should this bug be allowed in the top ten?

1k · November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by CB-GPSERS:
...If the general consensus think I should wack this Tbug, I will...

In your opinion, how many voters and what period of time will it take to constitute a consensus?

It's been one week since this poll was published. Forty-one votes running 3 to 1 in favor of whacking it at this time.

Waiting for your response...

Worldtraveler

November 8, 2002

There are no names listed with the poll; it's flawed.

BTW, the owner is probably deer hunting. It's the Minnesota thing to do.

Beaver Dam Booty

November 8, 2002

I suppose I should chime in here and add my two cents--There is starting to be too many "Geo-Police" out there!!! Last time I checked, it was still a free country, and thus CB-GPSers can do whatever he wants with his travel bug. If you don't like it, TS!!! For those of you that like to control other people and make more new rules to make everyone else conform to your ideals, go away--we don't want you anymore. Freedom For The People!!!

Think Globally, Act Locally

6.5k · November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by kingboreas:
There are no names listed with the poll; it's flawed.

What names would the poll need?

1k · November 8, 2002

I find it interesting that you feel compelled to express your opinion on this topic...

quote:
Originally posted by 15Tango:
I suppose I should chime in here and add my two cents--There is starting to be too many "Geo-Police" out there!!!

...but apparently would rather not afford anyone with a differing opinion the same opportunity...

quote:
...If you don't like it, TS!!!...go away--we don't want you anymore...

I'm also curious who is included in your "we" reference. Are you the official spokesperson for some group? GEM perhaps, or Geocaching.com?

Another of your statements also caught my attention:

quote:
...Last time I checked, it was still a free country...

To which country are you referring? Geocaching.com (the owner of these forums and originator of the Travel Bugs) is not a "country"; but if you want to use that analogy, the form of "government" could probably best be described as a benevolent dictatorship that frequently solicits input from its "citizens" on these forums when setting policy.

And finally, your statement:

quote:
...CB-GPSers can do whatever he wants with his travel bug...

While that statement is not entirely accurate (remember the benevolent dictatorship), he is the one who volunteered to "wack" his travel bug if there was a consensus to do so. My only previous post on this thread was to inform him of the poll (in case he had missed it) and to seek to understand his definition of "consensus".

I care a great deal about geocaching, as I suspect you also do; so though it may meet with your disapproval, I won't "go away", and I will continue to express my opinions on these forums.

Respectfully,

Worldtraveler

November 8, 2002

quote:
What names would the poll need?

The names of each person who voted. How many votes are actual geocachers, and how many are the same person using all seven AOL screen names, a hotmail name, etc. etc ?

Maybe none, but we can't be sure, can we?

6.5k · November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by kingboreas:

quote:
What names would the poll need?

The names of each person who voted. How many votes are actual geocachers, and how many are the same person using all seven AOL screen names, a hotmail name, etc. etc ?

Maybe none, but we can't be sure, can we?

But the same can be said for any poll taken in the forums... Should we discount all of them?

November 8, 2002

The answer is simple. If the MN Geo Club Bug makes it to the "big time" and any cash is won...we will decline the money. Having fun is what this is all about.

How many of you complainers belong to a local Geo Cache club? How many of you have been to a Geo picnic?

Whine about something important. Let the rest of us have our own fun.

Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups.

November 9, 2002

Considering the top 10 is ranked by the number of accounts finding the bug, it seems this particular bug is only in the list because of a flaw in the way the list is made. If the code is fixed to only count finds then this won't be a problem. Since the bug page lists "I just found out that if you post a note to a tbug with it's # it counts as a find log." it seems the owner knows what the rule is and is taking advantage of an exploit in the code. IMO, it should be removed.

3.1k · November 9, 2002

It seems to me that this is the travel bug equivalent of a locationless cache. Geocache without the cache, travel bug without the travel. Locationless caches are accepted as a legitimate part of the game but are despised by many because of a perceived violation of intent and legitimacy of the finds. So is this.

This is just something that occurred to me. It isn't in support of either side, just food for thought. Your reaction to it will depend on your feelings about locationless caches.

"It doesn't take a nucular scientist to pronounce 'foilage'." --Marge Simpson

November 9, 2002

The names of each person who voted. How many votes are actual geocachers, and how many are the same person using all seven AOL screen names, a hotmail name, etc. etc ?

Maybe none, but we can't be sure, can we?

Results (45 votes counted so far):

Wack

34/76%

not Wack

11/24%

I was wondering where all the no wack votes where comming from

6.5k · November 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Scott Johnson:
How many of you complainers belong to a local Geo Cache club? How many of you have been to a Geo picnic?

two questions:

1. am i one of the complainers? (if so i lost my ID badge can i get a new one?, the gaurd at the gate said he wont let me in again unless i get another one )

2. what does either of your questions have to do with the bug of discussion?

November 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Scott Johnson:
The answer is simple. If the MN Geo Club Bug makes it to the "big time" and any cash is won...we will decline the money. Having fun is what this is all about.

How many of you complainers belong to a local Geo Cache club? How many of you have been to a Geo picnic?

Whine about something important. Let the rest of us have our own fun.

Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups.

You wanted some publicity with your Tbug scam you get it you don't agree with it and call us a bunch of whiners

Let me be the first to Thank you you have do alot for Geocaching here in Minnesota

Well I gotta go do the Minnesota thing kill a deer, whine and I think I will put a cache in my back yard and find it 1000 times you know to promote geocaching here in Minnesota

November 10, 2002

my 2 cents:

Glisher is making a federal case of this just because THE WAY THE WEBSITE WORKS. When you "Post a Note" on a travel bug, it counds as a bug found for you and a finder for the TBug. CB-GPSR's didn't make it work that way, Jeremy did.

He complains that this bug is "cheating". But Glisher has stated that he doesn't log his finds on the website, that's why he only registered a user name this week. (I would likr to point out that many of the MNGEO's who have logged the TBug are Charter memebers that have PAID to belong to this website., Who has more stake in the rules? A paying member or a troll?)

And, since Glisher doesn't log his finds on the website, why should he care about a TBug? Personally, If I ever caught up with some of the people who move travel bugs around without logging them. Those are the type of people who make others reluctant to let their travel bugs go.

Frankly, I remember not to long ago, when the TB top 10 list was based on Mileage. Of course, Jeremy ended up changing that because there were too many people who were hoaxing the milage on their TB's by moving them around the world virtually.

In the end, it boils down to this: for the most part, this is an entirely legitimate Travel Bug under the current rules. For the most part, everyone who has logged it has come into physical contact travel bug itself, with the exception of a log or two that was generated by a few overzealous cachers (You can't blame the TB owner for that, that could happen to ay legitimate TB).

The spawned TB's are physical objects that were originally attached to the main TB when it was released, and each has its' own unique ID above and beyond the base TB tracking number. The tags are not being attached to other bug by the CB-GPSR's but rather by the cachers who 'found' them and who wish to spread the knowledge of the MNGEO website in the Minnesota area.

I actually think that 4 of the other Top 10 bugs are what I would rather call 'Cache Components' instead of Travel Bugs: Key to the Nutria & the Wyle A,B,C & D Operators. Their purpose is not really to Travel as much as to be in a variable location to increase the difficulty and challenge in finding a particular cache. Kind of like making a multi-cache using other peoples caches. If you really want to whack this TB those bugs should be knocked out too.

OK, OK, I'm getting off my soapbox now... I didn't intend to get going so far on this one, but I was the one who made the observation to Markwell that 'posting a note' seemed to be the most legitimate way to tally a TB that you 'find' but leave in a cache because you are not in a position to help further it's goal. (Wonder Woman)

TB Stats Discussion Thread

I mentioned this at a MNGEO event and may have given the CB-GPSR's the idea for this bug in the first place...

November 10, 2002

As for Team Dragon, you might want to check out this "Travel Bug" Team Dragon's Mascott. I seem to recall someone complaining to Centris that for one of her TB's she had logged 17 of the 23 moves on the bug....

And I think the other point that has been missed is that it is explicity stated in the TB description that once the initial note tags are depleted that this bug is/was going to be released into the wild. I would guess that the CB-GPSR's are either a) waiting for a resolution to this discussion, because out of how many x thousand geocachers there out there, a poll with less than 100 replies is statistically insignificant, gone hunting, or c) spending time with their 3 week old daughter.

I know I'm not CCCooper Agency... Sometimes I find it difficult to move a bug on for a month or so when, as a parent, my free time just doesn't exist.

November 10, 2002

Here is the definition of a travel bug:

quote:
Q. What is a Travel Bug?

A. Simply put, a Travel Bug is a new form of hitchhiker you can track on Geocaching.com. A hitchhiker is basically an item that is carried from cache to cache (or person to person) and you can follow its progress online.

All of the bugs you've mentioned are valid travel bugs according to the definition Jeremy established. They travel. They get a lot of hits because there is a reason for people to seek them out. I'm unsure why you bring up my personal travel bug when it will never get near the list.

I stick by my comment that I believe the owner is deliberately exploiting the reporting process. His own comment of I just found out that if you post a note to a tbug with it's # it counts as a find log. shows he knows how the count is supposed to be done.

November 10, 2002

Just an observation--I have hit over 200 caches in the Twin Cities area, and I don't recall seeing "Glisher" in any of the physical log books. If s/he hit his/her 100 caches after I did, I apologize for bringing this up, but if not, I think we just found a troll. Also the TB site says travel bugs travel from cache to cache or from person to person--doesn't the MNGEO bug meet the second criteria, in a way?

Think Globally, Act Locally

6.5k · November 10, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Team VE:
...I would guess that the CB-GPSR's are either _a)_ waiting for a resolution to this discussion, because out of how many x thousand geocachers there out there, a poll with less than 100 replies is statistically insignificant,...

you're right, but if we go with the "what a few out of thousands think" doesnt matter, how can you prove that those thousands that havent vote DO approve of this bug?

so we're stuck with those who DO come to the forums, and more of them think this bug should be "wacked" than dont.

November 11, 2002

quote:
BTW, the owner is probably deer hunting. It's the Minnesota thing to do.

You're right, that was an asinine statement. Thank you for opening my eyes.

November 11, 2002

Tango said:

quote:
Just an observation--I have hit over 200 caches in the Twin Cities area, and I don't recall seeing "Glisher" in any of the physical log books.

I have placed over 100 caches in Minnesota, and I don't do regular cache maintenance, but when I check some logs, or remove a cache to be archived, I've never seen glisher.

November 11, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by welch:

quote:
Originally posted by Team VE:
...I would guess that the CB-GPSR's are either _a)_ waiting for a resolution to this discussion, because out of how many x thousand geocachers there out there, a poll with less than 100 replies is statistically insignificant,...

you're right, but if we go with the "what a few out of thousands think" doesnt matter, how can you prove that those thousands that havent vote DO approve of this bug?

so we're stuck with those who DO come to the forums, and more of them think this bug should be "wacked" than dont.

Welsh's point is well taken that of the people who have chosen to vote in the poll are at the moment weighted in the favor of those who object.

However, here's the numbers we perhaps should be looking at.

At the moment, the Poll thread shows 756 views...

Of those viewers,

35 Voted Whack

12 Voted No Whack

Approx 709 said "I don't care enough to vote"

The reason I said approximately, is of course, there will be multiple countings, etc, etc. so the total number of views will be greater than the number of actual cachers who looked at the thread, unless there is some filter on the "Views" total... Jeremy would have to answer that one.

The point is that for the most part, it seems that the peoples mandate has been

"Who Cares?"

It's a lot easier to get people fired up to vote "No, I don't like that" than to get people who don't care to actually say "Why should we do anything?" The real number we should be looking at is the number of people who have looked at the poll vs. the number of people who have cared enough to say that the bug should be reworked... That number seems to be around 5% against and 95% don't care or say leave it alone.

As for Team Dragon's response

quote:
Quote:Q. What is a Travel Bug?

A. Simply put, a Travel Bug is a new form of hitchhiker you can track on Geocaching.com. A hitchhiker is basically an item that is carried from cache to cache (or person to person) and you can follow its progress online.

So, the only objection based on the "Definition" of a Travel bug is the fact that the bug has not yet moved to a second cache?

Does that mean that is CB-GPSR's passes the bug through another cache in Minnesota, as is their STATED intention on the TB page, that the bug is just as valid as Team Dragon's 84,000+ mile

Tabitha?

I think what we REALLY should have is a way for each individual user to pick what statistic they want to view their "Top 10" by. For me, I'd rather see bugs ranked by their milage, and filter out the ones that havn't left their masters (Such as Tabitha) than by this arbitrary "Found By" count. I've been ignoring that list ever since Key to the Nutria & the Wyle Coyote clones took hold of the top half of the list. To me none of those are travel bugs, but rather cache components in an area that I'm not going to be in anytime soon.

I havn't made an issue of it because, frankly, I think there are more important things out there on the website than to set Jeremy & co. on reprogramming TB stats.

November 26, 2002

I have reconsidered.

I really think that CB and the Minnesota group are doing something really terrific with their travel bug. I just wish that I had thought of the idea.

If anyone comes across one of the tags for the bug, please post the number here so that anyone who wants to can log a note to the bug and help the Minnesota group stay in the top 10. Let's all help these guys become #1.

Thanks!

November 26, 2002

This is wrong look at the #'s they can defend this all they want it is nothing more than a fraud it's not clever it's CHEATING if you all want to lower this sport and agree with it what ever find a post-it note log it in read the RULES we don't want people that will explot PURE sport into somthing else.

Wow what a great club we have here in Minnesota

What a bunch of LOSER'S vote on all your presedents and what ever

Thank You for what you have done for Geocaching here in Minnesota with state parks and 49 of 50 states disagree with what you do with mngeo bug

keep it up Minnesota will soon shine

November 26, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by glisher:
This is wrong look at the #'s they can defend this all they want it is nothing more than a fraud it's not clever it's CHEATING if you all want to lower this sport and agree with it what ever find a post-it note log it in read the RULES we don't want people that will explot PURE sport into somthing else.

Wow what a great club we have here in Minnesota

What a bunch of LOSER'S vote on all your presedents and what ever

Thank You for what you have done for Geocaching here in Minnesota with state parks and 49 of 50 states disagree with what you do with mngeo bug

keep it up Minnesota we will soon shine

November 27, 2002

Hey Glisher, before you go flying off the handle, maybe you should check out the bug, and perhaps you might want to read some of the other forum threads like This.

If you can come up the with supposed "RULE" that the bug is supposed to be breaking, PLEASE let us know since nobody else has been able to point one out for the past two weeks.

Otherwise, get a life.

Maybe you could even start logging your supposed finds on the website since you care so much about statistics. After all, logging finds on the website IS the idea of the PURE SPORT since that's what you're so hot on my trollish friend.

So, shut up until you've got something better to say for a {L}user with 0 finds, 0 placed, 0 travel bug owned, 0 travel bugs found and 0 contributed to this activity.

November 27, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by mrplug:
If anyone comes across one of the tags for the bug, please post the number here so that anyone who wants to can log a note to the bug and help the Minnesota group stay in the top 10.

1. Before you open your mouth, check your facts. The bug is no longer associated with the group. Unfortunately CB-GPSr's can't do much else about it since the PHYSICAL bug tags are already in circulation. It will be interesting to watch how they spread out though. I wonder how far they'll get.

2. You want to sink to the level that you ACCUSED other people of being at? The only person who has called for a general dissemination of the number in a method other than encountering the travel bug(lets) has been you

----------------------------

"The number you have reached is imaginary, please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again"

November 27, 2002

I dedicate my 125th cache to him. Please check it out:

Cache #125, by kingboreas

November 27, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by kingboreas:
I dedicate my 125th cache to him. Please check it out:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=44046

Thanks

9.4k · November 28, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by kingboreas:
I dedicate my 125th cache to him. Please check it out:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=44046

Could you do us all a favor and resize the pictures, please? Better yet, make links to the pictures instead of displaying them on the cache page. I'd rather not print out pictures that have nothing to do with finding the cache.

November 28, 2002

Are you one of those that sign the log book - but can't be bothered to take the time to log in online? Frustrating for cache owners! And for the cachers that follow you in this find. Do you not want to log what you take and leave? The intention of this is not ONLY to find the cache - but to log it - for all concerned with the cache! Ignore the #'s if you wish - BUT LOG YOUR FINDS!

6.5k · November 28, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by cachecrazies:
Are you one of those that sign the log book - but can't be bothered to take the time to log in online? Frustrating for cache owners! And for the cachers that follow you in this find. Do you not want to log what you take and leave? The intention of this is not ONLY to find the cache - but to log it - for all concerned with the cache! Ignore the #'s if you wish - BUT LOG YOUR FINDS!

November 29, 2002

Welch, I believe that CacheCrazies is talking to glisher.

6.5k · November 29, 2002

VE, i think cachecrazies post makes no sense, mainly because they are just ranting at nothing/noone....

November 30, 2002

Has anyone noticed that almost all of the people that are defending the TB are from Minnesota? Everybody's probably already noticed it and may have mentioned it, but I thought I would put this in here.

Fathers and Sisters I have none but this man's father is none other than me, Tony De Angelo. I know, it doesn't make any sense!

December 5, 2002

Thanks for pointing that out.

December 5, 2002

Well, since you dragged this back to the top KB, here's what I thought....

"Hmmm... Would that be where the people with the most direct, firsthand knowledge of the TB in question be?"

But then, there's also glisher.... Our very own Minnesota Troll

6.5k · December 5, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Team VE:
Well, since you dragged this back to the top KB, here's what I thought....

"Hmmm... Would that be where the people with the most direct, firsthand knowledge of the TB in question be?"

Anyone who can find their way to the bug page?

December 5, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by kingboreas:
I dedicate my 125th cache to him. Please check it out:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=44046

Thank you all a cache in my honor the "Minnesota Troll" wow my 15 seconds where up a long time ago.

I still think the MGEO is wrong and the owner must feel the same way otherwise why did he change it.

I agree there are no rules but most who participate in the sport disagree with the original concept of this bug I am not going to go over the reasons again but if your only defense is name-calling.

I suggest that you should get a life and find some other sport to exploit for you own purposes.

There is also no a rule that I log my finds if I found a plundered or damage cache I would contact the owner, and all caches I have found have been found and logged by another after I found it.

[This message was edited by glisher on December 05, 2002 at 10:02 PM.]

December 6, 2002

There is also no a rule that I log my finds if I found a plundered or damage cache I would contact the owner, and all caches I have found have been found and logged by another after I found it.

You are correct about that. I searched and it's not mentioned.

I tried to edit that post, glisher, but I'd waited too long. Sorry

December 6, 2002

1)"... participate in the sport"

Ok, so the slogan calls it a sport now, but really it's a GAME. Supposedly a freindly game. Not one with refrees and geo-cops on the sidelines. If you want that, go rogaining. Oh, that's right. Rogaining is for "butt-sliding" down hills in state parks where geocaching isn't allowed.

2)"... if your only defense is name-calling."

Read the rest of the thread again. There's more than name calling.

You're free to have your opinion.

My opinion is you still seem awfully interested in statistics and rankings for someone who has never logged their finds on the website or ever logged a travel bug.

-------------------------------------------

If you would like to call this a truce and like to amicably join a group of Minnesota Geocachers, please visit www.mngca.org

[This message was edited by Team VE on December 06, 2002 at 09:16 AM.]

should this bug be allowed in the top ten?

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