so with smartphones premium membership benefits may be obsolete

[+Team Cotati]

ashnikes is right, to a degree.

I have just taken up caching using a Nokia smartphone, Trimbles app will allow me to access premium members caches, also in fieldnotes I can click the 'found it' button, this will allow me to post a log once I get back to my computer, but cant edit or view once I submit the log....Unless I click the 'found it' button once more.

I've been using Trimble's app on my smartphone since I started caching. At first I didn't see a need to pay for a premium membership, until I logged a premium member only cache. I decided to pay for a membership, and I'm really glad I did.

 

I don't know what all the differences are between premium/regular memberships, but I LOVE the pocket queries! I use them all the time to find interesting caches, or unfound caches, or caches along a route, or caches of a particular rating, or puzzle caches, etc.

 

Since Groundspeak provides a service, I feel like the least I can do is pay a nominal amount to support them. This isn't a charity -- if you want to play, I feel that the responsible thing to do is to show appreciation by paying for a membership.

 

As for ashnikes comment about roads already being here/we should be walking more anyway --- get real. That's either an incredibly selfish comment, or pure trolling.

 

"I feel that the responsible thing to do is to show appreciation by paying for a membership."

 

Are those, in your opinion, who do not pay for the membership, not responsible people?

[+hukilaulau]

I doubt there are actually many PMs who pay solely to "support the site." If that's your only goal, why get a membership? Why not just donate $30? And why is $30 the magic number if you want to support the site? Why not $20? Or $40?

 

Even if you don't use the PM features, you're still in it somewhat for the recognition. You not only want to support the site, you want everyone else to know it.

 

If there's anyone out there who's just donated money to Groundspeak, I'll stand corrected. But I doubt there will be many, especially among the self-righteous people in this thread.

 

P.S. I'm considering a PM but I'm waiting to see whether this becomes a long term hobby or just a passing interest.

Wow! less than two months in the club and you know the motives of members who've been here for years!

That would be impressive except for one minor detail. You're wrong. WAY wrong. I am one of many members who got a premium membership soon after they joined just to support the site. I knew within a few days that this was perfect for me and I wanted to support the people who make it work. buying a premium membership was the EASIEST way to support the site. That's it. You would have known this if you had done even a cursory check of the many, many threads that have addressed this issue. unless you think we're all just liers.

I'm not saying you're wrong in any way to wait and see if you are going to continue in the game. Just don't make snap judgments about the motives of others.

[drewmm]

I doubt there are actually many PMs who pay solely to "support the site." If that's your only goal, why get a membership? Why not just donate $30? And why is $30 the magic number if you want to support the site? Why not $20? Or $40?

 

Even if you don't use the PM features, you're still in it somewhat for the recognition. You not only want to support the site, you want everyone else to know it.

 

If there's anyone out there who's just donated money to Groundspeak, I'll stand corrected. But I doubt there will be many, especially among the self-righteous people in this thread.

 

P.S. I'm considering a PM but I'm waiting to see whether this becomes a long term hobby or just a passing interest.

Wow! less than two months in the club and you know the motives of members who've been here for years!

That would be impressive except for one minor detail. You're wrong. WAY wrong. I am one of many members who got a premium membership soon after they joined just to support the site. I knew within a few days that this was perfect for me and I wanted to support the people who make it work. buying a premium membership was the EASIEST way to support the site. That's it. You would have known this if you had done even a cursory check of the many, many threads that have addressed this issue. unless you think we're all just liers.

I'm not saying you're wrong in any way to wait and see if you are going to continue in the game. Just don't make snap judgments about the motives of others.

 

So you would have no problem emailing Groundspeak and asking them to take away your Premium Membership and/or changing your forum profile back to how it looks for a basic member?

 

I never denied that supporting the site was a part of the motivation to get a Premium Membership. But if it were actually your only motivation, you would have just donated rather than getting a membership.

 

By the way, "you've only been here xxx months so you're not allowed to have an opinion" wears thin rather quickly. What I'm saying really has nothing to do with geocaching, it's just a basic understanding of Econ and human behavior. Please let me know when I'm old enough to come into the clubhouse.

 

As I made clear in the first post you read and quoted, I don't know whether there are people who've actually donated to Groundspeak. In fact, I guessed that there probably were. But a Premium Membership does not equal just a desire to support the site.

 

It's like people who pay way more for a product at a fundraiser than they would normally. Wanting to support the organization is part of the motivation, but it's not the only motivation.

Edited May 31, 2010 by drewmm

[+roziecakes]

 

in fact the only things i can see that premium members get smartphone users dont, is a title of "premium member" which means you pay an anual fee of what 30$? to a virtual third party for a site that is a virtual backup of your real geologs, that costs roughly 100 bucks a year to maintain, total,

 

 

You are absolutely WRONG. Sites take much more money and manhours to run than 100 a year, especially one of this size. How do I know? It's what I do for a living. Groundspeak has employees they have to pay, electric bills, equipment to maintain, etc. Why not give them money?

 

Besides, all of us who pay to play, keep it free for others. I'm happy to give my money to Groundspeak. It's my favorite hobby. I love it!

 

Many people do not have smartphones, myself included, by choice. Just like not everyone wants to be a premium member, not everyone likes smartphones. I have no interest whatsoever in owning one personally, but I'm not going to insult anyone else's choice to own one or ask anyone why they even bother paying for one, as you are with PM.

 

Honestly, it seems like you don't like geocaching. You've posted many negative things since you came here, what a week ago? It's not the way to make friends. As many others have said to you, explore the game a little more before you start forming such a negative opinion of it, or hey, maybe even learn to accept the bad with the good and get over it.

 

Or just don't cache... many others have told you that as well. I'm sorry, but your attitude disgusts me. You say you have come here to talk about issues that need to be brought up; well, I suggest you read the forums for a little while. These ARE topics that have been brought up before, only they were discussed in a much more polite and friendly way. You might learn something.

 

If you don't want a premium membership, fine. Spend all your money on your smartphone and be happy. Those of us who do pay for it have our own reasons. Some like Pocket Queries, some like to be supportive, some like Premium Member only caches and not seeing a bunch of ads on the site. Some like the Off Topic forum, some like all of it. I don't even use PQs myself except for the My Finds PQ for my stats program.

 

Just know that folks are not reacting to you negatively because of what you said, it's the way you presented it. I mean seriously, rather than just feeling high and mighty, just know that maybe so many people are reacting negatively to you for a REASON. If you can't, then I suggest you just ride out on that self-satisfied horse that you rode in on.

 

My apologies to the mods.

[+Team Cotati]

I can honestly state that I have never, not once, in my entire life have I transferred one thin dime to any commercial for profit entity because it is the 'right thing to do'.

 

I am certain that lots of you guys have in fact done that.

 

I just can't understand why. But as they say, it's your money.

[+mchaos]

First, its not a lot of money to pay. And I like to have access to member caches, because they are less likely to be crappy lol.

 

Some of the things a smart phone can do are pretty cool, like logging your find on the go. thats pretty hot. Have to pay a bit for the data plan, and to use GPS on the phone on some providers.

 

Then there is always that problem of being able to get service in some area's. Then there is their accuracy. They are "okay" but they are quite a bit lacking in accuracy. Now I have a Magellan triton 400, where some people don't like, and some say it is not accurate, however, I have seen my unit trump other brands that are supposed to be better. Most of the time it takes me to right on top of the cache, unless the coords are not so hot.

 

I work with a guy who is just getting into caching. He has a droid with a geocaching app. It is really cool. I showed him my receiver, and he was gloating about his droid until we put them to the test on finding a cache. I let him wonder around trying to find the GZ, he must have found the GZ 6 times in different spots. Finally I used my unit and walked right to where the unit said GZ, and i was nearly standing on top of it.

 

After that he was impressed. He is still using his droid, but is considering buying a hand held unit.

 

I like being able to have all the caches loaded onto my unit. It has all the information about each cache right on it after I load them in. At that point all I need is a clear view of the sky. Nothing else and I can cache all day. Its even better now that I see that the geocaching website has added Magellan support and I can zip them right onto my unit from my laptop.

 

Something about owning a membership is nice as well.

[+Chokecherry]

If you want to pay another $9.95 to $29.95 per month for the full data plan on your phone with a low precision GPS vs $30 per year for a PM - go right ahead. Then we will go caching out in the sandhills of Nebraska with zero cell coverage. Heck - why go that far you lose signal about 4 miles out of town.

 

I paid for the app on my phone to use in addition to my gps that i also use for other stuff. Instead of buying a more expensive gps I am able to use my existing tool in my phone for the paperless aspect if the sport. As I stated before there are many ways to support this business. I choose to buy the app and tangible items from the store to support their business. Reading this makes me regret even doing that as it seems many believe you're not giving enough money if you don't throw into the website membership alone.

Where did I say I needed to give more money to the site??

 

Where did I say you or anybody had to be a PM??

I was just trying to say that $29.95 vs $2.50 to avoid a pm seems silly.

Especially when cells don't work everywhere.

 

The reason why your argument makes no sense is that no one gets a smart phone in order to "avoid" getting a geocaching membership. In 99.9% of cases (yes, made up statistic) people already have a smart phone and it's an added benefit.

 

So the real comparison isn't $30 a year vs. $30 a month. It's $30 a year vs. $10 one time.

 

I agree the comparison is $30/year vs. $10 for a one time purchase. I do not use my phone solely for caching same with the data package etc. I did not buy a phone because it would make caching easier. I discovered caching based on that $10 purchase. And all subsequent purchases of merchandise that I make will continue to add to their coffers.

 

It seems to be the common belief here that the only way Groundspeak is making any money is through premium memberships when it's only just one way they are making money. And it seems to be the common belief that all the people who spend money on all their ancillary products are doing nothing to support the business if they aren't buying a premium membership. Groundspeak has a more expansive business model than just premium memberships. That's not even touching on any corporate connections they have which are not relevant.

 

Do I think smart phones are the end to the premium membership? No. Do I think it's a tool to use? Yeah. It works great for keeping my paperless caching and subsequently save me money on the GPSr because I didn't need the geocaching specific bells and whistles.

 

If people want to pay for a premium member to support this business great for them. I support it in different ways. If people really wanted people to support this business for the warm fuzzies they would probably look at what kind of representation they are being for the company. Is the behavior and attitude portrayed here going to encourage people to pay for the membership? As someone who at one point was ready to start saving money up for a membership after being on the fence I'm back on the fence after this.

[+bswanderer]

before the argument goes too far...has anyone heard any comment from GS, are they loosing money from less people buying the premium membership and if trackable, is it from more people using smartphones?

 

IF this is a problem, than i'd be interested in GS limiting access to searches/downloads BUT conversely I'd also ask that they open things up more for those that ARE paying (as in premium users being able to use the droid app that shall go nameless).

 

OR EVEN if there is a concern of bandwidth and need to upgrade servers even more for apps that strip info from the site, than add another tier of membership for smartphones that have this problem.

[+hukilaulau]

I doubt there are actually many PMs who pay solely to "support the site." If that's your only goal, why get a membership? Why not just donate $30? And why is $30 the magic number if you want to support the site? Why not $20? Or $40?

 

Even if you don't use the PM features, you're still in it somewhat for the recognition. You not only want to support the site, you want everyone else to know it.

 

If there's anyone out there who's just donated money to Groundspeak, I'll stand corrected. But I doubt there will be many, especially among the self-righteous people in this thread.

 

P.S. I'm considering a PM but I'm waiting to see whether this becomes a long term hobby or just a passing interest.

Wow! less than two months in the club and you know the motives of members who've been here for years!

That would be impressive except for one minor detail. You're wrong. WAY wrong. I am one of many members who got a premium membership soon after they joined just to support the site. I knew within a few days that this was perfect for me and I wanted to support the people who make it work. buying a premium membership was the EASIEST way to support the site. That's it. You would have known this if you had done even a cursory check of the many, many threads that have addressed this issue. unless you think we're all just liers.

I'm not saying you're wrong in any way to wait and see if you are going to continue in the game. Just don't make snap judgments about the motives of others.

 

So you would have no problem emailing Groundspeak and asking them to take away your Premium Membership and/or changing your forum profile back to how it looks for a basic member?

 

I never denied that supporting the site was a part of the motivation to get a Premium Membership. But if it were actually your only motivation, you would have just donated rather than getting a membership.

 

By the way, "you've only been here xxx months so you're not allowed to have an opinion" wears thin rather quickly. What I'm saying really has nothing to do with geocaching, it's just a basic understanding of Econ and human behavior. Please let me know when I'm old enough to come into the clubhouse.

 

As I made clear in the first post you read and quoted, I don't know whether there are people who've actually donated to Groundspeak. In fact, I guessed that there probably were. But a Premium Membership does not equal just a desire to support the site.

 

It's like people who pay way more for a product at a fundraiser than they would normally. Wanting to support the organization is part of the motivation, but it's not the only motivation.

Ok, sorry about the remark about being too new to geocaching to have an opinion. What I should have said is you're not old enough to really understand Econ and human behavior. You still won't get it, but I'll repeat, human motives run far deeper than your simplistic assumptions. Try stretching your mind around this: It is possible to make a donation and not care one way or another if people know you are doing it. Neither seeking nor avoiding recognition. Why in the world should I pretend that I'm NOT a premium member?

But I don't want to lose sight of the original question, is Iphone technology making premium membership obsolete. I'm saying I don't think so. According to your theory, when all the benefits of premium membership can be had for free, nobody will pay for it anymore. (Do I have that right?) We may never know, but it sure would be interesting to see the numbers! Meanwhile, I'll keep renewing my membership.

To paraphrase another poster: it's my "thin dime," and fortunately it doesn't matter whether or not he understands why I do the things I do with it.

[drewmm]

Ok, sorry about the remark about being too new to geocaching to have an opinion. What I should have said is you're not old enough to really understand Econ and human behavior. You still won't get it, but I'll repeat, human motives run far deeper than your simplistic assumptions. Try stretching your mind around this: It is possible to make a donation and not care one way or another if people know you are doing it. Neither seeking nor avoiding recognition. Why in the world should I pretend that I'm NOT a premium member?

But I don't want to lose sight of the original question, is Iphone technology making premium membership obsolete. I'm saying I don't think so. According to your theory, when all the benefits of premium membership can be had for free, nobody will pay for it anymore. (Do I have that right?) We may never know, but it sure would be interesting to see the numbers! Meanwhile, I'll keep renewing my membership.

To paraphrase another poster: it's my "thin dime," and fortunately it doesn't matter whether or not he understands why I do the things I do with it.

 

You're again basically failing to read what I wrote. My theory is not that "when all the benefits of premium membership can be had for free, nobody will pay for it anymore." Like I said, I suspect there are people who actually do just donate to Groundspeak, and of course that wouldn't stop. And even if Pocket Queries, notifications, and all that become available to anyone, there's still the bragging rights, recognition, and moral superiority benefits of a Premium Membership.

 

I'm not accusing you of lying. Perhaps you really think you're only a PM out of a desire to support the site. But your behavior strongly suggests otherwise.

 

Yes, it's entirely possible that someone would want to support this site out of the goodness of their heart rather than for any benefits or recognition.

 

It's possible that the amount they want to support the site just happens to work out to exactly $30 a year.

 

It's possible that such a person would jump into an argument like this by pointing out that they are, in fact, one of the morally superior Premium Members.

 

Possible, but extremely unlikely.

 

Like I said before, I'm sure that there are people who donate with no desire for benefits or recognition. We'll never know exactly who they are because they don't need recognition, of course, but I don't deny or belittle their existence/contribution. But having a Premium Membership does not make someone one of those people.

 

I'm sure that many Premium Members are sure that they only have the membership because they want to support the site. And I'm sure that those PMs have rationalized why exactly $30/year is the right contribution.

 

If you're one of those people, though, ask yourself: do you pay $30 a year because you want to support the site? Or is it because it's a way to support the site that lets you feel good about yourself, and feel like part of a select, higher-up community?

 

If instead of Premium Memberships, Groundspeak had a "donate" button, would you donate exactly $30 a year? Why?

 

~~~

 

As to the actual topic of this thread. No, I don't think the smartphones will make Premium Memberships obsolete. PM's would still be helpful for off-network areas (I've run into a few really slow spots with my iPhone) as well as for caches along a route (I might get a PM soon because I'm planning a trip up north) and other PQ functionality.

 

And, the folks at Groundspeak are smart. If being a PM looses its appeal, they'll give PMs more benefits.

 

~~~

 

A final challenge to any PM's who assert that they only have the PM to support Groundspeak and geocaching: this year, instead of paying just $30, donate an extra $5 to Groundspeak. Don't tell anyone you did so. Just do it. If you feel so strongly about supporting this, and aren't just getting a PM for the benefits/bragging rights, give them a few extra dollars. I won't know who you are, obviously, but you'll have my respect.

[+Vater_Araignee]

drewmm,

 

Some of us have more than one PM account, we just don't advertise it.

I know a couple in NC, each with a PM account and according to GS they both could reap the benefits of having just one and they know it.

Using that to answer ashnikes original premise, no premium membership is not and will not be obsolete.

Using that to answer "If instead of Premium Memberships, Groundspeak had a "donate" button, would you donate exactly $30 a year?" some will some wont and some will donate more. "Why?" Who cares? As long as enough is brought in to keep the site alive.

 

Oh wait, strike out the who cares.

[drewmm]

I'm sure that couple prefers to have two accounts rather than just one. If they just wanted to give extra money to Groundspeak they would donate the extra $30

 

I've never denied that people would donate. I'm sure there are PMs currently who only consider the benefits worth $10 and treat the remaining $20 as a donation. If there were no PMs those people would likely donate about $20. Are there people who would donate >$30? Maybe, but if they aren't already...why not?

 

Purchasing a PM will never be completely a donation, just like buying Girl Scout cookies is never just a donation. Partially, yes. Completely? No.

[+geodarts]

A final challenge to any PM's who assert that they only have the PM to support Groundspeak and geocaching: this year, instead of paying just $30, donate an extra $5 to Groundspeak. Don't tell anyone you did so. Just do it. If you feel so strongly about supporting this, and aren't just getting a PM for the benefits/bragging rights, give them a few extra dollars. I won't know who you are, obviously, but you'll have my respect.

 

Motivation is a complex thing; Saul Alinsky built community organizations around getting people to realize that their self interest is best served by working together. So ultimately my caching self interest is best served by the premium features that Groundspeak offers to keep the listing service in operation. And I am happy to do that for both the features and the caching opportunities that the site provides. I even became a PM before I had a gpsr.

 

But Groundspeak is also a business and it has decided that $30 a year will keep Jeremy supported in the style to which he has become accustomed and (hopefully) pay people a living wage. If it takes more than that to run their fleet of private jets, hire extra people to work out the bugs in wherigos, and keep everything afloat, he can let us know. I have not seen them hold a bake sale quite yet, or auction off the rights to list a new virtual cache. Until then, there is a long list of nonprofts who want my extra and not-so-extra dollars these days.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Erickson

[+Vater_Araignee]

I'm sure that couple prefers to have two accounts rather than just one. If they just wanted to give extra money to Groundspeak they would donate the extra $30

 

I've never denied that people would donate. I'm sure there are PMs currently who only consider the benefits worth $10 and treat the remaining $20 as a donation. If there were no PMs those people would likely donate about $20. Are there people who would donate >$30? Maybe, but if they aren't already...why not?

 

Purchasing a PM will never be completely a donation, just like buying Girl Scout cookies is never just a donation. Partially, yes. Completely? No.

You are wrong on so many levels.

First off, where is the spot anyone can go to just make a donation? There are none so people have to find other methods.

 

You can be sure about their motives all you want but until you sure that they have the two accounts because they want to help support the site you are going to be wrong.

Only one of them runs PQs, they know how to log a PMOC with a basic account.

Only one of them hides caches and never PMOCs.

My father has a PM account, he threatens but never caches without me, he never hides caches, and he never logs online. What do suppose his motivations are? If it is anything other than supporting an activity he enjoys doing with me then you would be wrong.

 

BTW GS cookies taste like a combination of cardboard and scat so I throw them away. My only motivation for taking the box is to keep the girl honest otherwise I would just give her a flat out donation.

[+hukilaulau]

A final challenge to any PM's who assert that they only have the PM to support Groundspeak and geocaching: this year, instead of paying just $30, donate an extra $5 to Groundspeak. Don't tell anyone you did so. Just do it. If you feel so strongly about supporting this, and aren't just getting a PM for the benefits/bragging rights, give them a few extra dollars. I won't know who you are, obviously, but you'll have my respect.

Dude, you watch too many TV commercials. Your "challenge" is pointless. I have nothing to prove.

I think your idea that people get PM's for "bragging rights" is hilarious.

You apparently think some of us are either dishonest or don't know our own motivations.

I guess we'll just have to leave it at that.

Bye, now!

[drewmm]

http://www.geocaching.com/contact/default.aspx

 

I'm sure they would be happy to tell you how. Check in the mail probably works. If not, I'm sure they will tell you another method. I know GS has PayPal, you can send someone money via that, right?

 

If Groundspeak doesn't have a normal way set up to donate, it's probably because they realize thatmost people aren't interested in just donating.

 

I was unaware that you could log PMOC from a basic account. But regardless, even if they do just use the benefits on one account, they still get the recognition and other such effects of becoming a Premium Member.

 

In some strange way, what's going on in this thread is almost exactly what I'm talking about. I haven't criticized anyone. I haven't called anyone a liar or suggested that they've done anything wrong. But the various people who've been responded seem interested in milking their Premium Membership for all the "street cred" it's worth.

 

All that Premium Members want to do is support the site....and make sure that everyone else knows what great, selfless people they are.

 

After looking more into the donating thing, I will acknowledge that it's not obvious how to do so. That increases the likelihood that some (especially people who aren't very comfortable on the Internet) will be willing to get a PM as their choice of support even if $30 isn't exactly the amount they care about supporting GS. Maybe they don't care enough about supporting to make the slight additional effort to figure out how to just donate

 

But those people are not the people on the forums who will take every possible opportunity to point out what great people they are because they get a PM just to support the site.

 

It's not a bad thing. Seeking recognition and such from others is not wrong. But it is part of the motivation.

[drewmm]

After reflecting on this some more, I realized that i've been unfairly generalizing. I really don't know how many people are just trying to donate, and there's no way for me to know.

 

It's unfair because the people who actually are getting PMs just to donate won't be posting here exactly because they don't care what others think.

 

So I think I'll just go with saying that many people who claim to be getting PMs just to support the site really have other motives.

[+kwcahart]

I just can't believe that anyone would question why they should pay for a membership! I guess they think this web site is free! GEEZE!!!