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Destroyed Benchmark Question?


u.p.lurker

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I was looking through the destroyed benchmarks when I came across "RK0465" my question, Why if the last recovery (1998) was enough to cause this benchmark to listed as destroyed why was if not enough to have "MD0596" listed as destroyed which is the benchmark it was apparently discribing? (Just wondering)

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You can go here to find the datasheet. From there, enter RK0465. The last recovery lists it as leaning, though not actually missing.

 

It is also an exact duplicate of the last note for MD0596. Perhaps this is another case of a "major datasheet error". I haven't looked at a map. I'm just heading out the door, but I'll study it more later today.

 

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

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RK0465 is listed as destroyed

 

MD0596 was not reported as destroyed. For it to be logged as destroyed, NGS needs proof and they person sending in the recovery listed is as POOR.

 

quote:

1) If you have found the actual marker separated from its setting, you can report the point as destroyed. To do so please send the report on the destroyed mark as an email to Deb Brown (Deb.Brown@noaa.gov). If you send this email, please do not submit the current form, Deb Brown will submit the report for you. In addition, please submit proof of the mark's destruction via actual disk, rubbing, photo, or digital picture (preferred) to Deb Brown:


 

 

Mike

Survey Tech (Retired)

 

[This message was edited by elcamino on August 30, 2003 at 06:39 AM.]

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I think the original question is why MD0596 is NOT listed as destroyed. The text of the recovery is identical to that of RK0465. If one is considered "destroyed", shouldn't the other be as well?

 

Again, I think that one of these has an obvious error in the reports. It seems like a case of incorrect data entry at the NGS end.

 

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

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No, not necessarily.

 

How do you know the text is the same? When I enter the PID RK0465, the NGS site returns that its is reported destroyed. The database here is not up to date with the NGS database.

 

Since we do not know the condition and only have the text to go by, you have to accept it for what it is, in POOR CONDITION. Unless you want to go out and find it, take some photos of the condition and submit it to NGS, its not going to change.

 

Mike

Survey Tech (Retired)

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quote:
Originally posted by elcamino:

No, not necessarily.

 

How do you know the text is the same? When I enter the PID RK0465, the NGS site returns that its is reported destroyed. The database here is not up to date with the NGS database.

 

Mike

Survey Tech (Retired)


 

From the NGS site:

 

RK0465 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By

RK0465 HISTORY - 1985 MONUMENTED NGS

RK0465 HISTORY - 19980415 DESTROYED MIDT

RK0465

RK0465 STATION DESCRIPTION

RK0465

RK0465'DESCRIBED BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1985

RK0465'14.5 KM (9.0 MI) WEST FROM MARQUETTE.

RK0465'14.5 KM (9.0 MI) WESTERLY ALONG STATE HIGHWAY 28 FROM ITS JUNCTION

RK0465'WITH WASHINGTON STREET IN MARQUETTE, IN THE SOUTHWEST 1/3 OF A 20 BY

RK0465'154 FOOT EXPOSED AREA OF OUTCROPPING BEDROCK, 17.9 M (58.7 FT)

RK0465'NORTHEAST OF THE NORTHEAST ENTRANCE TO THE NORGAS PROPANE OFFICE

RK0465'BUILDING IN NEGAUNEE, 10.2 M (33.5 FT) SOUTHEAST OF THE CENTERLINE OF

RK0465'THE EAST BOUND LANES OF THE HIGHWAY, AND 7.7 M (25.3 FT) NORTH OF A

RK0465'UTILITY POLE WITH A GUY WIRE.

RK0465'THE MARK IS 0.3 METERS SW FROM A WITNESS POST

RK0465'THE MARK IS 1.0 M ABOVE THE HIGHWAY.

RK0465

RK0465 STATION RECOVERY (1998)

RK0465

RK0465'RECOVERY NOTE BY MICHIGAN DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 1998 (SHN)

RK0465'STATION IS LOCATED ON THE HILLSDALE QUADRANGLE MAP AND IN THE VILLAGE

RK0465'OF JONESVILLE. IT IS LOCATED IN FRONT OF THE OLD TRAIN DEPOT AND IS

RK0465'100 FT (30.5 M) NORTH OF THE CENTERLINE OF US HIGHWAY 12 (CHICAGO

RK0465'AVE.) AND 50 FT (15.2 M) EAST OF THE CENTERLINE OF THE RAILROAD

RK0465'TRACKS. STATION IS IN POOR CONDITION AND IS LEANING TO THE WEST.

 

Also from the NGS site:

 

MD0596 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By

MD0596 HISTORY - 1934 MONUMENTED CGS

MD0596 HISTORY - 1940 GOOD NGS

MD0596 HISTORY - 1988 GOOD USPSQD

MD0596 HISTORY - 19980330 POOR LOCENG

MD0596

MD0596 STATION DESCRIPTION

MD0596

MD0596'DESCRIBED BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1940

MD0596'AT JONESVILLE.

MD0596'AT JONESVILLE, HILLSDALE COUNTY, ON THE NEW YORK CENTRAL

MD0596'RAILROAD, 60 YARDS SOUTHEAST OF THE SOUTHWEST CORNER OF THE

MD0596'STATION, AT THE CROSSING OF U.S. HIGHWAY 112, 39 YARDS NORTH OF

MD0596'THE CROSSING OF THE CENTERLINE OF THE HIGHWAY AND THE EAST RAIL

MD0596'OF THE MAIN TRACK, 14 YARDS NORTHEAST OF THE EAST RAIL OF THE

MD0596'MAIN TRACK, AND 3 FEET SOUTHWEST OF A POLE. A STANDARD DISK,

MD0596'STAMPED C 112 1934 AND SET IN THE TOP OF A CONCRETE POST.

MD0596

MD0596 STATION RECOVERY (1988)

MD0596

MD0596'RECOVERY NOTE BY US POWER SQUADRON 1988 (RBP)

MD0596'RECOVERED IN GOOD CONDITION.

MD0596

MD0596 STATION RECOVERY (1998)

MD0596

MD0596'RECOVERY NOTE BY LOCAL ENGINEER (INDIVIDUAL OR FIRM) 1998 (RAB)

MD0596'STATION IS LOCATED ON THE HILLSDALE QUADRANGLE MAP AND IN THE VILLAGE

MD0596'OF JONESVILLE. IT IS LOCATED IN FRONT OF THE OLD TRAIN DEPOT AND IS

MD0596'100 FT (30.5 M) NORTH OF THE CENTERLINE OF US HIGHWAY 12 (CHICAGO

MD0596'AVE.) AND 50 FT (15.2 M) EAST OF THE CENTERLINE OF THE RAILROAD

MD0596'TRACKS. STATION IS IN POOR CONDITION AND IS LEANING TO THE WEST.

 

Other than the fact that one was reported by DOT and one by a local engineer, the 1998 recover text is identical. If it's not a major data entry error, why would identical conditions qualify as both "poor" and "destroyed". Is the official reporting process that subjective?

 

Other than this thread, I have used no data from the GC website. Everything came directly from the NGS site, and was collected at the time of this posting.

 

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

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These are all messed up somehow. You have a DESTROYED BM from Marquette, Michigan with the wrong recoverey report in it. Hillsdale County and Jonesville are near the Ohio state line. What a mess this is.

 

|Dist|PID...|H V|Vert_Source|Approx.|Approx..|Stab|Designation

|----|------|- -|-----------|-------|--------|----|-----------

|....|RK0465|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N463043|W0873606|A...|E 329

|....|AE9966|. 3|88/RESET...|N463043|W0873606|A...|E 329 RESET

|....|MD0596|. 2|88/ADJUSTED|N415849|W0844014|C...|C 112

 

 

RK0465 I cannot pull up on the NGS site, it tells me its destroyed. How in heck can you get it? It should not come up unless you are reading from a CD dated before this? I know for a fact this one is destroyed because I am the one that reported it to NGS (what are the odds of this) and it should not even come up, its long gone. The road was widened and the rock was removed with he mark. The state advisor took care of all the reports and it might have been 1999 before he had the time to do it, we SHN (PS) and I did the field work etc.

 

Here is my report on the reset;

The NGS Data SheetSee file dsdata.txt for more information about the datasheet.DATABASE = Sybase ,PROGRAM = datasheet, VERSION = 6.81

1 National Geodetic Survey, Retrieval Date = AUGUST 31, 2003

AE9966 ***********************************************************************

AE9966 DESIGNATION - E 329 RESET

AE9966 PID - AE9966

AE9966 STATE/COUNTY- MI/MARQUETTE

AE9966 USGS QUAD - NEGAUNEE (1975)

AE9966

AE9966 *CURRENT SURVEY CONTROL

AE9966 ___________________________________________________________________

AE9966* NAD 83(1986)- 46 30 43. (N) 087 36 06. (W) SCALED

AE9966* NAVD 88 - 429.88 (meters) 1410.4 (feet) RESET

AE9966 ___________________________________________________________________

AE9966 GEOID HEIGHT- -33.94 (meters) GEOID99

AE9966

AE9966 VERT ORDER - THIRD

AE9966

AE9966.The horizontal coordinates were scaled from a topographic map and have

AE9966.an estimated accuracy of +/- 6 seconds.

AE9966

AE9966.The orthometric height was computed from unverified reset data.

AE9966

AE9966.The geoid height was determined by GEOID99.

AE9966

AE9966; North East Units Estimated Accuracy

AE9966;SPC MI N - 192,300. 7,953,830. MT (+/- 180 meters Scaled)

AE9966

AE9966 SUPERSEDED SURVEY CONTROL

AE9966

AE9966.No superseded survey control is available for this station.

AE9966

AE9966_U.S. NATIONAL GRID SPATIAL ADDRESS: 16TDS538511(NAD 83)

AE9966_MARKER: DV = VERTICAL CONTROL DISK

AE9966_SETTING: 66 = SET IN ROCK OUTCROP

AE9966_STAMPING: E 329 RESET 1998

AE9966_MARK LOGO: NGS

AE9966_MAGNETIC: N = NO MAGNETIC MATERIAL

AE9966_STABILITY: A = MOST RELIABLE AND EXPECTED TO HOLD

AE9966+STABILITY: POSITION/ELEVATION WELL

AE9966

AE9966 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By

AE9966 HISTORY - 1998 MONUMENTED MIDT

AE9966 HISTORY - 20011011 GOOD USPSQD

AE9966

AE9966 STATION DESCRIPTION

AE9966

AE9966'DESCRIBED BY MICHIGAN DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 1998 (SHN)

AE9966'STATION IS LOCATED AT NEGAUNEE, ALONG US HIGHWAY 41 AND STATE HIGHWAY

AE9966'M-28, IN THE SOUTHWEST SIDE OF A LARGE PROMINENT ROCK OUTCROP

AE9966'SOUTHEAST OF THE HIGHWAY. IT IS ABOUT 0.17 KM (0.10 MI) SOUTHWEST OF

AE9966'THE JUNCTION WITH COUNTY ROAD 492 (MAAS ST) AND A TRAFFIC SIGNAL, 16.3

AE9966'M (53.5 FT) NORTHEAST OF THE CENTERLINE OF THE NORTHEAST DRIVE

AE9966'ENTRANCE TO THE FERRELL GAS OFFICE/STORE AND BULK PLANT, 10.6 M (34.8

AE9966'FT) SOUTHEAST OF THE BACK OF CURB, 5.2 M (17.1 FT) NORTH OF A POWER

AE9966'POLE, 1.4 M (4.6 FT) SOUTHEAST OF A CALCITE VEIN AT THE NORTHWEST

AE9966'CORNER OF THE ROCK OUTCROP, 0.55 M (1.80 FT) NORTHEAST OF A CARSONITE

AE9966'WITNESS POST, AND 0.3 M (1.0 FT) EAST OF THE NORTHWEST CORNER OF THE

AE9966'LOWEST LEDGE ON THE SOUTHWEST SIDE. A STANDARD VERTICAL CONTROL DISK

AE9966'SET IN A DRILL HOLE ABOUT 1.1 M (3.6 FT) ABOVE LEVEL WITH THE HIGHWAY.

AE9966'DESCRIBED BY MIKE RAFFAELLI, SURVEY TECH - MIDT.

AE9966

AE9966 STATION RECOVERY (2001)

AE9966

AE9966'RECOVERY NOTE BY US POWER SQUADRON 2001 (BAA)

AE9966'RECOVERED IN GOOD CONDITION.

 

*** retrieval complete.

Elapsed Time = 00:00:00

 

[This message was edited by elcamino on August 31, 2003 at 05:46 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by elcamino:

RK0465 is listed as destroyed

 

MD0596 was not reported as destroyed. For it to be logged as destroyed, NGS needs proof and they person sending in the recovery listed is as POOR.

 

quote:

1) If you have found the actual marker separated from its setting, you can report the point as destroyed. To do so please send the report on the destroyed mark as an email to Deb Brown (Deb.Brown@noaa.gov). If you send this email, please do not submit the current form, Deb Brown will submit the report for you. In addition, please submit proof of the mark's destruction via actual disk, rubbing, photo, or digital picture (preferred) to Deb Brown:


 

Mike

Survey Tech (Retired)


 

I emailed Deb Brown with the following questions:

 

Deb,

Can you clarify the meaning of DESTROYED? The wording in the guidelines

leaves a question about the degree of destroyed.

 

1. Disk with designation is missing even if mount and pin still exists.

2. Disk and pin are missing even if mounting hole exists.

3. Disk, pin and mount have been totally damaged, unearthed or destroyed.

 

Her reply:

 

quote:
All are "destroyed" except number 1. In that case, use the

POOR/DISTURBED code and in the text portion of the form describe it's

condition.

 

Thanks,

 

deb


 

1950 Surveyor

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quote:
Originally posted by elcamino:

RK0465 I cannot pull up on the NGS site, it tells me its destroyed. _How in heck can you get it? It should not come up unless you are reading from a CD dated before this?


 

I retrieve the datasheets using the "PID" retrieval method. I then check the box that says "Include Destroyed Marks".

 

FYI, I had another datasheet for a tri-station that I wanted to retrieve. I knew the mark was officially destroyed, but wanted the detailed info on the RM, AZ marks. I searched for the mark by "Station Name", because I didn't know the PID. I got the "destroyed report" which didn't include the info I wanted, BUT it did include the PID. Just for kicks, I went back and tried to retrieve the same datasheet using the PID instead of the Station Name, and it came right up. I don't understand how their database works (or should work), but I do know that if you can't get it one way, you may be able to get it another.

 

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

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I am never concerned with destroyed marks and did not try that.

 

But I assure you its gone when they blasted out the rock for US-41 to add a 5th lane.

 

As a matter of fact the mark was destroyed back in the 80's but the field notes were lost until I found them miss-filed with another project in 1998. We we out and found the old temp BM's we had set, 3 of them to be exact, set the new disk and leveled to it in 1998, sent the field notes to the state advisor and he did the rest and it looks like he messed it up a little.

 

So any reference to RK0465 is worthless and should be disregarded in its entirety.

 

Were you up here in Marquette, Michigan??

 

Mike

Survey Tech (Retired)

 

[This message was edited by elcamino on August 31, 2003 at 06:08 AM.]

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Thanks for the responses. Didn't know my question would cause a problem, Sorry. I went to the NGS database and selected datasheets,datasheets,county,type(the last selection)which indicated destroyed marks, then read the last descriptions. was curious about RK0465. again Sorry. I live in Gwinn..

 

haven't got this whole thing figured out yet

uplurker

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quote:
Originally posted by Colorado Papa:

1. Disk with designation is missing even if mount and pin still exists.

2. Disk and pin are missing even if mounting hole exists.

3. Disk, pin and mount have been totally damaged, unearthed or destroyed.

 

Her reply:

 

quote:
All are "destroyed" except number 1. In that case, use the

POOR/DISTURBED code and in the text portion of the form describe it's

condition.


 


 

OK, the pin itself is the mark. A hole is not sufficiently accurate.

 

Now if the disk is gone the question remains about a positive ID of the station. Since we lack the tools to precisely measure the location within a fraction of a inch, I’m not sure as we would be able to file a destroyed report under any of the circumstances listed. A professional surveyor would have the tools.

 

I was certainly under the impression from prior posts that if the disk couldn’t be found that the mark couldn’t be declared destroyed. It would have to be filed as "not found" with a note.

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quote:
Originally posted by happycycler:

I found a badly disturbed azimuth mark today. Take a look at AA8706.


I'm not sure how resets are done, but I'd count this one as destroyed. It's been positively identified but it's moved out of it's location. Positional integrity has been lost.

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