Commercial caches?

[Team Mycroft]

The new ban of "commercial caches" has some unintended consequences, and that ban needs to be reconsidered.

 

To whit: All divable springs in the state of Florida require an entry fee. Be the site state or privately owned. By banning "commercial sites" you have effectively banned ALL diveable sites for caches in the state of Florida.

 

For that matter, any cache located in a dive site has costs. Tanks of air are not free. Does that make it a commercial site? Boat trips out to a dive site in the Bahamas are not free, does that make it commercial?

 

The definition of a commercial site needs to be re-thought here.

 

I bring this up because I planted a pair of very good caches over this past weekend. The owner of the site had no idea that I was going to do that UNTIL I walked in and asked his permission. In fact, he was hesitant about running a "treasure hunt" at first, due to the possiblity of damage to his site.

 

If the owner of the site had started the cache, that's one thing, but that isn't the case here. I have no commercial interest in the site, other than that I use it for an equipment checkout dive several times a year when I have had gear repaired or changed.

[+Markwell]

The ban on commercial caches is not new. It was announced here over a year and a half ago.

 

However, it seems that you're taking issue with a fairly new development in the interpretation of what is "commercial." I believe the current view that Jeremy posted was that if the park required a fee to enter the place that was "for-profit" (Disney theme parks, etc.) then it wouldn't be allowed. Parks that have fees are allowable, in that the money is taken to upkeep the land.

 

Your specific instance sounds like a gray area. Would it be possible to dive to those locations with your own equipment (your own boat/scuba equipment). As far as I know, there's no fee for going into the ocean. Since that would be the case, I'd be VERY surprised if a cache were not allowed.

 

However, if you owned a scuba shop and the coordinates for the cache were at the doorstep of your business, and only by renting equipment from your rental place would I get the coordinates for the cache box - THEN it's commercial.

 

Can you point me to a post by an admin that says just because there's a fee to go into a location, the cache wouldn't be allowed?

 

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

[+erik88l-r]

This particular cache was discussed by the cache approvers. As I recall we compared it to other SCUBA caches. With those others it's implied that you'd have to pay for the dive boat and air fills to get to the site. However entering the site was free, and if you had your own boat and other equipment there was no charge.

 

The cache in question was at a private spring that required a $27 fee. The "cache" also did not fit the requirements of a cache - it was only a pair of tags on stuctures in the springs. A GPS would not be needed to get to the springs, would not help you find the tags. The info on the tag would be provided to the dive shop operator and he'd give you a choice of goodies, as I recall. I'm afraid the cons just seemed to outnumber the pros in this case.

 

erik - geocacing.com admin

[+Renegade Knight]

My take has been much more lax than the admins since the way I see it any cache I place is non-comercial regardless of where I place it at.

 

However their concerns about fee's are valid guidlines. They can be worked with, and with enough 'merit' I'm sure a cache could be approved.

 

Wherever you go there you are.

[iryshe]

Markwell and ~erik~ hit the nail squarely on the head with this one.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location™

[+BrownMule & Jackrabbit]

I hope I don't offend anyone on this but we are seeing more and more people in the forums upset over their cache not being approved. Each time I read their plea to have their cache approved, it is plain to me that some element is so far out of what the game is, that it is not Geocaching. Now I'm all for a little spice but Geocaching as I understand it is the use of a GPS receiver to find a hidden physical

"Geocache" that was placed by someone and the coordinace posted for others to seek. Not go to a place that you can find without a GPSr or find something and then give the posted coordinance as in location-less caches etc. I'm personally for the purist form of the game. There is enough leeway for a little spice in the original form of the game. Just my .02. I don't think Geocaching needs to cater to everyones definition or conjured up thought.

 

_________________________________________________________

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

[+IV_Warrior]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

My take has been much more lax than the admins since the way I see it any cache I place is non-comercial regardless of where I place it at.

 

However their concerns about fee's are valid guidlines. They can be worked with, and with enough 'merit' I'm sure a cache could be approved.

 

Wherever you go there you are.

---

I disagree, if the location is commercial, a cache shouldn't be there. Say I own a for profit park, is the potential cache LESS commercial, if I call and ask YOU to place it there instead of placing one there myself? How are the admins to determine if that's the case, or you decided on your own you wanted to place a cache in my park?

 

Just because you're paranoid DOESN'T mean they're not ALL out to get you.

[+Renegade Knight]

quote:

---

Originally posted by IV_Warrior:

I disagree, if the location is commercial, a cache shouldn't be there. Say I own a for profit park, is the potential cache LESS commercial, if I call and ask YOU to place it there instead of placing one there myself? How are the admins to determine if that's the case, or you decided on your own you wanted to place a cache in my park?

---

 

Valid point but it doesn't matter. There is nothing to prevent them from calling you up and asking you to place a normal cache in a normal area to be stocked with business cards. Or have the final in a multi cache be in a commercial fee to get in place. It's not the admins job to second guess my motive for placing a cache. It doesn't change that my opinion of whats commercial differs a little from the admins. Odds are I won't be barking up that tree anyway. I'm too cheap to pay to place the cache to begin with.

 

Wherever you go there you are.

[+Mopar]

quote:

---

Originally posted by IV_Warrior:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

My take has been much more lax than the admins since the way I see it any cache I place is non-commercial regardless of where I place it at.

 

However their concerns about fee's are valid guidlines. They can be worked with, and with enough 'merit' I'm sure a cache could be approved.

 

Wherever you go there you are.

---

I disagree, if the location is commercial, a cache shouldn't be there. Say I own a for profit park, is the potential cache LESS commercial, if I call and ask YOU to place it there instead of placing one there myself? How are the admins to determine if that's the case, or you decided on your own you wanted to place a cache in my park?

 

Just because you're paranoid _DOESN'T_ mean they're not _ALL_ out to get you.

---

OK, since it came up in the other thread, I'll use it again here for an example. Do you really think Disney has made one penny profit off the caches that are currently in the parks? How many cachers do you REALLY think said "ya know, I have no interest in going to the park, but I'm gonna pay hundreds of dollars for a ticket so I can go hunt the caches there"? I think this whole commercial thing has to boil down to commercial intent, not commercial property.

A cache that has no interest other then getting you inside a retail store is probably commercial. A cache that is in a free city park, but full of demo software and advertising for the hider's company is clearly commercial. A cache in a wildlife refuge that happens to be privately owned is probably no more commercial then a cache in a public refuge that charges an admission. A cache in a large tourist attraction is probably not commercial, people are coming for the attraction, a cache nearby just adds to the tourist's enjoyment.

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

[+Geo-Johnson's]

I'll give my opinion, since no one asked for it.

 

I think if commercial caches were introduced, we would soon become bombarded with low quality caches located at every business around. It would be a free form of advertising. I don't want to search for a cache outside the front window of an insurance office. Nor do I want to end up visiting every Burger King that a geocacher works at. I don't want to visit any plumbing companies, dentists offices or grocery stores.

 

By living in the US, we're already inundated with advertising. There's ads in movies, sporting events, vehicles and buses driving around. When you sit in the restrooms at a restaurant, you get and eye level look at all the pretty ads while you do your business. I don't want to open a cache and find a stack of 50 cents off coupons at the local McDonalds. I get so upset every New Years when the news programs show beautiful fireworks behind Big Ben or the amphitheater in Australia and all the other countries.....only to go back to the US scenes in Times Square where there are no pretty fireworks......only a thousand flashing commercial ads. It's discusting!!

 

Whew! I feel so much better......I'll climb off my Lever2000 for the best parts of your life soap box now. Thank you!

 

Children are natural mimics who act like their parents despite every effort to teach them good manners.

[Team Mycroft]

I will try to answer all the items above.

 

1. No where did I say that the divers could not use their own equipment. In fact, during placement of the tags, I was using tanks rented elsewhere, that I brought with me. Another purpose of the dive that day was to test out recent annual service to part of my gear. So, on that day, neither my buddy, nor myself, had rented ANYTHING from the dive shop. It is nice to know it is there, in case something breaks. It is also nice to know that O2 is on site in case of emergency.

 

2. I examined the 5 existing Scuba Geocache sites before I designed this one. Of the 5 existing sites, 4 of them list the depth of the site at 100 feet. If you know about Scuba, then you know that “Junior Open Water” certification limits depth to 40 feet, and regular “Open Water” limits depth to 60 feet. This means that children under 16 are prevented from using 4 of those 5 sites right off. Current estimates place 80-85% of the diving population as never going past Open Water certification as well. This means that 4 out of 5 sites are blocked from over 80% of the adult diving population. The remaining site is in a lake in Indiana in 10 feet of water, but look, it requires a fee to get into the lake! Not to mention that the cache is described as being inside the wreck of a car. Whoops, another dangerous location! (Entanglement hazards require special training, like wreck penetration.) I placed 1 tag at 20 feet (within “Junior Open Water” diver range) and the other at 66 feet (just into advanced diver range). This means that everyone has an equal chance, including the students of diving that come to this site for class.

 

3. I used tags in the water. Why? This is in consideration of SAFETY! In a spring, the leading cause of death is silt stirred up causing the path back out to become confused. It is also bad manners to do something on purpose to stir up silt and block the vision of other divers. A traditional cache would then have to be placed in someplace where there is no silt. Guess what? There is no such a place. Not in this spring, or any other in Florida! I placed the log in the dive shop, because it would remain dry and not get stolen there. The same prizes are available for everyone, regardless of diving ability. Also, the site was turned down before I was allowed to post the images of the tags on the site. Nor did they ask what was on the tags. Does this mean that virtual caches are no good either?

 

4. Commercial nature of the spring. Gee, so the owner charges money to get into the spring. Let’s examine why. Before the owners of springs in Florida started charging, divers went into the springs for free, and had a good time. However, because no one was checking certification cards at the entrance, some deaths did occur. Naturally enough, lawyers got involved. Because of this, every spring in the state has gone either controlled access by fee (to pay for insurance) or has blocked the way for divers to dive there. I had originally been designing the layout of this cache for a different spring, but at the last minute, my dive buddy asked if we could go to this one instead. The owner had no knowledge of geocaching until I showed up that day. I had originally intended the cache for a different spring! Oh, as for the amount of the fee. This is a pretty standard amount charged by owner maintained springs. I’ve seen higher, but not lower. State springs are lower for 2 reasons. The state insures itself, and you can’t get permission to leave a cache in such a spring. Further, any other spring is actually owned, and using it is trespassing, which is against geocache rules.

 

5. No co-ordinates in the water. When they make a GPS that works underwater, I will go get you new co-ordinates. As it was, I was too tired to go down the steps at the end of the day to get the co-ordinates on the floating dock, so I used the picnic table above it as a landmark. The dive shop “door” is across the grounds past the rest rooms and changing area on the other side of the parking area.

 

6. The only response I got back from those “considering” this cache was a flat “it is commercial”. No answers to my explanations, no questions about why I did something the way I did, no nothing. This is not acceptable.

 

7. As for promoting the site “commercially”. The only mention of the site was the name of the spring. Said name can be found on a map. The only mention of the “dive shop” was as the location of the logbook as being in the ”diveshop”. No mention of rental gear was made. One picnic table was referenced, but only as a landmark. The owner was never mentioned by name, though he was referred to as the source of the statement “If you are digging into anything, you are looking in the wrong place”. The concern there was again for both safety, and not stirring up the silt for other divers. I went out of my way to NOT describe it as a commercial place.

 

Mycroft

Certified Rescue Diver