Lame First Hides

[+sbell111]

I started this thread based on the 1st hider comments that asking others to consider not expecting too much -is another way of saying "I really didn't try very hard on this one and I am not that proud of it" "But at least I got one out there" - why the token attitude and why not impress yourself and others by waiting until you can be proud of what you did. "I just wanted to get one out there so I can say I have one out there". Yes there are different ways to play but that is no excuse for sleeping on the dance floor. "Play the game - Hide the cache - pick a GOOD place". Don't be snoring in the middle of my movie!

I believe that you are reading too much into these comments. Way too much.

Edited April 15, 2008 by sbell111

[+TrailGators]

We can't seem to agree that first hiders as well as all hiders should strive for success. I thought this would be universal. I guess I was wrong...

I believe that what you are wrong about is that everyone should use your metric as to what makes a successful cache.

It's not my metric. It's the voice of the community. When you read the logs on your cache pages and almost every log says "TNLNSL" or "Found it" then IMHO you are not quite hitting the mark. Logs on our caches are the best feedback we have. If you want to ignore good information that your prerogative.

[GPS-Hermit]

Let consider another way of looking at it thru my eyes. Someone asks you to break in a new Bowler - what would you tell them. Don't listen to these other folks - you just do it anyway you want to and if you are having fun - a gutter ball is where it's at Baby!. You don't have to ever score a single point just have fun and forget about what we are doing here.

 

Or you say the Object of the game is to knock down the pins and the way to do this is to try as hard as you can to roll the ball down the alley the very best you can.

 

I have never ever heard anyone in Bowling say "Gutter Balls are just his way of playing the game".

Edited April 15, 2008 by GPS-Hermit

[+XopherN71]

I don't think anyone is throwing a cache out the window and saying 'there ya go'!

 

That analogy doesn't make any sense, there simply HAS to be some effort involved, you can't 'not try'.

 

1. You need to make a geocache.

2. You need to hide it.

3. You need to mark the coordinates.

4. You need to submit it and have it approved.

 

Those are the 4 basic steps as I see them, anything MORE is a bonus, anything less simply isn't a geocache.

 

Heck, it wouldn't bother me one bit if someone took a big box, nailed it to the top of a fence post, put a flashing beacon on top and wrote 'GEOCACHE' on it, I'd still wonder what was inside!

Edited April 15, 2008 by XopherN71

[+TrailGators]

Let consider another way of looking at it thru my eyes. Someone asks you to break in a new Bowler - what would you tell them. Don't listen to these other folks - you just do it anyway you want to and if you are having fun - a gutter ball is where it's at Baby!. You don't have to ever score a single point just have fun and forget about what we are doing here.

 

Or you say the Object of the game is to knock down the pins and the way to do this is to try as hard as you can to roll the ball down the alley the very best you can.

 

I have never ever heard anyone in Bowling say "Gutter Balls are just his way of playing the game".

I understand what you mean GPS-Hermit. When the awards come out maybe more will see the light. But then again when the awards start posting some will not understand why diverting a used vitamin bottle from their trash can to a spot under lamp post next to a trash dumpster behind a Wal-Mart isn't winning any awards. Of course, when that happens these guys will still be arguing that level of enjoyment is not possible to measure... Edited April 15, 2008 by TrailGators

[+Renegade Knight]

...I have never ever heard anyone in Bowling say "Gutter Balls are just his way of playing the game".

 

I've seen people bowl sober, drunk, with the gutter guards in (to get better side angle bounce). I've seen the ball tossed, chucked, hucked, pucked. I've seen it thrown granny style, wiht the eyes closed, open, backwards, laying down, sideways, with the wrong fingers in the holes, opposite handed, from the floor and not the wood. I've seen them fast, slow, medium, barely making it to the end of the alley. I've seen gutter balls, balls going back into the audience, and balls crossing lanes getting a strike for the other team.

 

Yes you try to hit the pins, and yes you try to find the cache. Other than that there is a lot of variation.

[GPS-Hermit]

I don't think anyone is throwing a cache out the window and saying 'there ya go'!

 

That analogy doesn't make any sense, there simply HAS to be some effort involved, you can't 'not try'.

 

1. You need to make a geocache.

2. You need to hide it.

3. You need to mark the coordinates.

4. You need to submit it and have it approved.

 

Those are the 4 basic steps as I see them, anything MORE is a bonus, anything less simply isn't a geocache.

 

Heck, it wouldn't bother me one bit if someone took a big box, nailed it to the top of a fence post, put a flashing beacon on top and wrote 'GEOCACHE' on it, I'd still wonder what was inside!

No! it doesn't bother you! That is what this thread is all about. Why doesn't it bother you - that is the part I find so disappointing and is decreasing the quality of the game. It is a hunt and you don't even care about that part of it. "2. You need to hide it." Why doesn't it bother you that the purpose of this game is to do a find for something that is hidden and you don't care if it is in plain sight and actually requires no/little effort to do the find. The game has a purpose and the players should join in the game at the active level not the - I don't really care what this game is all about - I'll goof off. Why is it not like other games and sports where the participants are trying to do ALL they can at the other end of the spectrum. The other people in the game are subject to what you do. Golfers try to get the ball in the hole, Don't they!.

 

What exactly do you tell a person new to the sport if they ask you to help them hide their 1st cache. Do the minimum every body will love it. Scrape the bottom - that is what its all about.

 

I don't believe this game is totally free form - it is Hide and Seek! You can't say you found someone that didn't hide.

Edited April 15, 2008 by GPS-Hermit

[+TrailGators]

I don't believe this game is totally free form - it is Hide and Seek! You can't say you found someone that didn't hide.

I used a similar analogy once. I said I used to love play hide n' seek with my little sister. It was fun until she kept hiding in the same closet. Then it got boring. I guess some people could open the same closet door a hundred times and never get bored. I've never understand that....

 

New hiders should find a bunch of caches to see which ones they like better. If they hide caches they like better then they will have a better chance of getting praise from the finders. Better is better.

[+Renegade Knight]

....What exactly do you tell a person new to the sport if they ask you to help them hide their 1st cache....

 

I tell them to follow thier muse. It's the source of all good caches.

[+Renegade Knight]

...New hiders should find a bunch of caches to see which ones they like better. If they hide caches they like better then they will have a better chance of getting praise from the finders. Better is better.

 

Making people find a bunch of caches before they hide one only teaches them what the locals do. It may actually make them reconsider a good hide becasue it's outside the local box.

 

The more you restrict people the more restricted your results.

[+Keruso]

you guys should check out my first cache, Don't Be Scared by the Ghouls. My first multi cache, and it was my first cache. at the time, i only found one multi-cache, so i thought i would be able to do it. it's also in a graveyard. This took me off of making more multi's

 

my next cache, Off the Beaten Path, barely lasted a month. It was in a spot where i usually walk to work, and in need of major CITO. a cache that was there before, Koons-Kahuns-Khuns-Whatever, i was waiting for it to be archived so i could place my own cache there. Bad idea.

 

I have 10 caches, two adopted and two archived, and they are all doing fine, except the archived ones

[+TrailGators]

...New hiders should find a bunch of caches to see which ones they like better. If they hide caches they like better then they will have a better chance of getting praise from the finders. Better is better.

 

Making people find a bunch of caches before they hide one only teaches them what the locals do. It may actually make them reconsider a good hide becasue it's outside the local box.

 

The more you restrict people the more restricted your results.

I'm not restricting them. It was a suggestion. I've learned a lot from finding caches.

[Mushtang]

I don't think anyone is throwing a cache out the window and saying 'there ya go'!

 

That analogy doesn't make any sense, there simply HAS to be some effort involved, you can't 'not try'.

 

1. You need to make a geocache.

2. You need to hide it.

3. You need to mark the coordinates.

4. You need to submit it and have it approved.

 

Those are the 4 basic steps as I see them, anything MORE is a bonus, anything less simply isn't a geocache.

 

Heck, it wouldn't bother me one bit if someone took a big box, nailed it to the top of a fence post, put a flashing beacon on top and wrote 'GEOCACHE' on it, I'd still wonder what was inside!

No! it doesn't bother you! That is what this thread is all about. Why doesn't it bother you - that is the part I find so disappointing and is decreasing the quality of the game. It is a hunt and you don't even care about that part of it. "2. You need to hide it." Why doesn't it bother you that the purpose of this game is to do a find for something that is hidden and you don't care if it is in plain sight and actually requires no/little effort to do the find. The game has a purpose and the players should join in the game at the active level not the - I don't really care what this game is all about - I'll goof off. Why is it not like other games and sports where the participants are trying to do ALL they can at the other end of the spectrum. The other people in the game are subject to what you do. Golfers try to get the ball in the hole, Don't they!.

 

What exactly do you tell a person new to the sport if they ask you to help them hide their 1st cache. Do the minimum every body will love it. Scrape the bottom - that is what its all about.

 

I don't believe this game is totally free form - it is Hide and Seek! You can't say you found someone that didn't hide.

Let me try and let you see what I'm hearing from you. Your bowling analogy talks about what you'd tell beginners, so let's assume that we tell them all the things you'd like to - try and get strikes, knock down as many as possible, no gutter balls, etc. Then this person shows up with a bright blue bowling ball that you hate, and holds the ball a different way than you do, and maybe even goes to a bowling alley that you think is sub-par.

 

After reading this thread I get the impression that you'd be upset with this person, and even if they weren't on your bowling team you'd be of the opinion that they're doing it wrong and they're dragging down the sport of bowling. It wouldn't matter to you that they're having fun with the game, that they're bowling and going for a high score, all because they're not doing it way you want them to.

 

You really sound like someone that thinks THEY know all the correct ways to participate, and those that don't participate in the same way, or at the same level, are hurting the activity and you'd rather they leave.

 

There's nothing wrong with offering advice to a bad bowler if they want to get higher scores. There's nothing wrong with giving a cacher a suggestion that ammo cans hidden in wooded areas would appeal more to you than the LPC. But if your advice isn't taken, an LPC is hidden, lots of people enjoy finding it, does that mean that they're all wrong?

 

What drives ME crazy is when a poster tries to say that all cachers that hide LPCs are doing so because they just don't know any better, and they're hurting the game, and they're not even trying, or that they have no creativity, and their hides are worthless. I say these people ARE playing correctly (for them), and that they ARE being creative (as much as they can be), and the caches are obviously worth something to someone because they have a zillion finds in no time.

 

Nobody is telling new cachers to scrape the bottom of the barrel and do the bare minimum (at least nobody in this thread). We'd all like to tell cachers (that ask us) what we like and what we'd enjoy, and make suggestions on how great really creative caches can be, etc. But at the same time I'd be ashamed to point to a cache that 1) I didn't pay anything for, 2) Someone else placed for me and all the other cachers to find, 3) I might not like, and say "That cache isn't worthy of anyone's time, and nobody should ever enjoy finding it". I'm just not that arrogant.

 

Think about it this way.... you don't like what they're doing, so you would like them to either do it your way or not at all. Do you think anyone else should get to make similar decisions? What about many of our co-workers who can't understand why we enjoy the game, and think that none of us should be doing this, and we should use the GPS units in our cars for driving and not this worthless activity?

 

If you've read all this and come away thinking that all Mushtang is saying is we shouldn't promote creativity and try to raise the bar, then you've completely missed the point (as so many others have). Maybe some of the other people will someday see the light. I'm hoping you read this and saw that maybe it's okay to tolerate the existence of caches you don't like, because there are plenty that you do like. The ones you don't like may get in your way, but it's really not that hard to get around them and filter the bulk of them away, and leave yourself with more caches than you can ever find.

[+XopherN71]

No! it doesn't bother you! That is what this thread is all about. Why doesn't it bother you - that is the part I find so disappointing and is decreasing the quality of the game.

Breathe.

 

 

I never said I prefer easy caches, but some people do... remember, there are people out there playing the game with small children - you're not the only one out looking, and not everyone has your skill set (whatever that may be).

 

Try keeping a 4 year old entertained while you scrounge around for even 5 minutes looking for a cache, they get distracted and/or bored easy. That's why there is the rating system for difficulty, so people of all levels can enjoy the game. Sorry, but nobody is going to tell me that all caches have to be very well hidden to some like myself it's a family thing.

 

Using your analogy, call it bowling with bumper pads.

Edited April 15, 2008 by XopherN71

[GPS-Hermit]

My point is that the scale is 1/1 to 5/5 and it seems that we have dropped all the way to 0/1 at locations of no interest. I don't agree you can't hide a Lame cache and I don't agree that any cache is acceptable, just because someone is having fun. No way!. There is a point to the game. We have a scale that some have completely dropped off of by NOT playing the game at all. Hide the cache so someone can Hunt for it. That is what the game is all about. Hide 1/1, Hide is 5/5, Hide it your way or my way or his way but Hide the cache. If you aren't hiding the cache noone can hunt for it. That is my point.

 

I have watched kids at Easter Egg hunts, kick the can, Hide and Seek, Find me in the dark. Honestly if a child doesn't see what they are looking for, they look somewhere else until they FIND IT. The parents don't tell them to only look in one place and quit if it not there. They teach them to keep looking because what they are doing is hunting. If it is not over there, look somewhere else, until you find it because it is HIDDEN. If you put the Egg out in plain site and the child sees it and goes and gets it, It is not a hunt. What do you do when you misplace you Car keys. Hunt for them cause ya don't see them anywhere!

 

Here you go - What do you tell a Child, that has never found a cache, to do! Hello Jamie now here is how you find a GEO-Cache. What would you say.

 

The last thing in this world I am worried about is whether the child will find a 1/1 - they will do better than adults if they are taught to HUNT. I also dare you to give a child your car keys, close your eye and tell the child to hide it. I promise you, it will not be a Lame hide. That child will go heart and soul, and the hunt on is on! I love the attitude of kids - they want to play. They are excited about the game. Lets al get excited! Whoopee!

[+TrailGators]

My point is that the scale is 1/1 to 5/5 and it seems that we have dropped all the way to 0/1 at locations of no interest. I don't agree you can't hide a Lame cache and I don't agree that any cache is acceptable, just because someone is having fun. No way!. There is a point to the game. We have a scale that some have completely dropped off of by NOT playing the game at all. Hide the cache so someone can Hunt for it. That is what the game is all about. Hide 1/1, Hide is 5/5, Hide it your way or my way or his way but Hide the cache. If you aren't hiding the cache noone can hunt for it. That is my point.

 

I have watched kids at Easter Egg hunts, kick the can, Hide and Seek, Find me in the dark. Honestly if a child doesn't see what they are looking for, they look somewhere else until they FIND IT. The parents don't tell them to only look in one place and quit if it not there. They teach them to keep looking because what they are doing is hunting. If it is not over there, look somewhere else, until you find it because it is HIDDEN. If you put the Egg out in plain site and the child sees it and goes and gets it, It is not a hunt. What do you do when you misplace you Car keys. Hunt for them cause ya don't see them anywhere!

 

Here you go - What do you tell a Child, that has never found a cache, to do! Hello Jamie now here is how you find a GEO-Cache. What would you say.

 

The last thing in this world I am worried about is whether the child will find a 1/1 - they will do better than adults if they are taught to HUNT. I also dare you to give a child your car keys, close your eye and tell the child to hide it. I promise you, it will not be a Lame hide. That child will go heart and soul, and the hunt on is on! I love the attitude of kids - they want to play. They are excited about the game. Lets al get excited! Whoopee!

 

I have found that kids prefer larger containers with treasures inside... Edited April 15, 2008 by TrailGators

[+Gustav129]

Ok, I'll try this one again, I lost the network when I was waiting for it to post.

 

I save the 1/1 caches for when I'm out with my gf, who is handicapped. She had corrective surgery on her foot and ankle for a deformaty she has had since birth. She is just now learning to walk again. Without those in your face "supposedly lame" caches, the sport would be ruined for her before she even started.

[+Gustav129]

Ok, I'll try this one again, I lost the network when I was waiting for it to post.

 

I save the 1/1 caches for when I'm out with my gf, who is handicapped. She had corrective surgery on her foot and ankle for a deformaty she has had since birth. She is just now learning to walk again. Without those in your face "supposedly lame" caches, the sport would be ruined for her before she even started.

[+TrailGators]

Ok, I'll try this one again, I lost the network when I was waiting for it to post.

 

I save the 1/1 caches for when I'm out with my gf, who is handicapped. She had corrective surgery on her foot and ankle for a deformaty she has had since birth. She is just now learning to walk again. Without those in your face "supposedly lame" caches, the sport would be ruined for her before she even started.

For the 15 billionith time....Nobody is talking about getting rid of any caches. Comprende?

[+XopherN71]

Exactly my point gustav129, thank you for pointing out yet another reason variety is what makes the hobby so much fun for EVERYONE.

 

Some people think that every cache has to live up to THEIR expectations, sorry - that's not how it works and it's not going to happen.

 

I've said my piece, and will continue to hide caches how I see fit and will also continue to find caches of all types, shapes, sizes and levels alone and with my family and have fun while we're at it.

 

You continue the war on 'lame caches', I'm going to go find/hide some...

 

 

All the best,

'x'

Edited April 16, 2008 by XopherN71

[+TeamGumbo]

It was fun until she kept hiding in the same closet.

 

I'm going to quote you on every LPC thread from now on.

 

 

I wonder if it could ever be determined who hid the VERY FIRST instance of every type of cache that tends to get the hackles up around here: nanos, LPCs, Hide-A-Key, etc. (in a non-ironic way, naturally).

 

I mean....they HAD to start *somewhere* right? Can't blame it all on newbies.

 

[+TrailGators]

Exactly my point gustav129, thank you for pointing out yet another reason variety is what makes the hobby so much fun for EVERYONE.

I couldn't agree more! So hiding a cache under 100 lamp posts around town is not variety. I think we are getting closer to finding common ground....<crossing my fingers>

[+TrailGators]

It was fun until she kept hiding in the same closet.

 

I'm going to quote you on every LPC thread from now on.

 

 

I wonder if it could ever be determined who hid the VERY FIRST instance of every type of cache that tends to get the hackles up around here: nanos, LPCs, Hide-A-Key, etc. (in a non-ironic way, naturally).

 

I mean....they HAD to start *somewhere* right? Can't blame it all on newbies.

 

It would be funny to find the father of the LPC!

[+Renegade Knight]

My point is that the scale is 1/1 to 5/5 and it seems that we have dropped all the way to 0/1 at locations of no interest. I don't agree you can't hide a Lame cache and I don't agree that any cache is acceptable, just because someone is having fun. No way!. There is a point to the game. We have a scale that some have completely dropped off of by NOT playing the game at all. Hide the cache so someone can Hunt for it. That is what the game is all about. Hide 1/1, Hide is 5/5, Hide it your way or my way or his way but Hide the cache. If you aren't hiding the cache noone can hunt for it. That is my point....

 

So your point, the entire point is that a cache should be hidden? That's 2 and up on the scale. 1 varies from painted day glow orange in the open to the first and only place you could possibly look.

[+XopherN71]

If anyone is confused on how to rate their cache, they do provide a simple step by step question/answer form.

 

http://www.clayjar.com/gcrs/

 

According to Groundspeak themselves, the most basic of caches would be as follows:

 

Is specialized equipment required? No

Is an overnight stay likely? No

What is the length of the hike? Less than a 1/2 mile

What is the trail like? Paved pathways

Is the path bushy or overgrown? Not at all

What is the terrain elevation like? Basically flat

 

And finally... (drum roll please)

 

How easy is it to find the cache? Cache is in plain sight or location is fairly obvious.

 

There you have it...

[+Renegade Knight]

Exactly my point gustav129, thank you for pointing out yet another reason variety is what makes the hobby so much fun for EVERYONE.

I couldn't agree more! So hiding a cache under 100 lamp posts around town is not variety. ...

 

What about 100 different lamp posts?

[GPS-Hermit]

Ok, I'll try this one again, I lost the network when I was waiting for it to post.

 

I save the 1/1 caches for when I'm out with my gf, who is handicapped. She had corrective surgery on her foot and ankle for a deformaty she has had since birth. She is just now learning to walk again. Without those in your face "supposedly lame" caches, the sport would be ruined for her before she even started.

The point to me with your girl friend would be whether or not she wants to play a game about hunting. If your girl friend can say in 10 seconds at an instant glance. - I KNOW for sure it's under that rock because it is the only possible place I see that anything in this entire world could be - she is not hunting! She knows where it is without hunting. It is a hunting game. If the conversation goes more - like well now let me see, it could be over there but that is probably to easily or I see another place and I'm not sure if it is big enough and look at that spot - that could be it. O.k. I can't look every where at once so lets narrow this down and start deciding where to look first. I can't speak to her abilities and I can't say how she will enjoy. What I can define is whether or not she is hunting in a Hunting game.

 

A 1/1 is a cache that can be FOUND by a novice - the key is the word found - which requires Hunting, knowing immediately it has to be right there without a hunt is not GEOCACHING. IT IS a HUNTING GAME/Sport. A 0/1 can be found almost instantly just by looking, with almost 0 effort.

 

I guess a better way to say this - are we looking for caches or Hunting for them.

 

For sure just because someone enjoys getting out of the house doesn't mean they are GEO-Caching. We Hunt for the caches and the novices seldom fail on 1/1, if they Hunt for it. If you can't find a 1/1 then go with someone until you get a handle on it. A 0/1 will be found for no other reason than the hider didn't care enough to hide it and make the seeker Hunt for it or didn't know any better. A 0/1 cache is off the scale, too EASY, Lame and hurting the game. You got to at least be a GEOCACHER, who is someone who hunts for caches.

 

What comments has she made about finding them - does she care to hunt for them or just know where they are without exercising another thought in her head. Just for the record, where the cache is doesn't keep it from being LAME - it is Lame if it does not require you to Hunt for it. There may be lots of people out there that ENJOY Lame caches - That is not the point - it is a hunting game so we hunt for them because it is a hunting game. That is WHAT the game is.

 

Also I did not know disabled people did geocaching - I have no problem with special caches just for them to be able to get to them - but once they get there - the hunt is ON. Nope they don't get 0/1 either - they Hunt! We could all easily enjoy hunts set up for the disabled - but if it is way too easy it is not Geo-caching and should NOT be called that.

 

A 1/1 is not a lame cache if it is not WAY TOOOOOOOOOOO! Easy!

Edited April 16, 2008 by GPS-Hermit

[+TrailGators]

Exactly my point gustav129, thank you for pointing out yet another reason variety is what makes the hobby so much fun for EVERYONE.

I couldn't agree more! So hiding a cache under 100 lamp posts around town is not variety. ...

 

What about 100 different lamp posts?

That would be better.

 

I agree with the 0 difficulty rating someone mentioned earlier for the extremely common type.

Edited April 16, 2008 by TrailGators

[+Renegade Knight]

... If your girl friend can say in 10 seconds at an instant glance. - I KNOW for sure it's under that rock because it is the only possible place I see that anything in this entire world could be - she is not hunting! She knows where it is without hunting. It is a hunting game....

 

She knows it's there because she's hunting. Countless passer by's would miss it because they are not hunting.

The flaw in the logic is to think that just because we cachers are good enough to know where other cachers have hid a cache without much thought doesn't mean that a neophyte would look somewhere else.

 

You have become somewhat jaded when it comes tot the simpler caches. Yet those are exactly the caches that we wish newbies could go find to get started on. It keeps their spirits up.

 

Put another way. I'm planning a hunt. I've hiked the area, know the elk, know their habits. Then the day of the hunt I go, get in my spot overlooking where I know the elk will be at the time I know they will be there. I put the rifle up, look in the scope and there is an elk, exactly positioned for a perfect shot so I pull the trigger and bag my elk. Yes that was a hunt.

Edited April 16, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+Miragee]

Ok, I'll try this one again, I lost the network when I was waiting for it to post.

 

I save the 1/1 caches for when I'm out with my gf, who is handicapped. She had corrective surgery on her foot and ankle for a deformaty she has had since birth. She is just now learning to walk again. Without those in your face "supposedly lame" caches, the sport would be ruined for her before she even started.

The point to me with your girl friend would be whether or not she wants to play a game about hunting. If your girl friend can say in 10 seconds at an instant glance. - I KNOW for sure it's under that rock because it is the only possible place I see that anything in this entire world could be - she is not hunting! She knows where it is without hunting. It is a hunting game.

<snip>

It is . . .

 

I think we have a difference in perceptions here . . .

 

For me Geocaching is a "Finding" game. I like getting to the location and finding the cache. In order to "find" the cache I had to be "hunting" for it, but I don't want to hunt and search and search and hunt for an elusive container. If it has been a nice hike, I want to find the cache and enjoy the location. If I am driving around looking for 1/1's, I am happy to look ahead towards an obvious hiding spot and know that is probably where the cache is located. In fact, if I am travelilng, which is about the only time I ever look for urban-type hides, I deliberately filter out "creative" caches with a "Difficulty" of '2' or greater. I don't want to waste time "hunting" for a container. I want to find the cache, sign the log, and move on down the road.

 

No wonder we have a "failure to communicate" here . . .

[Mushtang]

For the 15 billionith time....Nobody is talking about getting rid of any caches. Comprende?

Yes, they are. At least two in this thread have already been mentioned that have specifically asked for it.

 

GPS-Hermit is coming very close to it again recently, saying that the caches on the very bottom of the difficulty scale are unacceptable and he wants to see them hidden better (higher difficulty).

 

The thread topic is Lame First Hides and how the OP wants hiders to do a better job of hiding a cache so they're not so easy for those that decide not to filter out the easy ones they don't want to look for. The discussion was way off topic for while as we got into methods of measuring how much fun a cache is for people... but that should really have been a separate thread.

 

GPS-Hermit has reclaimed his thread and his topic, and is trying to have all caches hidden to a minimum difficulty level that seems to be above 1.

[GPS-Hermit]

...I have never ever heard anyone in Bowling say "Gutter Balls are just his way of playing the game".

 

I've seen people bowl sober, drunk, with the gutter guards in (to get better side angle bounce). I've seen the ball tossed, chucked, hucked, pucked. I've seen it thrown granny style, wiht the eyes closed, open, backwards, laying down, sideways, with the wrong fingers in the holes, opposite handed, from the floor and not the wood. I've seen them fast, slow, medium, barely making it to the end of the alley. I've seen gutter balls, balls going back into the audience, and balls crossing lanes getting a strike for the other team.

 

Yes you try to hit the pins, and yes you try to find the cache. Other than that there is a lot of variation.

 

I have seen all that too and you're right it all happens but usually someone makes a correction to the error and the problem goes away for that person who probably had not intended the error in the 1st place. Forgive me for steering a newbie away from showing up drunk and dropping his ball in my lap. Based on what I find acceptable - all that happens and you may never be free from it but I steer the new ones as far away from it as possible.

[+Totem Clan]

... If your girl friend can say in 10 seconds at an instant glance. - I KNOW for sure it's under that rock because it is the only possible place I see that anything in this entire world could be - she is not hunting! She knows where it is without hunting. It is a hunting game....

 

She knows it's there because she's hunting. Countless passer by's would miss it because they are not hunting.

The flaw in the logic is to think that just because we cachers are good enough to know where other cachers have hid a cache without much thought doesn't mean that a neophyte would look somewhere else.

 

You have become somewhat jaded when it comes tot the simpler caches. Yet those are exactly the caches that we wish newbies could go find to get started on. It keeps their spirits up.

 

Put another way. I'm planning a hunt. I've hiked the area, know the elk, know their habits. Then the day of the hunt I go, get in my spot overlooking where I know the elk will be at the time I know they will be there. I put the rifle up, look in the scope and there is an elk, exactly positioned for a perfect shot so I pull the trigger and bag my elk. Yes that was a hunt.

I agree 100%.

 

Also along those same lines, there is always the trip to the cache.

To take the hunting metaphor one further... In sniper school we spent more time learning the creep than we spent on the range. You see getting the shot on target is the easiest part of the mission. Getting where you need to be and taking the shot without being detected and getting out again is the real challenge.

For some the hunt is more than just the find.

[+TrailGators]

... If your girl friend can say in 10 seconds at an instant glance. - I KNOW for sure it's under that rock because it is the only possible place I see that anything in this entire world could be - she is not hunting! She knows where it is without hunting. It is a hunting game....

She knows it's there because she's hunting. Countless passer by's would miss it because they are not hunting.

The flaw in the logic is to think that just because we cachers are good enough to know where other cachers have hid a cache without much thought doesn't mean that a neophyte would look somewhere else.

 

You have become somewhat jaded when it comes tot the simpler caches. Yet those are exactly the caches that we wish newbies could go find to get started on. It keeps their spirits up.

 

Put another way. I'm planning a hunt. I've hiked the area, know the elk, know their habits. Then the day of the hunt I go, get in my spot overlooking where I know the elk will be at the time I know they will be there. I put the rifle up, look in the scope and there is an elk, exactly positioned for a perfect shot so I pull the trigger and bag my elk. Yes that was a hunt.

Everyone calls geocaching hunting but it's nothing like hunting. It is a game of hide n' seek. If you enjoy hide n' seek then you will not enjoy finding caches that you can spot from 200 feet away. People that hide their first cache need to decide if they enjoy the hide n' seek aspect or if they want to put a logbook in a very obvious place for people to sign.

 

I agree with what Miragee said about preferring low difficulty caches on hikes. I'm not out there to spend an hour looking for a cache. I'm out there to enjoy a hike and later log my journey with photos on a few trailside caches. I don't do much urban caching anymore unless I'm sightseeing.

[GPS-Hermit]

For the 15 billionith time....Nobody is talking about getting rid of any caches. Comprende?

Yes, they are. At least two in this thread have already been mentioned that have specifically asked for it.

 

GPS-Hermit is coming very close to it again recently, saying that the caches on the very bottom of the difficulty scale are unacceptable and he wants to see them hidden better (higher difficulty).

 

The thread topic is Lame First Hides and how the OP wants hiders to do a better job of hiding a cache so they're not so easy for those that decide not to filter out the easy ones they don't want to look for. The discussion was way off topic for while as we got into methods of measuring how much fun a cache is for people... but that should really have been a separate thread.

 

GPS-Hermit has reclaimed his thread and his topic, and is trying to have all caches hidden to a minimum difficulty level that seems to be above 1.

It is really a combination of being what I say is below a 1 - a nothingness in difficulty in combination with a pointless location and what appears to be an unacceptably weak effort on the part of the hider.

I have done lots of acceptable 1/1 and understand their value - I just have encountered a number of them I can't even justify being in the game at all. Remember the Never Ending Story where the Nothing took over.

The logs are many but they don't say much and I felt bothered by the weak effort and truely was sorry I bothered with them.

 

I do agree it is about finding the cache and that is a great point - I do like to find them but only if there is at least the minimun effort needed. Not Nothing and good grief why here in this really negative nothing place of zero interest. I think we need to beef up what we call an easy cache and require something of the hider.

 

The point has been made it might be in plain sight and the hide is fairly obvious. But not totally obvious so much that you don't do any hunting at all and no location as well. I just think we can go for quality and still have a game where a novice will almost always find the hide. Hide 1/1 with some thought and reject some really boring locations where there is really honestly and truly nothing there. Trashy ones really baffle me alot.

[GPS-Hermit]

... If your girl friend can say in 10 seconds at an instant glance. - I KNOW for sure it's under that rock because it is the only possible place I see that anything in this entire world could be - she is not hunting! She knows where it is without hunting. It is a hunting game....

 

She knows it's there because she's hunting. Countless passer by's would miss it because they are not hunting.

The flaw in the logic is to think that just because we cachers are good enough to know where other cachers have hid a cache without much thought doesn't mean that a neophyte would look somewhere else.

 

You have become somewhat jaded when it comes tot the simpler caches. Yet those are exactly the caches that we wish newbies could go find to get started on. It keeps their spirits up.

 

Put another way. I'm planning a hunt. I've hiked the area, know the elk, know their habits. Then the day of the hunt I go, get in my spot overlooking where I know the elk will be at the time I know they will be there. I put the rifle up, look in the scope and there is an elk, exactly positioned for a perfect shot so I pull the trigger and bag my elk. Yes that was a hunt.

 

When you hiked the area and worked hard with many considerations and much effort to find the right spot - you finished the hunt. You weren't hunting the deer you were hunting the spot. I will bet you didn't have a way too easy time of choosing it either. If you knew the deer where coming for sure - you were not hunting. That was an execution because there was no search and little unknown. You could have shot the Dog after calling him because you have called him before and know what is going to happen. A way too easy hunt would be shooting a deer caught in a trap and there by having a way too easy pointless meaningless hunt you would probably share with no one, you would be so below standard it doesn't even count as a hunt at all.

Log: GOT it! TFTD

 

By the way - Please don't shoot the Dog! I'm sorry that was awful!

[+XopherN71]

This whole hunting/geocaching thing is getting a little off.

 

A cache can't taste very good. I don't care if you boil it, steam it, fry it or grille it... just not the same as good old meat. Ok, maybe on the grill with some seasoning and butter - but still, no comparison.

 

Anyway, I highly doubt very many of the folks who hide the 'lame caches' you speak so negatively of actually take the time to visit the forum. Kind of like a fart in the wind, don't you think? Sure it feels good to let it out, but there's really nothing going to come of it.

 

Seriously... I think the people that take the EXTRA time to visit the forum really want the best possible experience - don't you?

 

Have a good night!

Edited April 16, 2008 by XopherN71

[Clan Riffster]

If 10 people at an event rave about a cache the chances are that I'm probably going to like it.

That's been my experience as well. When I attend an event at an out of town location, I like to ask "What are the 'Must Do' caches in this area. Typically, the responses are quite lively, and, (so far), there have been concurrences between attendees. Folks that have attended the events I've gone to never seem to rave about film canisters plopped into the shrubbery of a big box store. You'd think if hordes of cachers loved them as much as the "lotsa folks log 'em" crowd seem to think, they'd be singing the praises of them everywhere.

 

TG, I'm glad that you, at least, were able to recognize that my "long log" theory was nothing more than an indicator. Kudos, Sir!

For those who maintain the belief that the "long log" theory portends to be a 100% reliable method of determining a cache's value, I'd say you either weren't paying attention or you are arguing solely to see yourself type.

My theory indicates only that a particular cache is likely to be enjoyed by me. I make no other claim. Would a cache with an average of 500 words be enjoyable to others? I have no idea. If I had a strong grasp of their preferences, I might be able to make a prediction, but even then, it would be sketchy.

 

You see, I happen to enjoy caches that typically generate longer logs than TNLNSL.

TG, I think you do too. For those who prefer caches that typically get TNLNSL, there is nothing wrong with that. You play your game, I'll play mine. Everybody's happy.

For those who believe in cache equity, (I.e; the soggy log film canister at the Burger King dumpster is every bit as good as the ammo can full of high end swag tucked under a remote waterfall), that's cool too. Again, everybody's happy. No worries.

The one thing I won't try to do, (because I think it's impossible), is to try and quantify what quality(s) about certain caches lead folks to generally leave longer logs. That's gonna be different for every cache, and for every cacher. The closest I can come to is to guess that the person(s) writing such long winded narratives had an adventure. Sometimes adventures leave you with a warm fuzzy feeling. Sometimes they leave you on the edge of your seat. The primary constant is that they are memorable.

 

I like memorable.

 

If you search the forums you can find dozens of quotes from people advocating a ban on micros, or nanos, or whatever they don't like.

Very true. But how many of those folks have ever been taken seriously? Seems like about once every couple months, someone will spike their entitlement meter and come in here stating that certain caches should go away. They always get shot down. Some, (like myself), utilize snarky ammunition, others utilize kinder, gentler methods. The results are the same. The person who wants to ban a particular cache either comes to the realization that banning any type of cache is a bad resolution to their dilemma, or they realize that they are not getting the answers they expected, and seek elsewhere.

 

I have never ever heard anyone in Bowling say "Gutter Balls are just his way of playing the game".

I can think of three people in here who might say that.

(Of course I got thrown out of a bowling alley in Korea for bowling overhand. But I was hitting the pins!)

[+TrailGators]

CR, you just gave me an idea. Maybe we should recommend to all new hiders to go out and find a bunch of local "must-do" caches before hiding their first cache. I have yet to do one lame "must-do" cache no matter where I've gone. Anyhow, this would give them some great examples.

[Mushtang]

What would you say if someone started a thread criticizing the super duper really hard caches... The true 5/5 caches that are just so hard it takes a couple of days, special equipment, a hard puzzle to solve, a difficult find to overcome, etc.?

 

Suppose they came in and said "Hey, there's NO reason to hide caches this hard. They're supposed to be FOUND people!! C'mon! We're only hiding them to begin with because the muggles would take them otherwise, we're not supposed to make them THIS hard to find!!! When you play hide and seek you expect to be able to find the person, so caches are also supposed to be findable."

 

Which of the following do you think your reply would honestly be like:

1) You're right, there really should be a rating of 6 or 7 for caches that hard.

 

2) Caches from now on should have a maximum difficulty of about 3 or 4. We're not calling for the existing ones to be removed.

 

3) I don't like those kinds of caches either. Nobody should. In fact, I can think of 3 people that will probably say it's okay for these caches to exist. Just because 1 person a year finds them doesn't mean that they actually enjoyed finding it!!! They obviously couldn't know how difficult it was until they found it.

 

4) I haven't met a single cacher at any event that has done one of these, therefore they must all not like them too.

 

or

 

5) If you don't want to find the really difficult caches, just filter them out with difficulty and terrain ratings.

[+Taoiseach]

I foiled one of Ottawa's ranking cachers on my very first one

Good for you! Multis can be a lot of fun! It sounds like you are off to an awesome start!

 

Thanks!

 

I like that one because it takes you to a couple of really nice spots in the city - The first of which being New Edinburgh Park by the end of the Rideau River (I obviously won't tell the other )

 

When you get to stage 1, you get a list of 5 possible locations for the final - They're all very nice spots - They're all ~a mile apart

 

It was great waiting for the FTF

[+TrailGators]

I foiled one of Ottawa's ranking cachers on my very first one

Good for you! Multis can be a lot of fun! It sounds like you are off to an awesome start!

 

Thanks!

 

I like that one because it takes you to a couple of really nice spots in the city - The first of which being New Edinburgh Park by the end of the Rideau River (I obviously won't tell the other )

 

When you get to stage 1, you get a list of 5 possible locations for the final - They're all very nice spots - They're all ~a mile apart

 

It was great waiting for the FTF

If I ever get up to your neck of the woods, I'll be sure to do that one!

[+Taoiseach]

E-mail me me know if you're ever coming, I'll give you a list of a few of my favourites

[+TrailGators]

What would you say if someone started a thread criticizing the super duper really hard caches... The true 5/5 caches that are just so hard it takes a couple of days, special equipment, a hard puzzle to solve, a difficult find to overcome, etc.?

 

Suppose they came in and said "Hey, there's NO reason to hide caches this hard. They're supposed to be FOUND people!! C'mon! We're only hiding them to begin with because the muggles would take them otherwise, we're not supposed to make them THIS hard to find!!! When you play hide and seek you expect to be able to find the person, so caches are also supposed to be findable."

 

Which of the following do you think your reply would honestly be like:

1) You're right, there really should be a rating of 6 or 7 for caches that hard.

 

2) Caches from now on should have a maximum difficulty of about 3 or 4. We're not calling for the existing ones to be removed.

 

3) I don't like those kinds of caches either. Nobody should. In fact, I can think of 3 people that will probably say it's okay for these caches to exist. Just because 1 person a year finds them doesn't mean that they actually enjoyed finding it!!! They obviously couldn't know how difficult it was until they found it.

 

4) I haven't met a single cacher at any event that has done one of these, therefore they must all not like them too.

 

or

 

5) If you don't want to find the really difficult caches, just filter them out with difficulty and terrain ratings.

My answer would honestly be #5. But that doesn't work for 1s because there is no physical limitation with 1s. So the trick is how to filter out just the 1s you won't enjoy and that is tough. So I have to filter out all urban 1s and all urban 1.5s too (difficulty). That's the breaks until a better filtering method comes along... Edited April 16, 2008 by TrailGators

[+sbell111]

What would you say if someone started a thread criticizing the super duper really hard caches... The true 5/5 caches that are just so hard it takes a couple of days, special equipment, a hard puzzle to solve, a difficult find to overcome, etc.?

 

Suppose they came in and said "Hey, there's NO reason to hide caches this hard. They're supposed to be FOUND people!! C'mon! We're only hiding them to begin with because the muggles would take them otherwise, we're not supposed to make them THIS hard to find!!! When you play hide and seek you expect to be able to find the person, so caches are also supposed to be findable."

 

Which of the following do you think your reply would honestly be like:

1) You're right, there really should be a rating of 6 or 7 for caches that hard.

 

2) Caches from now on should have a maximum difficulty of about 3 or 4. We're not calling for the existing ones to be removed.

 

3) I don't like those kinds of caches either. Nobody should. In fact, I can think of 3 people that will probably say it's okay for these caches to exist. Just because 1 person a year finds them doesn't mean that they actually enjoyed finding it!!! They obviously couldn't know how difficult it was until they found it.

 

4) I haven't met a single cacher at any event that has done one of these, therefore they must all not like them too.

 

or

 

5) If you don't want to find the really difficult caches, just filter them out with difficulty and terrain ratings.

My answer would honestly be #5. But that doesn't work for 1s because there is no physical limitation with 1s. So the trick is how to filter out just the 1s you won't enjoy and that is tough. So I have to filter out all urban 1s and all urban 1.5s too (difficulty). That's the breaks until a better filtering method comes along...

A method, by the way, which was actually discussed in this very thread.

[CoyoteRed]

If you go back and read the discussion of log length, you will note that there are plenty of reasons that individual cachers may or may not write long or short logs. Some of these reasons for long logs relate positively to cache quality, some relate negatively to cache quality, and some make no statement toward cache quality.

Thank you for re-capping. Recently even my forum time is short so it helps to have the wheat separated from the chaff.

 

I've gone back and scanned the posts about log length and it appears there are those who are operating on gut reaction and those who have actually done some thinking on the subject. Me, I've actually done some practical experiments. It works for me. You have much less basis on which to form an opinion.

 

My question is why would you pooh-pooh the idea without even trying it?

 

Don't get hung up on the length of individual logs or experiences. It's the average log length that is the indicator. Longer logs with negative comments on caches are much less common than positive ones. Rarer still are caches with a lot of negative comments. Given the value of the average log length and how well it can filter the least memorable caches out of a list, the rare few highly negative outliers would probably be fewer than the caches that simply don't meet one's tastes.

 

No rating system is perfect. I reject your reasoning for that alone any rating system is bad. (Yes, I do believe you said that a while back. Don't know if you still hold to that thinking.)

 

... The beauty of a log-based ratings scheme is the data is already there and folks don't have to do anything they're not already doing.

 

The drawback is if the scheme goes mainstream then folks will try to game the system.

What system?

 

You think that if people find out that CoyoteRed is choosing caches by average log length that they will start writing long logs for caches that they hate and tiny logs for caches that they love? Certainly, you don't believe that people are that interested in what you do.

Now, I have an excuse for missing part of the discussion as it was on a different page of posts and I'm only scanning the thread. You missed part that was in the post you quoted. I highlighted it for you. Now, if you think about what I said, hopefully, you'll understand.

[CoyoteRed]

What would you say if someone started a thread criticizing the super duper really hard caches... The true 5/5 caches that are just so hard it takes a couple of days, special equipment, a hard puzzle to solve, a difficult find to overcome, etc.?

 

Suppose they came in and said "Hey, there's NO reason to hide caches this hard. They're supposed to be FOUND people!! C'mon! We're only hiding them to begin with because the muggles would take them otherwise, we're not supposed to make them THIS hard to find!!! When you play hide and seek you expect to be able to find the person, so caches are also supposed to be findable."

...

5) If you don't want to find the really difficult caches, just filter them out with difficulty and terrain ratings.

Your analog breaks in that there is a way to filter out harder caches. There is no way available on this site to easily filter less memorable or enjoyed caches. That's what a rating system is for.

 

Give us a workable rating system and the analogy works great! Only want to find caches most folks will enjoy? Filter out the rest! Simple.

[+sbell111]

We can't seem to agree that first hiders as well as all hiders should strive for success. I thought this would be universal. I guess I was wrong...

I believe that what you are wrong about is that everyone should use your metric as to what makes a successful cache.

It's not my metric. It's the voice of the community. When you read the logs on your cache pages and almost every log says "TNLNSL" or "Found it" then IMHO you are not quite hitting the mark. Logs on our caches are the best feedback we have. If you want to ignore good information that your prerogative.

I've bolded the part that makes it your personal metric.

Let consider another way of looking at it thru my eyes. Someone asks you to break in a new Bowler - what would you tell them. Don't listen to these other folks - you just do it anyway you want to and if you are having fun - a gutter ball is where it's at Baby!. You don't have to ever score a single point just have fun and forget about what we are doing here.

 

Or you say the Object of the game is to knock down the pins and the way to do this is to try as hard as you can to roll the ball down the alley the very best you can.

 

I have never ever heard anyone in Bowling say "Gutter Balls are just his way of playing the game".

There are two types of bowling: competition and social. When in competition, the strike is the thing, baby. However, most of the time that we go bowling, it is not about racking up a high score. It's about being out with friends and having fun. Perhaps, it's also about pizza and beer, but mostly it's just about being out of the house and having some fun. Some people still work really hard at getting a huge score, but not everyone. The rest of us accidently throw a gutter ball and laugh about it.

 

Similarly, geocaching is not a competition. It's about being out of the house and having a little fun. Some people still strive to hide and find challenging caches, but the rest of us go with the flow.

... Why doesn't it bother you - that is the part I find so disappointing and is decreasing the quality of the game. It is a hunt and you don't even care about that part of it. "2. You need to hide it." Why doesn't it bother you that the purpose of this game is to do a find for something that is hidden and you don't care if it is in plain sight and actually requires no/little effort to do the find. ...

Certainly, you are aware that many people enjoy finding these easy peasy caches.

 

Different people like different things about the game. How many times must this be posted before people understand this basic fact?

... I said I used to love play hide n' seek with my little sister. It was fun until she kept hiding in the same closet. Then it got boring. I guess some people could open the same closet door a hundred times and never get bored. I've never understand that.... ...

Obviously, it was still fun for your sister. Perhaps, she was wanting something different out of the game than you were. You obviously wanted the game to be a difficult search for the other person whereas she wanted some attention and interaction with her big brother.

 

Go figure.

[+sbell111]

... The beauty of a log-based ratings scheme is the data is already there and folks don't have to do anything they're not already doing.

 

The drawback is if the scheme goes mainstream then folks will try to game the system.

What system?

 

You think that if people find out that CoyoteRed is choosing caches by average log length that they will start writing long logs for caches that they hate and tiny logs for caches that they love? Certainly, you don't believe that people are that interested in what you do.

Now, I have an excuse for missing part of the discussion as it was on a different page of posts and I'm only scanning the thread. You missed part that was in the post you quoted. I highlighted it for you. Now, if you think about what I said, hopefully, you'll understand.

I was tempted to just ignore your post because it is too much trouble to try to keep you up to speed when you choose to simply post and run, rather than actually read the thread to which you are posting. Still, I can't help but ask you to actually answer my question. I went back and looked at your referenced post and I have no clue how (or why) you think someone will 'game the system' if they realize that you pick caches based on the average log length. Edited April 16, 2008 by sbell111

[+sbell111]

What would you say if someone started a thread criticizing the super duper really hard caches... The true 5/5 caches that are just so hard it takes a couple of days, special equipment, a hard puzzle to solve, a difficult find to overcome, etc.?

 

Suppose they came in and said "Hey, there's NO reason to hide caches this hard. They're supposed to be FOUND people!! C'mon! We're only hiding them to begin with because the muggles would take them otherwise, we're not supposed to make them THIS hard to find!!! When you play hide and seek you expect to be able to find the person, so caches are also supposed to be findable."

...

5) If you don't want to find the really difficult caches, just filter them out with difficulty and terrain ratings.

Your analog breaks in that there is a way to filter out harder caches. There is no way available on this site to easily filter less memorable or enjoyed caches. That's what a rating system is for. ...

Actually, a method was mentioned in this very thread. Had you read the thread, you would have known that. Edited April 16, 2008 by sbell111