Protocol advice

[+family brown]

Morning all

 

I am still quite new to this game. I've hidden 4 caches, 3 of which are doing ok.

 

But I thought I'd try a multi, and so far only 2 people have found it, another 1 hasn't and feedback is that clues are not obvious. The cache concerend is Run, Rabbit, Run!! GC2Z19F

 

The idea was to get people to have a (short) walk before finding the cache, can all be done inside of 15-20 minutes. But the things to be counted would seem to be less clear than they could or should be. Its a big container too, a 2 or 3-litre tupperware, so I want people to find it and use it.

 

So I'm wondering whether I should either

a - stick a physical container at one end of the walk with the cache co-ordinates in it (which has a supplementary question: does that count as a chache in its own right or not?) as so make it a proper multi rather than what is really an off-set

b - make it an ordinary traditional cache and just describe the walk and let people decide whether to bother doing the walk

c - find an appropriateely themed puzzle and turn it into a puzzle cache

 

But is this acceptable etiquette, to change things around after publication and 2 finds?

 

Comments would be appreciated.

[+Malpas Wanderer]

Persevere with the multi.

 

They all look like straight forward questions

 

You can always monitor response and reword the cache page if you consider it necessary.

 

Multi caches are usually slower on the uptake and three seekers probably isn't fair judgement.

 

Have you contacted the seekers and asked what numbers they collected, to envision why they had difficulties and checked all calculations?

 

Hang in there an perfect it

[+Graculus]

Hi

I've just read through the cache and it seems fine. I would say it might be easier if you identify in the description which waypoint is which. For example you've described a location "Return the way you came, until you find a half-buried concrete pipe." So you could call this waypoint "concrete pipe". You can edit the waypoint names and descriptions even though the cache is published. Be careful as you do it because it's all too easy to delete them by mistake!

 

Make sure the coordinates for the stages are as accurate as possible. If you take someone to a fence to count the bars if they were 50 or 100 feet away looking at a different fence they could get the wrong answer. Good idea with your GPS is to take several readings walking to the location from different directions from 50 feet away each time (if possible!) then take an average of those readings.

 

In the formula to work out the actual location you have 2D. If we imagine D is 6 for example is 2D 26 or 2x6=12? Being mathematical myself I'd say 2D is 2xD i.e. 12. The rest of the formula says this is how it should be but someone could mistake it.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

[+Amberel]

Agreed what everyone else has said. It is important to look at things from a searchers point of view. Look around to see if there are other things that might cause ambiguity or confusion, e.g. make sure there are no other half buried concrete pipes in the vicinity, or anything else that might be interpreted as a half buried concrete pipe by someone who isn't 100% sure of what to expect. If there is, choose something else, or disambiguate it.

 

Rgds, Andy

[+Bear and Ragged]

Sometimes, if an equation is involved, a 'check sum' to confirm you have the correct numbers can be a big help. eg The numbers you end up with should add up to ??.

 

And. Multi's usually are 'less visited' but often get good logs from those that do visit.

[+family brown]

Gosh, that was quick!

 

Thank you everyone, that is very encouraging. I will make no hasty decisions.

 

Yes, I have contacted the finders, I THINK my descriptions are ok, modified slightly after each contact. I also had my parents actually follow the instructions without trouble. They're not cachers, but keep an eye on the cache for me on request, so they did have the unfair advantage of knowing where it was!

 

I'll email the DNF cacher and ask whether particular problems.

 

Chris, that's very useful, thank you. I have amended the description (2D is indeed 2xD, what other interpretation could any rational being have? Oh, wait, we're talking cachers... ) and waypoint names. I think that will be helpful too, hadn't thought of that.

 

About to add a checksum, good idea.

 

Thanks again

 

Russell

[+Graculus]

You can also use sites like Geochecker so finders can check they have the right final worked out then add a link to the cache page. If you need to know how to add such links using HTML code then go to my resources site (link under my signature). Not really applicable to a multi that you are walking around outside doing and you've printed out the cache page

 

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

[+drsolly]

2D is indeed 2xD, what other interpretation could any rational being have?

 

I have a handicap here; one of my degrees is in maths. You might think that would make things easier - actually, it sometimes has the opposite effect, because I can sometimes see more than one possibility. And my Asperges (probably a not entirely unrelated problem) sometimes stops me from considering that the cache setter might have taken the wrong choice; it simply doesn't occur to me.

 

One of my worst fumbles, was over BEDMAS (Brackets,Exponentiation,Divide,Multiply,Add,Subtract), and the cache setter thought that you perform calculations from left to right, ignoring the fact that multiplication takes precedence over addition. 2 + 3 * 4 = 14, and he thought it should be 20. By the way, most calculators work that way, even though it's wrong. You're supposed to do the precedence yourself, rather than rely on the calculator.

 

Another time I got into trouble because I know that 1 isn't a prime, and the cache setter thought that it was.

 

A lot of multi caches give coords like 52 21.3AB, and I usually assume that I substitute a single digit for A, not that I multiply A by 3 and use that as the first two digits.

 

So I don't know what to advise, except to ask cache setters to please make allowance for people with my handicap. If you use brackets, then that clarifies things, e.g. 52 21.3(A)( or, with the other meaning, 52 21.(3*A)B. If in doubt, try it out with someone who has the maths handicap.

[+Bear and Ragged]

You can also use sites like Geochecker so finders can check they have the right final worked out then add a link to the cache page. If you need to know how to add such links using HTML code then go to my resources site (link under my signature). Not really applicable to a multi that you are walking around outside doing and you've printed out the cache page

Handy.

When you're in the middle of nowhere, with a GPS and a mobile phone that don't do internet access...

[+MartyBartfast]

Also, you've listed it as a Premium members only cache, nothing wrong in that, but it will also limit the numbe of people who will look for it.

 

Edit to add: If you did decide to go for your option 2 or 3 (change to a trad or puzzle) then you will have to archive it and create a new cache as I don't think you can change the cache type once it's published.

Edited August 3, 2011 by MartyBartfast

[+Graculus]

<snip>Edit to add: If you did decide to go for your option 2 or 3 (change to a trad or puzzle) then you will have to archive it and create a new cache as I don't think you can change the cache type once it's published.

That is correct, the owner cannot change a cache type and reviewers won't do it either.

 

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

[Alan White]

So I don't know what to advise, except to ask cache setters to please make allowance for people with my handicap.

I expect you said that tongue-in-cheek but I don't regard it as a handicap. The problem is when the cache owner ignores or won't accept the correction so that each alternate log says something like "the maths is wrong but I worked out what was meant".

 

As well as the ones you mention, one of my pet hates is the assumption of a zero in the wrong place. E.g. given N51°12.AB and A=2, B=3 is the intended answer N51°12.023 or N51°12.230? Mathematically the correct answer is N51°12.230 but I've lost count of the number of times the cache owner has meant N51°12.023 because "leading zeros don't count" . I blame the education system.

[+thehoomer]

I'm not very good at maths despite the fact that all my degrees are in it . As has been said, Multi's and puzzle caches don't get done as often. We have a multi cache called Trigger Twigger GCWTW8. It was the first cache we ever placed and we are very proud of it but it apart from a failed attempt a couple of months ago, hasn't attracted a visitor for 9 months. However, the visitors it has had have enjoyed it very much. Reading the logs for multi caches, are almost always more entertaining, so well done on devising it and it will get visitors.....honest .

[+drsolly]

So I don't know what to advise, except to ask cache setters to please make allowance for people with my handicap.

I expect you said that tongue-in-cheek but I don't regard it as a handicap. The problem is when the cache owner ignores or won't accept the correction so that each alternate log says something like "the maths is wrong but I worked out what was meant".

 

As well as the ones you mention, one of my pet hates is the assumption of a zero in the wrong place. E.g. given N51°12.AB and A=2, B=3 is the intended answer N51°12.023 or N51°12.230? Mathematically the correct answer is N51°12.230 but I've lost count of the number of times the cache owner has meant N51°12.023 because "leading zeros don't count" . I blame the education system.

I would say that mathematically (a word that I'm not sure means anything, and perhaps the word I should have used is "pedantically") the correct answer is N51°12.23 (which, of course, is the same location as N51°12.230).

[Alan White]

I would say that mathematically (a word that I'm not sure means anything, and perhaps the word I should have used is "pedantically") the correct answer is N51°12.23 (which, of course, is the same location as N51°12.230).

You're right, of course, and being a fellow pedant I thought after I'd hibernated the computer that I should have made the correct answer more clear. I did, however, want to make it obvious how the solution would fit into the usual format as that seems to be where the problem is.

[+Happy Humphrey]

Maths apart (I hate caches that involve arithmetic and maths!); the fact is that multis tend to attract fewer visitors than traditionals, and on top of that Premium Member Only caches are invisible to non-Premium Members. So two visits per month is likely to be a pretty good hit rate for any such cache unless it's in a really popular area.

 

If you're happy with the cache yourself then leave it like that and accept that it will be visited infrequently.

[Alan White]

If you're happy with the cache yourself then leave it like that and accept that it will be visited infrequently.

Indeed. If the preference is for a frequently-visited cache then archive it and relist as a trad. As it is those who want to do the short walk will do it and those who don't will miss out.

 

And then there are those who, like me, will calculate the cache location without visiting any of the waypoints

[+Malpas Wanderer]

If you're happy with the cache yourself then leave it like that and accept that it will be visited infrequently.

Indeed. If the preference is for a frequently-visited cache then archive it and relist as a trad. As it is those who want to do the short walk will do it and those who don't will miss out.

 

And then there are those who, like me, will calculate the cache location without visiting any of the waypoints

 

Often that infrequent log is more welcome than hundreds of four letter (TFTC) logs.

 

And yes many like Alan will do their homework. Its a joy to see how enterprising some cachers are.

[+Fianccetto]

<snip>Edit to add: If you did decide to go for your option 2 or 3 (change to a trad or puzzle) then you will have to archive it and create a new cache as I don't think you can change the cache type once it's published.

That is correct, the owner cannot change a cache type and reviewers won't do it either.

 

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

 

Is there anything else about a cache that can't be changed after it's published. (I realise it's best to think it all through and test it so that nothing will need to be changed, but some things are easier to change than others, it seems).

[+MartyBartfast]

 

Is there anything else about a cache that can't be changed after it's published. (I realise it's best to think it all through and test it so that nothing will need to be changed, but some things are easier to change than others, it seems).

 

There's a limit to how far you can move it without getting a reviewer involved, other than that I think you can change everything.

[+NattyBooshka]

I blame the education system.

I remember when we had one of those... Just.

[+family brown]

Thanks everyone.

 

Since posting, I've had a muggle relative check it for me. Went round with them, no hints allowed, making notes of their comments.

 

And they found it with only one minor query, which I've now rectified or rather clarified in the listing.

 

So infrequently visited multi it is!

[team tisri]

2D is indeed 2xD, what other interpretation could any rational being have?

 

If you get a cache with a coordinate of N 51 23.ABC then usually ABC are single digit numbers that are listed, so if A=3, B=7, C=6 then the coordinate would be N 51 23.376 as opposed to N 51 23.126 (caches like this may also give specific instructions in case one of the numbers is more than 10).

 

If the coordinates said something like N 51 23.B(2A)C then I'd expect to find it at N 51 23.766

 

I recall seeing a few caches where they listed coordinates as N51 23.X W 0 14.Y and gave calculations to derive X and Y, along with an instruction to pad with leading zeroes as necessary (so X=15 would result in N51 23.015)

 

Sometimes multis just don't get visited as often because you have to go to several places to get a single smiley, so the number-chasers may leave it until they've done all the local traditionals. People who just want a quick cache-n-dash may leave it because they don't have time for it. People who don't like to walk further than the parking meter may not do it because of the walk involved.

 

But then if it's a good cache the people who do take the time to do it will be rewarded. I never used to bother with multis with lots of stages but having done a few excellent ones in the New Forest (and a few in London) I'm much more open-minded about them these days.

Edited August 25, 2011 by team tisri