Railroad Mile Posts and Bridge Numbers

[kayakbird]

I am rather new to Bench Marking. Gathering up a few along the old Northern Pacific line in Gallatin County, Montana it seems that the bridges are numbered for the mile that they are in. Except that bridge 146 (QX0471) is described a being only 0.10 further from Bozeman than bridge 143 (QX0219). Both bridges appear to have been replaced by a single culvert and the marks were no found.

 

Thank for any enlightenment. ML

[+NorthWes]

One of my customers at the sign shop where I work is the Alaska Railroad (ARR). Bridge marker signs on the ARR are numbered to reference their milepost location on the line (where Seward is mile zero). A quick call to their engineering shop confirmed my suspicion that such numbering is common all across the country. Best way to mark a structure's location for railroad workers...

 

However, those milepost references from old descriptions can be markedly affected by track realignment projects which shorten or lengthen the track mileage from a designated zero point. And, as noted, new construction can alter the landscape beyond recognition relative to the original description.

[kayakbird]

One of my customers at the sign shop where I work is the Alaska Railroad (ARR). Bridge marker signs on the ARR are numbered to reference their milepost location on the line (where Seward is mile zero). A quick call to their engineering shop confirmed my suspicion that such numbering is common all across the country. Best way to mark a structure's location for railroad workers...

 

However, those milepost references from old descriptions can be markedly affected by track realignment projects which shorten or lengthen the track mileage from a designated zero point. And, as noted, new construction can alter the landscape beyond recognition relative to the original description.

 

North Wes,

 

Thanks for that information. The track alignment/length has not changed. Now I will have to figure out a combination of typo's that will lead me to another bridge or culvert in that general area.

 

Maybe I should start another thread, but I'll throw this out here: in the last three weeks I have found five and maybe six marks that were reported as "Not Found" by NGS crews in the early 80's. is this unusual? I will file a recovery report to the NGS. ML

[+PFF]

.....it seems that the bridges are numbered for the mile that they are in.

 

I agree with the answer from NorthWes. As a means for getting oriented along a particular line, look for a small sign on the support pole for the railroad warning device (lights, crossbuck, etc.).

 

Intersections are identified by "decimal" miles. Generally, this is printed on the sign, along with the name of the rail carrier and the phone number to call if the intersection is blocked.

 

-Paul-

[Bill93]

Railroad mileposts get changed when the track is changed or sometimes when a different company merges an old line into their system. Check agreement of those signs you can find with the descriptions for benchmarks that can be found. If there has been a change, you have to interpolate the old distances in the descriptions to find an offset between old and new.

 

Also note that if a description along a railroad refers to Poles, those are usually spaced at 40 to the mile or someother standard number for that line. Thus you have another distance check.

[kayakbird]

Thanks all for the info. There is a bridge in mile 146 (QX0214) where I recovered M 493 yesterday. Since the ghost/erroneous 146 has apparently been removed, I may always wonder. ML

[Wintertime]

Maybe I should start another thread, but I'll throw this out here: in the last three weeks I have found five and maybe six marks that were reported as "Not Found" by NGS crews in the early 80's. is this unusual? I will file a recovery report to the NGS. ML

It certainly isn't unheard of to find a mark that the NGS couldn't, but I'm surprised that you've found that many in one area. Before you file a FOUND report, make absolutely sure that those are the original stations and not resets. A reset, even if it is in the same drill hole, is usually not the same station. (I know there was recently a discussion about this; there have been some situations in which the new disk was allowed to use the old PID, right? But if that's the case, the datasheet will say so.)

 

Patty

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

It certainly isn't unheard of to find a mark that the NGS couldn't, but I'm surprised that you've found that many in one area. Before you file a FOUND report, make absolutely sure that those are the original stations and not resets. A reset, even if it is in the same drill hole, is usually not the same station. (I know there was recently a discussion about this; there have been some situations in which the new disk was allowed to use the old PID, right? But if that's the case, the datasheet will say so.)

 

Patty

My experience is that for Vertical Control points (bench marks) resets are stamped "Reset" on the new disk and they are in a different place with a new PID.

 

For horizontal Control points, a reset means the disk is in the same drill hole or is reset from the underground mark, etc. and thus has the same location, it is never stamped "Reset" on the disk (but does get it in the designation on the data sheet) but gives the two dates (eg "MT DESERT 1856 1933"), and has the same PID. If a Horizontal Control mark has to be moved (construction, etc.) the disk and description gets a "2" (eg "HOOK MT 2") it (obviously) has a different location (derived from a new triangulation to nearby points) , and has a new PID.

 

The point is the surveyor may have the means to ascertain that a horizontal control mark preserves the location (using the same drill holes, checking the RMs, checking angles to nearby points, etc.) but for vertical control, even putting a disk in the same hole may well have a different elevation. Another way to put it, elevation values (without doing a new level line and adjustment) are lost when the disk is gone, but are not lost (or you might say can be recovered) for horizontal control marks.

Edited December 13, 2008 by Papa-Bear-NYC

[+RadioKrafter]

Logged my first Benchmark on the CSX (ex Seaboard RR) mainline through Petersburg, VA. RR MP's, at least on the East Coast, are fairly stable. Employee time tables are referenced by MP #. F'instance, the RR might issue a "Slow Order" to a train crew on a certain route; (train speed to be slower than normal track speed) between MPXXX and MPXXX.

 

On Norfolk Southern, mile posts are concrete posts, approximately 3' tall or, the mileage is on some types of signals. One that reads "751" = MP 75.1.

Edited December 15, 2008 by RadioKrafter

[kayakbird]

"---Before you file a FOUND report, make absolutely sure that those are the original stations and not resets.--- ----But if that's the case, the datasheet will say so."

 

Patty & all,

 

Two of the marks are on active, as described, RR bridges (one is a stone arch). Another is in a siding area of a RR line that was abandoned around 1980. The rancher that now owns the property, and showed me its witness post, stated that his dad told him to never disturb the BM. Two others are on that same abandoned RR line and show no evidence of disturbance.

 

I've run across enough typo's to make it worth while to look for not found and destroyed marks. Great fun, but not today at 10 below F. ML

[foxtrot_xray]

Late to the conversation, but also keep in mind that 'bridge numbers' (and "signal numbers") are usually to the mile TENTHS.

 

Therefore, bridge number 141 is at mile marker 14.1, not 141. Signal 3765 is at mile marker 376.5. In signal cases where there's one on either side of the track, one will be 'advanced' a tenth, so at the same location you'd have 3765 and 3766.

 

And like anyone will say, be careful 'round railroads.

[kayakbird]

And like anyone will say, be careful 'round railroads.

 

Thanks FX,

 

In this case the NGS descriptions and the RR mileposts that I have observed are given in whole numbers that correlate with linear distance. A bit further NW the bridge in mile 157 does have 157 plus an underlined 1 painted on it.

 

Always learning. ML

[caseyfoxred]

Hope you can help. There seems to be a bunch of benchmarks listed in my area that are along the railway. How do I access these areas? I was told as a kid that it was trespassing to even walk along the rail. I live very close to the mainline of the pennsylvania RR, now Norfolk Southern, this area is hoppin' with trains all the time. I am real familiar with the area and could probably hunt for some of these but not sure how to go about it. Feedback would be appreciated. Thanx.

[Bill93]

Enforcement varies with the area, the particular rail company, and the level of traffic. You can easily get arrested in many places.

 

Around here, at least, you can get away with poking around the fence line near where the railroad crosses a public road. Anything more than that is questionable.

 

Some people take calculated risks to recover benchmarks that are not so accessible. They consider safety a vital part of the plan, and avoiding arrest another. Search the forum history for posts on railroad trespassing.

 

There are some marks that simply are not safe to go to unless the rail line is shut down, because there is no adequate escape route should a train come along. People get killed every year by being caught on a bridge, for instance.

 

Walking "along the rail" is always dangerous. With wind or other noise you can be surprised by a train. There is some foul zone distance that even people authorized to be on the property are supposed to maintain when walking parallel to the rails. It is never less than 4 feet from the outside of the rail, and some conditions make it 10 or 25 feet.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Bill93

[kayakbird]

Hope you can help. There seems to be a bunch of benchmarks listed in my area that are along the railway. How do I access these areas? I was told as a kid that it was trespassing to even walk along the rail. I live very close to the mainline of the pennsylvania RR, now Norfolk Southern, this area is hoppin' with trains all the time. I am real familiar with the area and could probably hunt for some of these but not sure how to go about it. Feedback would be appreciated. Thanx.

 

I'll have to plead the 5th; but living west of the 100th and wearing some orange clothing does seem to help. ML

[Z15]

“The difference between a railroad trespass statute and a standard criminal trespass statute is that on a railroad trespassing we do not have to give you prior warning, we do not have to have signs posted,” said Rick Kentaft, a railroad special agent. “Just your mere presence on what a reasonable person would understand as railroad property constitutes railroad trespassing.”

[+TheBeanTeam]

“The difference between a railroad trespass statute and a standard criminal trespass statute is that on a railroad trespassing we do not have to give you prior warning, we do not have to have signs posted,” said Rick Kentaft, a railroad special agent. “Just your mere presence on what a reasonable person would understand as railroad property constitutes railroad trespassing.”

 

In my city they do sting operations to help promote track safety and the tickets are $700.00 a pop.

 

The guideline here is 25 feet from the center of the track is the right of way. Some structures I work on have back walls right up against the tracks. If I work there or send maintenance to thos structures I am supposed to have a certified flaggers at each end of the section they are working on.

Edited December 18, 2008 by TheBeanTeam

[mloser]

Back to your original question though...

 

I used Foxtrot's great Google Earth benchmark tools and went up the line about three miles and discovered a mark there that said it was on bridge 146 also. If memory serves it was a 1957 mark and the one you were looking for was set in 1982. It seems the NGS came along in 1982 and, when they couldn't find a mark, or perhaps if the existing mark was difficult to access, they set new ones. While it is possible that the railroad changed their mile numbering it seems unlikely that it would have changed by three miles. Usually the numbering is from some main terminal point. In my area Norfolk Southern has renumbered a lot of trackage, but the differences are much greater than 3--for instance old PRR MP 105 is now NS MP 292. This reflects the mileage to Norfolk (I think) rather than Philadelphia (I am sure). In all cases that I have seen with renumbered MPs the original MP location has been kept and just renumbered, so the railroad obviously didn't take partial miles into account (maybe MP 292 is actually 292.5 miles from Norfolk!).

 

Although I would look on bridge 146 up the road a ways, I would make the assumption that 146 on this datasheet means 143.

[kayakbird]

Back to your original question though...

 

-----Although I would look on bridge 146 up the road a ways, I would make the assumption that 146 on this datasheet means 143.

 

Thanks mloser

QX0214 (P4) is on the bridge in mile 146. I believe that you are right that the 146 in the description for QX0471 should be 143. There is another bridge about 500 M back to the southeast that has possibilities. Too much snow and frozen dirt now. ML

[foxtrot_xray]

And like anyone will say, be careful 'round railroads.

Thanks FX,

In this case the NGS descriptions and the RR mileposts that I have observed are given in whole numbers that correlate with linear distance. A bit further NW the bridge in mile 157 does have 157 plus an underlined 1 painted on it.

Always learning. ML

Pretty much, listen to what everyone else says. Depending on the line, the amount of .. enforcement will vary greatly. (For example on my line officially we have to tell people not to trespass. Unofficially, none of my crews will report you unless you obviously are doing something you shouldn't.)

 

The important thing to note is this - very important - Trespassing on a railroad, or interfering with any operations of a railroad is a FEDERAL offense.

 

And then, a personal note - if you o get permission to search along the ROW (right of way) do NOT isten to any music player or radio, or anything that can obstruct your hearing. You may think this is funny, but going downhill on a straight piece of track, a train can be VERY quiet.

 

Cheers all,

Mike.