvious these logs get deleted by many cache owners. Generally, these accounts get reported to Groundspeak and are banned. These are not the same as someone who occasionally forget a pencil.

 

I almost like the idea of requiring the few cache owners who insist on deleting online finds when the physical log was not signed to mark the cache page some way. I think a big scarlet letter P would be appropriate. I doubt this will happen though.

 

Toz, there is a requirement for signing.

 

From the knowledge Book Logging of All Physical Geocaches.

[+Davequal]

I've never seen a container that was damaged in such a way that it could not be opened to find the log.

 

I once had a nano that was cross threaded. I attempted 2 pairs of pliers, I would have destroyed the container before it opened. 1 of 2 logs I have never signed.

 

The second, I lost my pen on the way in to the cache and had pictures to prove my find. The CO let me use those until I get back to the area to sign the log.

 

 

[+Totem Clan]

I've never seen a container that was damaged in such a way that it could not be opened to find the log.

 

I once had a nano that was cross threaded. I attempted 2 pairs of pliers, I would have destroyed the container before it opened. 1 of 2 logs I have never signed.

 

The second, I lost my pen on the way in to the cache and had pictures to prove my find. The CO let me use those until I get back to the area to sign the log.

I have one that I have not signed but logged. It was a cache in pioneer cemetery in a pasture. You have to go under an eletric fence to get to it. It is a micro so there was no pen. I thought my son grabbed the pen before we went for it. The only reason we didn't go back for it is because it belongs to a good friend of mine. I had the log in hand. If I had the pen it would be signed. He knows I was there and had the log and that's good enough for us both.

Now on the other hand, one of his caches was missing when I went for it. I didn't log a find and he did not and would not offer me a find. After he replaced I went and grabbed the cache and signed it. I knew right where it was. I even told him where it was. That's how he knew it was missing for sure. The easy find I've ever had but still but count till I had the log and signed it.

[+tozainamboku]

I'll re-quote myself with one change of wording that should make my meaning more clear:

I think it's generally understood that all cache owners (except the handful that allow armchair logs) require expect that you sign the log.

What I should have said is that most cache owners expect the log to be signed. The whole point of geocaching is to find the container and record your visit. Most are understanding enough to allow finds when there are extenuating circumstances and the log can't be signed. The few that will be rigid about requiring a one-to-one matching of the logs, with no exceptions, are very few.

 

I could have worded my previous post better, but we actually agree on this point.

I don't know what most cache owners expect. Signing of a a physical log when you find a cache serves a purposes and has generally been suggested in various forms of "rules" or instructions ever since Dave Ulmer posted instructions for people who found his original stash. But is is clear that many people hide caches and realize that not everyone who finds their cache will sign the physical log book or even log that they found the cache online. So it's difficult for me to accept the statement that all cache owners expect that you sign the log.

 

I think what is implied in your statement is that cache owners expect the physical log to be signed as a pre-condition for logging the find online. With the exception of the few cache owners who seem to insist this is a requirement, most of us agree that there are times when they would accept online logs without the physical log being signed. So it still seems the expectation that the log be signed as a pre-condition for logging a find online, is not held by all cache owners, at least not all of the time. Instead it may be that cache owners have an expectation that the cache was found before being logged online. Some cache owners may expect the finder to be able to demonstrate that they did, in fact, find the cache. A signature in the physical log is certainly a way to demonstrate you found the cache. Most people will agree that if the physical log is signed, this is sufficient evidence that the online find is not bogus.

 

Toz, there is a requirement for signing.

 

From the knowledge Book Logging of All Physical Geocaches.

I've lost count of how many times I've covered this, but I will do it once more.

 

If you know the history of that section of the guidelines you would know that it was added as part of the change that eliminated additional logging requirements. Read the whole section carefully and you will see it still is about additional logging requirements. The statement you are pointing out says that physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed. It does not say physical geocaches cannot be logged online as "Found" unless the physical log has been signed. It is meant as an indication that cache owners may not have additional requirements for you to log the find online. The very next sentence, in the same paragraph, goes on to indicate the exception to this for challenge caches.

 

As it is written, I will agree that a cache owner can, if they want, require the physical log to be signed. I can't say why Groundspeak chose to word it this way. From discussions I've had with reviewers and Groundspeak lackeys I believe they would prefer that cache owners did not delete online finds solely because the physical log was not signed, but they recognize that there are certain situations, such as a mental or physical challenge to retrieve or open the cache, where the signature in the log provides the best guarantee that finder has completed the cache as the cache owner intends.

[+The A-Team]

I think what is implied in your statement is that cache owners expect the physical log to be signed as a pre-condition for logging the find online.

No, in this case I was talking solely about the physical log (though I can see how my choice of wording would imply otherwise, sorry). Right from the first stash, AFAICT, the concept of geocaching went like this:

Step 1: Cache gets hidden

Step 2: Cache gets found

Step 3: Finder records experience in the physical logbook

Whether said finder additionally records the visit online is secondary.

To me, signing the log is an integral part of geocaching. Maybe my expectations are simply too lofty, but I expect that finders will do their best to sign the logs in my caches. I do not require that cachers sign my log, but I do expect it. I've always been under the impression that most other hiders were of the same mindset, but perhaps I'm mistaken. Personally, I'm going to keep signing the logs of caches I find.

[+DaysJourney]

I look at it this way: signing a log is the one thing that everyone is expected to do to signify that they indeed found the cache. However, it's really up to each cache owner to enforce whatever standards they find acceptable. As far as my caches are concerned, if someone logged that they didn't like nanos and did not want to be bothered with unrolling a log, small space, etc, then I would not consider that a find and would probably delete that log. I don't think its fair that everyone else is going to the trouble to finish the job, except for a few others decided they don't have to. Now, if you let me know that you had a physical limitation, then I would absolutely give you the find. The same goes for the log being soaked, cache broken or other reason that's beyond your control. The finder is responsible for signing the log and the owner is just as responsible for making sure the cache is maintained so that they can sign it.