Destroying vegetation to access a cache?

[astralsled]

I placed my first cache recently and I've noticed that a few of the posted finds mention things like "bushwhacking" and "clearing a path" to get to the cache. The latest finder mentions how it was much easier for him than for the previous cachers because someone had cleared a path through the overgrowth. Now, this cache is not in a forest or a rural area, it's actually in the middle of a city, just in an out-of-the-way area. It's hidden near an overgrown staircase between two little-used streets. The vegetation is all weeds and the city would remove it if they were interested in maintaining the staircase, so it's not anything that is supposed to be preserved, but part of the reason I placed the cache there was because I thought it was an interesting example of nature reclaiming urban architecture. I think it's kind of disrespectful for people to go stomping through it, flattening or pulling out plants to get to the cache. That's not what I intended when I placed it. The cache can be accessed without destroying any plants and if you think about the clues you should not have to go stomping through the overgrowth to find it. Also, the overgrowth and possible thorns/poison ivy are clearly mentioned in the description and the terrain is rated appropriately. When I went to check on the cache after the latest log, I found that some of the plants that had been growing nearest to the cache location were gone and the eye was now immediately drawn to the area where the cache was hidden.

 

Is this an acceptable practice in geocaching because the plants are weeds, or are these cachers being irresponsible? Do I as the cache owner have responsibility for the damage although I in no way encouraged it, and it is not necessary to access the cache? I'm not sure what the opinion is on this.

 

Thanks!

[+dorqie]

this has been bugging me too.

it strikes me as a lack of common sense.

example, a cache has been recently published. The cache is not in plain sight. The cachers take to wandering over a flower bed to find it.

Now, if going thru the flower bed was required to find the cache, would one not expect the CO to have left a trail when they placed said cache, in the act of hiding it?

[+GrateBear]

What do you mean by "hidden near an overgrown staircase"? If looking for it requires making use of the staircase, I would expect the weeds to be trampled down or pulled out. After all, stairs aren't meant to be weed displays. I have seen some caches that require walking thru an area that is planted with shrubs and has mulch put down--those I don't feel are appropriate. Need a bit more info to take a position on this one.

[astralsled]

What do you mean by "hidden near an overgrown staircase"? If looking for it requires making use of the staircase, I would expect the weeds to be trampled down or pulled out. After all, stairs aren't meant to be weed displays. I have seen some caches that require walking thru an area that is planted with shrubs and has mulch put down--those I don't feel are appropriate. Need a bit more info to take a position on this one.

 

The staircase is going down the side of a hill, connecting two streets (very common in this city.) There are not actually plants growing ON the staircase, just on either side of it, and some of these are very large plants that hang over/cover the staircase. In order to access the cache you have to duck under the railing and go onto the ground beside the staircase. It's the plants on this ground that I am talking about. Apparently some people are just walking around the general area whacking/flattening plants in some kind of "brute force" method to finding the cache. I don't want to ruin the cache for anyone who might be local by saying exactly where it is, but it is not necessary to destroy any plants, and it is not located in the large overgrown area on the opposite side of the stairs. You actually only have to take 1 or 2 steps away from the stairs.

[+JL_HSTRE]

If a cache is placed in a location that is heavily overgrown and would temp cachers to bushwack, but no bushwacking is actually necessary it is a good idea to state this in the cache description. I've seen some that essentially say "If you're bushwacking to get this you're going about it the hard/wrong way."

[+DragonflyTotem]

I have to say that this one bugs me also. I've had to pull one cache of mine because of folks just ripping through things for no reason (even when it was clearly stated that they didn't need to). I know that I have walked away from some finds simply because from what I could see it would require me to tear through some bushes to find the cache and I just don't think that you should do that. And I've eliminated potential hide locations simply because I was concerned that some would be too rough on the area. It seems that sometimes folks are just too focused on getting the find as quickly as possible so they can then move on to the next find.

[+L0ne.R]

If a cache is placed in a location that is heavily overgrown and would temp cachers to bushwack, but no bushwacking is actually necessary it is a good idea to state this in the cache description. I've seen some that essentially say "If you're bushwacking to get this you're going about it the hard/wrong way."

 

This is good advice. You might want to add what you said in your last post to your cache description:

It is not necessary to destroy any plants, and it is not located in the large overgrown area on the opposite side of the stairs. You actually only have to take 1 or 2 steps away from the stairs.

[+BulldogBlitz]

this is why a weedeater is an important tool to carry in the cache-mo-bile

[knowschad]

If I'm reading you right, weeds are getting trampled in an urban setting because you placed a cache there. If (and I do mean "IF") I'm picturing this area right, it is probably already full of Burger King paper cups, empty 1quart plastic beer bottles, and much, much worse. If my visual of the site is even close to correct, then I wonder why this would be a problem. On the other hand, if this happens to be a pristine little urban oasis that is getting trampled because you placed a geocache there, then you may want to consider the wisdom of placing a geocache there. You can't control others.

[+geodarts]

this is why a weedeater is an important tool to carry in the cache-mo-bile

 

Or machetes.

 

Despite your cache description, some people will not read it unless they have problems finding the cache or until they go online to log it. Combine that with a margin of error, that could be increased around buildings. Then once a geotrail is established people will be tempted to look there. If people ate tempted to bushwhack they probably will. Who can resist a good temptation.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Erickson

[astralsled]

If a cache is placed in a location that is heavily overgrown and would temp cachers to bushwack, but no bushwacking is actually necessary it is a good idea to state this in the cache description. I've seen some that essentially say "If you're bushwacking to get this you're going about it the hard/wrong way."

 

This is good advice. You might want to add what you said in your last post to your cache description:

It is not necessary to destroy any plants, and it is not located in the large overgrown area on the opposite side of the stairs. You actually only have to take 1 or 2 steps away from the stairs.

 

I may have to do this. I was hoping not to be obvious about the location because I wanted people to have the pleasure of finding it for themselves, but I didn't anticipate people being so destructive.

 

If I'm reading you right, weeds are getting trampled in an urban setting because you placed a cache there. If (and I do mean "IF") I'm picturing this area right, it is probably already full of Burger King paper cups, empty 1quart plastic beer bottles, and much, much worse. If my visual of the site is even close to correct, then I wonder why this would be a problem. On the other hand, if this happens to be a pristine little urban oasis that is getting trampled because you placed a geocache there, then you may want to consider the wisdom of placing a geocache there. You can't control others.

 

It is not full of trash, nor is it an "urban oasis." Like I said this is in an out-of-the-way area, between a dead-end street and another street which leads meanderingly into a small neighborhood and is not a direct route to anywhere. There were a few cigarette butts on the steps and a couple of Coke cans that I picked up but other than that there was no/little trash. This may be unusual in other cities (or maybe not, I don't know) but my city has infastructure built for many more people than actually live here so there are a lot of underused/overgrown/"abandoned" areas that I find very interesting. This general area was also affected by the installation of a bus-only highway in the 80s which split up neighborhoods and caused a lot of weird dead-ends and "forgotten" places. The dead-end street is residential and the street above it is mostly empty until much further down-- there's no reason for anyone to be loitering and throwing trash on the stairs (which barely anyone uses, since there's little reason to be walking around this area unless you live there.)

[astralsled]

This is what I am thinking about adding to the cache description:

 

Please be respectful of the vegetation in the area. They may be weeds, but they have claimed this unused part of the city as their habitat and there is no reason to destroy or maim them. It is not neccesary to "bushwhack" to access this cache; you may have to push some plants aside or step through a small amount of overgrowth but you will not need to flatten or destroy any plant life. This cache is NOT located in the large overgrown lot to the south of the coordinates.

 

Do you think this is appropriate? I don't want to "tell people what to do" but I don't feel comfortable with people wrecking the area to find my cache.

[knowschad]

This is what I am thinking about adding to the cache description:

 

Please be respectful of the vegetation in the area. They may be weeds, but they have claimed this unused part of the city as their habitat and there is no reason to destroy or maim them. It is not neccesary to "bushwhack" to access this cache; you may have to push some plants aside or step through a small amount of overgrowth but you will not need to flatten or destroy any plant life. This cache is NOT located in the large overgrown lot to the south of the coordinates.

 

Do you think this is appropriate? I don't want to "tell people what to do" but I don't feel comfortable with people wrecking the area to find my cache.

I would not have any issue with that wording. I don't know if the type of people that would cause problems with stop causing problems because of that, but it can't hurt.

 

On the other hand, remember that those weeds have already reclaimed the area once, and will do it again as soon as allowed to.

[4wheelin_fool]

This is what I am thinking about adding to the cache description:

 

Please be respectful of the vegetation in the area. They may be weeds, but they have claimed this unused part of the city as their habitat and there is no reason to destroy or maim them. It is not neccesary to "bushwhack" to access this cache; you may have to push some plants aside or step through a small amount of overgrowth but you will not need to flatten or destroy any plant life. This cache is NOT located in the large overgrown lot to the south of the coordinates.

 

Do you think this is appropriate? I don't want to "tell people what to do" but I don't feel comfortable with people wrecking the area to find my cache.

 

Write in the hint field exactly where the cache is so they don't have to fumble around the area searching for it.

[+redsox_mark]

The wording is fine, but note weeds tend to flatten easily. If cachers need to search around a weeded area, the weeds will get flattened just from them walking around. I found one yesterday near me; I was 4th to find, the cache was placed 1 month ago; the other cachers who have found it are all very considerate/responsible ones. But I could easily find GZ from where they were standing looking for the cache (in tall weeds).

[+coggins]

I think I'm going to have to add "weedhugger" to my lexicon. If you really don't what the area to get trampled, don't post the co-ords to send people there to search. If you want to have people experience the stairs, make a multi and post the bottom of the stairs in an obvious place and have the final at the top of the staircase in another obvious place. Nothing to trample that way.

[Luckless]

When I place a cache I try to think through all the things that can go wrong. Sometimes I learn by experience. Just archived a cache beause people were bushwackng through a big pile of ground glass instead of following the trail -which I assumed they would do.

When a person comes to the cache area they are going to wonder around (and around and around in circles )following their GPS. That will tramp down the area.

I hid a cache in the spring. You could walk right to the area. Came back later in the fall to check on it and found the grass and weeds had grown up to shoulder height. I could have used a machete to get to it. People are going to leave a trail- no other way to get to that cache except making a path through the weeds.

[+dorqie]

I'm about to blatently hijack this thread... I make no appologies...

 

I have a cache placed in a park with lots of native plants and wildflowers

The cach is simply sitting on the ground, not covered by anything (it's camoed well) and can be reached without stepping off the trail.

In an ftf race, a whole lot of vegitation was destroyed in searching for the cache, and I'm now watching it like a hawk, and if things don't improve I will pull the cache.

My beef is that if I had placed it in a wildflower bed, there would have been no way I would have been able to do it without leaving a trail of flat flowers behind me, therefore one can assume that apon arrival at GZ, since nothing is disturbed, I wasn't there, and if I wasn't there, neither is my cache. I don't see why people can't figure that out.

[drewmm]

I'm about to blatently hijack this thread... I make no appologies...

 

I have a cache placed in a park with lots of native plants and wildflowers

The cach is simply sitting on the ground, not covered by anything (it's camoed well) and can be reached without stepping off the trail.

In an ftf race, a whole lot of vegitation was destroyed in searching for the cache, and I'm now watching it like a hawk, and if things don't improve I will pull the cache.

My beef is that if I had placed it in a wildflower bed, there would have been no way I would have been able to do it without leaving a trail of flat flowers behind me, therefore one can assume that apon arrival at GZ, since nothing is disturbed, I wasn't there, and if I wasn't there, neither is my cache. I don't see why people can't figure that out.

 

Because they think you might have been stealthy?

 

If there are sensitive areas right by GZ that you want cachers to specifically avoid, you should really mention that in the description of the cache.

[drewmm]

Please disregard.

Edited June 4, 2010 by drewmm

[drewmm]

Please disregard.

Edited June 4, 2010 by drewmm

[+dorqie]

I'm about to blatently hijack this thread... I make no appologies...

 

I have a cache placed in a park with lots of native plants and wildflowers

The cach is simply sitting on the ground, not covered by anything (it's camoed well) and can be reached without stepping off the trail.

In an ftf race, a whole lot of vegitation was destroyed in searching for the cache, and I'm now watching it like a hawk, and if things don't improve I will pull the cache.

My beef is that if I had placed it in a wildflower bed, there would have been no way I would have been able to do it without leaving a trail of flat flowers behind me, therefore one can assume that apon arrival at GZ, since nothing is disturbed, I wasn't there, and if I wasn't there, neither is my cache. I don't see why people can't figure that out.

 

Because they think you might have been stealthy?

 

If there are sensitive areas right by GZ that you want cachers to specifically avoid, you should really mention that in the description of the cache.

I did.

but I guess in the FTF race nobody really cared.

[Wallydraigle]

From the latest log entry :"Gps led me to a certain area, but DNF anything except trash. This would be a beautiful and wonderful historical street if people from the area would clean it up and maintain it..." Sounds like a trashy vacant area that could use a good weeding. I don't see how pulling weeds would be disrespectful, but if gardening hurts your feelings then I guess it's time to archive.

[astralsled]

From the latest log entry :"Gps led me to a certain area, but DNF anything except trash. This would be a beautiful and wonderful historical street if people from the area would clean it up and maintain it..." Sounds like a trashy vacant area that could use a good weeding. I don't see how pulling weeds would be disrespectful, but if gardening hurts your feelings then I guess it's time to archive.

 

All I can say is that it's not a "trashy vacant lot", but people will believe what they want to without ever having seen the site. You can go by it in Google streetview and see that it is just a lot overgrown with weeds and there is no visible trash. (At the actual site I saw a couple pieces of trash, but less than you would see walking down a normal city street. In no way would I consider it trashy, dangerous, or gross. I was just there a couple days ago so I doubt the newest cacher saw anything different than I did.) In my opinion it is beautiful how it is, an example of nature reclaiming the environment when it is unused by humans. Your idea of beautiful may be a well-manicured garden, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean that I should archive my cache instead of placing a request for cachers to leave the weeds alone. It's not "gardening" if there's no garden...

 

Anyway I think the solution is to post the paragraph I wrote up, and thanks everyone for their opinions on this.

 

EDIT: To address the latest log on my cache, it's not really an issue of the residents not wanting to maintain the staircase but it's the fact that the staircase is no longer necessary or useful. This is a low pedestrian traffic area and there is a connecting alleyway a couple blocks down that most people would use instead of the stairs. I was interested to learn about the history of the staircase and I'm glad that the cacher shared it on the page-- I didn't know that the staircase was once for the train passengers. It's great to discover little bits of history. However, to that cacher the staircase would be more beautiful if it was maintained as it must have been in those days; to me, it is beautiful now.

Edited June 5, 2010 by astralsled

[DannyCaffeine]

Flattened plants and geo trails happen.

 

Deliberately tearing up greenery does not need to.

[Luckless]

oops

Edited June 5, 2010 by Luckless

[+humboldt flier]

Got to tell you that containers hidden in a thicket of ivy tick me off ... rip up all ivy plants, pour concrete and paint it green would be fine with me. ( tongue in cheek ) That would eliminate trampled ivy.

 

Containers commoed with ivy placed in ivy Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr,

Edited June 5, 2010 by humboldt flier

[+humboldt flier]

This is what I am thinking about adding to the cache description:

 

Please be respectful of the vegetation in the area. They may be weeds, but they have claimed this unused part of the city as their habitat and there is no reason to destroy or maim them. It is not neccesary to "bushwhack" to access this cache; you may have to push some plants aside or step through a small amount of overgrowth but you will not need to flatten or destroy any plant life. This cache is NOT located in the large overgrown lot to the south of the coordinates.

 

Do you think this is appropriate? I don't want to "tell people what to do" but I don't feel comfortable with people wrecking the area to find my cache.

 

Write in the hint field exactly where the cache is so they don't have to fumble around the area searching for it.

Here, here. I second that

[Luckless]

I'm about to blatently hijack this thread... I make no appologies...

 

I have a cache placed in a park with lots of native plants and wildflowers

The cach is simply sitting on the ground, not covered by anything (it's camoed well) and can be reached without stepping off the trail.

In an ftf race, a whole lot of vegitation was destroyed in searching for the cache, and I'm now watching it like a hawk, and if things don't improve I will pull the cache.

My beef is that if I had placed it in a wildflower bed, there would have been no way I would have been able to do it without leaving a trail of flat flowers behind me, therefore one can assume that apon arrival at GZ, since nothing is disturbed, I wasn't there, and if I wasn't there, neither is my cache. I don't see why people can't figure that out.

 

Because they think you might have been stealthy?

 

If there are sensitive areas right by GZ that you want cachers to specifically avoid, you should really mention that in the description of the cache.

I did.

but I guess in the FTF race nobody really cared.

 

I had a similar cache- next to a garden that was well mulched. Cache was tucked under a stair next to the mulch. Guess people thought I might have hidden it under the mulch. Mulch was scattered everywhere when I went to check on a needs maintenance for the cache. Cache was gone- perhaps disgusted grounds crew took it. Anyway, it was a bad hide. Won't be doing that again. Will keep caches at a distance from gardens. Just need to realize when I hide a cache that people will search the area. The less obvious the hide the more they will search.

[+WRASTRO]

Any time you place a cache in an area that may be sensitive for any reason you need to consider what the effects of others searching for the cache may be. If you really do not want cachers venturing into the landscaping or the weeds you need to give detailed instructions on how to locate and retrieve the cache. Even then not all cachers will read the cache page before the hunt.

 

It is the hider's responsibility to place the hide in an appropriate manner for the area and then provide sufficient information to allow cachers to search without violating anyone's sense of environmental right or wrong.

[+Chokecherry]

From the latest log entry :"Gps led me to a certain area, but DNF anything except trash. This would be a beautiful and wonderful historical street if people from the area would clean it up and maintain it..." Sounds like a trashy vacant area that could use a good weeding. I don't see how pulling weeds would be disrespectful, but if gardening hurts your feelings then I guess it's time to archive.

 

All I can say is that it's not a "trashy vacant lot", but people will believe what they want to without ever having seen the site. You can go by it in Google streetview and see that it is just a lot overgrown with weeds and there is no visible trash. (At the actual site I saw a couple pieces of trash, but less than you would see walking down a normal city street. In no way would I consider it trashy, dangerous, or gross. I was just there a couple days ago so I doubt the newest cacher saw anything different than I did.) In my opinion it is beautiful how it is, an example of nature reclaiming the environment when it is unused by humans. Your idea of beautiful may be a well-manicured garden, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean that I should archive my cache instead of placing a request for cachers to leave the weeds alone. It's not "gardening" if there's no garden...

 

Anyway I think the solution is to post the paragraph I wrote up, and thanks everyone for their opinions on this.

 

EDIT: To address the latest log on my cache, it's not really an issue of the residents not wanting to maintain the staircase but it's the fact that the staircase is no longer necessary or useful. This is a low pedestrian traffic area and there is a connecting alleyway a couple blocks down that most people would use instead of the stairs. I was interested to learn about the history of the staircase and I'm glad that the cacher shared it on the page-- I didn't know that the staircase was once for the train passengers. It's great to discover little bits of history. However, to that cacher the staircase would be more beautiful if it was maintained as it must have been in those days; to me, it is beautiful now.

 

We have a lot of abandoned communities up here. Some are maintained as tourist attractions and others are left to go back to earth. I prefer to visit the ones being reclaimed by nature. You'll probably always have trouble with people digging around and flattening the vegetation around there especially as it grows thicker. I don't know the exact situation but in my cache hunting I will shift vegetation out of the way before I reach my hand into something.

[+DragonsWest]

I've seen geocachers encourage tromping all over the plants to get the cache, kill them if people feel up to it.

 

The plant in question is African Ice Plant, an invader species.

 

I just picked up a couple of caches this evening where the stuff is so thick the native flora is completely crowded out, which in turn crowds out the local fauna.

 

[+geodarts]

I've seen geocachers encourage tromping all over the plants to get the cache, kill them if people feel up to it.

 

The plant in question is African Ice Plant, an invader species.

 

 

Good point. There are many places where I hike or cache that I would not feel right if I didn't pull out at least 100 broom plants. I might be able to make a dent in the stuff in 300 years or so. One of my caches is becoming increasingly surrounded by it but not enough people get up there to make geotrails.