Time restraint before posting a first cache

[+rtyrie]

I'm not sure if this has been suggested before, but what about a restriction that a member has too have found ONE cache before hiding? This would demonstrate:

 

- the member has used the website to obtain the necessary information to locate the cache

- the member has used some device to locate the cache

- the member has used the website to log their find

 

In my region it seems that the most problematic caches are those that are placed with cachers with zero finds.

[+L0ne.R]

I think having to wait three months is absolutely ridiculous. Why not encourage new members rather than making them feel unwelcome and treading on some elitist toes? I'm not even two month in to the sport and have 65 finds. What about people have been caching for months or years with someone who get their own account?

 

Besides, people learn from doing. As you get better you will always look back and realize you could have done things different or better.

 

If a new cacher who can't commit to the game for 3 months before hiding she/he probably isn't going to be a committed cache owner. Yes, people learn by doing, so a little geocaching before hiding a cache should be a good thing.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Lone R

[AZcachemeister]

Caching is coming increasingly under the scrutiny of land managers.

If we do noting to educate new cachers about how and where to hide caches, and how and what to do (and not do) when seeking caches we are probably going to loose a lot of caching territory.

 

I have recently learned that Pima County Parks has been keeping a logbook of their own...chronicling the damage caused by inconsiderate (and perhaps unknowing) cachers. Caching is now prohibited in at least one of the (large) parks controlled by them.

Similarly, the Coronado National Forest has left a few active caches in wilderness areas controlled by them specifically to document that cachers will go off-trail, (in certain months when off-trail travel is prohibited) in order to PROVE LEGALLY that cachers don't follow the rules.

 

Local organizations can go a long way to minimize the problem, but not all newbees will go out and join the local organization.

[+rav_bunneh]

If a new cacher who can't commit to the game for 3 months before hiding she/he probably isn't going to be a committed cache owner. Yes, people learn by doing, so a little geocaching before hiding a cache should be a good thing.

 

Or so you assume. All it does is belittle new users and punish them for a few bad apples. I don't know where your three months number has come from other than out of thin air. It is a complete and wild assumption that if you make someone wait 3 months they will magically be a better cache hider. It is false logic. It falsely assumes the person will be active. It falsely assumes the caches they find will be a good role-model to them.

 

I would dare say that of all the people geocaching some could have hidden and maintained a geocache well from day one. I also imagine there are a few that might never really get the hang of it. But because we are all different there is a huge spectrum of people at all points in-between.

 

It is still my opinion that forcing every new member to wait 3 months is a laughable solution and would do nothing more than limit growth in geocaching and serve to alienate new members. However, from what I've seen from a lot of older members, that is exactly what they want -- not better cachers. They just want the geocaching to be relatively unknown rather than popular.

 

To offer a solution of my own I'll recommend two. 1) Have Geocaching make a few instructional videos dedicated to making caches and hiding caches of various difficulty and terrain ratings. 2) Automatically recommend, based on zip code, 5 - 10 of the closest and most favorited geocaches to new users since new users can't sort by favorite. Though I'd make neither of these two options requirements.

Edited April 27, 2011 by rav_bunneh

[+Chokecherry]

Caching is coming increasingly under the scrutiny of land managers.

If we do noting to educate new cachers about how and where to hide caches, and how and what to do (and not do) when seeking caches we are probably going to loose a lot of caching territory.

 

I have recently learned that Pima County Parks has been keeping a logbook of their own...chronicling the damage caused by inconsiderate (and perhaps unknowing) cachers. Caching is now prohibited in at least one of the (large) parks controlled by them.

Similarly, the Coronado National Forest has left a few active caches in wilderness areas controlled by them specifically to document that cachers will go off-trail, (in certain months when off-trail travel is prohibited) in order to PROVE LEGALLY that cachers don't follow the rules.

 

Local organizations can go a long way to minimize the problem, but not all newbees will go out and join the local organization.

 

Sounds to me this is more of a problem with finders than hiders... should we limit finding to only those after 3 months?

[+L0ne.R]

I don't know where your three months number has come from other than out of thin air. It is a complete and wild assumption that if you make someone wait 3 months they will magically be a better cache hider.

 

It's not about expecting someone to be a better hider after 3 months (but it probably wouldn't make them a worse hider if they got some caching experience under their belt), it's about weeding out the fly-by-nighters, the independent kids (no parental supervision), the teens that want to place one for a lark and mess with people, the kids who don't really want to be a CO but get a geography assignment that requires them to plant one, the person who just discovered the geocaching app and wants to plant a cache right away without understanding what geocaching is.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Lone R

[+L0ne.R]

1) Have Geocaching make a few instructional videos dedicated to making caches and hiding caches of various difficulty and terrain ratings.

 

There's already a good video section on the site, the link is right there on the left navigation bar on the geocaching site. One of the videos is "Basics of Hiding a Cache". My guess is if an uncommitted newbie won't read the guidelines they won't be looking for instructional videos either.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Lone R

[+L0ne.R]

Oops.Double post.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Lone R

[+t4e]

I think having to wait three months is absolutely ridiculous. Why not encourage new members rather than making them feel unwelcome and treading on some elitist toes?

 

here's an example why, irresponsible and hard headed

one that checked the boxes that has read the guidelines yet placed a "phantom" cache on PRIVATE PROPERTY and plays the victim even when people are trying to help

 

Undercover

 

i can certainly dig up more if you wish, seen enough in my time geocaching

 

any activity has a learning curve, heck there's even community forums where you don't get full access to all the benefits until you've been around and active and basically showing commitment, why should geocaching be any different?

Edited April 27, 2011 by t4e

[+Lieblweb]

My husband and I used to do a lot of offroading (4WD, etc). As officers of our club, we used to hold "Wheelin 101" trips. This would be primarily for newbies on easy trails to teach them how to drive and be responsible on the trails. Similar to geocaching, there's a lot of etiquette, safety, responsibility that goes along with it. We made sure we had a 'safety' briefing and lecture prior to going out.

 

So, my thoughts on this for Geocaching....

 

Does anyone hold local events specifically for newbies? I don't know how you could organize that.... perhaps grab a bunch of local experienced geocachers together to organize it. Example: Place 25 temporary caches inside a large 'legal' area (say for instance, a park) and somehow organize it that they find ALL the caches, give them points, bla bla bla.... You get the point.

 

It'd be a HUGE amount of work but with planning and volunteers could pull something off. I'd volunteer if there was one near me.

 

I'm not sure how you'd advertise for something like this. The last thing you'd want it hundreds of people to show up.

 

Just a thought....

(or does something like this already occur?)

[+L0ne.R]

I think having to wait three months is absolutely ridiculous. Why not encourage new members rather than making them feel unwelcome and treading on some elitist toes?

 

here's an example why, irresponsible and hard headed

one that checked the boxes that has read the guidelines yet placed a "phantom" cache on PRIVATE PROPERTY and plays the victim even when people are trying to help

 

Undercover

 

i can certainly dig up more if you wish, seen enough in my time geocaching

 

any activity has a learning curve, heck there's even community forums where you don't get full access to all the benefits until you've been around and active and basically showing commitment, why should geocaching be any different?

 

I've got another example:

 

New boxer, found 2 caches on Sep 9, planted 4 on Oct 4.

The caches showed signs of trouble from the get go:

• an airline travel nylon pouch, not water resistant
• a large dollar store container crammed into a stump that required great force to extricate - lid cracked soon after planting,
• tin can piggy bank (rusted up quickly) placed in full view of the back of houses

She/he did no maintenance. After someone reported a soaked cache (the nylon pouch), the CO responded by disabling the cache and in the note field typed a "." - that's it, just a period. After numerous reports about the cracked lid, 2 months after the 1st report, the CO said "I will be replacing the container once final exams are done; thanks for your patience." 3 months more, still no replacement, then she/he left a note "Moving to Korea; can no longer maintain cache." And then she/he was gone. Left all 4 caches for the reviewer to archive and locals to clean up.

[+JBnW]

Just a question to continue the conversation. For all who've been around a while, how many finds did you have after three months, and how mauch variety did you see?

 

Me? GSAK sez I had 36 total finds: 10 trads, 22 multis, 3 virts, and 1 EC. I'd have to admit that 500+ finds later, this wasn't very much variety.

[+rav_bunneh]

It's not about expecting someone to be a better hider after 3 months (but it probably wouldn't make them a worse hider if they got some caching experience under their belt), it's about weeding out the fly-by-nighters, the independent kids (no parental supervision), the teens that want to place one for a lark and mess with people, the kids who don't really want to be a CO but get a geography assignment that requires them to plant one, the person who just discovered the geocaching app and wants to plant a cache right away without understanding what geocaching is.

 

So I was totally correct. This is not about making better cachers. It is your personal agenda for weeding out the cachers you personally do not like.

[+L0ne.R]

It's not about expecting someone to be a better hider after 3 months (but it probably wouldn't make them a worse hider if they got some caching experience under their belt), it's about weeding out the fly-by-nighters, the independent kids (no parental supervision), the teens that want to place one for a lark and mess with people, the kids who don't really want to be a CO but get a geography assignment that requires them to plant one, the person who just discovered the geocaching app and wants to plant a cache right away without understanding what geocaching is.

 

So I was totally correct. This is not about making better cachers. It is your personal agenda for weeding out the cachers you personally do not like.

 

Did you read the Undercover cache page and logs (t43 posted a link)? Did the child CO enjoy his newbie hiding experience? Did he learn from the sage advice given by more seasoned cachers? GS probably would have done him a favour if he had to wait 3 months and get to know a little more about geocaching before he hid that phantom cache on private property. He disappeared from the scene after that fiasco. The experience was bad for the kid and bad for the local caching community.

[+L0ne.R]

Just a question to continue the conversation. For all who've been around a while, how many finds did you have after three months, and how mauch variety did you see?

 

Me? GSAK sez I had 36 total finds: 10 trads, 22 multis, 3 virts, and 1 EC. I'd have to admit that 500+ finds later, this wasn't very much variety.

 

I started Chrismas Eve 2001 - found a regular size rubbermaid container 2/2 in the woods

By the end of March 2002 I found:

• regular size rubbermaid container 1/1 in a woodlot
• an ammo can 2.5/1.5 on a bird sanctuary spit
• 1 gallon plastic twist top jar 1.5/2 in the woods
• a small size 1/1 in a sculpture park
• regular size rubbermaid container 1.5/2 in the woods
• regular size rubbermaid container 2/1 in the boulders by a lake
• ammo can 2/3 in the woods
• a virtual 1/1.5 at a survey marker designed to test your gps for accuracy

In total 9 caches in 3 months in early 2002 - back when you had to travel long distances to get a cache because there weren't many around.

[+L0ne.R]

It's not about expecting someone to be a better hider after 3 months (but it probably wouldn't make them a worse hider if they got some caching experience under their belt), it's about weeding out the fly-by-nighters, the independent kids (no parental supervision), the teens that want to place one for a lark and mess with people, the kids who don't really want to be a CO but get a geography assignment that requires them to plant one, the person who just discovered the geocaching app and wants to plant a cache right away without understanding what geocaching is.

 

So I was totally correct. This is not about making better cachers. It is your personal agenda for weeding out the cachers you personally do not like.

 

Did you read the Undercover cache page and logs (t43 posted a link)?

 

Sorry rav_b, that sentence reads a bit harsh. But really, read the Undercover logs. If GS could prevent cache experiences like that one by having a 3 month wait period, I think it would be a good thing for newbie COs and for the caching community.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Lone R

[+GeoGeeBee]

It's not about expecting someone to be a better hider after 3 months (but it probably wouldn't make them a worse hider if they got some caching experience under their belt), it's about weeding out the fly-by-nighters, the independent kids (no parental supervision), the teens that want to place one for a lark and mess with people, the kids who don't really want to be a CO but get a geography assignment that requires them to plant one, the person who just discovered the geocaching app and wants to plant a cache right away without understanding what geocaching is.

 

So I was totally correct. This is not about making better cachers. It is your personal agenda for weeding out the cachers you personally do not like.

 

Did you read the Undercover cache page and logs (t43 posted a link)?

 

Sorry rav_b, that sentence reads a bit harsh. But really, read the Undercover logs. If GS could prevent cache experiences like that one by having a 3 month wait period, I think it would be a good thing for newbie COs and for the caching community.

What if I found a cache placed by a newbie with really great logs? Could I then make the argument that if you have your way, you'll be preventing those great experiences from happening?

 

Stopping newbies from placing caches isn't going to solve anything. Stopping idiots from placing caches would be better; let me know when you figure out how to filter for idiots, though.

[+L0ne.R]

My husband and I used to do a lot of offroading (4WD, etc). As officers of our club, we used to hold "Wheelin 101" trips. This would be primarily for newbies on easy trails to teach them how to drive and be responsible on the trails. Similar to geocaching, there's a lot of etiquette, safety, responsibility that goes along with it. We made sure we had a 'safety' briefing and lecture prior to going out.

 

So, my thoughts on this for Geocaching....

 

Does anyone hold local events specifically for newbies? I don't know how you could organize that.... perhaps grab a bunch of local experienced geocachers together to organize it. Example: Place 25 temporary caches inside a large 'legal' area (say for instance, a park) and somehow organize it that they find ALL the caches, give them points, bla bla bla.... You get the point.

 

It'd be a HUGE amount of work but with planning and volunteers could pull something off. I'd volunteer if there was one near me.

 

I'm not sure how you'd advertise for something like this. The last thing you'd want it hundreds of people to show up.

 

Just a thought....

(or does something like this already occur?)

 

In some areas there are caching events just about every month. If you subscribe to the Geocaching Weekly Newsletter you get a list of all the caching events and it's always a very long list. I don't recall restrictions on any events I've ever attended. Newbies are always welcome. Problem is not everyone likes the hustle and bustle of an event. Plus many new cachers/COs are children - some of those children/young teens plant caches without parental supervision. I don't think they're independent enough to get to an event on their own.

[+L0ne.R]

What if I found a cache placed by a newbie with really great logs? Could I then make the argument that if you have your way, you'll be preventing those great experiences from happening?

 

The great experiences would still happen, just 3 months after the newbie registers.

[+M 5]

There is no good way to filter out the bad apples, but it is common fact and very obvious that rookies in anything have a learning curve. Why should geocaching be any different. Some sort of restriction would be good. I'm personally not sure what the best way to accomlish it, but it is a valid concern.

[knowschad]

Lots of good comments here. I think before someone hides a cache they should have found a couple of them just to see how it's done. I think I had about 12 caches under my belt before I hid my first one. My son just hid his first one today and he only has 18 finds. But then again he has been with me on most of my finds and some of my hides. I have been mentoring him for some time now. He just got his own account in Feb of this year. He did a great job with his hide, and he looks forward to hiding even more. I think a lot of it has to do with the training they have had. But this is just my opinion.

There was an area in Nevada up until recently where a newbie could have logged 1000 finds, and still thought that the ideal cache was a plastic film canister on the ground at the base of a sign.

[+rav_bunneh]

I'm not going to change your mind. If you want to think that censoring every newbie and every future newbie because of a few bad caches... so be it. Think that. My account is less than 2 months old; why not next beg Groundspeak to also gag newbies from talking on the forums too. Clearly, as you are pointing out, people like me who are new are too stupid to place a geocache. I guess you better delete all my caches and delete all my forum posts.

 

Great way to foster a "community" with your totalitarian efforts to block new users from placing a cache.

 

What you are actually doing here is antagonizing me and other new users. Get over yourself. I don't care that you started in 2001 or that you could only find 30 caches in 3 months. I've found well over 60 in 2 months -- which by your logic would make me twice a capable as you were at 3 months.

[knowschad]

It's a game! Let everyone play and learn from the experience. I've found caches placed by "experienced" 'cachers' without regard to many of the GS guidelines.

Without taking a stance pro or con on the main topic, I must add that "It's a game!" is rarely a sufficient argument when it comes to discussing the viability of a geocaching rule or guideline. Football is a game. Bowling is a game. Horseshoes is a game. Solitaire is a game. They all have of rules.

[knowschad]

I'm not going to change your mind. If you want to think that censoring every newbie and every future newbie because of a few bad caches... so be it. Think that. My account is less than 2 months old; why not next beg Groundspeak to also gag newbies from talking on the forums too. Clearly, as you are pointing out, people like me who are new are too stupid to place a geocache. I guess you better delete all my caches and delete all my forum posts.

 

Great way to foster a "community" with your totalitarian efforts to block new users from placing a cache.

 

What you are actually doing here is antagonizing me and other new users. Get over yourself. I don't care that you started in 2001 or that you could only find 30 caches in 3 months. I've found well over 60 in 2 months -- which by your logic would make me twice a capable as you were at 3 months.

 

Whew!!! I really think that you are taking this far too personally. First, you should be aware that Groundspeak really does not form its policies from what we say here in the forums, so don't entertain any notions that this thread really matters.

 

Second, I don't hear anybody saying that "people like me who are new are too stupid to place a geocache." I hear some people saying that the majority of poorly executed hides have been hidden by new users. It does, by necessity, take somebody with some experience finding caches to arrive at this conclusion.

[+Don_J]

It's not about expecting someone to be a better hider after 3 months (but it probably wouldn't make them a worse hider if they got some caching experience under their belt), it's about weeding out the fly-by-nighters, the independent kids (no parental supervision), the teens that want to place one for a lark and mess with people, the kids who don't really want to be a CO but get a geography assignment that requires them to plant one, the person who just discovered the geocaching app and wants to plant a cache right away without understanding what geocaching is.

 

So I was totally correct. This is not about making better cachers. It is your personal agenda for weeding out the cachers you personally do not like.

 

Did you read the Undercover cache page and logs (t43 posted a link)?

 

Sorry rav_b, that sentence reads a bit harsh. But really, read the Undercover logs. If GS could prevent cache experiences like that one by having a 3 month wait period, I think it would be a good thing for newbie COs and for the caching community.

 

Three months is way too harsh. If you haven't figured this out after a week or two, you never will. I know people that have been doing this for years that still can't manage to hide a cache that doesn't have a wet log as soon as the dew point hits.

[+Don_J]

I'm not going to change your mind. If you want to think that censoring every newbie and every future newbie because of a few bad caches... so be it. Think that. My account is less than 2 months old; why not next beg Groundspeak to also gag newbies from talking on the forums too. Clearly, as you are pointing out, people like me who are new are too stupid to place a geocache. I guess you better delete all my caches and delete all my forum posts.

 

Great way to foster a "community" with your totalitarian efforts to block new users from placing a cache.

 

What you are actually doing here is antagonizing me and other new users. Get over yourself. I don't care that you started in 2001 or that you could only find 30 caches in 3 months. I've found well over 60 in 2 months -- which by your logic would make me twice a capable as you were at 3 months.

 

Whew!!! I really think that you are taking this far too personally. First, you should be aware that Groundspeak really does not form its policies from what we say here in the forums, so don't entertain any notions that this thread really matters.

 

Second, I don't hear anybody saying that "people like me who are new are too stupid to place a geocache." I hear some people saying that the majority of poorly executed hides have been hidden by new users. It does, by necessity, take somebody with some experience finding caches to arrive at this conclusion.

 

I'd have to add that almost all problem caches that I see are placed by those that are not old enough to drive a car, and most often do not even have a GPSr.

[+L0ne.R]

Three months is way too harsh. If you haven't figured this out after a week or two, you never will. I know people that have been doing this for years that still can't manage to hide a cache that doesn't have a wet log as soon as the dew point hits.

 

I suggested a 3 month wait period to discourage transient new COs. Those who are in town to attend college or university and don't plan on maintaining the cache when they're off for the summer months or after they graduate or can't get around to it once the exams and papers are due. Also high school class assignments are less likely to happen if the kids can't plant one for 3 months, by the end of the wait period the geography course will be almost over.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Lone R

[+L0ne.R]

I'd have to add that almost all problem caches that I see are placed by those that are not old enough to drive a car, and most often do not even have a GPSr.

 

That's been my observation too.

[+sheddybetty]

I've been at this less than 18 months. I've found 300 some and have yet to hide a cache. I very much feel a sense on owing a debt to the community and I just plain want to hide and own caches. But. I want mine to be of a certain quality. I've seen different kinds of caches and I have a sense of what appeals to me and what doesn't. Today I just turned away from one. I parked next to an abandoned road, walked past a couch, two piles of vomit, a broken gin bottle, and through a bunch of weeds and thorns. Then I turned around.

 

In my first year plus, I've found caches on electrical boxes, fire hydrants, in front yards. I've been first to find only to find the log was signed multiple times prior to the publication of the cache. But I've found very cool caches and I intend to keep looking for cool caches.

 

I read through the suggestions about what criteria are appropriate for a first-time cache owner. Nowhere did I see anything about know what you like about caching, know what you want your cache to represent, know what kind of experience you want the cache finders to have. And I don't know that those would be appropriate "conditions" for a first hide, nor do I advocate any additional rules. I don't know how many times I read the guidelines for hiding a cache. Enough to pass a quiz, certainly. If the current rules are routinely violated, additional rules probably would be as well.

 

I was talking with an experienced cacher once. I don't remember my question but I remember her response: "It all depends on how you want to play the game."

[knowschad]

I've been at this less than 18 months. I've found 300 some and have yet to hide a cache. I very much feel a sense on owing a debt to the community and I just plain want to hide and own caches. But. I want mine to be of a certain quality. I've seen different kinds of caches and I have a sense of what appeals to me and what doesn't. Today I just turned away from one. I parked next to an abandoned road, walked past a couch, two piles of vomit, a broken gin bottle, and through a bunch of weeds and thorns. Then I turned around.

 

In my first year plus, I've found caches on electrical boxes, fire hydrants, in front yards. I've been first to find only to find the log was signed multiple times prior to the publication of the cache. But I've found very cool caches and I intend to keep looking for cool caches.

 

I read through the suggestions about what criteria are appropriate for a first-time cache owner. Nowhere did I see anything about know what you like about caching, know what you want your cache to represent, know what kind of experience you want the cache finders to have. And I don't know that those would be appropriate "conditions" for a first hide, nor do I advocate any additional rules. I don't know how many times I read the guidelines for hiding a cache. Enough to pass a quiz, certainly. If the current rules are routinely violated, additional rules probably would be as well.

 

I was talking with an experienced cacher once. I don't remember my question but I remember her response: "It all depends on how you want to play the game."

I have a hunch that you are going to be a very well respected hider in your area, with an outlook like that. Best of luck with it!!

[+WRASTRO]

I've been at this less than 18 months. I've found 300 some and have yet to hide a cache. I very much feel a sense on owing a debt to the community and I just plain want to hide and own caches. But. I want mine to be of a certain quality. I've seen different kinds of caches and I have a sense of what appeals to me and what doesn't. Today I just turned away from one. I parked next to an abandoned road, walked past a couch, two piles of vomit, a broken gin bottle, and through a bunch of weeds and thorns. Then I turned around.

 

In my first year plus, I've found caches on electrical boxes, fire hydrants, in front yards. I've been first to find only to find the log was signed multiple times prior to the publication of the cache. But I've found very cool caches and I intend to keep looking for cool caches.

 

I read through the suggestions about what criteria are appropriate for a first-time cache owner. Nowhere did I see anything about know what you like about caching, know what you want your cache to represent, know what kind of experience you want the cache finders to have. And I don't know that those would be appropriate "conditions" for a first hide, nor do I advocate any additional rules. I don't know how many times I read the guidelines for hiding a cache. Enough to pass a quiz, certainly. If the current rules are routinely violated, additional rules probably would be as well.

 

I was talking with an experienced cacher once. I don't remember my question but I remember her response: "It all depends on how you want to play the game."

I have a hunch that you are going to be a very well respected hider in your area, with an outlook like that. Best of luck with it!!

I agree with the other dog. Very well put together post! Thanks for sharing it here.