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Tydog07

I need help deciding on a paperless GPS

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We'll see.. :P I do want to support them, and if I DO pay the membership it would only be to pitch in and help, not for the benefits that come with it. I know I would never use the PQs and all of that...

Don't say that till you've tried it. PQs making planning caching outings, especially road trips, much easier. And better planning translates to more fun caching.

OK, brand new here, and I plan to get a PM, but just curious (forgive my not knowing) but how is the PQ much better than "send to gps" for the cache file?

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We'll see.. :P I do want to support them, and if I DO pay the membership it would only be to pitch in and help, not for the benefits that come with it. I know I would never use the PQs and all of that...

Don't say that till you've tried it. PQs making planning caching outings, especially road trips, much easier. And better planning translates to more fun caching.

OK, brand new here, and I plan to get a PM, but just curious (forgive my not knowing) but how is the PQ much better than "send to gps" for the cache file?

 

It's the same as send to in that you get all the info (if PM of course) sent right to the unit, but you can download up to 500 caches at one time! Actually, the PQ is a better option since (as I just found out today) the PQ counts as one gpx file where each send to counts as a single file...

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It's the same as send to in that you get all the info (if PM of course) sent right to the unit, but you can download up to 500 caches at one time! Actually, the PQ is a better option since (as I just found out today) the PQ counts as one gpx file where each send to counts as a single file...

OK, one last question :P With the PM, does the PQ contain more info, i.e. - description, some of the logs or even the hint? Because if those are there, that in and of itself is worth more than the PM cost, imo.

 

And my apologies if this is derailing the thread.

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It's the same as send to in that you get all the info (if PM of course) sent right to the unit, but you can download up to 500 caches at one time! Actually, the PQ is a better option since (as I just found out today) the PQ counts as one gpx file where each send to counts as a single file...

OK, one last question :P With the PM, does the PQ contain more info, i.e. - description, some of the logs or even the hint? Because if those are there, that in and of itself is worth more than the PM cost, imo.

 

And my apologies if this is derailing the thread.

 

With a PM, you get all the info just like you were reading the cache page...minus the pics of course. PQs are the way to go, it makes life much simpler! Of courde, you also get all the info with the send to once you're a PM!

Edited by Rockin Roddy

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With a PM, you get all the info just like you were reading the cache page...minus the pics of course. PQs are the way to go, it makes life much simpler! Of courde, you also get all the info with the send to once you're a PM!

Thanks, I had to ask because of this post earlier in the thread, and I was thinking of getting the Vista and hoping to be paperless, but this answer had me thinking it wouldn't work (maybe because the OP didn't want to get a PM?) But if the PM and the PQ's give the description, hints and logs (at least some) then it is the way I will go. I was considering the Venture as well.

Neither of those units are "paperless" as we define paperless caching. You cannot load a complete cache description, logs and hints into them. You can load a very small subset of information that will help you find the cache. But they are not paperless.

 

I have a 60CSx and IMO it is the best GPS out there. I also have an Oregon 300 and it is great for paperless.

 

You should rethink your PM decision. It is the best money you will spend. But that is up to you.

 

Good luck.

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With a PM, you get all the info just like you were reading the cache page...minus the pics of course. PQs are the way to go, it makes life much simpler! Of courde, you also get all the info with the send to once you're a PM!

Thanks, I had to ask because of this post earlier in the thread, and I was thinking of getting the Vista and hoping to be paperless, but this answer had me thinking it wouldn't work (maybe because the OP didn't want to get a PM?) But if the PM and the PQ's give the description, hints and logs (at least some) then it is the way I will go. I was considering the Venture as well.

Neither of those units are "paperless" as we define paperless caching. You cannot load a complete cache description, logs and hints into them. You can load a very small subset of information that will help you find the cache. But they are not paperless.

 

I have a 60CSx and IMO it is the best GPS out there. I also have an Oregon 300 and it is great for paperless.

 

You should rethink your PM decision. It is the best money you will spend. But that is up to you.

 

Good luck.

 

Tequila's comment is spot on, weithre of those units are paperless regardless of if you are a PM or not. The only truly paperless GPS units out today are the Garmin CO and OR eries and the DeLorme series. These are the only two which can hook up and transfer the field notes back from the GPS to the computer meaning your logged finds on your GPS go directly to the coputer for simpler logging.

 

I think there are a few other models which can load info to the GPS like Magellan and Lowrance, but they can't load the field notes (if memory serves)...but the Vista and Venture are definitely not paperless at any case. With these two, you can only get very limited info to the GPS no matter if you're a PM or not! I hope this helps...

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...The only truly paperless GPS units out today are the Garmin CO and OR eries and the DeLorme series. These are the only two which can hook up and transfer the field notes back from the GPS to the computer meaning your logged finds on your GPS go directly to the coputer for simpler logging.
You forgot the Apple iPhone,. It can download PQs directly. It can also log finds from the field, not just make field notes to upload later...

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I would really not consider either of those units a paperless unit. Sure there is some multistep process to get the info over to the unit spread across multiple POi points per cache but not fully paperless like the Colorado or Oregon units.

 

Of the 2 - the clear winner is the 60CSx - but it just doesn't meet all your criteria.

 

Might look into a Lowrance Endura Out&back unit - brand new but I have one and thus far (despite a few quirks) it is working rather well.

 

The only paperless unit that fits the OPs criteria is clearly the PN-20.

Rockin Roddy,

have you had a chance to "test" the new lowrance endura? I'm leaning towards the PN-30 but sure like the screen size of the Endura. I've been using my mag.exp 600 for quite a while and have been used to the small screen size like the PN-30. But, it sure would be nice to have the larger screen of the Endura-if it can "matchup" similar to the PN-30.

thanks

 

Sorry, no. I wish I could afford to go out and test it, just not an option for me at this time! You might post a new thread asking about a comparison between the two though, I would bet some have used the Endura! :( I haven't heard a lot about the Endura which is probably a good thing since most people complain more than praise...if you know what I mean!!

 

As to screen size, I have used the OR 300 for a little more than a week and I must say, the smaller screen of the PN-40 (which I also own at this time...the OR is going back) really isn't an issue for me and I didn't really even notice a benefit when using the OR...the size difference isn't all that much...IMHO!

 

we looked at Endura over weekend and it seemed really nice, but they switched to the smaller sd card and don't have maps available as yet -- there's some question on how long it will be before you can purchase maps.

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...The only truly paperless GPS units out today are the Garmin CO and OR eries and the DeLorme series. These are the only two which can hook up and transfer the field notes back from the GPS to the computer meaning your logged finds on your GPS go directly to the coputer for simpler logging.
You forgot the Apple iPhone,. It can download PQs directly. It can also log finds from the field, not just make field notes to upload later...

 

:( I'll stick with the dedicated handhelds! Phones might do the things we want, but I wouldn't count them as a GPS just yet (this may change in the future with new releases of course). One reason, the phones are not made to be abused like most GPS units are (abused that is lol), getting wet, being dropped and scratched and...most phones are a bit "dainty" for regular usage as a GPS...IMHO.

 

Also, I believe (and could be wrong) you need signal in order for the phone to work? While sat signal is nearly worldwide (or is, just not as strong in some areas), phones are limited to where there are towers to bounce their signal to the phone and vice versa.

 

Just my thoughts, others are free to have their own! :)

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Tequila's comment is spot on, weithre of those units are paperless regardless of if you are a PM or not. The only truly paperless GPS units out today are the Garmin CO and OR eries and the DeLorme series. These are the only two which can hook up and transfer the field notes back from the GPS to the computer meaning your logged finds on your GPS go directly to the coputer for simpler logging.

 

I think there are a few other models which can load info to the GPS like Magellan and Lowrance, but they can't load the field notes (if memory serves)...but the Vista and Venture are definitely not paperless at any case. With these two, you can only get very limited info to the GPS no matter if you're a PM or not! I hope this helps...

OK, I got it now. I am a beginner at this (1 week) and trying to get the terminology down. I don't mind having a notepad with me in the field for note taking on the caches that I find to input upon my return. It was a tossup between the Venture HC and Vista HCx for me and while the price/feature of the Venture was tempting for me, I believe I will go with the Vista and a PM at GC. I think the battery life, sd slot, extra waypoints etc.. will justify the extra $ for me. I also like being able to load a large area of maps and not have to worry about swapping maps if I go outside my area. I will probably use GSAK for a limited amount of POI's, not sure I want to have 20 POI's for each location :( As I have a Blackberry, I can connect if I need any extra info :)

 

You guys have been great with the info, Thank You very much.

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Tequila's comment is spot on, weithre of those units are paperless regardless of if you are a PM or not. The only truly paperless GPS units out today are the Garmin CO and OR eries and the DeLorme series. These are the only two which can hook up and transfer the field notes back from the GPS to the computer meaning your logged finds on your GPS go directly to the coputer for simpler logging.

 

I think there are a few other models which can load info to the GPS like Magellan and Lowrance, but they can't load the field notes (if memory serves)...but the Vista and Venture are definitely not paperless at any case. With these two, you can only get very limited info to the GPS no matter if you're a PM or not! I hope this helps...

OK, I got it now. I am a beginner at this (1 week) and trying to get the terminology down. I don't mind having a notepad with me in the field for note taking on the caches that I find to input upon my return. It was a tossup between the Venture HC and Vista HCx for me and while the price/feature of the Venture was tempting for me, I believe I will go with the Vista and a PM at GC. I think the battery life, sd slot, extra waypoints etc.. will justify the extra $ for me. I also like being able to load a large area of maps and not have to worry about swapping maps if I go outside my area. I will probably use GSAK for a limited amount of POI's, not sure I want to have 20 POI's for each location :( As I have a Blackberry, I can connect if I need any extra info :P

 

You guys have been great with the info, Thank You very much.

 

Not trying to sway you away from any one unit, but can I ask why you're going with the Vista? I know you said paperless isn't a concern, but I do hate to see someone make a purchase only to want to upgrade a month or so later...upgrading after the fact is costly since you now have bought two units! :) Make sure you've mulled over your options well and go with what you think will make you happiest with the money you can spare, that's my best advice!

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Not trying to sway you away from any one unit, but can I ask why you're going with the Vista? I know you said paperless isn't a concern, but I do hate to see someone make a purchase only to want to upgrade a month or so later...upgrading after the fact is costly since you now have bought two units! :( Make sure you've mulled over your options well and go with what you think will make you happiest with the money you can spare, that's my best advice!

Since we just started and not sure if this will be a long lasting sport for us, I was a bit hesitant on spending big bucks and was looking in the $150 range. After A LOT of reading it looks like the breaking areas are the $140 Venture in the entry area and then the CO or OR for the more "advanced" cachers. I don't think I could justify ~$400 at this point (5 caches found with a borrowed etrex H). If after trying this for a year or so I find that we thoroughly enjoy it and it will be a lifelong thing for us, then I may go for the upper end, and either sell the Vista or keep it for a backup.

 

What unit did you have in mind, was it the CO or OR?

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Not trying to sway you away from any one unit, but can I ask why you're going with the Vista? I know you said paperless isn't a concern, but I do hate to see someone make a purchase only to want to upgrade a month or so later...upgrading after the fact is costly since you now have bought two units! :( Make sure you've mulled over your options well and go with what you think will make you happiest with the money you can spare, that's my best advice!

Since we just started and not sure if this will be a long lasting sport for us, I was a bit hesitant on spending big bucks and was looking in the $150 range. After A LOT of reading it looks like the breaking areas are the $140 Venture in the entry area and then the CO or OR for the more "advanced" cachers. I don't think I could justify ~$400 at this point (5 caches found with a borrowed etrex H). If after trying this for a year or so I find that we thoroughly enjoy it and it will be a lifelong thing for us, then I may go for the upper end, and either sell the Vista or keep it for a backup.

 

What unit did you have in mind, was it the CO or OR?

 

You can buy the DeLorme PN-20 for $140 right now on amazon.com! It's way ahead of the Garmins in this same price range since it does paperless, routes and can have maps loaded to it! The PN-20 is a bit slow on redraws, but it functions very well for caching and is (IMHO) way ahead of the older Garmin lines you're contemplating!

 

MHO...if you don't like the DeLorme, you can return it for a full refund, but it'll give you a chance totry it out!

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You can buy the DeLorme PN-20 for $140 right now on amazon.com! It's way ahead of the Garmins in this same price range since it does paperless, routes and can have maps loaded to it! The PN-20 is a bit slow on redraws, but it functions very well for caching and is (IMHO) way ahead of the older Garmin lines you're contemplating!

 

MHO...if you don't like the DeLorme, you can return it for a full refund, but it'll give you a chance totry it out!

OK, great, now you've done it :( I never even looked at the PN-20, stuck to the etrex since that was what I was using.

 

Will I notice the slow redraw while using it for hiking geocaching, what about biking to a cache site? Is the redraw "that" bad?

 

Also what are the difference between the PN-20 and the Vista/Venture? Does it have the same transfer from GC that the Garmins have?

 

I am not opposed to this at all, it is actually tempting?

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You can buy the DeLorme PN-20 for $140 right now on amazon.com! It's way ahead of the Garmins in this same price range since it does paperless, routes and can have maps loaded to it! The PN-20 is a bit slow on redraws, but it functions very well for caching and is (IMHO) way ahead of the older Garmin lines you're contemplating!

 

MHO...if you don't like the DeLorme, you can return it for a full refund, but it'll give you a chance totry it out!

OK, great, now you've done it :( I never even looked at the PN-20, stuck to the etrex since that was what I was using.

 

Will I notice the slow redraw while using it for hiking geocaching, what about biking to a cache site? Is the redraw "that" bad?

 

Also what are the difference between the PN-20 and the Vista/Venture? Does it have the same transfer from GC that the Garmins have?

 

I am not opposed to this at all, it is actually tempting?

 

You will not notice a problem either walking or bicycling to a cache! You can load caches with the send to just like the Garmins, you can load PQs via Cache Register (an extra $10 charge)...both of these are simple one button procedures and just as or even simpler than the Garmins!

 

The differences are, you get paperless caching, routing, the ability to add maps like aerial imagery and NOAA charts with a maps subscription ($30/yr) and all the maps you need are already in the box (the map sub is for other maps listed and not needed for operation of any functions). You also get Topo 8, a great map software which is really a powerful tool!

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You can buy the DeLorme PN-20 for $140 right now on amazon.com! It's way ahead of the Garmins in this same price range since it does paperless, routes and can have maps loaded to it! The PN-20 is a bit slow on redraws, but it functions very well for caching and is (IMHO) way ahead of the older Garmin lines you're contemplating!

 

MHO...if you don't like the DeLorme, you can return it for a full refund, but it'll give you a chance totry it out!

OK, great, now you've done it :( I never even looked at the PN-20, stuck to the etrex since that was what I was using.

 

Will I notice the slow redraw while using it for hiking geocaching, what about biking to a cache site? Is the redraw "that" bad?

 

Also what are the difference between the PN-20 and the Vista/Venture? Does it have the same transfer from GC that the Garmins have?

 

I am not opposed to this at all, it is actually tempting?

 

You will not notice a problem either walking or bicycling to a cache! You can load caches with the send to just like the Garmins, you can load PQs via Cache Register (an extra $10 charge)...both of these are simple one button procedures and just as or even simpler than the Garmins!

 

The differences are, you get paperless caching, routing, the ability to add maps like aerial imagery and NOAA charts with a maps subscription ($30/yr) and all the maps you need are already in the box (the map sub is for other maps listed and not needed for operation of any functions). You also get Topo 8, a great map software which is really a powerful tool!

Hey Rod. When you get bored check your E-Mail. Not only have you about convinced the OP, but I'm about ready to get off the Garmin Vista bandwagon and jump over to the PN bandwagon with you. I think for all your good P.R. work Delorme or whoever manufactures the PNs should give you free GPSrs for the rest of your life. There's nobody I've seen as dedicated to their brand as you are. I see lots of others say they are good units, but nobody does it with your level of conviction. I look forward to hearing from you. Robert (Michigan Cacheman) :)

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...I'll stick with the dedicated handhelds! Phones might do the things we want, but I wouldn't count them as a GPS just yet ...
Roddy, you have a point - but you're missing a bigger one.

 

Point taken: The iPhone is not an, all-weather, outdoor, rugged device.

 

But what you missed: When the discussion is paperless caching, you shouldn't dismiss the iPhone. Rugged or not, it is a real GPS, it does paperless better than anything else out there, and is incredibly easy to use. And this is just a tiny fraction of what the iPhone can do. Specialization is for insects.

 

The point is not that everyone should pitch their other GPS in favor of the iPhone. But Garmin, DeLorme, etc... should be looking to the iPhone to see how to implement these features.

 

Evolve or die. I think Garmin gets it. DeLorme might, but I'm not sure they're moving in the right direction quickly enough.

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Hey Rod. When you get bored check your E-Mail. Not only have you about convinced the OP, but I'm about ready to get off the Garmin Vista bandwagon and jump over to the PN bandwagon with you. I think for all your good P.R. work Delorme or whoever manufactures the PNs should give you free GPSrs for the rest of your life. There's nobody I've seen as dedicated to their brand as you are. I see lots of others say they are good units, but nobody does it with your level of conviction. I look forward to hearing from you. Robert (Michigan Cacheman) :(

Happy customers are the best salesmen/advertising, and the least expensive.

 

Garmin is, from what I've gathered, the Microsoft of the GPS world. Many people use their products because "everybody uses a Garmin" and don't even realize there are other players that are just as good, if not better in some respects.

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But what you missed: When the discussion is paperless caching, you shouldn't dismiss the iPhone. Rugged or not, it is a real GPS, it does paperless better than anything else out there, and is incredibly easy to use. And this is just a tiny fraction of what the iPhone can do. Specialization is for insects.

 

The point is not that everyone should pitch their other GPS in favor of the iPhone. But Garmin, DeLorme, etc... should be looking to the iPhone to see how to implement these features.

Which features does the iPhone have for geocaching that Garmin & DeLorme don't have? Aside from the ones that require you have a phone/data signal, not just GPS reception.

 

Over the life of the device, the iPhone (if you can avoid destroying it in the wilderness) will cost you a lot more than any other GPS. If you already have one, or are on AT&T and are OK with buying one and taking on the extra monthly charges that it requires, have fun.

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...what are the difference between the PN-20 and the Vista/Venture? Does it have the same transfer from GC that the Garmins have?
Radak, if you're not interested in paperless caching or the advanced features, any of the current Garmin's you've bene looking at are a better choice (a better GPS) than the DeLorme PN-20.

 

The PN-20 is an older model with a poorer receiver, less accurate, and slower than the PN-30 and PN-40. If you really CAN'T afford a -30 or -40, but you think you MUST have paperless caching and a wider range of maps and imagery to load on the GPS then maybe a -20 is a way to go. But if you have to stay in your budget and speed/accuracy of the device is more important than cool maps/paperless caching, then you can find a better Garmin in your price range.

 

And of course, prices are slippery. Between the time I hit "send" and you hit "read" -- something might go on sale somewhere that throws all of thos considerations out the window :(

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...what are the difference between the PN-20 and the Vista/Venture? Does it have the same transfer from GC that the Garmins have?
Radak, if you're not interested in paperless caching or the advanced features, any of the current Garmin's you've bene looking at are a better choice (a better GPS) than the DeLorme PN-20.

 

The PN-20 is an older model with a poorer receiver, less accurate, and slower than the PN-30 and PN-40. If you really CAN'T afford a -30 or -40, but you think you MUST have paperless caching and a wider range of maps and imagery to load on the GPS then maybe a -20 is a way to go. But if you have to stay in your budget and speed/accuracy of the device is more important than cool maps/paperless caching, then you can find a better Garmin in your price range.

 

And of course, prices are slippery. Between the time I hit "send" and you hit "read" -- something might go on sale somewhere that throws all of thos considerations out the window :(

 

The PN-20 is a bit newer than either the Garmins mentioned, is it not?

 

While I do agree it's slower, I would have to say the accuracy is as good or better than the Garmins...but this is merely from what I've read and heard. As to the slower redraws being an issue, no, not at all. Especially if you're walking or biking as was earlier asked...this too is from what I have heard (and from many in here who do own a PN-20...a quick search will bring up that info if someome so desired).

 

Radak, I could care less what you buy, you should buy what will make you happiest! To that end, I can only make suggestions and give opinions...which I have and will continue to do! For you to be totally satisfied (which is my goal) you should go to a store and check out the units you are interested in...live! Also, try to find people who have the units you are contemplating and ask to get a hands-on experience with them, it's the best way to assure you'll be a happy buyer!

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Roddy, even though it LOOKS like a PN-40 in a yellow case and has the same basic user interface, the internals are very different. The PN-20 is a poorer GPS (in terms of sensitivity, accuracy, and speed) than the PN-30 and PN-40, as well as any of the "H" series eTrex models.

 

The PN-20's value is as a package, not it's standing purely as a GPS. It's a bargain for what it does, if you want paperless and the wide range of map choices nothing else can touch it at that price. But if you want a simple, accurate GPS on a budget, and don't need the advanced features -- there are better choices.

 

Of course, if you want to cling to the idea that paperless is paramount, I'll hold my iPhone up again and laugh at your silly cache widget :(

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Roddy, even though it LOOKS like a PN-40 in a yellow case and has the same basic user interface, the internals are very different. The PN-20 is a poorer GPS (in terms of sensitivity, accuracy, and speed) than the PN-30 and PN-40, as well as any of the "H" series eTrex models.

 

The PN-20's value is as a package, not it's standing purely as a GPS. It's a bargain for what it does, if you want paperless and the wide range of map choices nothing else can touch it at that price. But if you want a simple, accurate GPS on a budget, and don't need the advanced features -- there are better choices.

 

Of course, if you want to cling to the idea that paperless is paramount, I'll hold my iPhone up again and laugh at your silly cache widget :P

 

Are you saying all those owners of the PN-20 who have said their unit is fairly accurate were mistaken?

 

I would say that, while it may not be the very best unit on the market, it IS a good choice regardless of whether it's the same as a PN-30 or PN-40! I am not saying that accuracy isn't important, and I'm certainly not saying paperless is better than having a signal lock...I'm saying the PN-20 is a good unit for the price. I would certainly choose it over the "H" models anyday!

 

As for the phone, wanna hook that puppy to my kayak and test that out?? :):( We won't even concern ourselves with the "silly" comment, I believe you've said the widgit is a great deal...

 

BTW...Lee, can you tell me, what is the TITLE of this thread?? maybe it isn't actually ME who is concerned about paperless?? I answer the quesions posed to me. Can those "H" models do paperless?? NO? hmmmmm.....

Edited by Rockin Roddy

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Of course, if you want to cling to the idea that paperless is paramount, I'll hold my iPhone up again and laugh at your silly cache widget :(

And then, when your iPhone slips out of your hand in the rain and lands on a rock or gets bumped off a log into a puddle, everyone else will laugh at your silly $400 pile of destroyed electronics. :)

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Which features does the iPhone have for geocaching that Garmin & DeLorme don't have? Aside from the ones that require you have a data signal...
Just an infinitely better user interface and the ability to do myriad things other things that have to nothing to do with geocaching. But how useful is and Garmin and DeLorme for geocaching without a connection to a computer and internet access?

 

...the iPhone...will cost you a lot more than any other GPS.
Yep. And a computer will cost you a lot more than a pad of paper and a pen.

 

:(:)

 

Can we both stop being silly and look at what the iPhone DOES, rather than whinging about how it COSTS MONEY and only it's only useful if you can connect it to the network once in a while?

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Of course, if you want to cling to the idea that paperless is paramount, I'll hold my iPhone up again and laugh at your silly cache widget :(

And then, when your iPhone slips out of your hand in the rain and lands on a rock or gets bumped off a log into a puddle, everyone else will laugh at your silly $400 pile of destroyed electronics. :)

........while I pick my Garmin up and continue caching.

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...what is the TITLE of this thread?? maybe it isn't actually ME who is concerned about paperless?? I answer the quesions posed to me. Can those "H" models do paperless?? NO? hmmmmm....
Actually Roddy, this thread has drifted all over the place, as many of them do. The OP wants paperless and advanced features on the cheap (doesn't even want to pay for a permium membership); and other folks have chimed in about just getting a GPS that's a good GPS, and don't care about paperless.

 

For the OP, the PN-20 is might look like a good choice. It's just not as good a GPS -- by a long shot -- as many of the others that have been mentioned here.

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...As for the phone, wanna hook that puppy to my kayak and test that out?? :):(
Sure. You buy me an Otterbox or Aquapak first and off we go.

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...when your iPhone slips out of your hand in the rain and lands on a rock or gets bumped off a log into a puddle, everyone else will laugh at your silly $400 pile of destroyed electronics. :(
Or gets run over by a truck, perhaps?

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mikebeauchamp/2215285685/

 

BTW, my iPhone only cost $200.

No, up front it cost you $200. The remainder of the cost is amortized every month when you send a check to AT&T.

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Which features does the iPhone have for geocaching that Garmin & DeLorme don't have? Aside from the ones that require you have a data signal...
Just an infinitely better user interface and the ability to do myriad things other things that have to nothing to do with geocaching.
I asked specifically about geocaching features. A "better" UI is a very subjective measure.
But how useful is and Garmin and DeLorme for geocaching without a connection to a computer and internet access?
I only need to get connected before I hit the trails. No connection required in the field. I don't understand what your point is here. Paperless or not, iPhone, Garmin, DeLorme, Lowrance, Magellan, GeoMate Jr. - no matter what, eventually you have to get online to log your finds or check whether a cache exist. Who's being "silly" (your word) now?

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Which features does the iPhone have for geocaching that Garmin & DeLorme don't have? Aside from the ones that require you have a data signal...
Just an infinitely better user interface and the ability to do myriad things other things that have to nothing to do with geocaching. But how useful is and Garmin and DeLorme for geocaching without a connection to a computer and internet access?

 

...the iPhone...will cost you a lot more than any other GPS.
Yep. And a computer will cost you a lot more than a pad of paper and a pen.

 

:(:)

 

Can we both stop being silly and look at what the iPhone DOES, rather than whinging about how it COSTS MONEY and only it's only useful if you can connect it to the network once in a while?

 

Sure, if you'll stop touting that phone as if it's the best thing for caching....

 

I wouldn't be the one in need of an otterbox btw, my PN-40 is waterproof. I believe it would be your phone you should be concerned about! Is that your answer? Wrap that phone up like a mummy and hope it'll survive? I'd rather have the ability to actually USE my GPS as opposed to wishing I didn't have to open the box every time I wanted to fiddle with the buttons (which, btw, is fairly often for me since I love to toggle the ma and compass as well as the sat screen...oh, and check on close caches). Btw, I'm usually a bit wet when out kayaking, would it be OK if I dripped all over that phone while slapping the buttons with my wet fingers?

 

On topic, the ONLY true choice the OP has (if paperless is a concern) is the PN-20. Nothing else will do what it does for the price range given...unless maybe the new Lowrance, but I have no knowledge of that unit!

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.. if you'll stop touting that phone as if it's the best thing for caching....
Go back and read what I said Roddy.

 

Quick recap: You listed a few different devices as the "only" ones that would do paperless caching. I pointed out that the iPhone would also work for paperless caching, and that in that one specific respect it left everything else behind.

 

You have a terrible habit of "package dealing" what other folks, say and trying to put words in their mouth. If someone says "Product X doesn't do this one thing very well" you counter with "So you're saying it's junk?" I said the iPhone does paperless caching better than anything else available, and other vendors should look to it for ideas -- but you counter by attributing something much broader to me, that I didn't say.

 

Now, if you wish to counter the point I actually stated, go for it. I even went back and put it in a different color for you, if that helps.

Edited by lee_rimar

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.. if you'll stop touting that phone as if it's the best thing for caching....
Go back and read what I said Roddy.

 

Quick recap: You listed a few different devices as the "only" ones that would do paperless caching. I pointed out that the iPhone would also work for paperless caching, and that in that one specific respect it left everything else behind.

 

You have a terrible habit of "package dealing" what other folks, say and trying to put words in their mouth. If someone says "Product X doesn't do this one thing very well" you counter with "So you're saying it's junk?" I said the iPhone does paperless caching better than anything else available, and other vendors should look to it for ideas -- but you counter by attributing something much broader to me, that I didn't say.

 

Now, if you wish to counter the point I actually stated, go for it. I even went back and put it in a different color for you, if that helps.

 

Lee, truly, give it a rest. Touting the PHONE as a GPS is silly at best, but you can have fun and use one all you wish! I am fairly certain there might even be others who would use the PHONE as a GPS, but a few at best. For those of us who are SERIOUS, using a rugged and reliable (as in NOT relying on a phone signal...we all know sat signals are everywhere....can you say that for that phone?) GPS instead of a PHONE would be the proper choice, but I'm certain you are intelligent enough to know this!

 

Do you want to suggest to the OP that they should go right out and buy that PHONE you are harping about, or are you just wasting the OP's time and derailing the OPs thread?? I bet I know both answers although you might feel up to playing more of this game... :(

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Tequila's comment is spot on, weithre of those units are paperless regardless of if you are a PM or not. The only truly paperless GPS units out today are the Garmin CO and OR eries and the DeLorme series. These are the only two which can hook up and transfer the field notes back from the GPS to the computer meaning your logged finds on your GPS go directly to the coputer for simpler logging.

 

I think there are a few other models which can load info to the GPS like Magellan and Lowrance, but they can't load the field notes (if memory serves)...but the Vista and Venture are definitely not paperless at any case. With these two, you can only get very limited info to the GPS no matter if you're a PM or not! I hope this helps...

OK, I got it now. I am a beginner at this (1 week) and trying to get the terminology down. I don't mind having a notepad with me in the field for note taking on the caches that I find to input upon my return. It was a tossup between the Venture HC and Vista HCx for me and while the price/feature of the Venture was tempting for me, I believe I will go with the Vista and a PM at GC. I think the battery life, sd slot, extra waypoints etc.. will justify the extra $ for me. I also like being able to load a large area of maps and not have to worry about swapping maps if I go outside my area. I will probably use GSAK for a limited amount of POI's, not sure I want to have 20 POI's for each location :( As I have a Blackberry, I can connect if I need any extra info :P

 

You guys have been great with the info, Thank You very much.

 

Not trying to sway you away from any one unit, but can I ask why you're going with the Vista? I know you said paperless isn't a concern, but I do hate to see someone make a purchase only to want to upgrade a month or so later...upgrading after the fact is costly since you now have bought two units! :) Make sure you've mulled over your options well and go with what you think will make you happiest with the money you can spare, that's my best advice!

 

Sorry to take this thread back to where it's come from, but I really want to chime in about Rods comment up above this sentence. You are so right it's scary. I'm a pretty new cacher, but here's my caching life story. I bought a Magellan eXplorist 500 on eBay for just when I went wandering in the woods since I'm too old to be getting lost and sleeping on the ground while waiting for either me to find my way out or for somebody to come get me.

 

Then I discovered geocaching and was immediately hooked. My Magellan performed nicely and I found a lot of caches with it and you'll never hear me badmouth the eXplorist line of GPS because it served me good. I heard horror stories about bad customer service from Magellan, but I never had to contact them so I don't know anything about that.

 

The more I got to thinking about it the more I wanted to get PQs to download to a GPSr. I'd heard you could do it with a Magellan, but you had to do a little work around to get it to work and I didn't feel like hassling with that. So I sold my eXplorist and invested in a Garmin Vista HCx for $219 after you add the tax (I had to buy a topo map too but we won't add that in the price even though it should be).

 

Well, there certainly was a lot to like about my new Vista HCx and generally it performed well and even continued to work good after it was left on my car and I drove off and it fell onto the paved entrance ramp to the the interstate. The joy of loading PQs was a great thing! I instantly figured out that if I could find any way to afford it I would never go back to loading coordinates by hand again so I try my best to always stay a PM.

 

Fast forward to today. My Vista HCx is in the Garmin shop for warranty repairs (the rubber banding that goes around the outer edge that I think waterproofs it is falling off, I think I've read this is kind of common) and I'm reading through the forum and see that for considerably less than what I spent I could have been paperless caching with a PN-20 all this time! When my Vista HCx comes back from Garmin I will be selling it to somebody else and let them enjoy it since it really is a good unit. Then I will be turning around and buying a PN-20 or 30 (whichever my budget will stretch to accomodate). Then I'll hopefully be joining Rod and singing the praises of the PNs.

 

Well, before I go out and sell my Vista and buy a PN I will be going across the state to visit Rod so he can show me what he's so excited about. Then if it's half as good as he says I'll be making the transition to the PN bandwagon.

 

So, yeah do your research and get the best you can for your expected needs so you don't end up constantly upgrading like I've done. Good luck to everybody that's in the market for a new GPS. It can seem daunting to do all the research before the purchase, but you don't want to be like me and make purchases that you keep turning around and selling for a loss.

 

Rod, thanks so much for all the info on PNs. I'll be getting with you soon so you can give me a hands on intro to the the PN product before I commit to jumping ship to the PNs. Maybe I won't jump ship after seeing it for myself, but the way Rod describes it I'd be surprised if I didn't love it. :P

 

P.S. Sorry this has turned into such a long post. I'd just hate for newer folks to make the same expensive mistakes I've made. Shop wisely the first time so you don't have to do it again for several years. By not shopping wisely I'm now in the market for my 3rd GPSr in slightly less than a year. Oh well, maybe somebody else can learn from my mistakes. :)

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...Do you want to suggest to the OP that they should go right out and buy that PHONE you are harping about
Nope, that's just your imagination running wild again. Everything I've said relevant to the iPhone & paperless in this thread is in posts 57, 67, and 83. Go read them again. Or don't, your choice.

 

Have a nice night.

Edited by lee_rimar

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.... "package dealing" .....

I call it subject shifting, but as I offer that nugget the object is not to commence a lexicological argument.

 

However, back to the subject, I do not see the iPhone and the PN-40 as mutually exclusive.

As I have communicated to Lee in the past, I have a geocaching, friend and neighbor who has both and uses one or the other depending on which one is most appropriate at the time.

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I had a yellow etrex h and then i thought to get a delorme pn-20 after i saw the "value" they offered. The processor is slow, plus it chews batteries at a rapid rate, which is bad for the day hiker. The software isnt easy to use either. There is a steep learning curve. I returned it because of battery chewing and it lost reception in thick tree cover (not even in a valley), not for the software because i dont mind learning something but with the other issues, it wasn't worth the effort. I can see the 30 or 40 being good units if they got a better receiver and better on batteries, the etrex vista has both going for it.

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Then I will be turning around and buying a PN-20 or 30 (whichever my budget will stretch to accomodate)

......

 

P.S. Sorry this has turned into such a long post. I'd just hate for newer folks to make the same expensive mistakes I've made. Shop wisely the first time so you don't have to do it again for several years. By not shopping wisely I'm now in the market for my 3rd GPSr in slightly less than a year. Oh well, maybe somebody else can learn from my mistakes. :rolleyes:

OK, say I could talk a certain person into raising my budget to around $300 ;) That should get me into a PN-30. Is that where I should be looking or is there another unit in that range that does the same?

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Then I will be turning around and buying a PN-20 or 30 (whichever my budget will stretch to accomodate)

......

 

P.S. Sorry this has turned into such a long post. I'd just hate for newer folks to make the same expensive mistakes I've made. Shop wisely the first time so you don't have to do it again for several years. By not shopping wisely I'm now in the market for my 3rd GPSr in slightly less than a year. Oh well, maybe somebody else can learn from my mistakes. :rolleyes:

OK, say I could talk a certain person into raising my budget to around $300 ;) That should get me into a PN-30. Is that where I should be looking or is there another unit in that range that does the same?

 

Right now, Amazon.com has the PN-40 on sale for $300.88, but these sales don't tend to last very long. If you can swing that, you'd be in great shape!! :Dsales page You might have to click to get the price! Oh BTW, that's with free shipping!

Edited by Rockin Roddy

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Right now, Amazon.com has the PN-40 on sale for $300.88, but these sales don't tend to last very long. If you can swing that, you'd be in great shape!! ;)sales page You might have to click to get the price! Oh BTW, that's with free shipping!

My father got it for a few bucks cheaper from crutchfield.com. Ordered last week, should arrive tomorrow.

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OK, say I could talk a certain person into raising my budget to around $300 ;) That should get me into a PN-30. Is that where I should be looking or is there another unit in that range that does the same?

Regardless, totally disregard this statement from post #88 above:

.....The software isnt easy to use either. There is a steep learning curve. ....

Currently, this characterization is totally non-applicable to the geocaching activity.

One can prepare their out-of-the-box, new PN-20/30/40 for geocaching without even installing the bundled software on one's PC.

The residential street level, detail region maps can be loaded, or installed, directly onto a PN-XX, or its SD card, from the 3 Region Map DVDs included in the box.

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Regardless, totally disregard this statement from post #88 above:

.....The software isnt easy to use either. There is a steep learning curve. ....

Currently, this characterization is totally non-applicable to the geocaching activity.

 

Perhaps, but it's still a true statement, and one that I would not disregard.

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Right now, Amazon.com has the PN-40 on sale for $300.88, but these sales don't tend to last very long. If you can swing that, you'd be in great shape!! ;)sales page You might have to click to get the price! Oh BTW, that's with free shipping!

My father got it for a few bucks cheaper from crutchfield.com. Ordered last week, should arrive tomorrow.

If you have a Bass Pro shop nearby the PN-30 is currently $259.00. I think this price is through the 8/23. I just picked mine up yesterday.

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Right now, Amazon.com has the PN-40 on sale for $300.88, but these sales don't tend to last very long. If you can swing that, you'd be in great shape!! :Dsales page You might have to click to get the price! Oh BTW, that's with free shipping!

OK, steep learning curve aside for the software that doesn't necessarily apply to Geocaching :rolleyes: What info goes from GC to the PN-40. Does the notes logs hints etc. go to the unit? Is it all under 1 waypoint, or is it split into multiple waypoints or poi's? And because of this being paperless, I'm guessing GSAK doesn't apply to this unit?

 

After all the research on etrex, trying to convert to PN now ;)

 

Thanks for anything you can fill me in on as far as the info that goes to the PN from the website.

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...say I could talk a certain person into raising my budget to around $300 ;) That should get me into a PN-30. Is that where I should be looking or is there another unit in that range that does the same?
Nope, that's the ticket. At $300 or a little under, you'd be hard pressed to beat the PN-30. A solid GPS, full road maps, paperless caching.

 

Caveat: I'm assuming from all available info that the PN-30 is just a PN-40 minus compass, barometer, and accelerometers. But it IS a new product and may have its share of new products bugs.

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Right now, Amazon.com has the PN-40 on sale for $300.88, but these sales don't tend to last very long. If you can swing that, you'd be in great shape!! ;)sales page You might have to click to get the price! Oh BTW, that's with free shipping!

My father got it for a few bucks cheaper from crutchfield.com. Ordered last week, should arrive tomorrow.

If you have a Bass Pro shop nearby the PN-30 is currently $259.00. I think this price is through the 8/23. I just picked mine up yesterday.

Yeah but for the cost of dinner for 2 @ Friendly's you can upgrade to the -40.

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Right now, Amazon.com has the PN-40 on sale for $300.88, but these sales don't tend to last very long. If you can swing that, you'd be in great shape!! :rolleyes:sales page You might have to click to get the price! Oh BTW, that's with free shipping!

OK, steep learning curve aside for the software that doesn't necessarily apply to Geocaching ;) What info goes from GC to the PN-40. Does the notes logs hints etc. go to the unit? Is it all under 1 waypoint, or is it split into multiple waypoints or poi's? And because of this being paperless, I'm guessing GSAK doesn't apply to this unit?

If you use the Cache Register application ($10 from DeLorme and well worth it IMO), your PQ is downloaded directly from gc.com & loaded into the GPS. All child waypoints are loaded as waypoints. The cache itself has the full cache description, hints, as many logs as the PQ includes, etc. up to 15K characters. If a cache drops out of a PQ, the next time it's run & you sync, it'll be removed from the GPS.

 

You can also use TopoUSA 8 to load the PQ in after downloading.

 

If you use Send to GPS, you don't get the child waypoints, but you get everything else.

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Right now, Amazon.com has the PN-40 on sale for $300.88, but these sales don't tend to last very long. If you can swing that, you'd be in great shape!! :laughing:sales page You might have to click to get the price! Oh BTW, that's with free shipping!

My father got it for a few bucks cheaper from crutchfield.com. Ordered last week, should arrive tomorrow.

If you have a Bass Pro shop nearby the PN-30 is currently $259.00. I think this price is through the 8/23. I just picked mine up yesterday.

Yeah but for the cost of dinner for 2 @ Friendly's you can upgrade to the -40.

dakboy,

yes, you're right re: the dinner :D I chose the PN-30 b/c I don't use the compass or barometric altimeter in my application. 99% of my use is in the marshes of Louisiana. You know our state- it's flat or lower than sea level ;) I never used the compass in my Mag. Exp 600. I decided to save a few bucks and take the little lady out to dinner b/f hunting season begins. You know we have to get those brownie points now :rolleyes:

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Right now, Amazon.com has the PN-40 on sale for $300.88, but these sales don't tend to last very long. If you can swing that, you'd be in great shape!! :Dsales page You might have to click to get the price! Oh BTW, that's with free shipping!

Should arrive to me on Thursday :rolleyes: Maybe I'll tell her tomorrow about it ;)

 

What's first on my agenda to get this setup for paperless, besides PM?

 

Thanks again to everyone for your input, will give this a whirl for a few weeks and decide if it's a keeper!

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