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define DESTROYED


kayakbird

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FROM Groundspeak FAQ's

 

"Destroyed" means that you know that the benchmark cannot be in its original location because the structure it was on is gone. Don't log as destroyed unless you are absolutely 100% sure. If there is any doubt at all, it's best to refrain from using this option and let someone else have a chance at finding it. Remember, you can always seek advice from more experienced hunters by posting a message, which may enable you to increase your chances of success!

 

Logging as "Destroyed" a survey disk whose position is now under the recently-added lane of a paved road (the disk may survive under the pavement; should be logged as "Didn't find it").

 

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FROM NGS MARK RECOVERY ENTRY PAGE

Note: For destroyed marks do one of the following:

 

1) If you have found the actual marker separated from its setting, you can report the point as destroyed. To do so please send the report on the destroyed mark as an email to Deb Brown (Deb.Brown@noaa.gov). If you send this email, please do not submit the current form, Deb Brown will submit the report for you. In addition, please submit proof of the mark's destruction via actual disk, rubbing, photo, or digital picture (preferred) to Deb Brown:

 

Deb Brown, N/NGS143

National Geodetic Survey, NOAA

1315 East West Highway

Silver Spring, MD 20910

 

2) If you did not find the actual marker, then you should enter notes concerning evidence of its possible destruction as text records and select "Not recovered, not found" as the condition of mark.

 

MY BOLD kayakbird

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>When a benchmark is destroyed, the benchmark was either taken out by the NGS or really destroyed.

 

Not true.

 

Perhaps a clearer distinction is needed between logging standards on GC versus logging to NGS.

 

For NGS and professional users, Destroyed is the status below Poor, and means that the position originally marked by the monument (either horizontal or vertical according to the data sheet) can no longer be determined to a useful accuracy. This can happen with a beautiful bronze disk still in its original neighborhood but significantly moved. Photographic proof of its movement will usually result in an official Destroyed classification on the data sheet.

 

In many cases it appears that the disk has been removed from the area. One example is when a road has been extensively regraded so that there is no way you can believe it survived. Then, without absolute proof, the proper log is "Not Found, presumed destroyed because ..."

 

For logging on GC, standards are looser. I am comfortable with someone logging Found on a disk that NGS would call destroyed, so long as the person found the proper disk near the proper location. I might log it as destroyed on GC but won't fight the battle to make them see it the NGS way.

 

I will pick a fight when somebody logs a disk with the wrong stamping, or an intersection station that cannot be the right age to be on the data sheet, or those "portable benchmarks" that somebody carries to caching events and everybody who sees it (out of its proper location) logs it Found. That even breaks the rules for caches, but it doesn't seem to stop the practice.

 

I sometimes log Destroyed on GC when I'm convinced beyond doubt that the mark has to be gone, even if I can't prove it to NGS.

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or those "portable benchmarks" that somebody carries to caching events and everybody who sees it (out of its proper location) logs it Found.

 

I have never even thought about something like that happening......but it doesn't surprise me. Thanks for the heads up, Bill.

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I have had three marks accepted by Deb as destroyed that were set atop rock ledges which were later quarried away or blasted to bits for development. Photos of the current edge of the quarry with HH2 coordinates indicating that the mark would now be hanging in in thin air sufficed to confirm the "destruction" (which in these cases was probably literal).

 

MY2763-Destroyed-Area.jpg

 

Then there was one described as being set in the abutment of a RR overpass in which the RR had been decommissioned and the overpass had been converted to an at grade crossing (obviously, without an abutment). An image of the intersection sufficed.

 

Then there was this one, which used to be a mark in the roof of a 1910 fire control building at Ft. Strong on Long Island in Boston Harbor. The mark located the center of the pylon for the fire control range finder. This photo of the pylon, under the now-destroyed roof, did the trick.

 

MY4484-Destroyed.jpg

 

I've also had some easier ones, like a photo of an intact disk still firmly cemented in a corner of a concrete base that had obviously been knocked off by a snowplow or digging machine and was now lying akimbo nearby.

 

These days I generally don't file Destroyed reports with NGS, due to the fact that historical information then becomes inaccessible to the ordinary person searching the database (who does not know how to "include destroyed" in his/her query).

 

--Paul

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Wow, those people really don't get the point of a benchmark. It's great that it might get them interested in recovering them too, but I'm afraid it would lead to more people taking them as trophies. It would have made more sense for the current owner of the mark to make it a discover only travel bug.

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Well, I have definitely learned something new today. Thanks for the education, Bill.

 

I agree with Glorkar, it would make a good travel bug......................but not a traveling/portable benchmark.

 

Oh Well, thankfully it didn't have a lot of NGS recoveries submitted for it from the event attendees.

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....... to make it a discover only travel bug.

 

That wouldn't make any difference since the people would still see it as a chance to get the benchmark icon on their profile page. They would see the benchmark and see that it was listed on GC.com and log it.

 

That's just the way it is, when you get smilies for finding things. It is about the numbers to a lot of people.

 

John

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The BM has no reference to the PID on it. The owner has to be telling them or have it on an info card. If the PID wasn't shared, the benchmark couldn't be logged, simple as that. Obviously the people 'recovering' the disk would not even be able to do a nearest benchmark search.

IDK, this just really bothers me for some reason.

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Of the thousands and thousands of NGS monuments, one gets logged like a travel bug, so what.

Doesn't bother me at all, given that the catcher is exposing others on the importance of benchmarks.

 

~ Mitch ~

The best comparison that I can come up with is geocoins. A person has one and shows it off to a bunch of people, then tells them they can be found in caches. (While not telling them about how to log them.) The people newly acquainted with geocoins now take and keep the coins whenever they find them. But it's okay, because there are more people interested in geocoins now.

 

I know it's not quite the same, but being taught to do something wrong is never a good thing. Especially when the bad practice is propagated. Geocaching is largely a word of mouth game/sport/whatever. If people start going around saying that you don't have to pay attention to what the datasheet says for benchmarks, it could spiral out of control in fairly short order.

 

Again, just my two cents.

*breathe*

*stretch*

All is well.

I can't stop it from happening, so I'll just have to accept that it exists.

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Obviously the people 'recovering' the disk would not even be able to do a nearest benchmark search.

IDK, this just really bothers me for some reason.

 

If you go to this page Advanced search you simply enter the designation (the stamping on the disk) for the benchmark, select designation and hit enter.

 

If it is in the database it will probably show it.

 

John

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... but being taught to do something wrong is never a good thing.

I can appreciate your point of view, but those folks who are logging this benchmark can see it was obtained legally when logging the find on the CG.com page.

In fact, several cachers expressed a great appreciation for seeing a survey mark out of it's normal setting and the story behind this disk.

4leafclover has taken a 'destroyed' mark and makes it into a 'teachable' moment for a lot of cachers.

 

12/3/2005 4agers found [NGS Benchmark] JZ0826

We go through Cinci every so often, so it was pretty cool to log a benchmark from Cleveland. Talked with 4leaf for a bit about how this was recovered... good story. And to think that the survey office said it was cool.

 

10/9/2005 Neos2 found [NGS Benchmark] JZ0826

Cool idea. Good thing this is the geocaching side of benchmarking, or I would feel really silly claiming this as a find! I have found a few benchmarks, but this is the first time I have claimed a moving one. Way fun! Thanks for sharing the chance to log this now-destroyed one.

 

1/30/2005 GeoLibrarian found [NGS Benchmark] JZ0826

N 39° 56.170 W 082° 47.335

Cool. My first benchmark. I found a couple others, but did not log them. I was not sure what it was all about. Thanks! Interesting circumstances around this one!

Back on topic, from the Benchmark Hunting Wiki:

"The NGS prefers the more optimistic "Not Found" unless you have direct first-hand evidence that the mark is completely obliterated or its entire mounting has been uprooted from the ground. Getting a mark listed as Destroyed in the NGS database requires submission of evidence (like a photo) and an e-mail."

~ Mitch ~

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Leaving aside the question of a USPSQD log's reliability, much depends on the extent to which a bridge has been rebuilt. We have seen bridges whose abutments were said to have disks in their top surfaces, but whose beds had been widened until they were flush with the outer face of the abutment. Is it a new abutment, or is it the old one with the bridge bed resting on the disk site? It is possible to find out, but sometimes, lacking onsite evidence, that means visiting the DOT offices in the locality where you're searching. If you live around there, you can make it happen, though it can take some time. If you're just passing through, you might have to work online or on the phone, and that is not always rewarding.

 

Your specific question is about photographic proof, but this example demonstrates the occasional, nay, frequent difficulty of taking a definitive picture.

 

Cheers,

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