topo 8

[+pdrhound]

just spent 5 hours trying to load one 3km sqare map from delorme to topo to gps. this is the most ridiculous process i've ever seen. the software is a joke. was 'unable to make topo8 even recognize the shoddy zip file sent to me by delorme. i use many software programs everyday. who is the idiot who put this together. why should i have to use 6 (yes 6) programs to laod a map to my gps. what BS. i who has the time. no humting for me tomorrow

Edited September 10, 2009 by pdrhound

[+Rockin Roddy]

just spent 5 hours trying to load one 3km sqare map from delorme to topo to gps. this is the most ridiculous process i've ever seen. the software is a joke. was 'unable to make topo8 even recognize the shoddy zip file sent to me by delorme. i use many software programs everyday. who is the idiot who put this together. why should i have to use 6 (yes 6) programs to laod a map to my gps. what BS. i who has the time. no humting for me tomorrow

 

Nice rant, I give it a 6!!

 

Of course, if you'd like help, a question would be the best way to get it! I can tell you wholeheartedly that I was able to figure T8 out very quickly when it comes to map loading, I also know many newbs who have mastered that process...if we can do it, I have confidence a seasoned software user as yourself can!! btw, the DeLorme forums has a step-by-step process if you'd like: DeLorme forums

 

Last, why was your hunting ruined without the maps?? And PLEASE, tell us what 6 programs you're trying to use??

Edited September 10, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

[+The Yinnies]

just spent 5 hours trying to load one 3km sqare map from delorme to topo to gps. this is the most ridiculous process i've ever seen. the software is a joke. was 'unable to make topo8 even recognize the shoddy zip file sent to me by delorme. i use many software programs everyday. who is the idiot who put this together. why should i have to use 6 (yes 6) programs to laod a map to my gps. what BS. i who has the time. no humting for me tomorrow

I had a problem a few times with the downloads and called Delorme. Within 30 minutes it was taken care of and downloading on my computer. There tech has been great everytime I needed them.

[NordicMan]

..sounds like someone had a bad cup of coffee this morning

[+Echomalinois]

Try here http://delormepn40.wikispaces.com/Selecting+Imagery and here http://delormepn40.wikispaces.com/Cutting+Map+Packages. Took me some time to figure out but this helped me understand what needed to be done. I have only had my PN40 for a week, but now loading maps is a piece of cake.

[+TotemLake]

just spent 5 hours trying to load one 3km sqare map from delorme to topo to gps. this is the most ridiculous process i've ever seen. the software is a joke. was 'unable to make topo8 even recognize the shoddy zip file sent to me by delorme. i use many software programs everyday. who is the idiot who put this together. why should i have to use 6 (yes 6) programs to laod a map to my gps. what BS. i who has the time. no humting for me tomorrow

 

The devil is in the details... or the lack thereof.

 

1. I don't know of too many programs that recognize a zip file for anything more than a compressed file. It has to know what to do with it. GSAK knows it has to unzip the file and then process the data, but that's a macro that accomplishes these steps. Just what is Topo supposed to know about it? Not a thing. It will however, process the GPX file once it has been extracted and imported which can also be done by drag and drop.

 

As for the other programs and slow transfer speeds, you'll need to expand your OP for further assistance.

[+GeoGorilla.com]

just spent 5 hours trying to load one 3km sqare map from delorme to topo to gps. this is the most ridiculous process i've ever seen. the software is a joke. was 'unable to make topo8 even recognize the shoddy zip file sent to me by delorme. i use many software programs everyday. who is the idiot who put this together. why should i have to use 6 (yes 6) programs to laod a map to my gps. what BS. i who has the time. no humting for me tomorrow

 

I think the problem is that pdrhound is also new to geocaching - looks like he has 14 finds. It seems like many of the "seasoned" members forget what it was like to start out geocaching! I'm still pretty new myself - but I remember when I first started out. There's a lot to take in - learning to use the GPS in a different way, signing up at Geocaching.com, learning how to hunt, understanding the rating systems, checking out forums and different websites. It can be a little overwhelming.

 

I do not have any experience with Topo8 -but I feel your pain. Hang in there and follow the advice from other posteers - you're in the right place!

[+Indotguy]

just spent 5 hours trying to load one 3km sqare map from delorme to topo to gps. this is the most ridiculous process i've ever seen. the software is a joke. was 'unable to make topo8 even recognize the shoddy zip file sent to me by delorme. i use many software programs everyday. who is the idiot who put this together. why should i have to use 6 (yes 6) programs to laod a map to my gps. what BS. i who has the time. no humting for me tomorrow

 

"Tis an ill workman that quarrels with his own tools." Don Quixote, 1696

[+Rockin Roddy]

just spent 5 hours trying to load one 3km sqare map from delorme to topo to gps. this is the most ridiculous process i've ever seen. the software is a joke. was 'unable to make topo8 even recognize the shoddy zip file sent to me by delorme. i use many software programs everyday. who is the idiot who put this together. why should i have to use 6 (yes 6) programs to laod a map to my gps. what BS. i who has the time. no humting for me tomorrow

 

I think the problem is that pdrhound is also new to geocaching - looks like he has 14 finds. It seems like many of the "seasoned" members forget what it was like to start out geocaching! I'm still pretty new myself - but I remember when I first started out. There's a lot to take in - learning to use the GPS in a different way, signing up at Geocaching.com, learning how to hunt, understanding the rating systems, checking out forums and different websites. It can be a little overwhelming.

 

I do not have any experience with Topo8 -but I feel your pain. Hang in there and follow the advice from other posteers - you're in the right place!

 

I don't care if you're a seasoned vet or a first timer, bringing a rant like this into the forums without actually outlining the problem is just that, a rant. I'd be more than happy to help should the OP bring us up to speed on the problems, I'm sure most of us are!!

 

Still wondering what the 6 programs might be...

[+Chi-Town Cacher]

Well, I don't really think my advice will help the OP since I really don't understand his problem, but I would like to throw it out for anybody who sees the title of his thread and thinks they can find the answer to their problem here.

 

I'm a new Topo 8 (T8) user since it came with my recent purchase of my PN-40. I've been really lazy lately so I have not bothered to read the owners manual that is on-line for it. The first time I tried to export aerial imagery since I skipped the reading manual step I did kind of figuratively beat my head against a wall for about an hour until I finally figured out how to do it. Then for a while life was great.

 

Then recently I started having troubles and couldn't figure out for the life of me what I was suddenly doing wrong. After a few hours of figuratively beating my head against the wall again I finally found out that just as I suspected that there was just one tiny step I was missing. You see earlier when downloading an aerial image I'd noticed a little box at one step that was checked indicating I wanted the Map Library to send maps along with my imagery. So I figure heck I'm set up great for maps and I don't need any stinkin' maps and I uncheck that box. So to put an end to my story once I rechecked that box to have maps sent with my imagery then life was great again and I could again easily load imagery.

 

I have doubts that this info will help the OP, but if anybody else is beating their head against a brick wall and getting frustrated maybe they will be able to learn from my mistake.

 

A note to the OP. After beating my head against the wall for a 2nd time I can honestly say I understand your frustration if nothing else. My best advice to you would be to post more specific information about your difficulties, because there really is a wealth of info that the experts (I'm not one) can share with you. Good luck!

[+Woodstramp]

pdrhound,

 

(Preface Note: I'm PO'd at Delorme for not fixing my "geocache glitchy in warranty" PN-20, but I will give credit where due.)

 

When I first got Delorme's Topo software it was the least attractive part of my purchase. The complexity drove me nuts at times. The nice folks at the Delorme forums helped guide through most of the log jams. Now that I've been using it a while I find I like it more with each layer of the onion. It's an acquired taste. Like smokes and coffee. Now, I can hardly start my GPS day without it.

[+hogrod]

Every time I read a review of delorme PN-XX model I ALWAYS read how crappy the topo software is, yet when ever someone new post their dislike of the software all the people who have been using the software and gotten used to the hoops you have to jump though post how it's not that bad.

 

I've been reading about the PN-XX models for sometime & heard complaints about topo6,7, & now 8. My question for all of you long time delorme users is, has delorme improved the user interface at all over all these topo version updates?

 

It would seem to me Improving their topo software that would be at the top of Delorme's list of things to do, since it's a major complaint across the board with most new Delorme Users.

[+Chi-Town Cacher]

Every time I read a review of delorme PN-XX model I ALWAYS read how crappy the topo software is, yet when ever someone new post their dislike of the software all the people who have been using the software and gotten used to the hoops you have to jump though post how it's not that bad.

 

I've been reading about the PN-XX models for sometime & heard complaints about topo6,7, & now 8. My question for all of you long time delorme users is, has delorme improved the user interface at all over all these topo version updates?

 

It would seem to me Improving their topo software that would be at the top of Delorme's list of things to do, since it's a major complaint across the board with most new Delorme Users.

Well I'm not a long time user so I can't even begin to speak for the earlier Topo versions. I can tell you that for what I need for geocaching I've taught myself everything I need to know to load maps and download aerial and satellite imagery so I'm a real happy camper.

 

I think what bests describes it's ease of use to me is that as a non tech savvy person I've taught myself without reading the owners manuals (I should have read it, but I was lazy). I guess I may not be the "typical" person, but I can assure you I've never made any claims of getting along nicely with computers or software. Yep, I had a couple sessions where I kind of figuratively beat my head against a wall for a while, but I can't complain since like I said I didn't read any owners manual so it was truely my own fault.

 

As a new user at least for what I need for geocaching I'd say it's pretty easy to use. Personally I'm a HUGE fan of the Delorme PN series GPSr's and their T8 software. So maybe they have made it easier to use on this latest version since I've done pretty good just teaching myself. I just really don't think I'm anything special for figuring out this software that really seemed pretty easy.

[+TotemLake]

Every time I read a review of delorme PN-XX model I ALWAYS read how crappy the topo software is, yet when ever someone new post their dislike of the software all the people who have been using the software and gotten used to the hoops you have to jump though post how it's not that bad.

 

I've been reading about the PN-XX models for sometime & heard complaints about topo6,7, & now 8. My question for all of you long time delorme users is, has delorme improved the user interface at all over all these topo version updates?

 

It would seem to me Improving their topo software that would be at the top of Delorme's list of things to do, since it's a major complaint across the board with most new Delorme Users.

The interface hasn't changed, but if you're asking for change towards the menu system I don't think it would work quite as well. As observed by other SW vendors, they are going back to the "ribbon" format because of studies pointing towards these formats being more productive. The problem people are facing is "learning" the format. I just saw a cool quote today and I'd like to pass this onto you for consideration:

 

“The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn.”

Alvin Toffler American Author of Science-fiction, b.1928

[+user13371]

ANYBODY can learn how to use Topo 8's user interface. But even if they do take the time to learn it, it's still poorly designed. It takes too many steps it takes to do most things.

 

It's easy to say It's complicated" -- but the idea behind a good user interface is to hide the "lot of stuff" behind the scenes and leave make the user's part easy.

 

Think about the OP's complain: I'm not sure why he needed six "programs" to download a small map area, but you need to work your way through at least that many different panels/tabs/dialog boxes within the Topo 8 program itself just to select an area and submit an order for the download. Then another set of steps to cut the part of the imagery you want to put on the GPSR. And another dance to finally PUT that image onto the PN-40.

 

Worse ... several of those steps have "gotchas" built into them, where Topo 8 will let you go PART of the way through an operation and then say "sorry, you can't do that" -- like having to be zoomed in at 11 or closer to select, different limits on how many grids you can select for each imagery type, etc...

 

The back end of that process, what the program has to do, is a lot of steps. A good user interface would hide the complexity and make the users job easier (more consistent, fewer steps).

Edited September 12, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+Rockin Roddy]

Some people seem to feel that any process should be simple (spoon fed??) and the user should be able to just think about the process and it's done...wow, I sure wish this were true (and before someone gets all crotchety and snaps that that's not what they said, I know, but seriously...). In reality, my computer was much harder to get set up the way I wish to use it, my VCR (when I had one) used to really give me fits. You mean I truly DO have to work to get what I want??

 

All the crying about how you have to set the zoom or make changes or go through a few different screens...WAH! Changing the zoom is a reasonable change since you can still zoom out, check what you're doing and then zoom back in. Of course, sometimes, I might forget to zoom in and I'll get the message reminding me...THE HORRORS!

 

Let me remind the users, this is a very powerful tool and if you don't like the "steep" learning curve, maybe you shouldn't use it? And, for those who will then say something silly like why buy the PN if you can't learn T8 (which we all truly, deep down, know this can be learned quite simply...if you try)...please point me to a mapping software that come WITH the GPS that'll do what T8 does...anyone?? Please point me to any GPS unit that supplies such a great packaged deal for such a great price....anyone?

 

It may not be for everyone, for those willing to try though, this is ONE SWEET serious tool!

[+user13371]

Yes, good user-interface should be simple. The closer you can get to "think about it and it's done," the better the design is.

 

Some companies do work at this, others need to learn it. Telling users (and potential customers) "Just live with it" doesn't lead to product improvement. Suggesting folks who don't like it are illiterate (post 14) or crybabies or maybe they shouldn't use it (post 16) doesn't improve the product either - nor does it help sell it. Rather the opposite.

 

Think about what "downloading a map" really means, in the most direct terms:

 

1) Select a region

2) Tell the program you want to download it as a certain map or image type

3) Let the program tell you how big it will be and how long it will take -- and then you accept it or go back to modify your selections.

 

That's the gist of it -- it doesn't need to be more complicated than a few mouse clicks and one or two dialogs. All of the complicated parts Topo does "behind the scenes" are going to be the same regardless of whether the user interface requires a few clicks or dozens, in one window or six.

Edited September 12, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+Rockin Roddy]

I forgot to add, I'm about as tech ignorant as you can get and guess what? I figured out everything I needed to know for doing everything I want to do with T8... and learning more as I find other uses I want to try. Was it spoon fed to me? No, I worked with it and, when needed, asked the pros. I find I'm not asking the pros very many questions, so maybe that steep learning curve spew is really HIGHLY over-rated.

 

As for simple, if someone thinks they can make a better mapping software, I wish they'd put up or... Other than that, it is what it is!

 

eta...this post might sound a bit edgy, but I am pretty tired of hearing the same comments from those who know should know better. It's easy to sit back and harp how things should be a few clicks and done, but I still haven't seen anyone come here and give an example of even ONE map software that truly IS that easy.... I'd expand my request to even include mapping software that ISN'T included with a purchase. Show me a simplistic map software that does as much as T8. I'm curious.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

[+TotemLake]

Roddy makes a good point. You also forget Lee, as desktop support I'm in the business of rolling in new products for our users to be able to do their jobs more effectively. I have yet to see one single interface fits all on the products we deal with. The users HAVE to learn, unlearn and relearn. It's a valid concept and Topo8 is no exception.

 

And you can believe me when I say I hear the frustration.

Edited September 12, 2009 by TotemLake

[+user13371]

When it comes to ease of use, a common refrain from DeLorme fans is that T8 does some things that no other product can do -- but I think that's a bit of a red herring. There are things that most consumer GPS/mapping software can do and ease of use for common features can be compared across product lines.

 

- view a map

- load maps from different packages into the viewer

- zoom in and out, pan around

- search in program the for a specific item

- select a portion of a detail map and copy it to the GPS

- mark waypoints

- create routes; either automatically getting point-to-point directions or creating your own vias

- copy waypoints, tracks, and routes to and from the GPS

 

...just to name a few.

 

A lot of different vendors' products offer these key functions. A shootout to see how many steps it takes and how consistent or easy to use these features are wouldn't be impossible. But you'd probably have to go to someone like Rich Owings, Robert Lipe, or Briansnat to find someone who has all of the different map programs and GPSRs on hand to do a fair comparison.

Edited September 12, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+user13371]

Ha, Totem Lake must have been typing at about the same time I was this morning, since I would have answered his post earlier today if I had seen it.

 

Here's the argument I'm hearing from the last couple of posters:

 

- Topo 8 does a lot of things

- Some of the things Topo 8 can do are complicated

- So... everything presented to the user will be complicated, and it can't be helped.

 

This strikes me as a mistake. Some of the things Topo does are pretty amazing, and there's not going to be any way around complexity in the user interface for some of those complicated features. But that doesn't mean everything has to be complicated -- some features can be presented to the user in extremely simple ways.

 

Going back to the original subject of this thread, how many steps should it take to select an area of a map or image, and download it to the computer? Here's a real example of a program running on a different device:

 

1) Launch the program and zoom to the area you want. Any scale you like, then touch the download button (its at the lower right of this image):

 

 

2) Make your selection. On a touch screen you'd drag your finger across, but on a computer you'd have to drag or click the mouse to the corners:

 

 

3) Answer a prompt about how many levels you want, and confirm that you watt to download it. This is akin to Topo 8's "cut levels" -- the more detail you need the bigger the download will be:

 

 

4) A few minutes later, you have the map on your device, and don't need to be online to view it.

 

.

 

It's not as easy as

, but it's not very complicated either. Why does Topo 8 needs so much more effort from the user to accomplish the same task? Edited September 13, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+TotemLake]

I still don't understand why someone thinks selecting and cutting a maps to the PN is complicated. You've merely presented a popup interface difference here that is done with buttons on Topo. The selection process is still the same.

 

The only difference with Topo versus your map program presented above? The user has to decide what map types to include into the cut... first. You don't get that choice above. So there are some decisions the user must make before beginning.

 

With programs that do only one thing, you get the luxury of making one decision. That's what makes it simple and easy to use. The lack of having to make decisions beyond the most basic makes for a simple interface, which forces the user to go to other programs to do other simple things to perform multiple functions. Technically, it then becomes more steps, and the process by definition becomes more complex. All Topo did was roll these multifunctional capabilities into one interface.

 

Once users have had a chance to use Office 2007 after griping for a couple of weeks at how confusing it is, they are glad they moved forward because now they are more productive with the interface. The same is also true of users of Topo that have taken the necessary time to learn how to use it. The ones that gripe about the complexity of it, think it should be a cake walk to do what they want. You don't get that luxury with a product capable of doing more things than the standard product that only caused them to make one or two decisions.

Edited September 13, 2009 by TotemLake

[+user13371]

WARNING: Rhetorical questions ahead...

 

I still don't understand why someone thinks selecting and cutting a maps to the PN is complicated. ...

The selection process is not complicated -- but T8 makes it seem that way with too many steps and too many constraints, in a confusing interface.

 

Once users have had a chance to use Office 2007 after griping for a couple of weeks at how confusing it is, they are glad they moved forward because now they are more productive with the interface.

I think this analogy is very, very weak. Imagine if Microsoft "improved" Word by forcing you to click on each word individually to select a block of text, and then to copy it to the clipboard you had to switch to a different program tab, click "Copy selection to clipboard," and then wait for an alert to pop up that said "Your selection was copied," and then click another button or tab somewhere to continue editing.

 

Would that make people more productive?

 

The only difference with Topo versus your map program presented above? The user has to decide what map types to include into the cut... first. You don't get that choice above. So there are some decisions the user must make before beginning.

I disagree.

 

The number of decisions the user has to make does not account for the number of steps T8 requires or how they are presented in the program. But if you think they are, explain which decisions T8 needs the user to make that led to these interface features...

• Why you have to be zoomed in to level 11 or closer to select grids?
  
• Why you can zoom in and out with the mouse, but set a different "map magnification" from the Options/View menu?
  
• Why you can't actually see a preview of the kind of data you're selecting? Aerials, topos -- you select grids looking at the basic street/topo map.
  
• Why you can't select NOAA charts from a map preview, you have to select them by chart name?
  
• Why you CAN select NOAA charts by name, but not USGS topo quads by name?
  
• Why the program doesn't tell you how many grids you're allowed to select for each data type - until you hit the limit?
  
• Why you have to click a button to add a selection to your list -- and then click another button to dismiss the alert that pops up that says "Your selection was added to the list," and then click AGAIN to "shop on" return to selecting maps?
  
• Why when you click "Checkout," you get an alert telling you how to submit an order -- and when you click the "Submit" button you get to click to close another alert telling you your order was submitted?
  
• Why once you've named a selection, you can never, ever download a selection with that same name again - even if you want to delete or replace the first one?
  

Are these extra steps and little quirks there because T8 needs the user to make a decision, or do they somehow help the user be more productive?

Edited September 13, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+Rockin Roddy]

Some people don't seem to understand how to do some of the steps or are purposely playing ignorant....just saying.

[+user13371]

Some people don't seem to understand how to do some of the steps...

You think so? I do understand how to do the steps -- but don't understand why the interface is set up the way it is.

 

Wouldn't it be easier if you could just drag a selection rectangle, right-click, and select "Download imagery..." from a pop up menu? And then be able to make the other required choices (imagery type, naming the selection) with a few boxes in one dialog, instead of multiple alerts/popsup/mouse clicks for each individual action?

Edited September 13, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+Rockin Roddy]

I still don't understand why someone thinks selecting and cutting a maps to the PN is complicated. You've merely presented a popup interface difference here that is done with buttons on Topo. The selection process is still the same.

 

The only difference with Topo versus your map program presented above? The user has to decide what map types to include into the cut... first. You don't get that choice above. So there are some decisions the user must make before beginning.

 

With programs that do only one thing, you get the luxury of making one decision. That's what makes it simple and easy to use. The lack of having to make decisions beyond the most basic makes for a simple interface, which forces the user to go to other programs to do other simple things to perform multiple functions. Technically, it then becomes more steps, and the process by definition becomes more complex. All Topo did was roll these multifunctional capabilities into one interface.

 

Once users have had a chance to use Office 2007 after griping for a couple of weeks at how confusing it is, they are glad they moved forward because now they are more productive with the interface. The same is also true of users of Topo that have taken the necessary time to learn how to use it. The ones that gripe about the complexity of it, think it should be a cake walk to do what they want. You don't get that luxury with a product capable of doing more things than the standard product that only caused them to make one or two decisions.

 

Hey TL, could you check for me, I just submitted an order and it took 2 pop-ups, one of which was be disabled with the check box option at the bottom....I could be wrong, but even if it's still 2 clicks, it's far from "multiple". While you're at that, if you could try an experiment...can you tell me if you can indeed one-click highlight multiple sections of a map to select for downloading?

 

Maybe mine is different from others'.

 

Also, while I'm thinking about it, wasn't the original gripe that it was hard to work with? What's "hard" about clicking a pop-up once or twice?

Edited September 13, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

[+user13371]

What's "hard" about clicking a pop-up once or twice?

Turn the question around: What's the advantage in adding extra, unecessary steps?

 

And off to the side: Why the resistance to suggestions that it could (and should) be easier?

[+Chi-Town Cacher]

Hey RR and everybody else! I'm about as tech savvy as a rock so I can't get into you folkes dicussion, but I saw RR ask TL if it's just his copy of T8 that will allow him to click, drag and highlight more than 1 map section at a time for downloading. Well, as you can probably guess my T8 like RR's can do that simple step and I've been doing it a lot lately while downloading aerial imagery.

 

Going off topic just a tad I'd like to thank all you folks who are educating me. I may not understand most of the tech stuff you discuss, but it is educational to see the back and forth conversations and I read every one of them. Regardless of whether you agree with me on the PN-40 being great or not I really do appreciate all you experts educating me. At least you folks don't charge me thousands of dollars for an education like a college would. Happy caching everybody!

Edited September 13, 2009 by Michigan Cacheman

[+dakboy]

Why you have to be zoomed in to level 11 or closer to select grids?

Because depending upon what size grid squares you're using to select, they may be too small to discern where you're really selecting.

Why you can't actually see a preview of the kind of data you're selecting? Aerials, topos -- you select grids looking at the basic street/topo map.

If you're talking about selecting for purchase/download, you're asking "how can I download before I download?" Which makes little sense.

 

If you're talking about a preview of what you're selecting to cut for the PN-40, I do exactly this every time. Use the lefthand pane and select the imagery type you want to view from the drop-down.

Why the program doesn't tell you how many grids you're allowed to select for each data type - until you hit the limit?

There are very few types of data, so usually after the 2nd or 3rd time, folks will tend to remember.

Why you have to click a button to add a selection to your list -- and then click another button to dismiss the alert that pops up that says "Your selection was added to the list," and then click AGAIN to "shop on" return to selecting maps?

 

Why when you click "Checkout," you get an alert telling you how to submit an order -- and when you click the "Submit" button you get to click to close another alert telling you your order was submitted?

I like the confirmation that my order has been submitted, but I do agree that when one is trying to blast through a lot of selections for download, there are a few too many prompts.

Why once you've named a selection, you can never, ever download a selection with that same name again - even if you want to delete or replace the first one?

Because that's the name used for the files that are downloaded to your hard drive.

Are these extra steps and little quirks there because T8 needs the user to make a decision, or do they somehow help the user be more productive?

Some of them are vestiges of much older versions of TopoUSA which, if removed, would be very disruptive to longtime users.

 

Others are vestiges of the old "pay per square kilometer" purchasing model. Steps which were probably put into the process to protect users from accidentally buying $10K worth of imagery.

 

Still others are to keep download sizes reasonable. Even though I get great download speeds from DeLorme, having things in bite-sized pieces no larger than about 250MB makes things more manageable.

 

There are other parts of TopoUSA that annoy me a lot more than what you posted, mostly revolving around its single-threadedness. Why can't I do anything else while downloading? Why can't it utilize more than a single processor? Why can't I do something else while it's exporting a map package?

[+Team CowboyPapa]

[*]Why the program doesn't tell you how many grids you're allowed to select for each data type - until you hit the limit?

Hey, what's unique about that?

That's how Amazon.com does it with all my credit cards on file.

Doesn't say a thing until I hit the limit!

[+user13371]

(sorry about the funny quote formatting - the online editor was giving me fits this morning)...

 

Dakboy, a reply to some pf your remarks. We're on the same page in a few places and diverge in others...

 

---

YOU: "I like the confirmation that my order has been submitted, but I do agree that when one is trying to blast through a lot of selections for download, there are a few too many prompts ... vestiges of much older versions of TopoUSA ...vestiges of the old "pay per square kilometer" purchasing model..."

 

I agree this is how the software got to be this way. I think it would benefit DeLorme and their users if newer version dropped some of this baggage.

 

---

YOU: "Steps which were probably put into the process to protect users from accidentally buying $10K worth of imagery. ... others are to keep download sizes reasonable..."

 

Yep, this is one place where you definitely need a dialog, to confirm "Yes, I really do want to download this 9000 megabyte file that's gonna cost $10,000" -- or to get a chance to say "No, cancel that." But I think you and I agree there are too many steps to this process.

 

---

YOU: "...other parts of TopoUSA that annoy me a lot more than what you posted, mostly revolving around its single-threadedness. Why can't I do anything else while downloading? Why can't it utilize more than a single processor? Why can't I do something else while it's exporting a map package?"

 

Bring it on. My earlier list of quirks and annoyances was abbreviated because I thought I was running on too long--even for me. The list of "why do they do that?" is really a lot longer than you or I could detail here.

 

But on a few other points, you and I drift a bit further apart ...

 

---

ME: "Why you can't actually see a preview of the kind of data you're selecting?"

YOU: "If you're talking about selecting for purchase-download, you're asking 'how can I download before I download?' Which makes little sense...."

 

Nope, I'm just asking why DeLorme doesn't stream a preview of the imagery while you're selecting, so you KNOW what you're selecting. Have you ever downloaded an aerial image from DeLorme and realized later it didn't really have enough detail to be worthwhile? Look at other online mapping services (Google, Terraserver, etc) that offer up imagery on demand before you tell me it can't be done.

 

---

ME: "Why you have to be zoomed in to level 11 or closer to select grids?"

YOU: "Because depending upon what size grid squares you're using to select, they may be too small to discern where you're really selecting."

 

Yes, you MAY in some cases need to zoom in to see what you're doing. That's not a good reason to disallow zooming out at other times when that may be easier.

 

---

ME: Why the program doesn't tell you how many grids you're allowed to select for each data type - until you hit the limit?

YOU: There are very few types of data, so usually after the 2nd or 3rd time, folks will tend to remember.

 

Yes, "trial and error is your friend..." -- I think that's one of Team Cowboy Papa's favorite remarks. You guys say it like it's a good thing though. I'm not keen on software that frequently interrupts what you're doing to say "Sorry, you can't do that" -- or even makes you say "Oops, I shouldn't have done that" too often.

 

---

ME: "Why once you've named a selection, you can never, ever download a selection with that same name again - even if you want to delete or replace the first one?"

YOU: "Because that's the name used for the files that are downloaded to your hard drive."

 

I know that's what blocking name re-use, I just think it's a bad limitation.

 

Going back to TotemLake's frequent analogy with Microsoft Office 2007, would you think it was a good feature if once you created a file called "MyFile.doc," you could never create another document with that name, or edit the original one to put something else in it?

 

Or would you call it bad design?

Edited September 13, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+TotemLake]

-=-=edited and integraged some of this into my response=-=- TL

 

If I've taken anything out of context, I apologize It's not my intent. I'm trying to keep an otherwise longer post short.

 

Now I can’t really and truly answer for marketing and programming decisions, but here is what I know to be a process of thinking when introducing a product line.

 

You don’t reinvent the wheel you have and alienate a customer base that’s already using the original product to introduce a new product line that works with it. It takes, time and resources and as you and others have noted, they are in it for making a profit and not be a charity. That’s a time to develop, market and profit margin decision.

 

I used the Office 2007 example because it’s the most recognized decision at moving away from a promised “we will never change the format” during the marketing of Office 2000. Folks are still having to relearn it. So much so there is a Flash program available to show them where the ribbon value is for the menu value. Regardless of your perception of the “very very weak analogy” I’m providing, it is a valid analogy and one that’s easily recognized without undue explanation. (Now imagine if Microsoft was in charge of building cars… oh, you might have heard that one. )

 

First, TopoUSA is the original product and the GPS was designed around to work with the product. Not the other way around.

 

TopoUSA also was designed for purchasing the imagery thus the shopping cart that was built into the product again before the GPS came on line.

 

All that to come to this; I mistook your post to download to the GPS. Now this has been clarified, I’ll step in once again.

 

• Why you have to be zoomed in to level 11 or closer to select grids?

 

That’s a decision I can't answer, but you can easily be zoomed out too far and select too much. At least when the user clicks on the screen when zoomed out too far, you are indeed alerted to that fact and asked if you want to be zoomed in. What’s wrong with that? You’re also advised of this zoom level so you shouldn’t be frustrated by this. This question isn’t about being difficult to use.

 

• Why you can zoom in and out with the mouse, but set a different "map magnification" from the Options/View menu?

 

Mouse functions have a specific purpose on the map screen itself. Obviously you can’t program the same clicks to do different things inside the same screen. I sometimes find myself zooming in and out to zero in on a specific location for detail. I think the Options zoom selection is ideal in this situation. This question isn’t about being difficult to use but more about the way you want to work. You can program some keyboard shortcuts, so maybe the user can customize best the way they work.

Edited to add, a zoom option function *could* be added to the map type selection. Put it in as a feature request if this is important to you.

 

• Why you can't actually see a preview of the kind of data you're selecting? Aerials, topos -- you select grids looking at the basic street/topo map.

 

Please explain how that would work without actually having the data downloaded. This appears to be a feature request and has nothing to do with being difficult to work with.

 

• Why you can't select NOAA charts from a map preview, you have to select them by chart name?

• Why you CAN select NOAA charts by name, but not USGS topo quads by name?

 

I honestly don’t have an answer for these as I don’t know how the data is being provided by the source on one versus the other. This could qualify as a difficulty question. Speculation: It may have some requirement of knowledge of how the NOAA is presented and requested from the source and not from DeLorme.

 

• Why the program doesn't tell you how many grids you're allowed to select for each data type - until you hit the limit?

 

I’ll go along with this. Running into the barrier after the fact is a little frustrating. The blue area already provides info for the zoom level for the data type, why not the number of grids and or area?

 

• Why you have to click a button to add a selection to your list -- and then click another button to dismiss the alert that pops up that says "Your selection was added to the list," and then click AGAIN to "shop on" return to selecting maps?

• Why when you click "Checkout," you get an alert telling you how to submit an order -- and when you click the "Submit" button you get to click to close another alert telling you your order was submitted?

 

I don’t get the alert your selection was added to the list. I get the opportunity to name the selection then the shopping cart option to shop on or checkout comes up. Shop on allows me to continue selecting more grids.

 

• Why once you've named a selection, you can never, ever download a selection with that same name again - even if you want to delete or replace the first one?

 

I’ll go along with this also but I wouldn’t call it a difficult issue, but a program issue. Renaming a file by one character is not difficult.

 

Seems were not talking about total difficulty of use here but frustrations on how things don’t work with the way you work .That’s an interface issue. But if you want to call that a difficulty issue, then I guess we’re saying the same thing from two directions.

Edited September 13, 2009 by TotemLake

[+TotemLake]

Hey TL, could you check for me, I just submitted an order and it took 2 pop-ups, one of which was be disabled with the check box option at the bottom....I could be wrong, but even if it's still 2 clicks, it's far from "multiple". While you're at that, if you could try an experiment...can you tell me if you can indeed one-click highlight multiple sections of a map to select for downloading?

 

Maybe mine is different from others'.

 

Also, while I'm thinking about it, wasn't the original gripe that it was hard to work with? What's "hard" about clicking a pop-up once or twice?

Funny you should ask. I just did these last week. The videos are part one and part two until I can recreate them at a lower resolution screen size and make the video size smaller. There's a little hiccup at the end of part 1 that was my fault. That's another reason for the redo that's needed.

 

Edited to update the links. I finally re-created the video and edited out the fluff to keep it under 10 minutes.

 

Edited September 14, 2009 by TotemLake

[+user13371]

Totem Lake: Yup, these posts are getting too long. Mine especially...

 

There are a few different comments of yours I'd like to address, dunno if they should be separate posts or if I should just break this one up into chapters

 

---

 

Part First:

 

As I said to Dakboy we do seem to be on the same page in at least a few places (those spots where you say you're with me, or can't answer). Where we seem to diverge mostly is on the definition of "difficult to use" -- but that might be like Clinton saying it depends on what you mean by "is."

 

More steps than needed to accomplish a given task? Presented in a confusing order? Not a difficulty issue but an interface issue? Not difficult, but just different from how I think it should work? Yeah, we could lump all those together.

 

Would you accept a summary of: "It could work better, and there are other programs in other environments that DeLorme could learn from."? I think that's more constructive than suggesting anyone who complains is stupid or illiterate, as some folks in this thread have done.

 

---

 

Part Second:

 

Similar to Dakboy, you asked what I meant by being able to preview the imagery while I'm selecting it. I mean just like Google Earth and other "on demand" providers: Put an image on your screen. If DeLorme could stream a preview image -- which does not require nearly as much data as the complete package you're requesting for download -- it would be a lot easier to make your selections and be sure you got the areas and image quality you want. Have you ever downloaded an aerial data packet and later realized you didn't get everything you needed, or the image quality wasn't what you hoped for?

 

---

 

Part Last (for now):

 

A couple of folks have mentioned they "don’t get the alert your selection was added to the list" -- I'll betcha that's one of the big improvments in T8 over version 7. I'll concede that point since I never upgraded to T8. One down and how many to go? Specific to the difference between T7 and T8, are there other significant changes in the interface for selecting map downloads?

Edited September 14, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+user13371]

...You don’t reinvent the wheel you have and alienate a customer base that’s already using the original product to introduce a new product line that works with it...

Ooh, I KNEW I missed one...

 

I gotta think carefully here so as not to violate any agreements or annoying anyone more than I already have ... hmmm... I was a beta tester for Cache Register on the Mac. I know some testers' suggestions for changing the interface were answered with "No, we're not changing that; just test it as is and tell us if the features work."

 

That could be a very reasonable response for reasons of limited resources and time -- but alienating an existing user base couldn't have been one of the concerns there.

 

Taking this back onto the original topic of TopoUSA, I don't think DeLorme's concerns about changing the interface of this product are so much about confusing or alienating existing users -- but it WOULD be a huge task. More of a resource problem than anything else.

Edited September 13, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+TotemLake]

Totem Lake: Yup, these posts are getting too long. Mine especially...

 

There are a few different comments of yours I'd like to address, dunno if they should be separate posts or if I should just break this one up into chapters

 

---

 

Part First:

 

As I said to Dakboy we do seem to be on the same page in at least a few places (those spots where you say you're with me, or can't answer). Where we seem to diverge mostly is on the definition of "difficult to use" -- but that might be like Clinton saying it depends on what you mean by "is."

 

More steps than needed to accomplish a given task? Presented in a confusing order? Not a difficulty issue but an interface issue? Not difficult, but just different from how I think it should work? Yeah, we could lump all those together.

 

Would you accept a summary of: "It could work better, and there are other programs in other environments that DeLorme could learn from."? I think that's more constructive than suggesting anyone who complains is stupid or illiterate, as some folks in this thread have done.

 

---

 

Part Second:

 

Similar to Dakboy, you asked what I meant by being able to preview the imagery while I'm selecting it. I mean just like Google Earth and other "on demand" providers: Put an image on your screen. If DeLorme could stream a preview image -- which does not require nearly as much data as the complete package you're requesting for download -- it would be a lot easier to make your selections and be sure you got the areas and image quality you want. Have you ever downloaded an aerial data packet and later realized you didn't get everything you needed, or the image quality wasn't what you hoped for?

 

---

 

Part Last (for now):

 

A couple of folks have mentioned they "don’t get the alert your selection was added to the list" -- I'll betcha that's one of the big improvments in T8 over version 7. I'll conceed that point since I never upgraded to T8. One down and how many to go? Specific to the difference between T7 and T8, are there other significant changes in the interface for selecting map downloads?

Yes I can accept the summary. I myself have commented early after receivng the PN some things can be improved upon.

 

I saw your comment to DB about GE after I had made my post. I had actually copied your post to Word so I could see the whole argument more clearly to try to keep everything in context.

 

As for previewing aerial downloads. I can see where it's useful, just not sure how it can be implemented with the program. I use GE to preview or confirm some things. I have holes in some of my downloads due to the incomplete nature of the downloaded imagery.

 

Now back to the summary and I'm going to do this at the expense of repeating myself. The GPS was designed to work with the existing product. This means there are things that can be improved upon but you don't fix what isn't broken until you're sure you have everything worked out. Then and only then can you improve upon the interface to smooth things out.

 

My biggest gripe is some things cannot be made into keyoard shortcuts inspite of the fact the customization is there. I hate despise the number of clicks all programs require when using the mouse and prefer to keep my hands on the keyboard as much as possible. It's a much smoother workflow instead of the constant interruption using the mouse represents.

 

-=-=it's that English as a second language thing again with my spelling =-=-

Edited September 13, 2009 by TotemLake

[+Team CowboyPapa]

 

Yes, "trial and error is your friend..." -- I think that's one of Team Cowboy Papa's favorite remarks. You guys say it like it's a good thing though. I'm not keen on software that frequently interrupts what you're doing to say "Sorry, you can't do that" -- or even makes you say "Oops, I shouldn't have done that" too often.

 

Roger that.

My admonition is based on the common presumption that one learns best through their mistakes.

When one accidentally does the right thing for all the wrong reasons,

one does not receive such as "Sorry, you can't do that",

consequently, the opportunity to learn does not arise.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

 

Now back to the summary and I'm going to do this at the expense of repeating myself. The GPS was designed to work with the existing product. This means there are things that can be improved upon but you don't fix what isn't broken until you're sure you have everything worked out. Then and only then can you improve upon the interface to smooth things out.

This has been my experience, exactly.

 

My first DeLorme purchase was with Topo USA 6 (pre PN version).

I bought this to work with maps on my PC at home, print them out,

and take them with me on 4WD sightseeing trips into the back country.

 

I hobbied with it at my own pace and had no other similar mapping software application

with which to compare its so called steep learning curve.

I was happy in my blissful ignorance of the difficulty that I was undergoing.

When the PN-20 became available, it seemed natural that it would be my first GPSr.

Yes, I did notice a few new features added in the bundled Topo USA 6PN to support -20 handheld.

However, they did not pose insurmountable difficulties at the time.

[+TotemLake]

A couple of folks have mentioned they "don’t get the alert your selection was added to the list" -- I'll betcha that's one of the big improvments in T8 over version 7. I'll conceed that point since I never upgraded to T8. One down and how many to go? Specific to the difference between T7 and T8, are there other significant changes in the interface for selecting map downloads?

I had to think about this one as I'm too far forward from the Topo7 now to adequately answer this. Major changes mostly related to the geocachers need for more information in the comments field and waypoint symbols along with the ability to handle fieldnotes. This WAS at the expense of many other feature requests by other users not geocaching related.

 

We geocachers in gneeral are a pretty demanding bunch for the way things need to work and I think we tend to forget we're not the only ones using these products. DeLorme spent a significant amount of time and resources to update Topo7 to Topo8 with that in mind then developed the Cache Register to enhance our experience even more at the expense of the remainder of their customer base. I think we need to allow them the breathing space they need to address those other users and bring an enhanced experience to everyone. We all benefit when this happens.

[+user13371]

TotemLake, something you just said is too good to let go but it deserves its own thread... wait for it... there!

Edited September 14, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+TotemLake]

I edited my previous post with the Youtube link that turns the NetLink tutorial to one video.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

just spent 5 hours trying to load one 3km sqare map from delorme to topo to gps. this is the most ridiculous process i've ever seen. the software is a joke. was 'unable to make topo8 even recognize the shoddy zip file sent to me by delorme. i use many software programs everyday. who is the idiot who put this together. why should i have to use 6 (yes 6) programs to laod a map to my gps. what BS. i who has the time. no humting for me tomorrow

OP got the usual flurry going from the usual suspects and then ran for cover.

Any guesses on when he will reappear?

[+Rockin Roddy]

I think the reason we see these run-arounds is because someone inevitably comes in and tells us the software is junk and too hard to learn. Quite far from the facts. Is it a program which does take a bit of getting used to, but that's far from too hard to learn. Some wonder why some of us get edgy and then change their stance to say it could be made easier if a few pop-ups are left out....yep, that's because clicking those boxes is just insanely hard to follow.

 

I'll agree things could be a bit simpler, but I'd also agree that it's quite simple as it is. As I said before, it's not hard to learn if you just give it a try. If all you do is go in and fumble around like a blind person in a newly rearranged room, you'll get pretty frustrated and I'd imagine have a bad taste in your mouth. If, however, you follow available guides and ask any questions you may have....

[+Redwoods Mtn Biker]

A lot of different vendors' products offer these key functions. A shootout to see how many steps it takes and how consistent or easy to use these features are wouldn't be impossible. But you'd probably have to go to someone like Rich Owings, Robert Lipe, or Briansnat to find someone who has all of the different map programs and GPSRs on hand to do a fair comparison.

 

You must be reading my mind. I actually have something of the sort on my to-do list. Unfortunately, there are a lot of other things on my plate these days, so I don't know when or if I will be able to do it.

[+user13371]

...A lot of different vendors' products offer these key functions. A shootout to see how many steps it takes and how consistent or easy to use these features are wouldn't be impossible....

...I actually have something of the sort on my to-do list...

That could be very interesting. Which products/vendors are on your list, and what kind of testing protocol did you have in mind?

 

Years ago, I recall that some PDA maker (may have been Palm, back when they were still part of USR) actually had software product testers keep track of how many times you had to tap the screen to get something done. But that might be a bit fussy for your kind of testing

[+Redwoods Mtn Biker]

I was thinking of a relatively simple comparison of Topo USA vs MapSource, looking at basic operations involving waypoints, tracks and routes, comparing how many clicks each took.

[+user13371]

relatively simple comparison of Topo USA vs MapSource, looking at basic operations involving waypoints, tracks and routes, comparing how many clicks each took.

Click counting is good -- also how many different panels/windows/tabs you need to work throgh to accomplish the more complicated tasks.

 

Look also at how long both programs churn away on operations they have in common, including program start-up, returning search results, building auto-calculated routes.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I was thinking of a relatively simple comparison of Topo USA vs MapSource, looking at basic operations involving waypoints, tracks and routes, comparing how many clicks each took.

 

Yep, I see this as an important measure of how "steep" a learning curve is...

[+TotemLake]

While I wouldn't call 2 more clicks in one product than some other products difficult, it can lend to frusttration and job flow interruption. Have enough of those and by some level of measure can be called difficult to work with. This is not to say it is difficult to learn and I think this is the distinction that Lee is making.

 

Personally, I hate having to mouse click through things when a keyboard entry is faster and more efficient. I shouldn't have to mouse click Ok, when an Enter should suffice as an example of some of the lack of programming. I'm currently looking through th keyboard shortcuts to see what I frequently use and am preparing a list of how I want to work with it.

[+user13371]

(TL and I typing again at the same time, apparently ... I had to answer a phone call and he got his remarks in before me...

 

Not necessarily a learning curve issue -- but counting how many steps (click counting or other steps) it takes to do something does address overall ease of use. That feeds back not only to the initial "learning curve" but how much effort you put into using the program over the long term.

 

Even so, simply click counting isn't always the best measure for ease of use -- you have to count the RIGHT clicks. E.g., if some simple action only takes one or two clicks, that might look good. But if that simple operation is something you do repeatedly, you need to figure out batch totals also.

 

That sort of "ease of use" measure does feed back to ease of learning -- but the learning curve is really made up of a lot of things. If the item you need is easily accessible and clearly labeled, that's good. If something you need is several menus or dialogs deep and labeled in a way that doesn't describe what it really does, that's bad.

 

Roddy, how would you personally measure ease of use, and ease of learning?

Edited September 16, 2009 by lee_rimar