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CacheDrone

Business names in listings

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Were the cache owners given a chance to change the cache listings to comply with the guidelines before these caches were archived en masse? and if not, why not?

The caches were not archived. They were temporarily disabled with a message explaining the problem. The reviewer could have simply logged "Reviewer Notes" explaining the problem and not disabled any of the caches, but that probably wouldn't have been as effective. As one reviewer explained:

 

I could post a "Reviewer Note", but I can say from experience that "Reviewer Notes" are rarely noticed by the majority of Players after their cache has been published.

Reviewer Notes have given me a 20-30% success rate in communicating with a Player; the Disabling of a cache has provided an 80-90% success rate.

Yes, in these cases I'm wielding the strength vested in me by Signal to get my point across; I (as with the other Reviewers) do my best not to abuse it.

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There is no example at all where there needs to be a business name and/or product mentioned in a geocaching listing regardless of its intent. I can provide a different version 100% of the time that demonstrates this,

 

I do not agree and have already provided some examples before. In case of a long distance hiking cache or a bicycle cache it can be very important information to write something about buses or trains that one could take to get back to the starting point. Links to the schedules are also very convenient.

 

Or take some tourist attraction, a famous art gallery e.g. I do want to get background information and want to know that this cache leads me to a gallery and why this gallery is interesting. I do not want to be led just to some arbitrary coordinates and know nothing about why it could be interesting for me to go there.

 

Certainly the findability of the container is not effected by leaving out information of that type, but for the overall experience much more plays a role than just a set of coordinates.

 

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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All those things can be mentioned without advertising them by name. You can also post a related website on the page and let that do the talking for you. I know of a cacher that recently realized that he had some commercial content on his page and rather than complain and wait for Reviewer action, he changed his description to be a little more vague about it and it accomplished the same effect. You can say that there is an interesting museum nearby. You can refer to a trail head by coordinates. None of these things (or anything else for that matter) must be mentioned by brand.

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All those things can be mentioned without advertising them by name.

 

I would not refer to the public transportation example as advertising. Certainly one van leave out the names, links and details, but this makes it less convenient for the cachers and forces them to do the research work by themselves. When I am going for caches, I like to profit from the preparation already done by the hider.

Just knowing that I can go back by bus and not knowing beforehand without doing my own research which company, where I do find the schedule, etc increases my work share without any advantage for whomever.

 

Another example:

Take this very nice Viennese multi cache (very old when it has been normal to name caches after the location)

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=e657960c-cf4b-4351-ae9e-b536143e0c62

Removing the name of the area and when the market is open, would remove some essential part from this cache (I guess that should become apparent also when translating the next with an automatic translator).

 

You can also post a related website on the page and let that do the talking for you.

 

In cases where such a website exists and if such links are allowed (e.g. links to the internet site of the museum itself are less welcome than just mentioning its name), the one could do that. There are cases where these assumptions are not fulfilled and also I rather would prefer to have the information on gc.com and be sure that the information stays there and is available as long as the cache is available.

 

I know of a cacher that recently realized that he had some commercial content on his page and rather than complain and wait for Reviewer action, he changed his description to be a little more vague about it and it accomplished the same effect. You can say that there is an interesting museum nearby. You can refer to a trail head by coordinates. None of these things (or anything else for that matter) must be mentioned by brand.

 

There is not much in our lives where "must" applies to. The key issue for me is a matter of preference. I prefer a clear statement about which museum the cache is dedicated to and why this museum is special to vague statements of the type you mentioned. I guess that those for them geocaching is mainly a hide and seek game played with GPSr and not mainly a leisure activity that brings them to nice and interesting locations, do care less about the loss in information than the latter group to which I belong to.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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The Museum example may fall under "Pop Culture" and actually be allowed (perhaps). "Interesting Museum" can fill in quite nicely in place of "Royal Ontario Museum" though unless you are in a spot that has many museums clustered together. Then use "Interesting Museums ... I like the one with the roman columns out front".

 

As for transit routes and bus companies, we've already had it hashed out here that a link to a restaurant's menu is not permissible. The routes/schedules are a bus company's menu. There's a key word in that too - company. You don't have to mention the routes/schedules. Rather than saying "Mississauga Transit will take you back at a cost of $2.15" you could just say "Route 2B goes back toward the start", again unless you are in an area that has a lot of transit systems clustered together. Around here there's typically one transit system per municipality.

 

Or just use the "Public Transportation Available" attribute and let the cachers look it up. Face it, if you know how to take a bus to the start co-ordinates .... you know how to get the information to get back.

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The Museum example may fall under "Pop Culture" and actually be allowed (perhaps). "Interesting Museum" can fill in quite nicely in place of "Royal Ontario Museum" though unless you are in a spot that has many museums clustered together. Then use "Interesting Museums ... I like the one with the roman columns out front".

 

As for transit routes and bus companies, we've already had it hashed out here that a link to a restaurant's menu is not permissible. The routes/schedules are a bus company's menu. There's a key word in that too - company. You don't have to mention the routes/schedules. Rather than saying "Mississauga Transit will take you back at a cost of $2.15" you could just say "Route 2B goes back toward the start", again unless you are in an area that has a lot of transit systems clustered together. Around here there's typically one transit system per municipality.

 

Or just use the "Public Transportation Available" attribute and let the cachers look it up. Face it, if you know how to take a bus to the start co-ordinates .... you know how to get the information to get back.

 

Well put NP, I couldn't agree more. The premise for those that are arguing (not all but some) for the use of commercial names have a weak foundation of "assisting fellow geocachers" when it really has little to do with the our game. Once taken to the coordinates, we have the ability to explore our area or to choose not to. There is yet to be an example of the use of a commercial name that is absolutely crucial.

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There is yet to be an example of the use of a commercial name that is absolutely crucial.

Why does it have to be crucial to be allowed? Nobody's gaining anything from the mention of a business name (except those few cachers who do find the info useful in some way), and no harm is done to anybody either. So why disallow it?

Edited by dfx

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Why does it have to be crucial to be allowed?

 

Because that is how TPTB want to apply their rules.

 

Congrats, you have arrived at the core of the whole discussion.

 

What's the reason for having this rule and for applying it this way?

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I don't agree with "if you don't need it, then don't use it". I can find hundreds of ways to not do something. That should not mean everyone else has to follow my example.

 

As it has been pointed out that most municipalities have only one transit system, the suggestion of saying even minimal information about a bus could be considered commercial. That being said, how much money is the bus company going to make off of geocachers compared to what they make each day from none geocachers.

 

Personally I think the reasonable man rule should be used instead of the black and white approach.

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Congrats, you have arrived at the core of the whole discussion.

 

What's the reason for having this rule and for applying it this way?

 

I am sure of it now, I don't know any 2 year olds that ask "why" more than the pair of you, lol!

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Congrats, you have arrived at the core of the whole discussion.

 

What's the reason for having this rule and for applying it this way?

 

I am sure of it now, I don't know any 2 year olds that ask "why" more than the pair of you, lol!

 

Sorry about that, I'm a man of reason, meaning that everything needs to have a reason :P

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Well put NP, I couldn't agree more. The premise for those that are arguing (not all but some) for the use of commercial names have a weak foundation of "assisting fellow geocachers" when it really has little to do with the our game

 

I guess that depends a whole lot on what one regards as our game. I dare to state that there is no such thing as geocaching means something different to different people. My arguments were from the point of view what I like to be provided with in cache descriptions and was not from the point of view of my own caches. While you and me have comparable find counts, the split up into cache types is completely different: It is 975/587/346 (mine) vs 1728/65/108 (yours) for trad./multi/mystery caches.

 

I started geocaching not to search for containers, or to play around with my GPS-r (I did not even own one at that time), but to decrease the time in need to invest in planning and researching about places to visit, hikes to go for etc. For that reason, I also prefer caches with multiple stages as they typically guide me along the tour and it is not up to me to make the planning.

 

 

Once taken to the coordinates, we have the ability to explore our area or to choose not to.

 

That's true, but on these premises I will not even go to the coordinates motivated by the geocaching.com site. If I do the research on my own and on other sites, I do not need gc.com.

 

My favourite urban caches are multi caches that show me the attractions of the area and provide me with information on them so that I do not need to use guide books, search the internet etc.

 

There is yet to be an example of the use of a commercial name that is absolutely crucial.

 

I mentioned before that no additional information is absolutely crucial for finding containers. It is however absolutely crucial for my enjoyment of geocaching.

 

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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The Museum example may fall under "Pop Culture" and actually be allowed (perhaps). "Interesting Museum" can fill in quite nicely in place of "Royal Ontario Museum" though unless you are in a spot that has many museums clustered together. Then use "Interesting Museums ... I like the one with the roman columns out front".

 

For tourists this does not help much in the planning stage. Of course, when already there that sort of information makes sense, but not at home when trying to select a few suitable caches from several hundreds based on the information in the cache description.

 

As for transit routes and bus companies, we've already had it hashed out here that a link to a restaurant's menu is not permissible. The routes/schedules are a bus company's menu. There's a key word in that too - company.

 

If that key word did not arise, it would have been pretty silly to mention the example in this thread.

 

You don't have to mention the routes/schedules. Rather than saying "Mississauga Transit will take you back at a cost of $2.15" you could just say "Route 2B goes back toward the start", again unless you are in an area that has a lot of transit systems clustered together. Around here there's typically one transit system per municipality.

 

Once again as in my other reply: This sort of information might be an acceptable replacement for cachers who just have finished the cache, but valuable information is lacking for the planning at home. If I know the company, I know beforehand e.g. if certain discounts that are available to me, apply and I make then the decision whether or not the cache is worth what it will cost me. Moreover, if a bus e.g. runs only twice a day and the last bus runs at say 4 p.m. and I know that I will need longer for my tour, I have to delete the cache from my list of feasible ones. Of course I could do all the research on my own - still a link to the schedule saves time and comes in very handy.

 

Or just use the "Public Transportation Available" attribute and let the cachers look it up. Face it, if you know how to take a bus to the start co-ordinates .... you know how to get the information to get back.

 

I guess we are talking about different situations. Suppose a bicycle multi cache starts in a larger city and from there moves about 100km away to some location not even known precisely in advance. The transport system there can be a totally different one than the one used by the cacher to reach the starting point (if any public transportation is used at all). In my area there are e.g. different train companies and not all of them have (enough) space for bicycles. If I know the company, I know immediately whether I could take a train back to my starting point with reasonable probability or need to cycle back.

 

Cezanne

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Why does it have to be crucial to be allowed?

 

Because that is how TPTB want to apply their rules.

 

I started geocaching more than 9 years ago. They added some of these new rules to the knowledge book very recently.

Before reading this thread I jhave not even been aware of that not only linking to businesses is not allowed, but also mentioning them in the

text of cache descriptions. That change is pretty recent and the cachers have not even been notified of it, neither has any reason provided for the change.

It gets pretty much absurd for me if e.g. a cache cannot be called any longer Museum of Modern Art.

 

Recently a cache series in my region has been published where Schilcherlauf appears in the title - that's even a twofold problem as Schilcher is the name of a special Styrian wine and is a kind of protected brand name and the Schilcherlauf is a running competition. On the other hand, having Schilcherlauf in the cache name makes sense as the caches are hidden along the track of the Schilcherlauf and any local cacher then knows at once that the track leads mainly along tarmac roads (as it is not a trail run).

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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I mentioned before that no additional information is absolutely crucial for finding containers. It is however absolutely crucial for my enjoyment of geocaching.

 

Then that puts you in the extreme minority.

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All those things can be mentioned without advertising them by name.

 

ooh give me a break...wth am i supposed to say instead of "turn right at Home Depot"..."turn right at the store with the orange sign"? :rolleyes:

 

 

You can say that there is an interesting museum nearby. You can refer to a trail head by coordinates. None of these things (or anything else for that matter) must be mentioned by brand.

 

how do you know what kind of museum i find interesting?

 

and now saying "Bruce Trail" is commercial too? :blink:

 

 

Congrats, you have arrived at the core of the whole discussion.

 

What's the reason for having this rule and for applying it this way?

 

I am sure of it now, I don't know any 2 year olds that ask "why" more than the pair of you, lol!

 

he is one only...but i will interpret that as me making the pair :anibad:

 

well see that's the thing, i am not a 2 year old...

 

you can give a 2 year old any answer you want and they will accept it because they don't know any better

 

as long as nobody can give me a logic answer aimed at an adult, as to why mentioning a store name on my cache page is advertising, i will continue to ask "why"

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I mentioned before that no additional information is absolutely crucial for finding containers. It is however absolutely crucial for my enjoyment of geocaching.

 

Then that puts you in the extreme minority.

 

Not necessarily. I have noticed e.g. that in my area caches like this one

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=07a80c9a-ff0c-4c67-89b0-ee74f4114a3d

are receiving much more positive logs than

comparable caches where the cache description does hardly provide any information on the location and where everything else is the same. I do not care much about this sort of information in my home town while many local cachers do.

 

When I have spent a few days in Zuerich, I realized that the cache culture there is completely different. In my area a cache like this one

would heavily get criticized for not mentioning that it is next to the world famous Kunsthaus and not providing any information on that museum (opening times etc)

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=2c9259b0-b552-4f3f-adf8-8e5222e77142

 

I know several geocachers who are very busy at work during the week and like me, are happy if the cache pages save them as much planning time as possible.

 

There is another aspect that occurs very frequently in Austria, namely comments on which dishes/beverages are particularly recommendable in places along the way or near the starting point or end point of caches. If e.g. a particularly tasty apple strudle is available somewhere where one passes by and this is not mentioned, many local cachers regard this is a negative aspect. This might be connected to the fact that good food is much more important over here than in North America (also more important than say in Germany or the UK).

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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as long as nobody can give me a logic answer aimed at an adult, as to why mentioning a store name on my cache page is advertising, i will continue to ask "why"

 

I guess all who try to understand what is ongoing here with logic, will fail anyway (with me belonging to that group).

 

The rules that are listed in the knowledge book that refer to the commercial aspect are contradictory in themselves. The second statement

outrules cache listings that have overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion while the sixth one (and by far the most recent one) even excludes mentioning

business names which certainly cannot be considered to have overtones in advertising in the typical case. The overtone formulation would not make any sense and would become partially redundant immediately at the point where already mentioning a business name is not allowed. What apparently happened is that rule 6 has been recently been added as reaction to some debates and complaints by cachers who felt treated unfairly. I have observed several cases recently where the guidelines have been rewritten just because there have been some debates and presumably some reviewers got tired of arguing and preferred to change the formulation of some part of the knowledge book. I do not think that there exists even a single person checking all the knowledge books for consistency when a new part is added.

 

Mentioning a bus company, a museum or that it is recommended to turn right at company X, is certainly not considered as overtone in advertising by anyone.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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Mentioning a bus company, a museum or that it is recommended to turn right at company X, is certainly not considered as overtone in advertising by anyone.

 

Cezanne

 

Most likely a case of TPTB got tired of trying to define what amount of grey is considered acceptable (18% for photographers) and simply went to black/white.

If you say "nothing commercial, at all period" it's a lot easier to defend the position than to spell out what companies can/can not be mentioned in what context.

 

Leaves the reviewers to get back to the other stuff in the queue rather than get bogged down hashing out why that particular entity can/can not be mentioned in that context with one particular cacher at a time. Going back and forth with a flurry of detailed emails defining a grey area does take time away from the reviewers.

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Mentioning a bus company, a museum or that it is recommended to turn right at company X, is certainly not considered as overtone in advertising by anyone.

 

Cezanne

 

Most likely a case of TPTB got tired of trying to define what amount of grey is considered acceptable (18% for photographers) and simply went to black/white.

If you say "nothing commercial, at all period" it's a lot easier to defend the position than to spell out what companies can/can not be mentioned in what context.

 

That might well be, but then the statement that there should not be any overtones on advertisement and promotion that is still in the guidelines does not make sense any longer as even things that are not regarded as advertising at all by the majority of cachers are not allowed.

 

What you write somehow goes in the same direction that what I have mentioned before, namely that the real reason is not that what originally brought along the commercial guideline, namely trying to avoid that companies and other businesses are using cache listings for free advertising. The fact that challenges that are not reviewed at all can be as commercial as they want to be is a further evidence along these lines.

 

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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Mentioning a bus company, a museum or that it is recommended to turn right at company X, is certainly not considered as overtone in advertising by anyone.

 

Cezanne

 

Most likely a case of TPTB got tired of trying to define what amount of grey is considered acceptable (18% for photographers) and simply went to black/white.

If you say "nothing commercial, at all period" it's a lot easier to defend the position than to spell out what companies can/can not be mentioned in what context.

 

Leaves the reviewers to get back to the other stuff in the queue rather than get bogged down hashing out why that particular entity can/can not be mentioned in that context with one particular cacher at a time. Going back and forth with a flurry of detailed emails defining a grey area does take time away from the reviewers.

 

fine, but as Cezanne has pointed out the guidelines contain contradictory statements

 

2. Commercial caches are disallowed. As a general rule, reviewers will not publish cache pages that seem commercial. A commercial cache has one or more of the following characteristics:

 

1. It requires the finder to go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

2. It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion.

3. It contains links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political agendas or social agendas.

4. It contains the logo of a business or organization, including non-profit organizations.

5. The name of a business or commercial product is on the cache page.

6. On very rare occasions, Groundspeak makes an exception for a commercial cache. Arrangements are made before placement. If your cache is commercial in any way, please contact Groundspeak for clarification about how to comply with cache listing guidelines.

 

first says "as a general rule"...which in itself leaves the door open to anything, but the Ontario reviewers have chosen to interpret it as "no way Jose"

 

point 5 has been added not long ago, which in fact makes everything else redundant except for point 6

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Let's start from the top, and what better place to do that then the homepage of Geocaching.com

 

Geocaching is a real-world outdoor treasure hunting game. Players try to locate hidden containers, called geocaches, using GPS-enabled devices and then share their experiences online.

 

Let's go deeper at Guide to the Game

 

Geocaching is a real-world, outdoor treasure hunting game using GPS-enabled devices. Participants navigate to a specific set of GPS coordinates and then attempt to find the geocache (container) hidden at that location.

 

In fact open every link on that page, find one that talks about being able to include various unrelated businesses in anyway at all. Go ahead, I'll wait... Back? Great... let's move on.

 

The site that shall not be name says this

 

.com provides tools for you to catalog, mark and visit interesting and useful locations around the world.

 

Let's go deeper at this FAQ

 

{removed} is a way to mark unique locations on the planet and give them a voice. While GPS technology allows us to pinpoint any location on the planet, mark the location, and share it with others, {removed} is the toolset for categorizing and adding unique information for that location. Groundspeak's slogan is "The Language of Location" and our goal is to give people the tools to help others share and discover unique and interesting locations on the planet. We invite you to share your part of the world with us through {removed}.com.

 

If you want to talk about museums, businesses, tourist locations, restaurants, charities, pubs, lodging and on and on an on about what they have to offer, etc etc... you can do that there. Not here. Listing Requirements and Guidelines say you can't. If you don't like that game that's fine, but that's all the more reason to not bring it here.

 

That is the only answer the question of "Why you can't"... because the LR&G say you can't. I'm not asking you to accept it or agree with it, but don't be surprised when it is used to deny a cache.

 

:cool: CD

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If you want to talk about museums, businesses, tourist locations, restaurants, charities, pubs, lodging and on and on an on about what they have to offer, etc etc... you can do that there. Not here. Listing Requirements and Guidelines say you can't. If you don't like that game that's fine, but that's all the more reason to not bring it here.

That is the only answer the question of "Why you can't"... because the LR&G say you can't. I'm not asking you to accept it or agree with it, but don't be surprised when it is used to deny a cache.

:cool: CD

 

The additional rule that business names are not to mentioned in cache listings has been added during the last few months. Both gc.com and Waymarking do exist for much longer.

Most cachers in my area want to combine geocaching with visiting interesting locations and not to separate these issues and they have done so successfully for many years. Waymarking is not accepted and not used by anyone around here in a serious manner. (I do not want to start a Waymarking vs geocaching discussion here as it is off-topic here, but let me just mention that Waymarking does not offer the options for nice guided tours and hiking tours etc - it's more about categorizing locations and things, like hiking trails.)

 

I still recall very vividly how Erik (at that time the only reviewer for Austria) once has explained to me what he sees as acceptable and what not. His explanations fitted well to the formulation that a cache listing should not have overtones on advertising and promotion. The new policy seems to be a hardliner one and is quite recent and moreover not followed by all reviewers. There are some reviewers that are very strict and others that are very lenient. I recently read that a German reviewer objected against questions in a puzzle cache dealing with a particular non-profit organization. This sort of interpretation eliminates the majority of puzzle caches as well. It will e.g. not any longer be possible to ask questions about a musician, a poet or puzzles based some well-known cryptographic approach like the RSA method etc.

 

I can assure you that geocaching in Austria would hardly exist today if had not been the connection between showing interesting locations and geocaching. None of those who did the pioneering work over here did it with not having the location in mind. With the increasing cache densities in many areas, it is even less acceptable not to have reasonable information on where a cache leads you to. There are certainly a few people who are just interested into visiting arbitrary points on the map, but at least around here they are the clear minority. People here would like to know beforehand whether they are led to e.g. a nice show garden or to a waste bin.

 

It is somehow rather strange that both for waymarks and for the challenges there are no rules about commercial aspects at all even though these activities are directed by Groundspeak, too, and on the geocaching site the rules get stricter and stricter. At the same time neither Waymarking nor the challenges are modified in a manner that would allow to provide a home for many of the ideas that have no home on gc.com according to your statement. PQs. attributes, terrain/diffculty rating, no length restriction for the descriptions and many other things are missing outside of gc.com, but are needed for those things that you would not like to see on gc.com.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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If you want to talk about museums, businesses, tourist locations, restaurants, charities, pubs, lodging and on and on an on about what they have to offer, etc etc... you can do that there. Not here. Listing Requirements and Guidelines say you can't. If you don't like that game that's fine, but that's all the more reason to not bring it here.

 

That is the only answer the question of "Why you can't"... because the LR&G say you can't. I'm not asking you to accept it or agree with it, but don't be surprised when it is used to deny a cache.

 

:cool: CD

 

so you're telling us that all this is because GC wants to promote Waymarking?...it is the only logical explanation and IMO quite a poor tactic

Edited by t4e

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If you want to talk about museums, businesses, tourist locations, restaurants, charities, pubs, lodging and on and on an on about what they have to offer, etc etc... you can do that there. Not here. Listing Requirements and Guidelines say you can't. If you don't like that game that's fine, but that's all the more reason to not bring it here.

 

That is the only answer the question of "Why you can't"... because the LR&G say you can't. I'm not asking you to accept it or agree with it, but don't be surprised when it is used to deny a cache.

 

:cool: CD

 

so you're telling us that all this is because GC wants to promote Waymarking?...it is the only logical explanation and IMO quite a poor tactic

 

I think I missed a post!? :ph34r:

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so you're telling us that all this is because GC wants to promote Waymarking?

 

Whoa... How on earth did you figure that out with only vague descriptors of the service provided?

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so you're telling us that all this is because GC wants to promote Waymarking?

 

Whoa... How on earth did you figure that out with only vague descriptors of the service provided?

 

And how on earth is circumscribing something so obvious any less "promotional" or "advertising" than just saying it?

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We are arguing above my pay grade, can we go back to English?

 

How did you get from this:

 

If you want to talk about museums, businesses, tourist locations, restaurants, charities, pubs, lodging and on and on an on about what they have to offer, etc etc... you can do that there. Not here. Listing Requirements and Guidelines say you can't. If you don't like that game that's fine, but that's all the more reason to not bring it here.

 

That is the only answer the question of "Why you can't"... because the LR&G say you can't. I'm not asking you to accept it or agree with it, but don't be surprised when it is used to deny a cache.

 

To this:

 

so you're telling us that all this is because GC wants to promote Waymarking?...it is the only logical explanation and IMO quite a poor tactic

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so you're telling us that all this is because GC wants to promote Waymarking?

 

Whoa... How on earth did you figure that out with only vague descriptors of the service provided?

 

the Flinstones can answer that, they seem to know a lot about 2 year olds behaviour :anibad:

 

but i know what you're getting at with that and no, you didn't prove anything because its never been about making sense of vague instructions

 

We are arguing above my pay grade, can we go back to English?

 

How did you get from this:

 

If you want to talk about museums, businesses, tourist locations, restaurants, charities, pubs, lodging and on and on an on about what they have to offer, etc etc... you can do that there. Not here. Listing Requirements and Guidelines say you can't. If you don't like that game that's fine, but that's all the more reason to not bring it here.

 

That is the only answer the question of "Why you can't"... because the LR&G say you can't. I'm not asking you to accept it or agree with it, but don't be surprised when it is used to deny a cache.

 

To this:

 

so you're telling us that all this is because GC wants to promote Waymarking?...it is the only logical explanation and IMO quite a poor tactic

 

are you serious?

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We are arguing above my pay grade, can we go back to English?

 

How did you get from this:

 

If you want to talk about museums, businesses, tourist locations, restaurants, charities, pubs, lodging and on and on an on about what they have to offer, etc etc... you can do that there. Not here. Listing Requirements and Guidelines say you can't. If you don't like that game that's fine, but that's all the more reason to not bring it here.

 

That is the only answer the question of "Why you can't"... because the LR&G say you can't. I'm not asking you to accept it or agree with it, but don't be surprised when it is used to deny a cache.

 

To this:

 

so you're telling us that all this is because GC wants to promote Waymarking?...it is the only logical explanation and IMO quite a poor tactic

 

are you serious?

 

Yeah. You really think this is some Machiavellian way to promote another site? That is probably the worst explanation of all the points that have been discussed on this thread. Which is saying a lot!

 

This is starting to feel like a filler episode from the X-files or something.

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So unless there is some actual new content to be raised, I'm going to stick with what it says in the Listing Requirements and Guidelines. I've expressed the facts repeatedly and most people in here seem to understand what I've conveyed. A few seem to want to go around in circles over semantics and their personal preference instead of heeding what has been demonstrated and the alternatives suggested, courses of action to take, etc etc.

 

So to end it off, there is nothing further to discuss unless some new point is raised that is directly related to the current documentation provided by Groundspeak. That is what I use 100% of the time instead of trying to determine what my own personal feeling on the matter are. My player account does that, elsewhere.

 

:cool: CD

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So unless there is some actual new content to be raised, I'm going to stick with what it says in the Listing Requirements and Guidelines. I've expressed the facts repeatedly and most people in here seem to understand what I've conveyed.

 

Those who insisted on the lacking logic are certainly able to understand what you conveyed. That does not mean that it answers their questions. The question for me is not what are the guidelines saying right now, but rather why has the formulation been changed and does not that really make sense and is consistent. I still feel that the sixth rule has been added after the incident in Canada at the request of reviewers being tired of the debate, and that it has been added without of thinking whether it fits to the previous text.

 

The no buried cache rule has been introduced for some very good reasons. During the discussion about challenges and also in this discussion, I rather obtain the feeling that the central element is the reviewers' work and not the activity itself.

 

A few seem to want to go around in circles over semantics and their personal preference instead of heeding what has been demonstrated and the alternatives suggested, courses of action to take, etc etc.

 

I guess that cachers like t4e, dfx, myself and actually all cachers I know personally are intellegent enough to know that a cache description can be written without using any business names. We rather question that the addition of this new requirement is a good idea and ask why it is needed.

There might be people who read rules without trying to understand what they are about and are just obedient. I prefer cachers who question what they are doing. It would not refer to this as going around in cycles over semantics. I'd like to see an argument that the new rule is good for the development of geocaching and not just statements that it is there and cachers have to obey it.

 

Cezanne

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are you serious?

 

Yeah. You really think this is some Machiavellian way to promote another site? That is probably the worst explanation of all the points that have been discussed on this thread. Which is saying a lot!

 

 

perhaps it is in your view, to me so far is the only logical explanation, and it kind of makes sense too given the relatively low interest in Waymarking as opposed to geocaching, until someone can offer a more plausible one...

 

So unless there is some actual new content to be raised, I'm going to stick with what it says in the Listing Requirements and Guidelines. I've expressed the facts repeatedly and most people in here seem to understand what I've conveyed. A few seem to want to go around in circles over semantics and their personal preference instead of heeding what has been demonstrated and the alternatives suggested, courses of action to take, etc etc.

 

So to end it off, there is nothing further to discuss unless some new point is raised that is directly related to the current documentation provided by Groundspeak. That is what I use 100% of the time instead of trying to determine what my own personal feeling on the matter are. My player account does that, elsewhere.

 

:cool: CD

 

most of the people that seem to understand what you conveyed are those that misunderstood the whole issue behind this thread

 

i have enough intelligence,and so do the rest of those that you seem to think don't get your point, to understand what the Listing Requirements and Guidelines say, the difference is those that "understand" your point chose to accept them just because and the rest of us want to understand and get a logical explanation as to what prompted the addition of point 5 and how exactly does saying on a cache listing "go left at Wal Mart" constitutes advertising and even more mind-boggling in point 6 is the fact that you can't mention a commercial product...so technically if i say "use your GPS to project a waypoint" "use the compass to navigate" "use the camera in the cache to take a picture" "use a UV light" etc...i am mentioning a commercial product and that is against the Guidelines...everything is commercial and sometimes to write up a good cache description you do need to make use of certain words...unless the aim is to eventually have blank or skimpy descriptions same as we've come to encourage and accept blank logs, but that is a whole different can of worms and the subject for a different thread

 

lets take this point for example

 

1.It requires the finder to go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

 

so technically any cache placed in park/conservation area that requires an access fee is commercial

 

those listings encourage people to go inside a "business" and pay for a product/service, thus generating revenues to that "business"...how does that compare to my previous example of just saying "turn right at Wal-Mart"? it doesn't ask anyone to go inside Wal-Mart and buy anything...its just a point of reference...how does it compare to saying "the container is a Lock n Lock"...it doesn't ask anyone to go buy that product

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I do know for a fact that a cache was published in Ontario after this thread started with the name of a well known company in the title. The name of the company is repeated in the cache listing and it is very clear to me that it is a company name. The leads me to two conclusions. The reviewer is completely oblivious and rubber stamped the cache without paying any attention to the name or the content of the listing or and exception was made. After being told no way , no how, it ain't going to happen, no exceptions, I have to wonder how this happened?

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I do know for a fact that a cache was published in Ontario after this thread started with the name of a well known company in the title. The name of the company is repeated in the cache listing and it is very clear to me that it is a company name. The leads me to two conclusions. The reviewer is completely oblivious and rubber stamped the cache without paying any attention to the name or the content of the listing or and exception was made. After being told no way , no how, it ain't going to happen, no exceptions, I have to wonder how this happened?

 

its exactly the reason that made me revisit this thread, although i'm sure we're not talking about the same cache, however it only goes to show that our findings are not an isolated incident

 

ok so fine...no witch hunt for caches that where published before this thread was started and contained "commercial" names etc....

 

why did caches get published, containing a business name in the description, a month after the start date of this thread?

 

if its a case of special permission from Groundspeak i suggest such decision be made clear in the "published" log, and the ability to delete such logs by CO taken away, as to avoid any misunderstandings

 

 

Yeah. You really think this is some Machiavellian way to promote another site? That is probably the worst explanation of all the points that have been discussed on this thread. Which is saying a lot!

 

 

and i have one more argument to give you that supports my conclusion....when a listing about a tourist attraction is denied because its commercial what does it imply? what is the name of that sister site that accommodates such listing?

Edited by t4e

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I see no point in this thread continuing further. All points appear to have been raised, addressed and resolved. As such this discussion has ended. Draw whichever conclusions that you wish to.

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